Do we secretly hope that our leaders will fail?

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

During our discussion of "leadership and arrogance" someone brought up the idea that arrogance will cause your subordinates to hope that you fail.

I wonder if that is true regardless of arrogance. Do we sometimes secretly hope that our leaders will fail?

I've always said that the worse job in the CG is being my boss. I'll find fault with anyone in that position. Mainly because I'm looking for it. It's a comfort for me to know that my boss makes mistakes, and it allows me to believe that I'm a better leader than him/her because I wouldn't have made the same mistake.

I'm not proud of this tendency, but I bet I'm not alone.

And, if I'm not alone, what does that say about the dynamics of leadership and followership? Do we sometimes set up our leaders for failure? Do our leaders invite this type of criticism by their decisions to be leaders?

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I don't know if I actually hope that they fail, but there is the comfort in knowing that I am often called on to correct they mistakes and oversights when they do. I think that we all say at some point , that given the same circumstances we would have done things differently than they had. Hind sight is 20/20 and those on the outside can always second guess the mistakes of what those on the inside did with the information that was available to them at the time that they made their decision.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Dennis said...Do our leaders invite this type of criticism by their decisions to be leaders?

YES. We will always be second guessed. We will always second guess others. Someone will always make a different decision than ours, if able. We would make a different decision than others, if able. That's human nature.

[BMC Kerry Wagoner]

ALL leaders fail. We are human. The problem arises when a leader either does not admit he/she fails or believes that when it happens, it is not due to anything they may have or have not done.

A good leader is one that admits when they fail. Maybe not publically or openly to everyone, but they do admit their failures.

As for people in general looking and waiting for their leaders to fail. I hope that this is not a general trait in our service. However, I have seen in the past certain people with this trait. As leaders we have to strive to overcome those few who choose to have this trait and win them over with leading by example and other well proven paths of leadership.

[OSCS Janet Ferritto]

I would say that about 25% of the personalities in the Coast Guard "secretly hope that their leader will fail." These personalities are typically well known amongst a group and they are perceived as the ones who fight their way to the top by pointing out failures.

I also believe that 25% "secretly hope that their leader will succeed". These personalities typically work through quiet persuasion and concensus to insure that everyone succeeds. These personalities tend to quietly sail up the ladder. These people try to hold everyone up.

Perhaps even 25% more do not have any hopes either way. They are just floating along, never being first, never being last and never volunteering. These personalities tend to climb the ladder slowly. They just want to be left alone. They are the ones that typically know more about the history of the unit.

Then there are about 25% that are not invested in the Coast Guard at all. They are the ones that don't last long. We all know who they are. Good riddance.

Of course, this is all conjecture but I can't say that any personality is better than another. Trying to compare personalities is like comparing apples with oranges. I will say, however, that we need all types of personalities in order to keep a "big picture" on what needs to be done. We need those that point out failures, those that point out successes, those that are not out for much and those that get out to make way for better people.

The workplace is truly a study in personalities and social dynamics and it's all good.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

So, which are you, Janet?

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I have thought about this thread a little longer and would like to add that there is a difference between a leader and one placed in a leadership position. For those self serving, self centered, self righteous people that are placed in a leadership position ?...yes I have hoped that they would fail, both publicly and privately. I have expressed that desire to them and those around them. Sometimes, failure is the only thing that can bring them back to earth. I would say something before their actions hurt anyone, but my objections have been overruled in the past. And the failures were made sweeter by my silent smirks, which always translate into "I tried to tell you."
As for leaders ? I think that even their failures were actions made through the best of intentions.

[OSCS Janet Ferritto]

To Dennis,

To answer your question about which personality traits match what I show the world, I would rather keep you guessing. Thanks for asking though.

[MCPO Bob Brayman]

I would hope that not too many folks would want to see their leaders fail, whether it's secretly or not. Because if that thought is pervasive enough, then someone is getting hurt or killed in our line of work. I look at part of my job, both as a professional Chief / CGman and a human being is to help keep the mission focused which means sometimes supporting people I don't personally like because all my shipmates are depending on me to carry on despite the bs from the next levels of leadership. If we see it we should squash it...because it can and has killed folks before us.

I illustrate that very concept by the charge I place on all the E-7's BEFORE I give them my words of wisdom by having them watch the movie U571. One of the scenes in that movie depict this very thread and the Chief handles it like a Chief should....you want to know how...watch the movie.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

So, it doesn't appear that anyone else has, or wants to admit, to this tendency. So be it. I guess I'll have to consider myself deficient and alone.

[MCPO Bob Brayman]

I didn't say that I've never thought about it, however, my values and conscience is a wee bit bigger than my thoughts. We all have thoughts that are on the nasty side from time to time, its what you do with them that separates us from those who can't control themselves.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Dennis, I don't know if you've stopped reading my replies....but you're only alone if you want to be. And the others must be agreeing with you, and sharing those feelinings if they're not going to post rebuttals.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

I did read them, Stu. It sounded to me like you were qualifying your remarks. My point was that it didn't matter who my boss is. I'm going to have that nasty little tendency no matter what.

But, if you'd like me to include you in my circle of deficiency, consider it done. You are now officially deficient in character.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I still agree with Deane that its human nature to second guess or look for faults in others. I think any deficiency in character can be compensated by honesty. My flaws are many, after all, I am human, but as long as I remain honest with myself and others, I can live with that. You have admitted to having a tendency no one else seems to want to admit to having, either to us or themselves. You are an honest human being and I will stand proudly in your circle of deficiency.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Stu...Dennis wouldn't dare stop reading your posts, he can't stir the pot without them!

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

The honest truth is...we need more people stirring the pot.....only still water stagnates.

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

I had one CO that I wanted to see fail. And eventually he did. Unfortunatly, it was after I requested and recieved a short tour. He did it to himself though. Otherwise, I have busted my butt to ensure that those above and below me succeed. If they do, i consider it in part to my contribution. I hope that those who work for me will give me the same courtesy. IF my subordinates do well, it reflects on me. I don't "give" them anything, other than support. They have to earn it. If your leader fails, where does that leave you? If you give them the same support that you want them to give you, there is nothing that you cant do.
Just my thought.

Jim

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Yes but you can't give them something that they don't want. I have worked for people who only wanted your blind, unquestioning obedience. No matter how inane their suggestions, they wanted you to smile and say Aye Aye! Never dare question their reasoning or show them where they were violating their own policy, simply do as I say and do it now. So when they failed, as I thought they would, and hoped they would, I took no responsibility in a failure I tried to prevent. In time I stopped trying to assist them because I was assured many times previously that my assistance was neither required nor welcomed. Their failures continued and so did my smirks. (see above thread for translation.)

[BMC John Phillips III]

Anyone who wants to see their leaders fail is as stated "deficient in character". I have never worked for anyone I wanted to see fail. That is not to say that there have been a few that have failed and I thought to myself, well, they should have seen that one coming. I have a few examples,

I was a young SNBM and I had a psycho BM3 (his nickname at the unit was "Multiple Monte" as in multiple personalities) anyway, I always did what I had to do to ensure we completed the mission safely and as effectively as possible. One time he was trying to teach me (show off) his knowledge of the area and stated, from here to there is "all good water" :p Well, I didn't know any better, but I did find it very amusing when he ran hard aground in all that good water.

At another unit, I had a senior Petty Officer that was CDS, he was another one of your classic well hated guys. He just had a knack for pissing everyone off, including me from time to time. Well I used to run crane operator for him quite a bit. I can't tell you how many times I kept him from doing some serious damage. The funny thing is how irrate he would get when he would give a signal and I would not perform it. Then I point out why and he wasn't the least bit grateful. As tempted as I always was to see him fail, I could never be a part of it, or not help stop him if I could.

So I guess what I am trying to say is if you are in a supporting role (and I am pretty sure every one of us is), you should never hope that your leaders fail. If you do hope your leaders fail, maybe you are insecure in your own abilities to lead.

Perhaps we should start a new thread called, "when was the last time you failed as a leader?"

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

Good for you, John. Wish I was more like you.

I am absolutely insecure in my leadership abilities. I agonize over the decisions that affect people's lives, and constantly scrutinize the one's that affect my own reputation. I make the decisions, but they cost me in gray hair.

I'm not proud of tendency to hope that my leaders fail. But, by recognizing that it's there, I can mitigate its effect. That's the only thing that allows me to stay on the same playing field as guys like you.

[BMC John Phillips III]

Senior,

I hope you didn't take any offense from any of my remarks. We all have our different styles of leadership and different experiences which causes us all to be different. That's what makes us so great! I also have to say I am flattered that you put you and I on the same playing field, considering where you are in your career and the things you have done. In reading most of your posts, I would say you have an interesting outlook on things to say the least. Some might even say "controversial" ;). For the most part I think that is a good thing. It certainly starts some heated debates and anyone who knows me knows that I am always up for a good debate.

I didn't say anything in my post about the leaders that are so horrible, that you hope they fail, if not for any other reason than to get them out of the position. However, I think the Coast Guard as a whole, doesn't have that many of those types. I have yet to encounter any, but have heard of a few. So if you are dealing with those types you have my sympathies.

One question in my mind and this would probably come up if we started that other thread I mentioned, is how many leaders are out there that have failed and because of their position, don't even realize when they do fail? Kind of like the old adage, "noone wants to tell the Emporer he's not wearing any clothes." This can be especially true for some of the crusty old salts that noone wants to tell them they are wrong.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

No offense taken. And, I haven't had bad bosses. In fact, overall, I'd say they have been pretty good. That hasn't stopped me from harboring those unscrupulous hopes. It's not about them. It's about me. I just didn't realize there were so few like me.

[MKCS Paul Miller]

Yes, I do believe that all have at one time or another hoped that their supervisor will "Fail". "Knowledge is Power", the more I know and the less you know, the stronger/better I am, and the better I look. We all and mostly only with the JO's enjoy the fact that we know more about the CG, Our Job, and life in general than they do. Knowing if and when they fail, they can and should come to us ("The Chief") to get that oh so needed guidance.

From the Gestalt Theorem, we get that ever so loved term "Synergy". The whole is greater than the sum of all it's parts. If we would simply pass information (from our vast storehouse of knowledge) up to our supervisors, this would allow them the opportunity to make the correct decision and not fail. Will they probably take the credit for already knowing that? Yea, but your peers & subordinates will see what you have done and you will gain their respect (which I believe is worth more).

"Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups. Just a few harmless flakes working together can create an avalanche of destruction. :D

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

Welcome back, Paul.