Honoring Tradition

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Here's an article that was written in 1997 by MCPON John Hagan. It's worth the read. The title "Honoring Tradition" says it all.

It's a navy article, but has the same value for all of us Coast Guard Chiefs.


http://www.usni.org/proceedings/Articles97/PROhagan.htm

[GMCM Bill Wells (Ret)]

Deane,

There was also an article in the Navy Times about the same time speaking to the problem that the navy was loosing its history and traditions.

Having served on three navy vessels in retirement, I'll have to agree with this.

An example, One evening while Med moored in Naples I went on deck to get some air. I noticed a blue light streaming from an open scuttle and went over for a look. I recall in the past the BM strikers would congregate in the Bosn Hole and make rope mats, fenders, practice fancy work, splices, and all those BM things.

No, these guys were playing video games. I aske the BMC and he said they don't do those things anymore. What a shame. Most couldn't tune their Bosn whistles either.

[ETC Brian Strattard]

Here's a question...

What would happen if back in the day (insert time period here) there was a video game system from today in the Bosn Hole??? Is it a difference in members, their interests, technology advances...other issues? What would be the result in the views from past and present CPOs???

Strat sends...

[MSTCS Jerald P. Motyka]

Bill, being able to play a Bosun's pipe is no longer required for Bosun's Mates to advance. Things change. Fancy work has never been required - and cutters have gone so far as to REFUSE to let their Bosun contingent on board to do any fancy-work - preferring to use contractors to wrap stanchions and provide welcome mats.

I can't see how it is a bad thing. Now that we no longer use Coastie man-hours to wrap strings around pipes, they can be used for other endeavors.

[MKCM Brett Ayer]

Things change.

Jerald,

That is a statement that we should all tattoo on the inside of our eyelids, so that in times of stress we can close our eyes and see that the world as we know it is not coming to an end, it is just changing, and for the most part, changing for the better.

Traditions are a servant of culture; culture should never be servant of tradition. For traditions to survive the test of time, they must serve the culture that practices them. As culture evolves, traditions must also evolve or risk being lost.

Tradition is often used as a motivation to resist change. It is often heard “We can’t do that, it’s not our tradition”. The ultimate conclusion of this line of thought is the loss of tradition, not the preservation of tradition. The best way to preserve traditions are to allow them to naturally evolve as needed by the culture that practices them.

An example of this are the family holiday traditions that we grew up with. Year after year we recreated the same conditions, whether it was the food we ate, the songs we sung, or the specific order of events. We took comfort in knowing that this is the way we would do things. Once we grew up and got married, we discovered that our spouse did not follow all of the same traditions, we could have attempted to force our old family traditions on our new spouse, but most of us choose to let the traditions evolve. We bring in a little from our old family, a little from our spouses family, and we create new traditions that are exclusively ours. To insist that our children follow exactly the same traditions as we did would only create hate and discontent and force a wedge between us that would serve no valid purpose.

So how does this affect the Coast Guard, and what do we do about it? We teach our traditions to each new generation, we acknowledge that not all traditions will be kept forever, and we work to develop new traditions that serve the needs of today’s Coast Guard. If we wish to preserve a specific tradition, we need to make it meaningful to the members of today’s Coast Guard. In the Marines, each and every member knows why NCOs wear red stripes on the legs of their dress uniform. It means something to them, and because of that, the red stripes are not going anywhere soon.

Fancy work is a fine seagoing tradition, and should be passed on to each new generation. Some will pick it up and carry it on to the future, others will not. But just ask yourself this: if PS2s were available to 18 year old sailors in 1835, what do you think they would spend their time doing?

Be Safe,

Brett

[GMCM Bill Wells (Ret)]

Jerald,

[quote] That is a statement that we should all tattoo on the inside of our eyelids, so that in times of stress we can close our eyes and see that the world as we know it is not coming to an end, it is just changing, and for the most part, changing for the better.

Using this logic, why do you have anchors on your buttons? Here's how it should go today. Those none sea going types have smooth buttons. Only those with long sea duty (not river or station duty) (not that one year before a school) get to wear the traditional buttons. The "crow" will also be removed from the insignia of those who are not sailors.

Traditions are a servant of culture; culture should never be servant of tradition. For traditions to survive the test of time, they must serve the culture that practices them. As culture evolves, traditions must also evolve or risk being lost.

Brett, reread you last sentence. If traditions evolve that means the original meaning has been lost. How do you separate culture from tradition? Our nation has a culture and tradition of free speech. Do you advocate changing this as well because times have changed?

Tradition is often used as a motivation to resist change. It is often heard “We can’t do that, it’s not our tradition”. The ultimate conclusion of this line of thought is the loss of tradition, not the preservation of tradition. The best way to preserve traditions are to allow them to naturally evolve as needed by the culture that practices them.

I know the "core values" thread has been trashed, but are not the core values billed as having their base in traditions that are still being practiced. If memory serves you have said this as well. Even Star Trek used side boys (officers) and an electronic boatswain's whistle.

Just how does one "preserve" a tradition by chaning it? You'll have to explain this one. As Spock would say, 'that is not logical.' It is the same as a doctor killing a patient to save him.

An example of this are the family holiday traditions that we grew up with. Year after year we recreated the same conditions, whether it was the food we ate, the songs we sung, or the specific order of events. We took comfort in knowing that this is the way we would do things. Once we grew up and got married, we discovered that our spouse did not follow all of the same traditions, we could have attempted to force our old family traditions on our new spouse, but most of us choose to let the traditions evolve.

I have a friend who is from Afganistan. She is a wonderful phyiscan and her husband is Roman Catholic. They manage to keep both cultures and traditions alive for their children.

It is not that you and your spouse do not follow the customs of the individual families but rather use those traditions to build your own traditions which your recognize with, "We bring in a little from our old family, a little from our spouses family, and we create new traditions that are exclusively ours. To insist that our children follow exactly the same traditions as we did would only create hate and discontent and force a wedge between us that would serve no valid purpose. "


However, individual or family traditions are not organizational traditions. The latter are the glue that binds an organization. In an organization you want people to follow the core traditions of previous generations. I disagree with you about creating hate. No, they actually provide security and a sense of belonging. Children especially need to be reassured of their place not only in the immeadiate family but that of the larger family unit. By your concept, the Coast Guard should no longer wear uniforms. Even Bender reached into the past for his "blues." He once stated, erroneously, the single breasted uniform was the "true" Coast Guard uniform. He seemed unaware that uniform was only worn by stewards and surfmen.

So how does this affect the Coast Guard, and what do we do about it? We teach our traditions to each new generation, we acknowledge that not all traditions will be kept forever, and we work to develop new traditions that serve the needs of today’s Coast Guard.

So, who is to decide what traditions to keep and what traditions to trash? Flogging and grog were done away with some 160 years ago ( I know, some still want the grog).

If we wish to preserve a specific tradition, we need to make it meaningful to the members of today’s Coast Guard. In the Marines, each and every member knows why NCOs wear red stripes on the legs of their dress uniform. It means something to them, and because of that, the red stripes are not going anywhere soon.

One Coast Guard tradition that seems to continue is the lack of a military character in the Service. This is one that should be canned.

Fancy work is a fine seagoing tradition, and should be passed on to each new generation. Some will pick it up and carry it on to the future, others will not. But just ask yourself this: if PS2s were available to 18 year old sailors in 1835, what do you think they would spend their time doing?

In 1835, there was no electricity on the cutters, well, a couple were hit by lightning. Besides in 1835, an 18-year old would most likely be classified as a "boy." The average age of seamen would be around 28 - 30 and since they stood port and starboard on six-hour shifts and would not have time for it. However, they did have time for crafts mostly while inport or at anchor. They were not allowed ashore that much and when they were they were doing what sailors have done for hundreds of years.

I am sure they would wonder what was the attraction of sitting like a potato playing an odd game on a screen.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Dang when did the Boatswains Pipe come out of the PBQs? I guess we can use an electronic version like the bugalers do.

Jerald, there is still pletny of fancy work around. Look at the 87's and older cutters, esp the black ones(no offense to white boat sailors, but I dont know much since I have never been UNDERWAY on one). I did quite a bit as a BMC/XPO aboard the PATOKA and then at every rate below. I taught myself though on long watches and have done my best to show others. It is becoming lost in the Guard though.

[MSTCS Jerald P. Motyka]

Considering the fantastic possibility that Star Trek has been based upon reality, I wonder how many years the Bosun's Whistle was computerized... hmmmm, sounds like a change of a tradition to me.

Master Chief Ayers made a great point: The tradition has to have meaning to the present generation. Some of what you (Bill) are calling traditions are merely styles of the day. Uniform items?? Please! We, as a military service, have a long tradition of changing our uniforms and uniform regulations on a regular basis. We wear this item for a decade, then change it for something else, then several years later we change it for something else.

Here's a great question: How long does it have to be done or used to become an official "Tradition"?? Then, how long do we keep it if it is in complete opposition to societal norms?

I recall several books on maritime history (sorry, I realized that you've made accusations that today's Coasties don't/can't read) I recall several books that somebody TOLD be about, that spoke very clearly about not having females on board, as they they irritated the gods of the sea. Only British men could become officers, because nobody else had the ability or acumen to rise to that level. Filipino men could only become stewards. Goats and sheep were brought on board along with kibble so the crew could have fresh meat a month or two after setting sail.

I also recall readi... being told of a book that spoke clearly about the long historical homosexual nature of crews of naval vessels, with officers taking liberties with the enlisted folk, and the enlisted folk finding solace with each other... and this book wasn't written with a "Let them serve" bias - it was an historical account of living conditions and life aboard ships.

So, traditions change? Personally, I hope so.

Your Afghani friend has changed tradition by your own post: They took a bit from one culture, added bits from the other, hit the "Mix" button on a blender and created a NEW family tradition. I won't even get into the cultural traditions of Afghanistan and what they call the "true" position and roles of women in society - and your female physician's refusal to follow them.

There are some traditions that people will find quaint and will want to follow. Even as an MST, I know how to tune and play my Bosun's Pipe. I had a great BM2 that passed on the tradition. I also used the fancywork that he taught me to make my own lanyard for it... another tradition that I found to be geekily cool.

Out of a non-rate section of ten or so over the time that I was on the cutter, I was the only one that picked those "traditions" up... the others finding them tedious and mind-numbingly boring.

However, how useful is it on today's cutters? I see a time that will come before I retire when it will die the same kind of death that seamen running sails died. It is a different time, a different era and we, as seamen, don't need to learn it anymore. Doing something because, "We've always done it that way" is a piss-poor reason to do it.

[MKCM Brett Ayer]

Here's a great question: How long does it have to be done or used to become an official "Tradition"?? Then, how long do we keep it if it is in complete opposition to societal norms?


Jerald,

Societal norms are irrelevant. I insist on the return of the racing stripe ascot for all female personnel, it’s deletion from the uniform regs was wholly and completely disrespectful to the tradition of tradition. Then again, its creation was too. Belay my last :)

Brett

[GMCM Bill Wells (Ret)]

Considering the fantastic possibility that Star Trek has been based upon reality, I wonder how many years the Bosun's Whistle was computerized... hmmmm, sounds like a change of a tradition to me.

You didn't read any of the books did you? Behind the science fiction are some very real things. This is why I ask people to read.

Master Chief Ayers made a great point: The tradition has to have meaning to the present generation. Some of what you (Bill) are calling traditions are merely styles of the day. Uniform items?? Please! We, as a military service, have a long tradition of changing our uniforms and uniform regulations on a regular basis. We wear this item for a decade, then change it for something else, then several years later we change it for something else.

A decade, really? No, you just told me so. The so-called "cracker jack" uniform was around for several hundred years and has been noted as the traditional uniform. However, the "Bender Blues" have been around for three decades, but no one calls them "traditional." Why not?

The reason many things do not have meaning is because they are not being taught because those responsible for teaching have been remiss in their duties.

Here's a great question: How long does it have to be done or used to become an official "Tradition"?? Then, how long do we keep it if it is in complete opposition to societal norms?

Not a great question, but two questions with the latter one making the assumption the first is correct. The first thing is you need to do is to define an "official tradition." You may start with reading Coast Guard regulations. Then move into the quasi-official traditions, then into the unofficial ones.

Your first "question" needs defining and clarification before it may be answered.

The second question implies that traditions are in "opposition to societal norms." Do you mean norms or mores? You need to show how traditional matters are in opposition. They may be complimentary. I am sure if were to visit the "Arab" sections of Detroit you may find that the traditions there are completely within "societal norms."

I recall several books on maritime history (sorry, I realized that you've made accusations that today's Coasties don't/can't read) I recall several books that somebody TOLD be about, that spoke very clearly about not having females on board, as they they irritated the gods of the sea. Only British men could become officers, because nobody else had the ability or acumen to rise to that level. Filipino men could only become stewards. Goats and sheep were brought on board along with kibble so the crew could have fresh meat a month or two after setting sail.

I also recall readi... being told of a book that spoke clearly about the long historical homosexual nature of crews of naval vessels, with officers taking liberties with the enlisted folk, and the enlisted folk finding solace with each other... and this book wasn't written with a "Let them serve" bias - it was an historical account of living conditions and life aboard ships.

I'd like to see the citations for these before I comment upon them.

So, traditions change? Personally, I hope so.

Are you writing that you would like to see the traditional nature of MSTs disappear?

Your Afghani friend has changed tradition by your own post: They took a bit from one culture, added bits from the other, hit the "Mix" button on a blender and created a NEW family tradition. I won't even get into the cultural traditions of Afghanistan and what they call the "true" position and roles of women in society - and your female physician's refusal to follow them.

******Comment removed by Admin after being deemed inappropriate and inflammatory*********

There are some traditions that people will find quaint and will want to follow. Even as an MST, I know how to tune and play my Bosun's Pipe. I had a great BM2 that passed on the tradition. I also used the fancywork that he taught me to make my own lanyard for it... another tradition that I found to be geekily cool.

But why are you calling for the dissolution of someone else's culture? Why not the traditions of your rating?

Out of a non-rate section of ten or so over the time that I was on the cutter, I was the only one that picked those "traditions" up... the others finding them tedious and mind-numbingly boring.

Once again we see a leader who did not do his job.

However, how useful is it on today's cutters? I see a time that will come before I retire when it will die the same kind of death that seamen running sails died. It is a different time, a different era and we, as seamen, don't need to learn it anymore. Doing something because, "We've always done it that way" is a piss-poor reason to do it.

In case you haven't noticed seamen are still "running sails." Besides you are not a seaman. A landsman perhaps but not a seaman. A seaman understands tradition and that it presents a connection to all generations. It must be difficult to be in a rating that has no traditions.


Here is my position. Tradition is the continuation from the past and is different from the tradition of culture. The latter is flexible and changes with society. This is the factor you refer to, but it is different from the former.

The latter changes to fit newer conditions and creates itself on top of the existing traditions and may come about in rapid succession. The former type forms the basis for social functions, status, privledge or property. The former also forms the basis for power as is seen in the Coast Guard.

The former is longer lasting and more purposeful than the latter type. So to call for an end to the base traditions of the Service removes the underpennings of all that individuals use. Even knowing how to create "MacNamara Lace" is a symbol of power because it is usually done by an experienced person.

Tradition, the history, validates precedence and continuity of the Service.

Get back to me when you have read up on the various types of traditions and don't forget those citations.

[GMCM Bill Wells (Ret)]

Jerald,

Societal norms are irrelevant. I insist on the return of the racing stripe ascot for all female personnel, it’s deletion from the uniform regs was wholly and completely disrespectful to the tradition of tradition. Then again, its creation was too. Belay my last :)



Brett, The ascot was created by people who think of tradition as you and Jerald. They wanted a distintive break from the past and got it. It did not matter if it was ugly and had no purpose. It was "new."

[BMC John Phillips III]

Fancy work is a fine seagoing tradition, and should be passed on to each new generation. Some will pick it up and carry it on to the future, others will not. But just ask yourself this: if PS2s were available to 18 year old sailors in 1835, what do you think they would spend their time doing?
Brett

Master Chief,

where as some here never cease to amaze with their negativity, you continually impress us all with your wisdom. As Master Chief Slesh said, "You are the voice of reason." Thank you for that.

I taught myself though on long watches and have done my best to show others. It is becoming lost in the Guard though.

Burt, I have never been a fan of fancy work, but it probably comes from my non-rate days where I was busting my hump cleaning, sanding and painting while a select few were busy doing it.



Deane, it seems as though the original intent of your post has been circumvented, a scenerio that seems to be playing out all too often these days....

anyway, after reading the article, I agreed with the Master Chief that wrote it.

Honoring our traditions is not about looking back at the wake—it is about not forgetting.

I also found this very interesting.

A few tentative remarks were made before General Walter Boomer, then Assistant Commandant of the Marine Corps, said, emphatically but without a trace of arrogance, "Marine Corps values are honor, courage, and commitment. Marines learn them in boot camp. They identify with them and remember them. We like them; they are working for us; and we are not going to change them!"

[MSTC Michael Schmidtke]

Good post JPIII! And I agree with JP and BMCM Slesh, MC Ayer, YOU, truely bring the voice of reason to this site. I'm not sure why anyone would feel the need to dispute this, but if someone does, then it must be the lack of something (maybe the lack of backing from others?, who knows??)??? But who am I to say??? I don't have an education nor can I think for myself and not to mention that I'm childish and a tattletale. Just a thought from the "uninformed and uneducated"!

[MSTCS Jerald P. Motyka]

Bill, I read history that is skewed toward the winner's point of view, and revisionist history that is skewed toward the non-winner's point of view. I consider science fiction to be a waste of time in most cases. I don't need parables, nor do I need rhetoric wrapped by fancy fantasy scenarios to learn something new. I like facts - hard, cold facts. I also like as much of the complete fact as possible, so I can make up my own mind rather than having my opinion handed to me by someone who claims to have no bias.

I've learned that those that scream that they have no bias the loudest, have the strongest held slants on reality. This is much like the line from Shakespear, "Thou dost protest overmuch." (and before you jump at the possibility that I misspelled his name, even William Shaekspar spelled his name at least four different ways)
__________________________

I have seen "traditions" that were formed within just a couple years of repeating them - my big question was, "Why?"

Why is XXX a tradition? Is it because it was done that way for years? Could it be because it was done nation/worldwide? Why is it being carried on to today's lifetime?

Unfortunately, for many traditions, the only answer to that is, "We learn it today because those before us learned it."

There are many here that can vouch for the fact that I don't buy that reason.

The problem is - that I don't believe you are articulating fully - isn't that the traditions are dying off, rather that the REASONS for KEEPING the traditions alive aren't properly understood and passed down for those new people coming in.

I've never felt that any tradition or more or norm is so sacrosanct that they can't or shouldn't be questioned. I question everything. The problem is that I rarely get good answers to the questions I ask about traditions.

I gave a clear example of a tradition that ended up in direct opposition to societal norms - and mores - in the restriction of women on sailing ships. Wasn't that clear enough an example? Could I throw in the restrictions on race? Oh, yeah, I did that too...
__________________________

I will work at finding the books of which I spoke.
__________________________

It is funny that you bring up the changing nature of MST's. The ONLY thing that is "traditionally" MST is change. Oh, yeah, that and only having a couple of underway billets.
__________________________

As a Gunner's Mate, how many cannons did you maintain? Hmmm, perhaps a tradition of "real" GM's was lost by poor leadership in not teaching you how to do it. Forget the fact that we stopped using cannons on warships and cutters some 60-80 years before you came in to the Guard, why didn't you learn? I am sure that there was an old-timer back in the 1960's that lamented the loss of the traditions...
___________________________

Outside of the Eagle, how many seamen are "running sails?" I learned basic knot-tying in boot camp - but nothing about sails or even nomenclature of sails. When I reported in to my cutter, I learned nothing about sails, though I did learn about fancywork. How many sails did you furl in your career, Bill?

Wasn't it rough dealing with tacking up a narrow river in the 'Nam with sails?
__________________________

Which, of course, brings me to "landsman".

I checked the latest billet manual, and it appears that even GM's have more billets on land that at sea. Mayhaps you should reevaluate your opinion of "landsmen".

Also, your definition of "seaman" is in need of an update as well. You said, "A seaman understands tradition and that it presents a connection to all generations." I posit that your definition should be modified as follows: "A seaman understand that history is the only thing that should be considered, as a ship's course is determined by her rudder-wash and track-line. It is unimportant to consider what might happen tomorrow, or even today, as an immobile and unwavering belief in what happened yesterday is what we need to tackle tomorrow."

Boy, it would truly suck if the world - or the bad guys - changed their tactics or developed better/faster/newer technologies or vessels. I recall reading that press gangs were used to man many of the early continental navy and the RCS.
_______________________

I am glad I understand your definition of tradition. A tradition influences society which changes tradition, but they all are established to keep power where it should be kept by right.

The only thing that I really disagree with is your assertion that there are traditions that are so sacred that they cannot be changed without destroying the world as we know it.

We changed the tradition of keeping live animals on ships. We changed the tradition of using sailing ships... women on board... non-whites in positions of power... the weaponry we use... even our uniforms. We are still here.

Oh, and something to ponder:
Even the long tradition of fancywork has been coopted and stolen. One of the reasons that the BM2 that taught me knew so much was that his wife was a home-economics teacher in high-school. He was working on teaching himself to do it when she asked him why he was doing macrame. After telling her that she was wrong, she showed her books - and taught him everything she knew.

Once he knew how to tie the various knots and do the weaving, he looked each item up so he knew the proper "maritime" term for it. All it takes are some books and some time - and even a novice can tie MacNamara Lace.

Tradition? The only tradition is that only old timers were TAUGHT how to tie it - so is it any wonder that only experienced sailors knew it?

[GMCM Bill Wells (Ret)]

[quote] where as some here never cease to amaze with their negativity, you continually impress us all with your wisdom. As Master Chief Slesh said, "You are the voice of reason." Thank you for that.

OK, tell us why it was the "voice of reason?"



Burt, I have never been a fan of fancy work, but it probably comes from my non-rate days where I was busting my hump cleaning, sanding and painting while a select few were busy doing it.

It is good to see that you agree with my post about one of the uses of tradition is to maintain Service authority and seniority. It could be that the others "doing it" had already earned their bones. What amazes me is you did not earn yours. You comment says more about you than the others.


Deane, it seems as though the original intent of your post has been circumvented, a scenerio that seems to be playing out all too often these days....


How is the topic being "circumvented?" Are you not attempting to "circumvent" the topic by placing off-topic ad hominen attacks?

I bet the Marine Corps general could not define the Marine Corps values either. They are part of the same system. If you knew anything about Marine Corps history you would understand why the general said the USMC values are just fine. This was alluded to within the story. Read it again and see if you can figure it out.

[GMCM Bill Wells (Ret)]

Good post JPIII! And I agree with JP and BMCM Slesh, MC Ayer, YOU, truely bring the voice of reason to this site. I'm not sure why anyone would feel the need to dispute this, but if someone does, then it must be the lack of something (maybe the lack of backing from others?, who knows??)??? But who am I to say??? I don't have an education nor can I think for myself and not to mention that I'm childish and a tattletale. Just a thought from the "uninformed and uneducated"!

Michael, Do you believe just because everyone agrees with a position that the person who states it is the "voice of reason?"

Why does a "voice of reason" require concensus of the masses?

[GMCM Bill Wells (Ret)]

Bill, I read history that is skewed toward the winner's point of view, and revisionist history that is skewed toward the non-winner's point of view. I consider science fiction to be a waste of time in most cases. I don't need parables, nor do I need rhetoric wrapped by fancy fantasy scenarios to learn something new. I like facts - hard, cold facts. I also like as much of the complete fact as possible, so I can make up my own mind rather than having my opinion handed to me by someone who claims to have no bias.

Your bias is noted. You may want to talk to Stuart about parables. He is good at making them up too.

It is sad that you do not read fiction. I suppose you consider Alex Haley's ROOTS was all lies as well. Well, most of it was, but there was some "fact" in it and think, he was CG CPO.

If you like hard cold facts then you should love my posts. I support my comments unlike you. You only provide us with weak memories of something you said you read somewhere at sometime. For example, you wrote,
" (and before you jump at the possibility that I misspelled his name, even William Shaekspar spelled his name at least four different ways)" Okay, he spelled it differently but by the standard conventions of the present (which you prefer) it is spelled properly "Shakespeare." The only time the other ways are proper is when they are used in context of a historical essay or when using middle English. Your comments are neither.


Why is XXX a tradition? Is it because it was done that way for years? Could it be because it was done nation/worldwide? Why is it being carried on to today's lifetime?

In what context are you using XXX? You should explain. However, this is cultural tradition. If you had read my post you would have understood this. You still do not understand the topic you are discussing. For someone who likes fact, you are very short on them. This is plain to read in your comments. You made the comment, "The problem is - that I don't believe you are articulating fully - isn't that the traditions are dying off, rather that the REASONS for KEEPING the traditions alive aren't properly understood and passed down for those new people coming in."

You are now arguing against yourself. You believe that traditions are important but not being "passed down." This is what I wrote earlier. In any case, you are incorrect. Traditions of authority and control are being passed along. This is why there are rate and rate structures in the Coast Guard. Why are there "petty officers" in the Coast Guard? Is this not an out of date term? Why was the idea of several years ago of having an "apprentice" and "journeyman" status placed instead of non-rates and petty officers?

You then contradict yourself, "I've never felt that any tradition or more[s] or norm is so sacrosanct that they can't or shouldn't be questioned. I question everything. The problem is that I rarely get good answers to the questions I ask about traditions. " I proved several good answers and you acknowledged them by using them as if they were your own ideas. You do not question everything. You also improperly tied traditions to social norms and mores.

You once again provide factual information for, "I gave a clear example of a tradition that ended up in direct opposition to societal norms - and mores - in the restriction of women on sailing ships. Wasn't that clear enough an example? Could I throw in the restrictions on race? Oh, yeah, I did that too... "

No, it was not clear because it was not true. There are many references to women serving aboard sailing vessels including three aboard HBMS Victory with Nelson at Trafalgar. I recomment the books Joan Druett to you. She is a fine author on the topic. (See: http://members.authorsguild.net/druettjo/ )

I will work at finding the books of which I spoke.

This should be done before you engage someone in a discussion.

As a Gunner's Mate, how many cannons did you maintain? Hmmm, perhaps a tradition of "real" GM's was lost by poor leadership in not teaching you how to do it. Forget the fact that we stopped using cannons on warships and cutters some 60-80 years before you came in to the Guard, why didn't you learn? I am sure that there was an old-timer back in the 1960's that lamented the loss of the traditions...

Actually, I personally maintained two six-pounders in my early days. Also you need to define a "cannon." I would bet you don't know the difference between a gun and a mount. What about mortars? The Coast Guard had those too.

There are still "warships" with cannon in active service today. There are even a couple civilian vessels as well. For someone who likes cold hard facts you don't seem to use many of them.


Outside of the Eagle, how many seamen are "running sails?" I learned basic knot-tying in boot camp - but nothing about sails or even nomenclature of sails. When I reported in to my cutter, I learned nothing about sails, though I did learn about fancywork. How many sails did you furl in your career, Bill?

We furled and unfurled sails in Vientam. However, this is a red herring. You did not learn the most basic of nautical terminology while aboard that unnamed cutter. Did you not learn which line was the life line? Was there no standing rigging? What about davits? There is a host of items that directly translate to traditional functions from the day of sail. You may even use some of the terms without knowing what they mean. "Taken aback," "By the board," "by and large." All terms from the sea. I bet you even "luffed" from time to time. You never got "three sheets to the wind?" If you use any of these and have no idea what they mean you are an amateur. Do you know what a capstan used to be called and why it was changed?

Which, of course, brings me to "landsman".

I checked the latest billet manual, and it appears that even GM's have more billets on land that at sea. Mayhaps you should reevaluate your opinion of "landsmen".

I am sure there are far more shore (not land -- using this word indicates your lack of expertise. The term is shore and that is one of those facts you like) billets for MSTs than GMs. I have never claimed otherwise. I know the sea billets are decreasing and believe it to be an improper policy. However, it will change. The MSSTs and such will go the way of the mid-1960s Coastal Forces and things will even out again.

Also, your definition of "seaman" is in need of an update as well. You said, [i]"A seaman understands tradition and that it presents a connection to all generations." I posit that your definition should be modified as follows: "A seaman understand[s] that history is the only thing that should be considered, as a ship's course is determined by her rudder-wash and track-line. It is unimportant to consider what might happen tomorrow, or even today, as an immobile and unwavering belief in what happened yesterday is what we need to tackle tomorrow."

It is very odd that you attempt to change my definition but at the same time contradict the "voice of reason." (BTW, From where did you copy your definition. I know you didn't think it up. We instructors know plagerism when we see it. ) The voice of reason stated, "Honoring our traditions is not about looking back at the wake—it is about not forgetting." So, it would be unreasonable to voice looking at the "rudder-wash." I thought the true mark of a helmsman could be better determined by looking back.

I recall reading that press gangs were used to man many of the early continental navy and the RCS.

I'd like to see your source for this.

I am glad I understand your definition of tradition. A tradition influences society which changes tradition, but they all are established to keep power where it should be kept by right.

The only thing that I really disagree with is your assertion that there are traditions that are so sacred that they cannot be changed without destroying the world as we know it.

We have people who wish to destroy our traditions, and legal, right to free speech.

We changed the tradition of keeping live animals on ships. We changed the tradition of using sailing ships... women on board... non-whites in positions of power... the weaponry we use... even our uniforms. We are still here.

Some nations still carry live animals for food. Women have always played a part in sea life at sea and "non-whites" (a very broad definition because some nations had no "white" people). I do not believe you have an in depth understanding of the sea culture nor its traditions.

Even the long tradition of fancywork has been coopted and stolen. One of the reasons that the BM2 that taught me knew so much was that his wife was a home-economics teacher in high-school. He was working on teaching himself to do it when she asked him why he was doing macrame. After telling her that she was wrong, she showed her books - and taught him everything she knew.

No one has ever stated that artwork from knots was the sole ownership of sailors. If you ever get to Portugal, go to the fishing villages and look that the lace they produce. It is beautiful work and done by the wives of the fishermen.

Once he knew how to tie the various knots and do the weaving, he looked each item up so he knew the proper "maritime" term for it. All it takes are some books and some time - and even a novice can tie MacNamara Lace.

Yep, it is a learned skill, however, what is the context of it? Do they take the time to do it properly so it fits the windows of a boat? That it hangs just so? Has it been washed and bleached properly?

Tradition? The only tradition is that only old timers were TAUGHT how to tie it - so is it any wonder that only experienced sailors knew it?

This is not correct. It could be the younger folks showed no interest in learning. The old timers, as all leaders should, put their time into people who show initiative and interest. They rest will complain they are not given a chance but this is not true. They have not expressed the right attitude to being included. The BMs I knew just let the uninterested chip paint.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Seems pretty simple to me....

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
tra·di·tion /trəˈdɪʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[truh-dish-uhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun

1. the handing down of statements, beliefs, legends, customs, information, etc., from generation to generation, esp. by word of mouth or by practice: a story that has come down to us by popular tradition.
2. something that is handed down: the traditions of the Eskimos.
3. a long-established or inherited way of thinking or acting: The rebellious students wanted to break with tradition.
4. a continuing pattern of culture beliefs or practices.
5. a customary or characteristic method or manner: The winner took a victory lap in the usual track tradition.

I think if you have to ask what tradition is, you probably wouldn't understand it if I tried to explane it to you...

Wray... :cool:

[GMCM Bill Wells (Ret)]

"
I think if you have to ask what tradition is, you probably wouldn't understand it if I tried to explane it to you..."

Watch out Wray, you will soon be called the voice of reason.

[BMC John Phillips III]

Quote:
OK, tell us why it was the "voice of reason?"

Look at me I'm Sandra Dee...



It is good to see that you agree with my post about one of the uses of tradition is to maintain Service authority and seniority. It could be that the others "doing it" had already earned their bones. What amazes me is you did not earn yours. You comment says more about you than the others.

Go Greased Lightning you're burning up the quarter a mile!



How is the topic being "circumvented?" Are you not attempting to "circumvent" the topic by placing off-topic ad hominen attacks?

Greased lightning, go greased lightning!



I bet the Marine Corps general could not define the Marine Corps values either. They are part of the same system. If you knew anything about Marine Corps history you would understand why the general said the USMC values are just fine. This was alluded to within the story. Read it again and see if you can figure it out.

Beauty School drop out, beauty school drop out.

[MSTC Shad Hudgins]

Seems pretty simple to me....

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
tra·di·tion

1. the handing down of statements, beliefs, legends, customs, information, etc., from generation to generation, esp. by word of mouth or by practice: a story that has come down to us by popular tradition.

I think if you have to ask what tradition is, you probably wouldn't understand it if I tried to explane it to you...

Wray... :cool:

Perhaps this is the driving reasons that traditions do change from their original design.

[GMCM Bill Wells (Ret)]

John P. III,

Off your meds again? Is this the serious debate you enjoin?

[GMCM Bill Wells (Ret)]

Perhaps this is the driving reasons that traditions do change from their original design.

Shad, Many "traditions" become corrupted because people don't know what they are or their purpose. Some also confuse tradition for ritual. For example, the CCTI came about because some did not understand the origin of such ceremonies. As explained early, creating the CCTI was also to impose the power of a few over the many. Considering that the tradition was lost and no one could tell people what the CCTI was about, many lost interest. The Coast Guard took the tradition out and replaced it with a form of ritual including the hunting ritual.

Just how the ritual of the CCTI was supposed to prepare people is something I do not understand. If the person was not prepared to be a CPO before they may never be.

[BMC John Phillips III]

John P. III,

Off your meds again? Is this the serious debate you enjoin?

It's funny you mention medicine, judging by your shortest response ever....you obviously don't like the taste of your own.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Here's an article that was written in 1997 by MCPON John Hagan. It's worth the read. The title "Honoring Tradition" says it all.

It's a navy article, but has the same value for all of us Coast Guard Chiefs.


http://www.usni.org/proceedings/Articles97/PROhagan.htm


This thread has somehow gotten off course...Here's an attempt to get it back on track.

[GMCM Bill Wells (Ret)]

This thread has somehow gotten off course...Here's an attempt to get it back on track.

I disgree. The article as you noted had connection to the Coast Guard and all the posts (except John Phillip III) have stayed on topic -- more or less.

I appears many in the active duty Coast Guard don't know their traditions and customs. They do not seem to understand why they are important.

Here is another article about Navy Traditions.
James P. Nichols (Capt. USN), "Navy had a rich history -- let's talk about it." Navy Times, March 24, 1997, 29.

Capt. Nichols notes, "The story (the tradition) reinforces the "social architecture' of the Navy." He referenced a book that held that the "social architecture" is defined as "the norms and values that shape behavior in any organization." So, if the Coast Guard has no traditions then it has no norms and values.

He wrote, "It is the responsiblity of leadership to keep the Navy's story vibrant and meaningful." I believe I have expressed these same sentiments for the Coast Guard.

[MSTCS Dennis Noble (Ret.)]

I have been fighting with a manuscript and joined this discussion a little late, so hope I am not putting it off track.

Jerald,

Professional historians, at times, do use fiction in their research. One of the most intellectual historian I know (Dr. Earl Hess) said about using fiction--I will paraphrase because it was too long ago--that fiction writers can give a historian a "feel" for the times they and the historian are trying to write about. I shocked my colleagues in grad school when I told them my idea for my dissertation came from a novel, The Sand Pebbles by Richard McKenna--a retired USN Chief, by the way. Since that time, other historians have recognized the value of this particular fictional work if you want a feel for the PRC during the Republican Period. As long as you tell a reader that you are using material from a novel, I, and others, believe this is acceptable. Of course, this does not mean that every fictional work should be cited. Like historians, there are good writers of fiction, and bad writers of fiction. (My dissertation was on the U.S. military in China from 1901-1937. I wanted to do something on the USCG, but my dissertation director said anything on the USCG is local history and professional historians do not do local history. My director was led into this belief by the--dare I say it--the tradition of the USCG not to inform the public of what they do.)

History is more than just "facts," but I will not take up space and get into that can of worms.

Jerald, I would be interested in the historians who you view as revisionist--I am not arguing. The definition of revisionist changes and I like to see who people think are revisionist. You can reply to this off line, if you wish.

I will now go back to fighting with my $#@*% manuscript and leave everyone alone.