The CCTI

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

I know it is only a matter of time before this topic is broached. May as well be now. There are a number of un-initiated chief's registered on this forum. I'd like to open a dialogue as to 1) why they/you remain un-inititated, 2) whether there is still value in the CCTI, 3) what can be gained or lost by participating or not participating in the CCTI.

I have some strong opinions, and I'll express more of my own views later in the thread. However, to start off with, I believe that the initiated chiefs have done a lousy job of selling the idea to the junior paygrades. Let's face it, if your not looking forward to being an initiated chief early on in your career, you are not going to warm up to the idea when you pin on those anchors.

[ITC Raley]

The question allot of un-initiated Chief's may have, is what do I gain by being initiated?
I went through it, and I would do it again. The Chiefs that ran it, made it humbling, hard, easy, a learning experience, and at the dinner a very memorable experience.
I think some traditions are worth preserving and the CCTI is one of them.
But maybe there needs to be set standards across the board so all initiates can have similar experiences.
You cant please everyone, so there will still be those folks who think it's a big waste of time.

Just my 2cents

Damon

[MKCS Paul Miller]

I must agree that the CCTI has the potential to be the be the single greatest learning and enjoyment opportunity available. I was initiated Fall '98 U/W in Alaska on a 378'. :eek: It is our responsibiliity to express to each initiate that the sole purpose of the "Charge Book" is for learning about what a "Chief" is and where / when it started. The "Charge Sheets" are for obtaining valuable learning experience advice from those who have gone before and tried and failed and wish for you to not have to reinvent the wheel and make the same mistakes that hey did. But rather move on from that point making each situation better. If the Masters and Journeymen do not teach the Apprentices "Cause & Effects", then how can the Apprentices be expected to become proficient. Our "Initiations" should be choreographed just so, to provide maximum learning with memorable enjoyment. Thought needs to be put in, to decide, will what we are going to do, be positive and profitable? Will it build this new initiate up, or tear them down? I think that those who opt not to go through this process, rob themselves of an immense learning opportunity that will profit them gratly in the years to come, when they become faced with situations that could have been answered here. There is no such thing as a stupid question. Except when you get down in the field and are faced with a situation that could have easily been asnwered by those who have gone before, and you say "Man that was Stupid, I should have asked". KEEP IT, But let's just make it better. :rolleyes:

[MKC Art Bailly (ret)]

I went thru the CCTI in Nov 2004 and found it to be mostly a good experience. Is there things I would like to see changed? Absolutely. But over all, I enjoyed the majority of the initiation. I don’t want to go into specifics on what happens during the initiation but if we made a few changes and encouraged the new E-7’s to go thru the CCTI I think we’d have a stronger chiefs community. I was surprised about some of the things involved in the experienced. I thought the pracs that we had to have signed should be required for all chiefs weather they go thru the initiation or not. I would go thru it again. I learned a lot and made new friends. On of the most beneficial parts of the initiations was the camaraderie and friendships that my fellow E-7’s and I developed while working together to complete our tasks. For those of you who haven’t gone thru the CCTI or are about to in the near future it is well worth it. It’s more than an Initiation it is a learning experience a lot of it should be a requirement for you to be a Chief.

[DCCS Keith Wilbee]

Man I really dont want to hold back on this issue, but Im going to. I have entered into a sacred brotherhood. Since I made the decision to stay in the CG at eight years, I looked forward to that day. I guess im a little traditional by heart. I cant for the life of me understand how some people decide not to do this. Making Chief is the pinnacle of ones career, why they would decide not to go through I just cant understand it. Talk about having pride in something, just knowing that I had made it gave me feelings of pride and self accomplishment. And personal satisfaction. I so enjoy getting together with my brothers and doing community projects and the like. Coming together and learning from others experience, and not having to go at it alone.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

I know E-7s that feel it was just another promotion. For some reason they can't see the transition from petty officer to chief as something more. The initiation and the days preceeding it are designed to install much of that understanding, but as I wrote before, we are doing a lousy job of instilling the desire to become a chief in our junior personnel. Either we are setting terrible examples, or we are not allowing the junior people that "glimpse" of becoming a chief that I remember seeing.

Maybe we've become too secretive. Or, maybe we've diluted the experience so much that none of us really care anymore. In any event, a meaningful rite of passage is becoming extinct and the only people that can save it is us.

I'd still like to hear from the uninitiated chiefs. You all were brave enough to forgo the process, aren't you brave enough to talk about why????

[BMCM Deane Smith]

I'm of the belief that the day you are "Pinned on" at the conclusion of the CCTI should be the first day that you have worn the anchors. In other words, E-6 above the cutoff for advancement to E-7 would go through the CCTI and would be frocked to E-7 upon completion. If the day they are pinned is the first time they have ever worn the anchor and from that day forward is the first time they are ever called "Chief", I think our chief corps would be a prouder, stronger group.

I do realize that this would mean that cutoffs might have to be done differently, but aren’t we to a point that we can accommodate this? I think so. Some E-7’s may slip through the cracks (i.e. late year cutoffs, etc) and not get to complete a CCTI prior to advancement, but the reality is that it shouldn’t affect many. Almost all new E-7’s wait several months as it is. The MCPOCG has directed us to hold CCTI’s whenever needed, so why not get our E-6 above the cut done before they make it?

Thoughts??

[DCC Mitchell Penneau]

First I don't have to justify my decision to anyone, it was mine to make and I stand by it, as for not being brave enough to reply, that is a very petty thing to say. Insinuating someone is not brave because they have nothing to say on the subject is wrong minded as well as childish. Going through CCTI is a tradition, but if you do not respect or trust those that are giving the initiation then there is no reason to do so, beside I know who and what I am ,I am a CHIEF PETTY OFFICER in The United Stats Coast Guard, and have nothing to prove to you or anyone but myself and my command.

[MKCS Paul Miller]

Boats, That almost makes sense. You can't use "Common Sense" in the military, you should know that by now. But Really. I think you may be on to something. However, being able to initiate the PCPO in a timely manner so as not to conduct it too soon, will take quite the intuitive planner. More often now than before, PCPO's are being frocked and sent to a critical fill "Chief" billet :eek: , not given the opportunity to go through the initiation prior to arriving. This tends to give way to the individual not wanting to go through the events afterwards, "I've been a "Chief" for a while now, why go through that"? If we can give a person the anchors and let subordinates call them "Chief" before they are promoted by HQ, then why can't we initiate them before HQ promotes them? I think your on the right track Boats. :)

[DCCS Keith Wilbee]

So DCC Penneau your saying you didnt go through because you didnt trust and respect the chiefs that were going to initiate you?

[MKCS Paul Miller]

DCC Penneau, Hey easy guy. OK, you chose (decided) not to go through the "Chief's Initiation". That was your choice to make. :p If the system is broke / not working porperly / or otherwise an undesireable event, then explain why, and let's get it fixed. Not using a piece of equipment onboard ship, because it is broke, then not doing anything to fix it, is not acceptable, it's not being the "Chief". A "Chief" takes the initiative to make things happen, the initative to fix that which is broke, the initiative to make desireable that which is undesireable. If you had / have some issues about the process that you don't like, let's have the "Unvarnished Truth". "Give it to us with the bark on".
"Let's Make Some Smoke".

[OSCS John Clinton]

First I don't have to justify my decision to anyone, it was mine to make and I stand by it, as for not being brave enough to reply, that is a very petty thing to say. Insinuating someone is not brave because they have nothing to say on the subject is wrong minded as well as childish. Going through CCTI is a tradition, but if you do not respect or trust those that are giving the initiation then there is no reason to do so, beside I know who and what I am ,I am a CHIEF PETTY OFFICER in The United Stats Coast Guard, and have nothing to prove to you or anyone but myself and my command.

You know, I really don't know how to respond. You mention that going through CCTI is a tradition. Yup, is sure is and it's very important. I'm also sorry for you that you don't trust or respect the members of your Chief's mess that would conduct your CCTI. If you gave them that very reason as to why you did not go thru CCTI, do you think they are going to have respect or trust in you? You obviously have some fences to mend within your mess.

I don't agree with a few things that go on during a CCTI, but everything that happens has lessons and meaning that you need to understand. You undoubtably worked real hard learning your rate, passed a test, put on a brand new spanking set of collar devices, got a new name to be called at work and a few extra bucks in your pocket every two weeks. You do still have a thing or two left to learn about being a Chief.

[DCC Mitchell Penneau]

So DCC Penneau your saying you didnt go through because you didnt trust and respect the chiefs that were going to initiate you?
Yes that is correct.

If the system is broke / not working porperly / or otherwise an undesireable event, then explain why, and let's get it fixed.
It is fixed now, the mess has had a 100% change and the mess is fine now, and not a mess, I will not get into all the things that transpiered or who did what, all the back stabbing, double standards, and so on, not going to piont the finger at anyone, doing so would be just as wrong as the things that were being swep under the tabel or covered up by certain people that were here three years ago.

You obviously have some fences to mend within your mess.
No I have no fences to mend, I get along great with the current mess and things are fine here. If someone does not wish to respect me because on my decision, it is not my loss but theres, I give respect where it is due, and I have no problem with anyone here, I keep my opinion about CCTI to myself even when asked by a member that is advancing to cheif, I do not go into my reason, all I say is it is a decision they have to make and I will not stear them either way.

You do still have a thing or two left to learn about being a Chief.
Maybe, but I don't think so, after 25 years in service and being on a total of 7 diferent ships and 2 shore stations I have seen it all and I know what being a Chief is about, being a chief is first and formost being a leader, to take care of the juinor personal as well as being in touch with the command and blending these two things into a workable plan.

[DCCS Keith Wilbee]

I will not get into all the things that transpiered or who did what, all the back stabbing, double standards, and so on, not going to piont the finger at anyone, doing so would be just as wrong as the things that were being swep under the tabel or covered up by certain people that were here three years ago.

I know most people that dont go through have about basically the same reasons. I appreciate the unvarnished truth. I myself have just over fifteen years of service and been on four ships, and five land stations. I personally just looked forward to the day. I would have gone through anything to be able to call myself a Chief! I do understand things happen, especially not so honest and trustworthy people and there personalities. Its a tradition that is slowly going away. Its really no big deal for someone not to go through anymore. Im sure that day will get here.

[Lance Abernethy]

I believe the issue here is the CCTI, not the individual. A personal attack does nothing to address the issue at hand. If one chooses not to participate in a time honored tradition, that is a personal choice. However, if that individual made that decision based on the Chief’s Mess at the time and that Mess has changed…there is nothing that precludes that individual from participating now. I agree with the idea that this should be something that one begins to look forward to as they progress through the ranks. There is a difference between advancement to E-7 and being a CHIEF. The initiation isn’t the sole part of the transformation...but, IT IS AN IMPORTANT PART. You may ask the question, “Can I be a successful CHIEF without participating in the initiation?”. Only time will tell if you are successful. I can tell you that you will be successful on different levels by being an active participant in the Initiation and the CHIEF’s MESS. I agree that respect is something that is earned. You could help change the view of the CCTI from within if you were an active participant. Each individual that goes through the rites of passage can influence the process and how it is viewed or respected. But first they must participate and commit to making a change. If there is nothing wrong with the system and no changes need to be made…then each Chief should encourage participation on all levels.
Bottom Line: ”In Respect of Those Who Have Gone Before Us, As A Guide For Those That Follow”. We should not be the ones that diminish the memory of those that have gone before by letting this tradition die.

[DCC Mitchell Penneau]

For what it's worth, I do believe that seeing the end of CCTI would be a sad day for all (even though I did not participate here at this unit) there is value to almost every tradition. I have been a part of a few traditions myself, shell back, golden dragon as well as the blue nose. Theses traditions were a lot of fun to participate in. Like I stated before it is the people that you go threw it with that makes it a fun event. I do plan on completing the process before I do retire, most likely with in the next year here. As I said the mess here now is great and works together 99% of all the things that happened before are not an issue here because of a change in the mess.

When I arived here I had started the prosses on the Vigorous. I was on the ship as a new Chief for 5 month and had some very good mentors, I had my charge book and had a great many signitures in the book. I got to this Group and things were so diferent and as I mentioned before there were a great many things that just did not add up. The XO here upon my check in came right out and said that he did not respect the Chief’s mess and the CO agreed with those sedaments, and frankly I had to agree as well.

I knew a great deal about the whole thing before I started, from the mess on the Vig, as well as from my uncle, he was a Master Chief in the US Navy, and retired after 37 years of service in 1972.

I think that word such as honor,integraty,devotion to duty mean something, and all of us as Chief "MUST” set the example, they are not just watch words to be memorized and spouted. If you do not adhere to these things how you can expect those under you to follow them, lead by example. I know that those that work with and for us look to us as a roll model and if we do not hold ourselves to a high standard the how can we expect others to do the same.

I have seen Chiefs going out on the town with E-3 and E-4 from there stations, having very junior personal over to there home for a few drinks. I have seen Chiefs get into there car drunk and heading home with out a word said, but then send one of there people to the Group Commander for a DWI mast because as a OINC “I could not make a big enough example” of that member. I have seen OINC’s spend more time at home then at there station, and then when something goes wrong at the station they point a finger at anyone but where it should be, and not taking any kind of responsibility for there actions. As a Chief you are responsible. With these examples of the Chief is it any wonder that many people in the Coast Guard are low performers?

I know these kind of things are an exception and not a rule, but they make all Chiefs look bad, and in most of these kind of cases if you say anything Chief to Chief, then you are the bad guy. All of us as Chief’s have to hold ourselves to a higher standard, and in doing so we will inspire other to hold themselves to the same standards.

Ok so that is all for my rant now. I hope this helps out at least a little about how I feel and how I think.

[MKCS Paul Miller]

DCC M. P. Sounds to me like you have very good reasons for the decisions you made, and have a good idea of what is is to be a "Chief". I would only like here to add on bit of advice if I may. As you have seen here, and with any "Real Chief's" Chief's Mess, an unsuported vague statement can be very volitile, and you can most assuredly expect a few reactive comments. I noted in your subsequent posts, you justified each of your beliefs and responded to each reactive comment very well. As well made known your intentions to go through that which you shot down at first, before you retire. Note that a "Chief" will not put themselves in a position like that, rather provide the supporting information up front. It's quite possible that you would have learned this while through the "Initiation Process" :eek: . Your thoughts / opinions / experiences are valued, keep it up and moved ahead. ;)

[MKC Art Bailly (ret)]

Keith; It appears that DCC Mitchell Penneau does really get what being a chief is really about. (Trusting your brothers) Like I said in my earlier posting I think that the practical factors that had to be completed for the CCTI should have to be done by all E-7’s regardless of weather or not they choose to go thru the CCTI. To DCC Mitchell Penneau. You really missed out on a lot by not going thru the CCTI. There were a lot of really neat things that happened on that day. My fellow chief’s (that went thru the initiation on the day as I did) talked about the experience and all of us thought that the events that happened during the day were really special and were glad that we all decided to go thru the initiation. The experience was well worth it. We had tons of fun, learned to trust our fellow chiefs and most important of all gained hundreds of brothers that I can ask for help and advice with any I need help with. If we stick together and work together we are a chain that cannot be broken. If we all work together and seek advise from each other we will be trusted and respected by ALL. Remember the phrase ask the chief he’ll know. No matter weather or not you go thru the initiation we (the chiefs) should do our best to make this phrase ring true.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

First, I'd like to thank Mitch Penneau for speaking up for the non-initiated side. Although, I don't agree with most of what he wrote, I do appreciate his willingness to discuss the matter.

Second, there are other un-initiated members on the forum that haven't spoken up. We can't fix it, if we don't know what is broke.

Third, there were quite a few personal jabs during this discussion (coming from both sides) that did nothing for the discussion itself except cloud the issue with bitterness. We are here to fix problems, not blame.

Finally, I was part of the the Chief's Mess with which Mitch had issues. Although, I disagree with his comments regarding that Mess, I will admit we did a lousy job of initially preparing, encouraging, and adjusting his expectations of the event. That in itself may be a topic for discussion.

Mitch, I hope you make good on your intention to participate in the next CCTI.

[ETCS David Kroll]

OK, I have to put in my 2 cents here. I was part of that mess, maybe I was the problem I don't know. What I do know is that the mess itself was very strong and we did alot of good work with the community. We did alot of work with habitat for humanity, we helped with an abused womens shelter,(NO we didn't help abuse the women!), we did several beach clean-ups, bowling parties for the crew, sponsered CG days so no morale money was used, and more. Maybe these things were not seen by everyone. But we did alot.

And I do know that the CCTI's we ran up there were some of the best I've seen in the CG. I've attended CCTI's all over the country and I think they were top notch and very good experiences for everyone put forth the effort and went through.

Did we have some different personalities in the mess, you bet, but thats what makes up a mess, several individuals, all with different outlooks/attitudes getting together for a common cause. And as far as the relationship with the command goes, that was a two way street. We did suffer as a mess because the command wasn't behind us. I have never seen a command that would not allow a CPOA meeting on their property. But thats what we had to deal with.

And at my present unit, there was no mess at all when I got here! But with-in the last year the Chief's have had two free cookouts for the crews, a softball tournement, Held their first CCTI, and are volunteering at the VA hospital.

The CCTI enables most of these great things, it bonds us all together as Chief's. OK Thats my rant, next... :)

[MKCS Jon Menze]

A little something to add. I finally got to go through CCTI this spring and here are a few things that I would like to bring up. I went through CCTI because it was something I really wanted to do, but during it I found that there are chiefs out there that just degrade the people going through it. Most of the chiefs make it a fun and learning experience but a few jerks in the bunch give people a bad taste for it. I would also like to throw out there that timing has a lot to due with people taking a while to go through CCTI. I know of people due to schools, transfers and other issue just haven't been able to do the CCTI and it isn't so much that they don't want to as timing.

[ETCS David Kroll]

Hi Jon,
I hear you and those are the kind of CCTI's that aren't much fun for anyone, except the fool who is doing the harrasing. I think those types of CCTI's are few and far between. Without getting to far into the process, no one should come out at the end of the day like it was a bad experience. One thing many places need to work on I think are the days and weeks leading up to the actual day. These should be fun and have some community service, some fund raising and other activities to get the mess together with the E7's.

And timing does have alot to do with it. Usually as soon as you make E7, they ship you off to a new duty station. But it should still be something people desire to go through.
Dave

[SKC Raymond Kurtz]

The CCTI, an opinion from one who chooses not to participate

I have not and will not participate in the CCTI in it’s present form, here is why. Before I begin, this has nothing to do with other Chief’s. I respect their belief in the CCTI although I do not believe in it myself.

(1) When as a young Coastie I witnessed many E-7s making fools of themselves in the course of participating in the CCTI (dressing in drag at the main gate, etc). I decided then and there that if I were to ever attain the vaunted rank of Chief, I would not go through the CCTI process. Fast forward to summer 1999. Having pinned on the Anchors I was all set to go through the CCTI, and was in fact one week from the Big Day, knowing in the back of my mind I was not totally in tune with it, that is I did not totally agree with it. So in order for me to participate I would have to go back on everything I believed in. This I was not willing to do, it took my family to help me realize this, which brings me to my next point.
(2) My family means everything to me. The CCTI process was causing friction and I have always put my family first, certainly before any ceremony.

Pluses –

(1) The Charge Book. This could be a valuable tool to help new Chiefs gain valuable leadership insight from those that have gone before them. I have heard from at least one Chief that after the CCTI he threw his Charge Book away. What a shame. I probably would have done the same thing because of an unfortunate incident (see minuses below.)
(2) The history. Anyone who knows me realizes that I am absolutely in love with history. Particularly military history of the WWII era, although I read books from other era, including The March Up, about the 1st MarDiv in taking Baghdad, but I digress. The history of the Coast Guard should be learned and treasured by all. We do have a rich history.
(3) The post CCTI dinner. This is a fine chance for new Chiefs to revel in their new status as Chiefs, and for the families to share in that .

Minuses –

(3) The Charge Book. One of the older Master Chief’s called me a D**k Head in writing in my Charge Book, maybe that is how the old Coast Guard addressed new Chiefs but not how I want to be addressed. Would this be something I would want to show my family? I think not.
(4) The teaching of humility. One of the purposes of the CCTI is to teach, in one-day, the meaning and practice of humility. IMHO humility cannot be taught in one day, it is a behavior that is acquired in a lifetime of learning. I know of someone who went through the CCTI that is one of the most arrogant people I have every met. He treats people below him like 2nd class citizens. He has done this to me more than once. Obviously, this “Chief” did not ‘get it’ the first time. Perhaps he needs to have remedial CCTI to understand the meaning of humility.
(5) The Secret Society stuff. What, please tell me, does this have to do with being a good Chief?
(6) Leaving out the family until the very end, the CCTI dinner. Oh sure, they are involved in the Charge Book, perhaps the learning of history and maybe the making of the Hat Box, but that is about it.

That’s about it for my 2 cents.

[MKCS Jon Menze]

Ray,
To start out with, I do respect your opinion on this subject but I would like to let you know that there is more to it than you know. I do agree there are "Chiefs" out there that you tell yourself that you really don't ever want to deal with them again, but those people are getting fewer. I do not feel that I was ever degraded during my CCTI. I as for my family, it was a bit hard on them but in the end my wife understood. The only thing that I can tell you is that you most likely will never understand until you go through it if you chose to do so and then it will open your eyes a bit futher. Again, I respect you for coming foreward with your opinion.

[DCCS Keith Wilbee]

Ray: 1) When as a young Coastie I witnessed many E-7s making fools of themselves in the course of participating in the CCTI (dressing in drag at the main gate, etc).

Keith: When I was a young Coastie and watching how the Chiefs acted together, as a brotherhood, I couldnt wait for that day. After all it is called an initiation. It was not like the pink belly I received at my first unit. I did not feel degraded, I felt like I was going through a process that become traditon
for new E-7's like I was.

Ray:(2) My family means everything to me. The CCTI process was causing friction and I have always put my family first, certainly before any ceremony.

Keith: As part of almost all processes. work is required, and not that much time to get it all done. Hence the likeness of your actual job, the Coast Guard. Your family should matter, do they have to play a big as part as you make it out, I dont think so, mine didnt, although The wife did find it amusing.

Ray: 1) The Charge Book. This could be a valuable tool to help new Chiefs gain valuable leadership insight from those that have gone before them. I have heard from at least one Chief that after the CCTI he threw his Charge Book away. What a shame. I probably would have done the same thing because of an unfortunate incident (see minuses below.)

Keith: I worked my butt off on that book, running around all crazy, and very busy, I learned alot through that book. And yes there is some not so nice things in there. But you know I made that book with pride, it didnt get destroyed like years long passed. Its a memento of the life Ive lived, and my brothers.

Ray: (2) The history. Anyone who knows me realizes that I am absolutely in love with history. Particularly military history of the WWII era, although I read books from other era, including The March Up, about the 1st MarDiv in taking Baghdad, but I digress. The history of the Coast Guard should be learned and treasured by all. We do have a rich history.
(3) The post CCTI dinner. This is a fine chance for new Chiefs to revel in their new status as Chiefs, and for the families to share in that .

Ray: Knowing you from meeting you at the CPO Academy, it seems you spend all of your time reading, which is a good thing. I learned so much about the history of cg through my book and the charges set forth in it. Especially my rate history. The dinner: Just one more part of it being the new Chiefs day, It was all about me and being a new Chief and a brother to many others.

Ray: (3) The Charge Book. One of the older Master Chief’s called me a D**k Head in writing in my Charge Book, maybe that is how the old Coast Guard addressed new Chiefs but not how I want to be addressed. Would this be something I would want to show my family? I think not.

Keith: I take the good and bad from every individual. If I like the info I keep it, if its just garbage from some personality I cant deal with, I remove it from my mind. There are leaders and there are followers, if you were a floower you would continue that trend of calling people D***heads, but as a leader and a Chief, You should decide not to treat others that way if you didnt like it. Im guessing you didnt like alot of the names you were called, while you were trudging the path the Chief. Like "hey Bootcamper your doing that all wrong, cant you do anything right"

Ray: (4) The teaching of humility. One of the purposes of the CCTI is to teach, in one-day, the meaning and practice of humility. IMHO humility cannot be taught in one day, it is a behavior that is acquired in a lifetime of learning. I know of someone who went through the CCTI that is one of the most arrogant people I have every met. He treats people below him like 2nd class citizens. He has done this to me more than once. Obviously, this “Chief” did not ‘get it’ the first time. Perhaps he needs to have remedial CCTI to understand the meaning of humility.

Keith: Again personalities. Tough to deal with at times. Just realize that now if he's another Chief, what not to be like. I know alot of arrogant Chiefs, And I bump heads with them, but as a Chiefs Mess we all get along, when we need to. We can choose to deal with whoever we want to. Lets just pass along the good stuff.

Ray: (5) The Secret Society stuff. What, please tell me, does this have to do with being a good Chief?

Keith: The Chiefs Mess is not secret, were not a secret society Ray, we do alot for our communities, our junior members. The CCTI is kinda secret as to not let the cat out of the bag. If you knew exactly what to expect, people wouldnt have to trust or believe in there fellow Chiefs. They would just fill in there books without feeling the pressures of everyday life in the Coast Guard. Kinda like some of those games we played at the academy. Im proud of the process I went through, even proud of all the stuff that went on during that day, Im also glad that I didnt know exactly what was going to happen, it was like a big surprise party just for me and the others guys and girls that went through it with me. It is however a little disappointing to know that I cant torcher (Real Chiefs) all day long with my singing skills

Ray: (6) Leaving out the family until the very end, the CCTI dinner. Oh sure, they are involved in the Charge Book, perhaps the learning of history and maybe the making of the Hat Box, but that is about it.

Keith: Again Its an initiation. I guess it would have been weird to have my family in on the whole thing, trying to explain every little detail because they didnt understand anything about it. I have a family and I love them. They dont come to work with me every day. I dont tell them every thing that I do at work every day. I have a life. I have friends. I go out of town for many schools, I go out of country and town on hunting expeditions. Should I bring them along also? This time is set aside for the new Chiefs. To lead up to a day that is shared by all, including the family.

Ray, I appreciate the coming out with it, and the whys. I would hope that one day you might find it within yourself to go through with it, to find out what it all is really about. And change the process, actively participate in getting it all together and how your local mess is going to accomplish every thing involved. Its not easy and requires alot of work and more meetings. How many times have you been told if you dont like it change it. To be able to change it you have to go through it. Or you can just take the easy way out and say, some body else will take care of it. Attitudes are changing, the process is changing, were changing it, it has changed significantly compared to ten years ago. Again thank you.

[HSCS ANDERSEN]

Greetings fellow Chiefs. I read with disgust the postings of our E-7 shipmate, but I do appreciate the input. Each CCTI is different, some are better, some not so hot. Some Messes are strong, some are weak- I’ve been a part of both. Being on a 378 precluded me from attending several initiations, but I waited. Thanks to a couple Chiefs, I was able to go through mine at sea, and I wouldn’t change it if I could. There has always been a difference between a good technician and a Chief, and it seems that those who will not go thru initiations tend to be the technicians, not the Chiefs. Chiefs are both good technicians andf good leaders. SKC K, get over your self. Both my wife and I were able to balance CCTI and our family at the same time with only a positive effect, and to her credit, she was able to do hers while running a clinic and serving as the ombudsman for a ship in the Gulf. DCC P, please take the opportunity to have your new Mess initiate you, it will be worth it. Fellow Chiefs, please consider not wasting your time with people like the SKC, some people will never get it.

[DCC Mitchell Penneau]

HSCS I have to disagree with you, going through the CCTI prosses does not preclude someone from being a good leader. The CCTI is not the real factor in making a leader, it is the person's experieance that makes him/her a leader. I know many a Chief that has gone through CCTI that suck as leaders. I also know a great many Chiefs that have done the CCTI that are very full of themselvs, but I do not know any that have not gone through it that as you said are full of themselvs. In the end it is a personal choice, and when I made my choice I did niclude my family and we all togeather decided that I would not partisapate.

[MSS2 Harry March (MSTC)]

I enjoyed my CCTI; in fact I did not feel like a real Chief until after going through it. I personally believe in tradition and never even thought of not going through it. One of the main things I learned was that networking with other Chiefs can makes things happen. For those who avoid CCTI they are missing an opportunity to meet their fellow Chiefs, especially those Chiefs at other units. Let’s face it, if you treat advancement to Chief as just an advancement and avoid the contact with your fellow chiefs you might as well be a glorified E6.

Who do you go to when you come across a difficult situation as a leader at your unit? You look towards your fellow Chiefs, more than one of them has probably dealt with a similar situation.

I had a blast with CCTI enjoyed my "drink" with a smile. :) Of course I enjoyed my Golden Dragon - and swam the trough. I know it will be a great story for my son when he gets older and my hat box and charge book are displayed proudly.

For those who don't go through it you are missing an opportunity that you will probably miss once you leave the service, the lessons learned are appreciated later.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

I have been reading this thread for sometime and have been interested in the personalities and dynamics of this particular discussion. If anything, this is certainly a hot topic.

Are there people in the Mess who go overboard? Yes! Are there people we deal with at our units that go overboard? Yes! Are there people in life that we deal with that we don't agree with and have a difficult time interacting with? Yes! It is how we as individuals are able to stand up to the difficult tasks and remarks that make us stronger as a person and as a group.

I went through my CCTI in the Fall of 2002. There was never a doubt about going through CCTI. I remember as an SN watching some of the Chiefs walking around with their books in various states of dis-repair. I didn't view it then as I do now any differently than a line crossing of which I am also proud of.

For me it was a valuable learning experience, the stress, the strain, the humor and ultimately the balance were well worth it. It was no different than what I deal with everyday. The people I met and worked with in my class brought a wide-range of experience to the table and I learned that I can call on them at anytime. I learned that I can trust the members of the Mess and call upon them at anytime for advice. I developed an e-mail group of my classmates and have and will continue to call upon their expertise as well as the expertise of the members of this discussion group.

It was a day that I look back upon with pride. I take great pleasure in breaking out my book to show to distant relatives and friends. Many of these people were extremely impressed by the comments, the words of wisdom and the quotes that for the people writing them meant something and they were willing to take the time to pass them on. I have taken the same attitude, pass along true Words of Wisdom that mean something to me and hopefully will strike a chord with the person reading them at a later date.

The Mess I went through CCTI with was very strict about what was written in the books. I think that if there are clearly defined and understood rules for the CCTI for the initiates as well as the existing members of the Mess, then, each and every one of those who choose to participate will be willing to look back with pride and this discussion will be moot.

[MKC Art Bailly (ret)]

A lot of good things being said on this topic. I agree that just because you do or do not go threw the CCTI you’re a good chief. But the learning, teamwork and friendships gained are more then worth it. For those of you who haven’t gone thru it trust your fellow chiefs and enjoy the experience it’s not that bad. I to, like many take great pride in my charge book and hatbox. I put a lot of time into it and wouldn’t even think of throwing them away. Those that do most likely went thru the CCTI just to say they did and do not really care what the history / tradition is all about. Like Keith said take the good and throw out the bad. As for the family part of the whole thing well its not for the family its for you and the dinner and get together afterwards is more then appropriate amount of time for their involvement. I paid for my mother to fly to Alaska and attend the dinner and invited her to the pinning on ceremony and she was not at all upset that that is all she’s was involved in and my wife didn’t have a problem with the amount she was involved either. So to say it was a family decision I think is a cope out on your part not to participate.

[MKCS Jon Menze]

As for things that were seen when most of us were just starting our careers, that is the old CCTI. The new CCTI by what I understand is very different. The biggest thing I got out of the whole thing is that you are not in it alone. I got to meet a lot of good chief's out there. Yes there where a few that I would never deal with again but there were far more good ones that bad. As for family, I agree with Art, my wife family came to my pinning and they thought that it was great. My wife didn't understand why I did it until the pinning. So to say that because what you seen happen in 10 plus years ago you don't want to be apart of the brotherhood is up to you but I will tell you that you are missing more than you ever will know.

[ITC Pete Slanina]

Well sailors,
I'm new to the anchors but wise in years. I have seen good leaders and bad in the civilian world and in the Coast Guard. I joined late when I was 26 and had a very good view of both sides of the fence. I was brought up with old school rules and beliefs. I love tradition and I look forward to the CCTI process. I love to laugh and I'm sure they'll get quite a few laughs out of me.
I remember as an older non-rate breaking in on quarterdeck watch on the 180 and seeing these guys dressed in womens clothes, standing at the front gate of Group Mayport and waving handkerchiefs at the passing cars. I asked what the heck that was and was told it was Chiefs initiation. I'll never forget it. I thought it was the funniest thing. Many people feel it's degrading but I feel its part of tradition. Unfortunately, you won't see anything like that done in the public eye anymore. If you are offended by it do not participate. Plain and simple but don't try and spoil it for those who do want to participate and by no means is this directed at anyone so far who has posted. It's my feelings in general.
I do feel everyone is entitled to their own opinion and beliefs. Everyone is different and not everyone will get along but we all share a common bond and you just never know if that son-of-a-b***h you can't stand just may help you out or even save your life one day.
CCTI is part of tradition and I hope it never fades away. I will go through it and I know I will never forget it. I also believe that certain people will be better leaders than others. If a person has those skills already, not participating in CCTI isn't going to suddenly make them any less of a leader. It may help to enhance their sense of pride in the rank and the Guard but we shouldn't make them an outcast. We all have to work together to get the job done!

[BMCS Joe Wright]

I will throw in my two cents real quick:

I went through the CCTI (the same mess that DCC Penneau said he did not care for) and I would not change a thing. It was a great experience and extremely worthwhile.

People who HAVE NOT gone through the CCTI have reasons and Chiefs that HAVE gone through always have positive things to say about it.

If it is such a bad thing....where is the Chief that went through it and regrets it, or is sorry they did it? I have never met one. And if I am the one contemplating whether to go through the CCTI or not - that tells me it is the right thing to do; period.

[MKC Art Bailly (ret)]

WOW Jo; I never thought of it in that way. I also have not ever come across a chief that regrets going thru the CCTI. The only negative things I've herd about the CCTI have come from those who have not gone thru it. Like the old saying goes, dont judge it untill you've done it or gone thru it your self.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

We seem to have run out of steam without resolving anything. I'm going to issue a challenge to one of the non-initiated Chiefs:

Go through the initiation and come back and tell us if you still believe yourself to be right. If so, I will personally apologize to you in this forum for ever doubting your judgement. I'll also help you document the problems or trivialities that you encountered in a letter to the E-10. You will have the opportunity to provide an objective dissenting viewpoint about the CCTI. And, for what it's worth, I'll lend my voice to yours. I'll make sure it is known that you tried it, disregarding your own reservations, and still found it wanting. I'll become your advocate.

You can become the one part of this equation that is missing- an individual that went through the process and still thinks its a bad idea. What do you say?

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

Over two weeks, and no reply. That doesn't lend much weight to the "CCT
I is a bad thing" argument.

[BMC Ken Gouge]

All,
In my experience with the CCTI, there were a few practices that did not come across as a learning experience. That said, I agree with all of you that I wouldn't trade that day for anything.

I think the system would benefit from there being a set schedule, timeline or script for the entire process. Maybe at least a guide for the Sponsor. We as Chiefs can deviate as needed to meet operational requirements and still keep with the program. During my day there seemed to be times when my initiated brethren were trying to figure out what to do next, probably by comparing notes on their initiations.

An issue that I'm surprised hasn't come up is the effect the "E-Coast Guard" has had on the process. It is now possible for one to complete most prac's without leaving ones WS-III. It seems this limits the need to seek wisdom and advice from the honorable ones, network with your fellow initiates and actually MEET PEOPLE :eek:

Quite a few cents worth, but I feel the tradition is worth the effort.

Ken

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Ken,

I would agree with you on both points a standardized format sanctioned or endorsed by the E10, may help.

The use of the SWSIII, is a great tool for research, etc. As a general rule, I will not respond to e-mail requests during this valuable learning period. The only exception is if I have a friend a great distance away. Even then, I usually make them send me a handwritten note with a SASE :D

As we begin to approach the fall CCTI season with a new class of initiates, I would like to read what some of my fellow Chiefs have to say on the subject, particularly those who are going through this fall.

[BMC Ken Gouge]

Steve, I was not only talking about WOW, but the pracs. I know it had to be more of a learning/bonding experience prior to Al Gore inventing the internet :)

[SKCM Linda Reid]

I had to throw away my charge book, too ... but that was the "old days"!

Here in the D.C. Area I think we have developed a very good process ... thanks to many dedicated chiefs who help out and uphold the standards. There will be changes this fall to change with the times, but we will continue to build on our successes. I've had much good feedback about what a valuable and exciting time it was for the candidates.

A year ago we had en E-9 (yes!) go through the process! He had never had the opportunity before and he wanted to do it. He jumped in enthusiastically and enjoyed the heck out of the whole thing.

MCPO Reid
Chief of the Mess for the Washington DC Area

[FSC LANCE HOLVOET]

I'll be honest. Here is the way I look at it. To put it simply "either you are or you're not". Either you can be pay grade or a Chief Petty Officer. If you choose to be the former don't expect the benefits or the respect of the latter from CHIEFS. Yes, to your subordinates you will be "Chief" because that is the professional military courtesy your pay grade demands. As we will in a professional situation. But that is where it ends.

All those that speak of initiation as a dated and childish event with secret handshakes and secret decoder rings oversimplify it to convince themselves they have done or are doing the right thing by not being initiated. What I don't understand is the reason for NOT doing it. My god, if anyone now can't take what little is left of the "process" what would you have done 10 or 15 yrs ago as some of our more senior members of he CHIEFS core endured. The hazing word isn't even a factor anymore. While held close to the chest, initiation is not the closeted event it was. At the end will you or should you have some sort of epiphany? Probably not, will you or should you feel proud and a part of something when your REAL anchors are pinned on? YES

IF you don't then WE (your fellow CHIEFS) most notably your sponsor have failed you. Either way once you have been initiated you have the right to speak about the initiation, its pluses, its minuses. HOWEVER YOU CAN'T JUDGE IT WITHOUT GOING THROUGH IT!

Once again I come back to phrase "right of passage". I think that we have swung so far the other way in this PC society of ours (and remember we want the military to be a reflection of society) crows aren't even "tacked on" anymore. Were some things cruel and beyond the realm of deceny in the name of honor? Did some things go too far? You bet. Has initiation suffered? In some ways, yes. In some ways no. I think the initiation we do here strikes a good balance but still remains a "right of passage". However from what I understand some places have eviscerated the process so much getting a boy scout merit badge is a tougher road. No matter how it is done or what degree if you wear anchors there is NO reason not to go through it. You are doing a disservice to those that have gone before that wore the anchors, those you serve with now and those who you will leave behind if you don't. Tradition is something you cultivate and nurture and keep alive. If you don't you know what it becomes? HISTORY

I'm sure I'll see some backlash here but I can tell you that if charged me with being Politically Correct they will find no evidence.

Have at it...

[DCC Mitchell Penneau]

I am both an E-7 (pay grade) as well as a Chief. CCTI does not make one a Chief in no way shape or form. All I expect and demand is the respect of my position, just as any other Chief expects and demands of others. I do expect professional military courtesy in professional situations, and except nothing less. And if that is where it ends so be it, what other so called Chiefs decide to do or act towards me on off time so what, it does not affect my life much at all, and it is there decision to be petty if they wish. I do not answer to E-7 and never will, and that is that.

I do not speak about the initiation to anyone, my opinions are mine and unless asked I keep them that way. I don’t commit to an answer when someone that is a new Chief approaches me that decision is there’s to make. I personally do believe that the CCTI is a useless thing that has no real purpose left. It is outdated and there is no real need to keep it. I don’t try to convince myself I did the right thing, for me I did and I have no regrets about it. You may not understand the decision not to go through, but for me I can’t understand the reason why to do it, so on that point we are even. What would I have done 10 or more years ago?? Most likely the same thing I did four years ago. And skip the whole thing. I have never been one to follow the crowd because that is what everyone else is doing. I make up my own mind and stick to that decision. I did not base my decision on the” hazing” factor, I have been through several other initiations, crossing the line (equator), as well as the date line and had a lot of fun doing it. The day I had my anchors put on I was very proud, just as I am proud today. My Anchors are just as real as yours.

A week before I put on my anchors I had a talk with a “old” master Chief, my uncle he retired from the Navy as a Master Chief in 1973 after 33 years of service and his words to me were “You’re a grown man and you can make up your own mind, but going and doing the silliness that the CCTI has become is not worth it. You want to talk about tradition fine. Do you really know what CCIT started as, I do because the above named man was in the service when it was call a welcoming to the mess, and it was nothing like it is today. History, do you know just how old this “tradition” is? I can tell you it is not very old at all, consider the fact that the rank of Chief was approved for the Coast Guard on Mat 18th 1920, that’s not even 100 years ago.

What is CCTI suppose to teach someone? How about the core values of the Coast Guard, how about leadership or even integrity. These are the things that are needed and what should be focused on. But I have seen a very large number of so called “real” Chiefs that no nothing of these things. How does this sound…a senior Chief telling his crew at the station (E-3 to E-6) that so and so is not a real Chief because he did not do the CCTI, or he was not man enough to do CCTI and is there for not a Chief…Is this what you all learn and get out of CCTI? How about a OINC that gets drunk and then gets in his car and drives off, but then takes a member of his crew to mast for driving after drinking, what kind of example is this. How about a Chief that not only condones harassment at there station but partakes in it as well, great integrity there. I could go on, but why bother, these are things that real Chief do and get away with and they are wrong. I live by the core values of the Coast Guard, of honor, respect and devotion to duty, I lead by example and take care of my people nad help other no matter what department they work in or what station they are at, that is what a Chief should do and what a Chief has to do, because it is the job of a Chief to do these things.

[MKCS Jon Menze]

Mitch,
First of all, in my opionion, demanding respect is a sure way not to get it. A good leader is respected as a person not because of the position he/she fills. Just like coming up through the ranks, respect should be earned not demanded. Customs and courtesy for my position is different, I expect that to happen. I hated people that "flipped their crows around" and did not respect them at all but I did use proper customs and courtesies with them.
Second, you think CCTI is out dated? How would you know. As far as I have seen in any of your writting on the subject you don't even know what it is all about. As for what it teaches you, If you don't know the core values by now, you never will. There is a lot more to it than you think. If you beleive that this is something that should go away, take BMCS Endicott up on his challange. Or are you afraid that going through it just might change your mind about the whole proccess?

Jon

[DCC Mitchell Penneau]

Jon, your right, respect is earned, and that is not what I said I "demanded" I said I expect the same professional military courtesy as you or anyone else expects. I never have and never will Push" my crows or anchors, I don't agree with that kind of leadership.

As for my statement about the CCTI being out dated, that is my opinion and that is all. I don't see any use in it. If going through it makes one a Chief, then from what I have seen in the last few years I would rather not. I see way to many6 of these Chiefs acting like they are gods and can do as they please. Leading by intimadation and not exampel like so many do, this mind set is wrong as well as hurts the Coast Guard.

I lead by exampel, if my people have to work weekends then so do I, my people work late guess what I am there too. I do not say one thing to my people and then do something diferent.

Why would I be afraid to go through it, there is no way it could be anything like the blue nose, shell back or the date line tradition. I do not feel that CCTI makes someone a Chief, there are many that have gone through the CCTI that I can say are poor Chiefs and leaders, it is the person that makes a Chief and not the CCTI.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

I went through the Fall 02 CCTI in the DC area, and I would have to throw my kudos to Master Chief Reid and those that took the time and energy to plan and execute it. I felt that it was a valuable learning experience. This has lead me to be active in the plannning and execution of CCTIs in my area.

I cannot understand DCC Penneau's rationale for not going through the CCTI, but he is entitled to his position on the matter. Does that make him any less valuable as a member of the Chief's Corps? I personally do not think so. So let's accept his opinion as valid. Its no worse than discussing politics and realizing that two or more people are not going to agree.

I will applaud DCC Penneau on his ability to articulate his reasons for not participating in the CCTI better than some have who disagree with him. Not once has he resulted in name calling orpersonal attacks.

I will back him on the point that it is completely unnecessary to call him or any other non-initiated CPO an E7 in front of his crew or refer to him as not a Real Chief around junior personnel. The only exception to that is if they choose to partake in the CCTI activities, then all bets are off. That seems to me like a bigger degradation in customs, courtesies, honor and respect than my position about my first name at home with neighbors and friends.

[MKCS Jon Menze]

Mitch,
You stated in a past post and I quote "All I expect and demand is the respect of my position, just as any other Chief expects and demands of others."
That is what I was talking about.
As for CCTI, I understand that it is your opionion and all I am saying is that you do not understand the whole thing. It doesn't make you a "Chief" There is a lot more to it than you think and the only way to find out just what it involves is to go through it. It teaches you a lot more than you know. As for being afraid, I did not say that you were afriad to go through it, What I asked is that "If you beleive that this is something that should go away, take BMCS Endicott up on his challange. Or are you afraid that going through it just might change your mind about the whole proccess?"

I asked if you were afraid that going through it might change your mind about the proccess. As for going through it making you a Chief, I don't know where you got that idea. It didn't make me a Chief, but it did teach me a lot about being one and what to expect from my fellow Chiefs.

[ETCS Michael Backs]

OK, I lurked long enough. My personal experiences for those of you who don't know me, if you like me thats fine, if you don’t, too bad.

I’m not a strong personality, more of the technical type, and not a natural born leader, but I am very opinionated. I know leadership, and I do try to practice it every day, and I FEEL the responsibility of the ANCHORS that I earned, and I always remember were I came from and how I was treated and respected by others before me.

CCTI was a very good process for me, only because the Chief's Mess onboard was run by several outstanding people. They gave more into the process then the people going through it. It was Underway, off the coast of Panama, a couple of days AFTER I had helped initiate most of the cutter and several "Chief" wogs in to the mysteries of the deep :eek: I'm a Shellback, but I particpated in it several times in the Navy many years before then, and with much more hazing than it is now, which I think is a good thing - less hazing. I also really appreciated that there was no alcohol at my CCTI, which can really bring out the worst in a few people – but that’s another topic.

I learned several things about being a Chief that I didn't really realize until years later, those Chiefs were willing to participate with the crew, while still keeping their leadership role intact.

While I was in the Navy, I experienced my E-8, who had refused the initiation, as a very competent leader. He had advanced from E-6 on board, bypassing many so called “Chiefs” in the weak Mess. He was shunned by the very people who were not demonstrating good leadership themselves. I decided then that the initiation was not for me if I ever achieved E-7.

Fast forward several years and a shift from the Navy to the Coast Guard, as well as a few more years at sea. I noticed a definite difference, and it was the members in the Chief's Mess that made the difference.

I have been to several CCTI’s since then, all on land, and there are always the blowhards who can’t wait to demean and harass the new initiates, but there are also Chiefs who are there to help you learn this process and understand the meaning behind it. There are many different personalities in this world and YOU ARE NOT GOING TO GET ALONG WITH ALL OF THEM, but it doesn’t mean that the CCTI is meaningless.

I feel that the CCTI has moved in a positive direction, unfortunately losing some of the history and tradition, while attempting to keep the best parts. It still comes down to the Chief’s in the Mess, the COMMAND has some influence in it’s support of the Mess, and there are several lousy commands out there, but if YOU don’t put something into it, you will never get anything out of it.

For the uninitiated, I regret that you choose not to go through, but I respect that you may have had the experience of a lousy command or Mess, and I will never harass you because you made that choice, but DO NOT think that I believe you really understand the CCTI process. I do feel sorry for you, you can never really understand something unless you experience it – hopefully in a positive way.

If you get another chance to participate, then do so, you can only make yourself stronger and the Chief's Mess stronger, and with the way the world and the Coast Guard is changing, we definitely need a stronger Chief’s Mess.

[MKCS Jon Menze]

Michael,
Very well said. I could not agree more. I really don't want to be depicted as one of those who are harassing those who havan't went through it. I very much believe that those who haven't gone through it will never understand what it is about. I also believe that until you have gone through it you can't knock what you don't know about. Those that haven't gone through it are only guessing what it is about. Again, I could not have said it better than you did.

Jon

[MKC Jo Ledbetter]

ETC BACKS - Well said!

I too was initiated ashore, following a tour on a cutter. Participating in the CCTI gave me a very clear picture of who was a blowhard and who was a professional Chief Petty Officer in my new Mess. It was immediately evident to me which ones "walked the talk." For me - that disclosure alone was worth participating in the CCTI process.

Your other points were well received too, but that "blowhard" one sticks out with me because I realized, after the CCTI, it was clear to me who I could count on in the Mess and who was full of hot air. If I hadn't participated in the CCTI, I would have been wandering like a lone sheep, learning the hard way and wasting time. The airbags served their pupose in identifying themselves immediately as such. For that, I am also grateful.

No disrespect intended to anyone. Just pointing out that even the unpleasant aspects of the CCTI were beneficial.

Thanks again for the enlightenment Shipmate! I had almost forgotten about that.

Jo

[HSC Mac McLarrin]

Speaking from the aspect of a PCPO, I have reservations about the CCTI. I am about to go through it, but I honestly do not look forward to it. I have had a long and somewhat colorful career path. Yes, I am only now an E7 after 19 years in the Coast Guard. I have seen many of my friends and former co-workers pass into the realm of "Chiefdom", both through CCTI and by choosing not to go through it. I know that there are those thinking that if you didn't go through CCTI you are not "really" a chief. I am about to make my own life considerably more miserable during my CCTI with this post, but here goes... When the Coast Guard promoted me, the certificate did not say E7, it said CHIEF PETTY OFFICER. I know many a "Chief" that I have little respect for berate a fellow chief that chose not to go through CCTI. This just proves a point - even when I was an E5 I saw this treatment go on - and all that happened was that I lost respect for BOTH chiefs - one for not going through CCTI, and the other for flaunting it inappropriately in front of junior enlisted folks. I realize that I have not yet gone through the process, but I will - I have chosen to do it for a couple of reasons - first because I do believe that there is information to be learned and comraderie to be gleaned from the steps involved. Second, I do believe in long standing traditions (appropriate, respectful traditions), from which we gain a unity of service, and respect for fellow coasties of both past and present. For those reasons I CHOOSE to go through CCTI. What I have difficulty tolerating are the Chiefs that propulgate the belief that without CCTI you are not a chief, but an E7. Once again, I have not yet gone through the process, but there is absolutely no way anyone can convince me that a 2 month initiation will somehow enlighten me as to how to become an effective leader. If I haven't learned that in 19 years, I certainly will not in 2 months. Having so many friends do this previously, I have a fair idea of what to expect. I know that CCTI has changed a great deal over the last 10 years or so - I think probably for the better. Some old timers think we are losing some of the traditions passed down over the years. Times change. A bad tradition shouldn't be passed down just because it is a tradition. Hazing was a tradition when I first joined. I'm glad we learned over the years to outlaw some of the things we used to do. We learned. As has the CCTI process from what I've seen (I picture a few of you scratching your heads and wondering what I've "seen" since I've never been through it, but I have been told in painstaking detail what a few others have done in the past). For that I am grateful - however I still see some things that don't seem very respectful. Yeah, I've heard the saying "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" I've heard that I can be taught humility. Sorry, but at my age no-one can teach me humility, and anything that is meant to embarass someone teaches nothing.

After this long winded post, my point is this - Anyone that chooses not to participate in CCTI may very well miss out on some comraderie and tradition, and maybe even never get some of the information passed during the process, HOWEVER, I firmly believe that CCTI is not some defining moment in your life that magically transforms you into a respected and well informed leader of men. I would hope that all Coasties choose to participate in CCTI when the time comes because they want to. Not because of a fear of long term retribution from the chief's mess.

Finally, ask yourself this - even though I have chosen to go through the process I have some reservations. Why? Obviously I have heard things that concern me. I already have had a couple of pompous chiefs threaten me with rediculous comments meant to somehow intimidate me into fearing what is in store. I'm not 21 years old, I'm not an E3, and I'm certainly not intimidated by another E7 - Chief or not. I believe the process could be great. I believe however that there are those that have already gone through it that simply can not wait until it is their turn to "initiate" someone else, and given enough laxity would have us back to using electrodes on the twins. How about pulling the reins in on those individuals, and maybe more of us would look forward to CCTI with a little less apprehension.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

Mac,
Make it a point to post again, the day after. Let's see how they compare.

[DCCS Brett Wickett]

I have read some very strong points on here from both sides of the fence. I went through and really can only comment from that side. 1. Was there a light that came on immediately following the CCTI that was a beacon to follow to become a great leader and Chief......nope. Was it total humiliation........nope, Was I pressured into going through...........nope, Given I had a chance to do it again, would I .......YEP, in a heart beat. Was it all I thought it was going to be.......nope, Was I in fact let down a little.........yep..........Would I do it again...........YEP..........I was on a ship at the time but we did our CCTI on land in conjunction with the Group we tied up at. And we were co-located with the Navy, that in itself should tell you something. But looking back, I guess I really didn't get anything out of it that day, and really didn't get anything out of it that night at the dinner, excpet that I was overwhelmingly proud to be there. But as time has passed and i have looked back, it does start to come into focus. And alot of what I was asked to do makes more sinse. As for the charge book, Do I agree and like everything in there......nope, But my book sets on top of my entertainment center as a piece of furniture for all to see, I am proud of it and proud to show it off. But more importantly, when things may not be going just right I get that book and look through it, I look at the good and the bad, and it just re centers things, not all of the people are the same, not all Chiefs are the same and that is what makes things strong. Different opinions are a good thing. For thsoe that choose not to go through, that is your choice, will it make you a worse person or Chief it you don't go, I doubt it, I would think that you either have what it takes or you don't and 1000 CCTI's are not going to make you somehting you are not. But just remember if you don't go through, you really don't know what you missed, and you don't know what impact it will have on you 6 months, 6 yrs or 6 lifetimes later. I am not trying to sell CCTI, but I hate to hear someone bash it that has never been there and has no idea what effect it would have had on them.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I also don't understand how someone can be so hostile over a process they know little or nothing about. YOU get out of the CCTI only what YOU put into it. If YOU do the minimum required, YOU reap minimum rewards. If YOU listen to all that is said and taught, YOU will be a better CHIEF at the end of the day. Defended your choice for ANYTHING by calling those who disagree with you..... childish....is ....I don't know....childish....at best. Read the Chief's Charge with an open mind and the purpose of the CCTI may come a little clearer to you. Never met anyone who went thru it, truely applied themselves to it, and regretted it. Oh Yeah, and I know you are, but what am I ?

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Seeing as how the thread seems to have ended and Dennis' question was still not answered, let me give some "Words of Wisdom" to all of the uninitiated E-7s out there.

Lots of people want change, but very few people are willing to initiate it, and even fewer are willing to work to achieve those changes.

If you see a problem and aren't going to help fix it, don't cry when no one else fixes it. Don't cry if someone else repairs it in a manner not to your liking.

If you're the "victim" of a poor mess and do nothing to change the attitudes and practices of that mess, you become an accomplice in the continued victimization of others.

And the CCTI process is yours. We have all gone thru ours. If you're not getting everything that you thought you could out of it, ask yourself, what are you putting into it. Demand more of yourself and those around you and you may recieve the things that you are lacking, or looking for.

[MKC William Brown]

Hello to all,

I recently completed the fall CCTI and I have read all of the remarks made here. Though there were a few things about CCTI that I didn't really enjoy, it was one of the most meaningful experiences I have ever taken part in. One very important statement was made and repeated many time during our journey through "the passage", it is that you must keep everything in perspective. Even through the unpleasant parts of CCTI, I had allot of fun and the relationships I developed from it will last a life time.

I highly recommend CCTI to any new E-7 and I will actively encourage all my junior personnel to participate in it when their time comes. For those of you who don't know me, I was one who once thought CCTI was not for me. Very recently I had considered not attending it. I am glad I didn't miss out. :) If you are still uncertain about it, just remember to keep it all in perspective.

Bill

[MKC Robert L. Cook]

I think I have read just about every one of these threads and I believe BMCS Slesh hit the nail on the head. I would just like to add something. I just finished my CCTI a few days ago. I too had reservations about the process but trusted that my fears where far less important than the experience and friendships that I would gain. I was absolutely right. It was by-far a whorthwhile endeavor. It is apparrent why the Commandant and the E10 endorse the process. At the very least it is a great chance for your fellow chiefs to reiterate the leadership values that you have learned over the years. As for you folks that that don't want to participate. Well lets just say your missing a golden oppurtunity. Sure you have your rights and all but we know that those are just excuses. I say "Put up or Shut up" and we'll leave you alone.

[BMC Sean P. McCarthy]

To All, Fellow Chiefs and E-7s,
Let me say this, The CCTI is keeping with the highest standards of the Coast Guard. Honor, Respect, and Devotion to Duty are the core of values. I myself have been through the CCTI many, many days ago (5 to be exact). Let me say this, I would compare the CCTI to LAMS training only better. I feel that when a person arrives at the door an E-7 he or she feels they are a good leader and when they complete the CCTI they are shown that they are in fact a good leader, but not perfect and when the decision is before them on an issue they can't handle they can pool from the people around them. With that said there are many people that signed my charge book and when I turn the pages I can choose the one that can best help me at that time. I look at my charge book as a rolodex of knowledge, not as a thing my wife will look at on payday. The whole time I was participating I was doing so of my own free will. In my charge book I was asked to have my wife write a brief letter on what it meant to her for me becoming a Chief, and you know what she decided not to write a letter. Not one person broke my chops or had anything to say about that. I would like to say to all PCPO's that if they have a concern about the CCTI to ask and listen. What I learned that day I feel will only help me to guide junior people as well as assist the senior people throughout the Coast Guard. Again Thanks to all.

[MKC DAVID SHUART]

All I can say is WOW, I along with 6 others went thru CCTI yesterday and it was an amazing experience! I learned alot and it was definately worth it. To those who have not... you are missing out on a experience like no other.

Dave :D

[LT Arthur Nelson (MKC) (Ret)]

If I may offer... at this mess after each CCTI a Chiefs meeting is announced and the past CCTI was discussed by the mess. A committee is formed comprised of the new initiatees and some fellow Chiefs [for guidance, remember, these new folks are just learning to walk & talk as a Chief.] With the new Chief's input & recommendations the committee then begins outlining plans for the next CCTI taking the good and improving or modifying areas felt needing attention. Afterwards this is forwarded to the COTM for review & approval.

[CWO Dana Lewis (QMC) (Ret)]

Some very interesting observations/concerns on this CCTI process that is in place. For what it is worth, since old timers can poke in here now,has anyone ever bothered to describe or relay along just exactly what the Chiefs initiation process of 1974 through 1980 entailed.

There seems to be a multitude of " horror stories" about what folks think used to transpire, but has anyone ever responded first hand to what some initiations, from the cutter side, were really like ??

Will put some thoughts together if interested. Advanced 1 March 1974, initiated a couple of weeks later.