My Space

[BMC John Phillips III]

Thoughts on the my space generation? It seems that almost anyone in their 20's has a my space account. I am sure that even a few Chiefs do.

Reason I ask is due to the young lady on American Idol that had alleged pornographic pictures on the internet (turned out not to be her). However, there were several photos of her consuming alcoholic beverages and she is only 20 years of age.

Here is another question, if you saw pictures of one of your subordinates or even just a fellow Coastie doing something illegal what would you do about it?

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Define illegal. If it were a picture of them Jaywalking, tell them they're an idiot for advertising their stupidity on the internet. If it involves them drinking underage, put them on report, and talk to them about advertising their stupidity on the internet.
But if someone or something drew me to My Space, UTUBE, or anyone of the other sites, I'd treat it like any other source when it comes to reports of someone violating the UCMJ.

[ETC Brian Strattard]

Speaking as a "20-something Chief with a Myspace page"...It is what you make of it...it's just a tool, nothing else...I personally use it for keeping in touch with friends and family all over the U.S....I don't do well keeping in touch via phone or email...but I can send dumb pics to my buddies for a laugh... :D

Sure you can abuse it, just as you can abuse this site...or any other for that matter...if you're dumb enough to put something on the net that you really shouldn't...then you deserve to be caught and reprimanded/punished accordingly...especially if you made media evidence of a punishable act, then posted it for the world to see and record against you...that's a no brainer...

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

"If it involves them drinking underage, put them on report"

I fail to see how you could do that with anything posted on My Space... Just because someone had a beer in their hand, or even if they said they were drunk, what proof do you have.. Zero.

I agree, these sites/pages are what you make of them. I think I even had to join it once to see what my kids were posting.. I don't remember how to get on it....

Wray.. :cool:

[BMC Ken Gouge]

If I recall correctly, there has already been a Coastie kicked out due to steroid use, which he had posted on his my space account.

[BMCS Dave Considine]

And there was the AWOL Florida Coast Guardsman that had a pretty bad My Space page if I remember correctly.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

There is no guidance on the use of MySpace or UTube as far as the release of information. I have been told it is in the works...we will see.

Really the only guidance that defaults to MySpace and even our page is the personal use of government computer systems at work.

My advice is, if you don't want your mom reading about it then don't post it. The same goes for pictures.

Also don't bring discredit to the service. If you have photos of yourself in umm, lets just say compromising positions and then you also have photos of you receiving an award in uniform on your MySpace site, then you are bringing discredit to the service.

If you don't know what your people areposting out there, then you need to go over and start looking

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Good post Steve, I agree completely.. ;)

Wray... :cool:

[ETC Pat Kaschube]

And to add to what should and should not be posted on those sights, members need to be cautioned about posting Coast Guard information that falls into the OPSEC realm. That could be something as small as the number of boats at their station or where they are heading on their next patrol. That is a simple matter of making them aware of problems that could come up.

[FSC Jeff Stumpf]

Since when do you have to have proof to put someone on report? All there has to be is reasonable doubt! A picture with a beer or them saying they were drunk is resonable enough for me. To bad there wasn't a stupid clause in the UCMJ but then when I was younger I would have probably fallen under that clause a few times :D .
Jeff

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Wray, if someone posts that they go out and drink on Myspace, and they're under 21, that's all the proof you'll ever need. And not to turn everything back to homosexuality, .....but if they list in their profile that they're a homosexual, I'd follow Chapter 12 and start processing them for discharge. If they listed all of the illegal drugs that they're taking I'd break out Chapter 20 and call medical. If they listed the people at the unit that they're having inappropriate or prohibited relationships with, I'd breakout Chapter 8 and follow that. Anything they post on there can be viewed as a declaration.

[BMC John Phillips III]

How do you feel about checking out your people's pages? Is it an invasion of privacy or not? Or is it fair to say that Myspace is public domain?


Jeff, I think you mean reasonable suspicion and don't forget about preponderance of evidence.

[ETC Ben DiGuilio]

[QUOTE=BMC John Phillips III]How do you feel about checking out your people's pages? Is it an invasion of privacy or not? Or is it fair to say that Myspace is public domain?/QUOTE]


I absolutely feel that it is public domain. As the owner of a MYSPACE account i dont put anything up that I don't want my crew to see. It's no diffrent that talking about it on the messdeck. If you are dumb enough to broadcast it to the world than be ready to be judged by the world.

IMHO

ETC D

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

John, they're putting it there ....for people to read. It's public domain.

[FSC Chris Stewart]

My Space is a free site just like this one. Its open to anyone to read. Its not a invasion of privacy. For those folks that have beer cans in their hands SO WHAT. You can't prove they were drinking can you?

[BMC John Phillips III]

SO WHAT

Would that really be your thoughts if you saw one of your under 21 subordinates with a half empty bottle of rum in their hand? What if they were at a party and you saw drugs in the picture, would you say so what, I can't prove they were using them?

I am just curious.

My only hesitation is why am I looking at their "myspace?" Other than that, I feel as if anything they post on there, if it be illegal and I know about it, it's my duty to do something about. I guess it's kind of like when a cop catches you for speeding, you don't always get a ticket, but sometimes you are going so fast, he really has no choice but to.

[FSC Chris Stewart]

John,

OK Ok I guess I have a double standard. Drugs, and items that go along with drugs you have to do something about it.

But beer? I just don't see how it would hold up. Can it be used as a great counseling tool YES.

My thoughts on "Myspace" Its a public place. But I don't want look as Beer police.

Chris

[BMC John Phillips III]

Chris,

I am not saying anything about you, but it's been my experience that most people that do not have a problem with underage drinking, did. Now that's still not a completely negative statement either, because I am big on credibility and what credibility does a person have when they use the "do as I say not as I do" or did in this case style? Anyway, I am very strongly against underage drinking, mostly because I didn't until I was 22.

Anyway, I think I would be smack dab in the middle of "So What" and "Beer Police." Can that be a happy medium?

[ETC Brian Strattard]

If you don't trust your personel to conduct themselves appropriately in their personal lives...why are they trusted to maintain CG equipment, drive smallboats, handle money or personal paperwork, etc...??? What next, following them on a port call...I don't think so...there are more active coasties, former coasties, friends of coasties on the net to police our personel's activities for us. If you check one of your people's pages you need to check them all, would those that don't use their real names be required to list all of their internet sites with their command's??? Don't we already have enough on our plates as is???

You have to trust your people, and by actively looking for ways they screw up outside of work does not look good as a LEADER to me...

If you are truley concerned, let them know in an all hands meeting that what they put on the web may negatively effect them at work...shouldn't OPSEC and internet security trainings cover this as well???

My two cents...

Strat sends...

[MSTC Michael Schmidtke]

My Space is a free site just like this one. Its open to anyone to read. Its not a invasion of privacy. For those folks that have beer cans in their hands SO WHAT. You can't prove they were drinking can you?

I'll go one step further....since everyone has the opinion that a picture is worth a 1000 words.....say your "best non-rate" had posted a picture on his/her myspace account with 20 beer cans on the table next to them......and he/she comes back to say that they were the DD that night, and after your investigation proves their statement was true....would you jump to the same conclusion the next time you saw one of your people in the same situation? Not everyone drinks at a party. Yes, most do. I can see the reverse in my situation. Even if the individual was in uniform, if it is proven that that person didn't drink and was there to drive the drunks home....how is that bringing discredit to the Coast Guard?

I think that folks try to make to many things that are grey....black and white and you can't do that. Every situation is different! :cool: ???

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

There is no doubt this would be a dumb thing to do.. but as an OIC I would not hold a mast on someone that did this. I would also bet your Group/Sector commander or District legal office would say the same thing....

Perhaps a good counseling, maybe even a page 7 held in the OIC drawer for awhile. These people often do things to "show off" we all did them as kids. I would encourage them to make their profile private

The world is much different than when I grew up.. As kids we went outside to play, ride bikes or whatever...now they stay in on the computer, or get on a cell phone. Sometimes advanced technology is not always a good thing.

Wray.. :cool:

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I've never gone into one of those sites to look for people who work for me. But if I was directed into it, I would follow what I found there. When the subject of Myspace came up here last year I went in to look at the profile that the people were talking about. I looked at the "My Friends" he had listed. Lots of Coasties whose major theme revolved around getting drunk. I was at a training Command recently and someone told me about Utube. Apparently a video that was posted on there was used as evidence in someone's Mast proceedings.
I don't follow people on port calls. I don't delve into their personal lives looking for something to get them on. But people talk. Stupid people talk alot about stuff that they never should. If someone told me about something going on at my command, I'm going to look into it.

Chris, Beer is a drug. If your drinking under the legal age, you're illegal using a drug. You're choosing not to make it a big deal. You should look at those finds from the PACAREA focus group.

Strat, maybe problems that they're having at work, stem from what they're doing off work. Question for you.........if someone who worked for you told you that you should look at one of your non-rates My Space accounts, and you went in there, ...and saw pictures of the romantically involved with the wife of another one of your subordinates...... would you do anything about it?

We do monthly room inspections of the UPH down here. If I go in a room and see contraband, I notify the person's Command. If you one my people has an empty beer can collection, I tell them they need to look for other hobbies...... If you see ashes on the table tops, you remind them that smoking isn't authorized in the building.......

[CWO Larry Philipp (ETC)]

In one sense, I'm with Chief Strat on the fact that I don't feel a need (or didn't while active) to surf for Internet content posted by my charges.

In the other, if it comes up as an issue in the workspace from others, then I guess it becomes another aspect of resolving if that person's behavior is illegal, bringing discredit on the Coast Guard, or simply something you pull the person aside and ask "Do you realize how stupid this looks?"

Context is everything.

Actively looking? No. Resolving something that broaches in front of you? Yes.

My two cents,
Larry

[ETC Brian Strattard]

Stu,

I agree with the fact that if someone is having problems at work it is the command's responsibility to find out why and help that individual resolve their issues to become productive again. That would be cause to do some investigating since there is obviously a problem that needs to be figured out...

That said, if there is no problem or cause, there is no need to go snooping. Barracks or government housing inspections are a requirement to living there, but we don't go inspecting personnel in off-base housing right...just like you don't single someone out for a drug test with no evidence that they are doing drugs...

If people talk about something others should not be posting, that proves my point that we have others to police our people, if it is intentional or just being stupid...then you have a leg to stand on to take appropriate action.

Strat sends...

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

"But if I was directed into it, I would follow what I found there."

Directed by who? A disgruntled BM3 wants you to see what the BM2 is doing? .. Nope, sorry I don't buy it.. that is what they have CGIS for.

A room inspection is something entirely different.

Wray.. :cool:

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Wray,
yeah, the scenario with the disgruntled BM3. You're in counseling that BM3 and he says, you should see what the BM2 puts on his myspace site..........I'd have to look. If I had that same BM3 in for counseling about an inappropriate relationship the he was having with someone at the unit and he said "So and so is dating so and so also, why aren't you talking to them....." I'd follow that up as well. I have to go where the allegations take me.
I was talking about this with someone who just had a family member finishing up law school. On their job applications it asked if you had a myspace account. Companies were checked those sites for what they deemed to be inappropriate content before they hired someone.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

"On their job applications it asked if you had a myspace account. Companies were checked those sites for what they deemed to be inappropriate content before they hired someone."

Inappropriate content ??? Only if you make it innapropriate... But, regardless... I'm not here to discuss all the pros & cons of my space.. I just voiced my opinion on the earlier post..

Like I said, those that have them should probably make them "private" accounts.. if they are in any way concerned about them...

"I have to go where the allegations take me." Just remember, you are not CGIS. There are boundries, and just because you are an OIC you cant cross them all...

I'm done with this thread..... Sea ya at the next one.

Wray.. :cool:

[BMC Ken Gouge]

There is no guidance on the use of MySpace or UTube as far as the release of information. I have been told it is in the works...we will see.

Don't know if it was COMDT mandated or not, but on my Cutter (and a few others I know) internet acces to myspace has been blocked on WSIII. The IT did it by direction of someone, and I don't think it was the skipper. Could be a secter, area or whatever directive.

[BMC John Phillips III]

If you don't trust your personel to conduct themselves appropriately in their personal lives...why are they trusted to maintain CG equipment, drive smallboats, handle money or personal paperwork, etc...???
Brian, I don't think it's a case of not trusting your people, I think it's a case of gaining or losing trust. Just like at work, they have to gain your trust before using said equipment, boats etc., until they give you a reason not to, i.e., they run aground, or maybe the boat comes back with a bent prop and no one knows anything about it.


You have to trust your people, and by actively looking for ways they screw up outside of work does not look good as a LEADER to me...
Just as turning a blind eye to something that is flagrantly wrong doesn't look like a good leader to me.


If you are truley concerned, let them know in an all hands meeting that what they put on the web may negatively effect them at work...shouldn't OPSEC and internet security trainings cover this as well???

I personally have already brought this up with more than one command. Just as a precautionary measure for people to think about the things they are posting on the internet for all to see.


say your "best non-rate" had posted a picture on his/her myspace account with 20 beer cans on the table next to them......and he/she comes back to say that they were the DD that night.
..........
I think that folks try to make to many things that are grey....black and white and you can't do that. Every situation is different! :cool: ???
Mike, you present a good scenerio, but I don't think being in a picture with beer is a dead giveaway someone was drinking, but in most of the myspace pictures I have seen with youngin's drinking, it's pretty obvious by the body language and look on their face that they are in fact drinking the alcoholic beverage in their hands or drinking from the beer bong tube that is stuck in their mouth. Although I guess that person could use a former pres's defense and say they put it to their mouth but didn't swallow (or inhale as it would be).

For the record, I am a black and white type, not a big fan of gray skies, areas or situations.

[BMC John Phillips III]

Directed by who? A disgruntled BM3 wants you to see what the BM2 is doing? .. Nope, sorry I don't buy it.. that is what they have CGIS for.

Wray are you seriously suggesting that CGI be asked to investigate a report you receive from a disgruntled worker? I may not put too much stock in it depending on the source, but on the other hand, it may be valid and I would not dismiss it. I would check it out myself (without saying anything to the disgruntled BM3) then if the allegations were false, I would hold him to the fire, just as if they were true, I would hold the BM2 accountable.

that's just me.

edited to add, I was reading in order and did not see that you were done with this thread. Borderline "political" eh? :D

For S#!+s and Giggles, I decided to search "Coast Guard" on Youtube, go behind the closed door to see something alarming. (not a young Coastie, but CG related.)

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Ok John, one last one for you ;)

"Wray are you seriously suggesting that CGI be asked to investigate a report you receive from a disgruntled worker?"

No not at all... I think this whole My Space stuff is BS.. I don't think as an OIC I would be tracking down what people did on their liberty time, on their home computer. If they do something serious enough CGIS (we dont have CGI any more) could get involved. I know Coasties would never go to sites they are not supposed to during the work day... on a government computer.. huh?

When you are talking about someones personal computer, you would need search warrants etc.. like I said, I wouldn't worry about it... If they do something real bad My Space will throw 'em off.

Hope that helped...

Wray.. :cool:

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Wray, I know we keep dragging you back into the discussion, but I'm not looking at their computer. I'm looking at what they give me access to from mine. I'm not violating thier private spaces, I'm looking at what they post on the internet for who ever wants to read it. And again to set the record straight, I've never looked up anyone who has worked for me. But if someone who did was brought to my attention,....I'd pay attention.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Stu, would you follow them to a nude beach? ;)

I see your point, just not sure the CG normally digs that deep...

My opinion...

Wray... :cool:

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Wray,
I was probably heading that way anyhow.

[GMCM Bill Wells (Ret)]

As Steve notes, "If you have photos of yourself in umm, lets just say compromising positions and then you also have photos of you receiving an award in uniform on your MySpace site, then you are bringing discredit to the service."

In other words, don't crap in your OWN flat hat. I know, most don't know what a flat hat is and it isn't the "Duck" hat, but the same applies.

[AMTCM John Long]

Wray, I know we keep dragging you back into the discussion, but I'm not looking at their computer. I'm looking at what they give me access to from mine. I'm not violating thier private spaces, I'm looking at what they post on the internet for who ever wants to read it. And again to set the record straight, I've never looked up anyone who has worked for me. But if someone who did was brought to my attention,....I'd pay attention.

Stu,

I seen on tv recently where the human resource folks are already searching these websites to see if prospective employees have anything posted. I wouldn't doubt our folks are going there also to see who is posting what.

John

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Nude beach Wray? Kinda hard to bring discredit to the CG if not wearing clothes. Now if we park at the pier, take off unitfom and walk over.......just kidding.

I would look into it and hold anyone at my unit accounable. It is the same if you hear about a party with underage people. Do you look into that? Maybe. Intrusive leadership, yes but you may save someones career. No body made senior officers buy that last issue oof playboy with the air force Sgt in it but I bet many did and held her accounable. Same thing at My Space, if you discredit the CG or do something against the core values your command should hold you accounable.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

I seen on tv recently where the human resource folks are already searching these websites to see if prospective employees have anything posted. I wouldn't doubt our folks are going there also to see who is posting what. John


I heard a story on NPR (I have an hour commute and no other news radio stations to listen to without all the political-babble) a few months back talking about a service that will scan the internet, postings, sites etc. and work to get the offending material removed prior to people applying for jobs.

Often times, the people applying don't know there was anything on the web about them.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

I would look into it and hold anyone at my unit accounable...Same thing at My Space, if you discredit the CG or do something against the core values your command should hold you accounable.

Burt...I agree with what you've said here. If something was brought to my attention, I'd look into it and take the appropriate action.

[CWO Larry Philipp (ETC)]

Steve,

I regularly admit to listening to NPR... :D

....and Rush, and Sean, too. As a courier logging about 1100 miles a week, I find they all babble and have their own spin. It's fun contrasting NPR's coverage, and say Hannity's.

Larry

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Thanks Larry,

I believe in seeking information from more than one source and then coming up with my own thoughts and opinions on the subject.

Should I also admit to reading the NY Times and Washington POst Online everyday, or would that be pushing it?

[GMCM Bill Wells (Ret)]

if you discredit the CG or do something against the core values your command should hold you accounable.

I knew the Core Values were instruments of punishment. This was not their intended use. This is why I have opposed them for so many years. The Core Values are just sloganeering gone wrong.

Where in the UCMJ or MCM does it mention the Core Values?

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Then how would you use them Bill? How can any organization say they have "core values" and not hold poeple accountable to there meaning? They look good on the wall outside the elevator but you don't teach them? I could have just said I would place them on report for Art 124 of the UCMJ but by using the Core values you teach young folks to think of these when faced with decisions that could be a detrement to thier career.

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

Our core values are the foundation for the corporate culture that we try to establish in the Coast Guard. We must "stand for something". If we don't hold people accoutable for what we stand for, then we will never have the corporate culture that we espouse to. We will be weak as an organization. Honor, Respect, Devotion to Duty. That is what WE as an organization, stand for.

[BMC John Phillips III]

I knew the Core Values were instruments of punishment. This was not their intended use. This is why I have opposed them for so many years. The Core Values are just sloganeering gone wrong.

Where in the UCMJ or MCM does it mention the Core Values?

Bill you never cease to amaze me. In one thread you talk about how you brought the Coast Guardsman's Creed to the attention of the MCPOCG and now you say the Core Values are just sloganeering gone wrong. I can only assume it's because you didn't write them or find them on some old "post card."

http://www.ratlines.com/creed_of_the_u_s_coast_guardsman.htm

I revere that long line of expert seamen who by their devotion to duty and sacrifice of self have made it possible for me to be a member of a service honored and respected, in peace and in war, throughout the world.

I don't get it.

I don't think anyone is using the Core Values as "Instruments of punishment" I think they are using the idiotic things that people do that aren't in accordance with the Core Values as an instrument of punishment.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Bill, the core values are what everyone in the CG must adhere to. Those that don't could be considered derelict in their duties; that's in the UCMJ. The CG's core values aren't in the Uniformed Code of Military Justice. Why would they be?
They may be a slogan to you, but some of us actually believe in them.

[GMCM Bill Wells (Ret)]

Wow, the Head Kommisar of korporate propaganda has been working overtime since 1990 -- when the so-called core values were invented, as in made up.

Yep, that's right folks. They were made up and have no historical substance. They are just words sort as in "Just do it!"

I am sure some person, after the Coast Guardsman's Creed was found again, went back and underlined some words but do not forget the CGm's Creed was written about 1950. Makes one wonder where it was before.

If someone violates the UCMJ they are violating statutory law and not some cultural buzz words. The core values were not part of any award requirement until the infamous Ancient Mariner affair. Then suddenly the corporate concept began appearing as a punishable requirement. However, the core values are highly subjective and have become rigid in scope and meaning.

I would like to see some one (without using the CG's official website explanation) break down each word and show how it is supposed to be used. I am sure you will find no punitive function to them. That was not the intent but people being people that is what they became.

I've seen the core values used against dead people, but ignored for other dead people. I once asked a former MCPO-CG if there was some sort of statute of limitations on the punitive nature of the values and, if so, what is it? Or do the core values apply to those people around before they were invented? I never received an answer. Perhaps the CPOA should hold a seminar on the topic of core values to iron out the thorny problems of using them as an instrutment of punishment.

As no one thought is odd that all government agencies suddenly acquired "core values" at the same time?

May someone be punished for another's interpertation of an adjective or philisophical attribute?

[BMCS Burt Ford]

If someone violates the UCMJ they are violating statutory law and not some cultural buzz words. The core values were not part of any award requirement until the infamous Ancient Mariner affair.

So what your saying is, if the Commandant orders us to adhere to these "buzz words", we dont have to because they are not in the UCMJ? Some how I think disoeying an order is some where in the UCMJ and with that, we may hold anyone in the CG accountable.

[GMCM Bill Wells (Ret)]

So what your saying is, if the Commandant orders us to adhere to these "buzz words", we dont have to because they are not in the UCMJ? Some how I think disoeying an order is some where in the UCMJ and with that, we may hold anyone in the CG accountable.

If the commandant makes such an order, which none have so far, then there would have to be some legislation passed by the congress placing them in the UCMJ or in the procedures of the MCM.

That said, the government would have to establish a "uniform" set of core values. If they did not then any charges brought by the individual services for violating them would be thrown out of court or most certainly on appeal because of the varying standards.

Then too, someone would have to define them, which no one has done either. It is just a slogan of TQM. The terms are far too subjective to be used in a punitive way and should be removed from all award requirements.

Why not just use the service motto? It has meaning and history. I'm sure the Marine Corps has similiar core values, but what do you hear from the Marines -- "Semper Fi"---that tells it all. If you're going to put personal attributes on an intangible then it should be one with some service background and not from some management theory.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Bill,............take a deep breathe........... everything historical has a beginning. You don't have to find significance in our core values, we find enough in them for everyone. Take respect.........I respect the fact that you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how misguided that opinion may be. You should start ending your sentences with the catch phrase ...."to me." Used in a sentence like ...The CG Core Values have no historical significance to me. I'd let that slide. But you state it as fact, which it is not. If you're right the core values have been around in the Coast Guard for 17 years. That's longer than many of us. So let's compromise again, ....everyone on active duty who signed up before they were implemented, and hasn't re-enlisted since they started, can follow whatever system they used prior to 1990. They rest of us will adhere to the things that we swore an oath to uphold.

You can continue to think that we're all sheep, or communists, or bobble headed yes-men.......what ever gets you through the night. But those of us on active duty still have an obligation to fulfill.

And the infamous Ancient Mariner incident.......is no longer that infamous. Most people reading this don't even know to what you are referring. Most of the rest of us don't care. You want to talk about historical signifance........ask how many people care who gets the Ancient Mariner award. The Ancient Mariner award to closer to being a Nike slogan than the Coast Guard Core Values are. Ask anyone who still cares.

[HSC Chris Fly]

Bill,
Please don't start the Core Values debate on this site as well! As Stu said, most us like and uphold the Core Values. Please don't try to pi$$ on our Coast Guard.....
Chris

[ETC Brian Strattard]

Bill...

Wow, the Head Kommisar of korporate propaganda has been working overtime since 1990 -- when the so-called core values were invented, as in made up. Yep, that's right folks. They were made up and have no historical substance. They are just words sort as in "Just do it!" I am sure some person, after the Coast Guardsman's Creed was found again, went back and underlined some words but do not forget the CGm's Creed was written about 1950. Makes one wonder where it was before.

Sooooo...why isn't it the so-called Coast Guardsman's Creed? After all...it is just words made up by someone long ago??? Just like the Core Values??? Or is it because you're claiming you revived it...is that why it has substance? The Core Values mean something to me and to my fellow chiefs. We are the ones at the helm of the CG today, and we are the ones responsible for preparing the CG for the challenges of the future. Is it your inability to adapt that draws you to history...that makes you want to remain relevent by dropping obscure hisorical facts. It seems that many of your posts center around you and your historical knowledge...You definantly know where the CG has been...but do you know where the CG is going? Obviously not if you are content to disrespect our Core Values but adhere to the Coast Guardsman's Creed...they are essentially the same thing...a concept to bring pride, ownership and motivation to our personnel. After all...they were both "made up" by someone at some point...if you don't like where the CG is headed...look at it this way...it was your generation that laid the foundation for today's generation. If we're turning into a communist corporation...isn't it your fault for not looking to the future???

Strat sends...

[BMC John Phillips III]

They were made up and have no historical substance. They are just words sort as in "Just do it!"

Here's another "just made up" slogan, it was coined by a singer by the name of Whitney Houston, "Crack is whack."

If you're going to put personal attributes on an intangible then it should be one with some service background and not from some management theory.

You show me one corporation that has something even close to "Devotion to Duty," and I will show you a highly successful company. Better yet, just get me one corporate employee to explain the definition of "duty" and then I will concede they are just a corporate slogan.

Is it your inability to adapt that draws you to history...that makes you want to remain relevent by dropping obscure hisorical facts. It seems that many of your posts center around you and your historical knowledge...You definantly know where the CG has been...but do you know where the CG is going? ..............it was your generation that laid the foundation for today's generation. If we're turning into a communist corporation...isn't it your fault for not looking to the future???

Strat sends...

Very very very well said.

[GMCM Bill Wells (Ret)]

No one is pissing on the Coast Guard. I would think that a bunch of free thinking chiefs would have more of an idea of what the core values are than grouping of left over attributes. You are aware that most of the good ones were already taken by the time the Coast Guard got around to theirs, aren't you?

I would seem to me that since so many believe in them they could explain what they are if called upon. Simply saying you believe is not sufficient. I've presented the any number of reasons for what they really are not.

I have even seen comments that concur with my punitive comments. They are used to deter people from inappropriate actions? This is for what the UCMJ is used?

C'mon guys. Y'all can do better than this. Tell me why as if I just came aboard on the midwatch.

[BMC John Phillips III]

I would think that a bunch of free thinking chiefs would have more of an idea of what the core values are than grouping of left over attributes. You are aware that most of the good ones were already taken by the time the Coast Guard got around to theirs, aren't you?
Bill, first semantics, now condescension? What's next?

I would seem to me that since so many believe in them they could explain what they are if called upon.
They mean diffferent things to different people, but ultimately they are a guidelines to model your behavior and actions by. We covered that at the Academy.

C'mon guys. Y'all can do better than this. Tell me why as if I just came aboard on the midwatch.
Back to me and my propensity for calling things like I see them, but I see this last quote as damage control, your ship is going down fast and now you are trying to get us to bail you out, by showing everyone what a great lesson you taught us. How you single handedly got the Active Duty Chiefs to think about the true meaning of the Coast Guard's Core Values and how they shouldn't be used as a "tool for punishment."

Sorry dude, I am just not buying what you're selling.

Anyone want to talk about "myspace?"

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Ok Bill Just for you.

Honor-you should honor the chiefs mess by honoring our core value.

Respect-you should respect our chiefs mess by respecting our core values.

Devotion to Duty-you should devote your duty to assist us in ensuring out CG believes and adheres to these core values.

You should redirect your misguided atempt to degrade our values and devote your retired years to supporting the CG you left.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

What a great debate!

Here's what I think. Bill is right.

The core values weren't burned into stone by the hand of God. They were probably plagiarized by some junior officer in a cubicle. They have no legal bearing and most of us wouldn't agree as to their specific meaning.

I had never considered their origin until I read this thread. Thank you, Bill.

However, here's where Bill goes wrong...

It doesn't make a damn bit of difference where they orginated. It doesn't matter that we can't agree on their specific meanings. What does matter is that those core values resonate with us. They seem to fit even with their obscure beginnings and muddled definitions.

Honor, Respect, and Devotion to Duty might be a cheap catchphrase, but I'll be damned if it doesn't make me sit up a little straighter.

A point of argument- To my knowledge, no one has ever been court martialed or masted and charged with a violation of the core values.

You know why you guys get so pissed at Bill? It's because he's just right enough that you can't dismiss him, and just wrong enough (also arrogant and self absorbed) that you have to reply.

I love this guy (in a purely platonic way, of course).

[BMC Eddie Lawrence]

I am so confused but what else is new? I log on and start reading a bunch of post about myspace accounts and how John is looking at all of them and really having a lot of fun even watching youtube! And then Stu joins in and and were all having a toast to myspace and youtube! Then somewhere about half way, (oh well who can remember when) we fall into this discussion about umm, now what topic were we on here?

John and Stu just having some fun brothers trying to lighten up a little. Fire back!

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Dennis, you're not even close to the reason that Bill tends to piss me off. I can't see past how he thumbs his nose at everything "new" and acts like the rest of us should give two squirts of duck shit about everything old, to see what point he's trying to make. He comes in looking for an arguement, but doesn't listen to what other people say, he just shifts gears and talks about some other obscure reference that no one else cares about to make his point that has no point here.

Bill, history is everything. You have a history of pissing on the Coast Guard. You have an extremely condesending way of talking to people who don't agree with you. Honor, Respect, and Devotion to Duty are left over attributes ? Why is my back wet ? And don't tell me its raining.

[BMC John Phillips III]

Then somewhere about half way, (oh well who can remember when) we fall into this discussion about umm, now what topic were we on here?

Ed, at your age, it's either your memory or your reading glasses that is the reason you don't know what topic we are on. If I were you, I would go with the reading glasses defense :p

[AMTCM John Long]

Good thread. I'll cast in a line.

Here's my take on it. Often times I have seen the term Core Values preface messages or emails dealing with discipline or some negative behavior. I'll have to confirm but I think the Good Order and Discipline site has the phrase mentioned somewhere in the text. We would need to go back to the original ALCOAST to verify what the original intent of the Core Values was. I believe when they came out they were supposed to instill a sense of pride in CG affiliation. They were supposed to be a service motto, a guiding light maybe??? Have they now quietly become too aligned with discipline? Could be.... A good litimus test would be to ask one of your young folks what they believe the purpose of the Core Values are. If the response ends up around discipline, maybe the point of intent/association could made.

It's something to think about.

BTW...For those with good memories, wasn't the original wording modified circa Vince Patton??

John

[GMCM Bill Wells (Ret)]

Bill, history is everything. You have a history of pissing on the Coast Guard. You have an extremely condesending way of talking to people who don't agree with you. Honor, Respect, and Devotion to Duty are left over attributes ? Why is my back wet ? And don't tell me its raining.

Stuart, I, of course, disagree with you assessment. What I find, or the most part, in those who disagree with me, is a lack of understanding of what is being said or done.

I asked for a meaning for what the so-called core values stood. Only Dennis has made the attempt. Everyone else has been in lock-step with company speak or uttered "because."

Dennis is correct. The intent of the core values when created in 1990 to was to provide a psychological uplift. However, the original intent was targeted to a civilian corporate arena and not a military service that already had mechanisms in place to accomplish the same thing. This is what made the artificial "values" phoney.


Virtually everything that has been written about TQM explicitly draws on the works of W. Edwards Deming, Joseph Juran, and Kaoru Ishikawa, the primary authorities of the TQM movement (for a review, see Crosby, 1989). Rather than providing here a precis of their writings, we draw on them to determine whether there exists among them (1) a coherent philosophical position that specifies the core values to be sought in TQM programs and (2) a distinctive set of interventions (structures, systems, and/or work practices) that are intended specifically to promote those values.

Source: (I am keeping with on-line sources so all may read them. There are many textual sources).

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m4035/is_n2_v40/ai_18816467

This is the original intent. However, being a hierarchial organization the Coast Guard could not dissuade itself from making them punitive which negates any goal to have them make one's back, as Dennis noted, to stand a little stiffer. As seen above, the "values" are philosophical and not tangible. How many here have sat down with their troops and had a philosophical discussion. No chief I had ever did nor did I with mine.

I am taken aback by some comments. I am simply providing the "unvarnished truth" to the situation and hopefully will provoke a little thought and some study. Do not confuse constructive comment with condensation.

It would also appear if I were that kid reporting aboard on that midwatch, I'd have to be satisfied with the slogan drummed into my head at boot camp.

So, what was that meaning? What are attributes? How do attributes help me? Are the attributes flexible? All good things to discuss. Don't the teach these things at the CPOA?

John, A good litimus test would be to ask one of your young folks what they believe the purpose of the Core Values are. If the response ends up around discipline, maybe the point of intent/association could made.

Excellent idea as was the one of revisiting the original documentation (we'll make a historian of you yet). There was a series of COMDTINST and notices about TQM. They used to be online at the DoT site.

Perhaps the core values need some organizational viagra to get them back up where they should be.

[AMTCM John Long]

Good read on the history of our Core Values.

http://www.usafa.af.mil/jscope/JSCOPE99/Kelly99.html

[DCCS Keith Wilbee]

OK since this was originally about my space and not the core values, I have a question for most of you. I was just emailed a utube video of a coastie dancing while in the galley on a cg cutter, it specifically names the cutter as well. Would you see this as inappropriate?

[ETC Brian Strattard]

Keith,

I would not consider a Coastie dancing onboard a ship as inappropriate. That's just me. It may not be adviseable though...especially if they aren't that good :D But in all seriousness...I haven't seen the video...but any video involving Coasties should be interpreted on a case by case basis...we've been trusted with making the judgement in these matters...just cause a member isn't standing at attention while being captured on film doesn't always mean they're doing something wrong...they just may be doing something stupid...

Strat sends...

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Bill why are they phony again? It seems to me that a Master Chief would have a better interpritation of their meaning. No one ever said you had to agree, after all this is the military, but as a good chief you have support the organizations intent no matter how you see it. I know I have never seen anyone say these do not really mean anything but lets get out there and share them with our Jr enlisted. I believe all the military services have them. Lets get rid of them all since they are phony.

[GMCM Bill Wells (Ret)]

Bill why are they phony again? It seems to me that a Master Chief would have a better interpritation of their meaning. No one ever said you had to agree, after all this is the military, but as a good chief you have support the organizations intent no matter how you see it. I know I have never seen anyone say these do not really mean anything but lets get out there and share them with our Jr enlisted. I believe all the military services have them. Lets get rid of them all since they are phony.

Burt, I agree. Get rid of them all. Not only do all the armed forces have them, but all uniformed services, civil agenices right down to the dog catchers. They have also been invasive of more local agenices. They were very trendy. It is easier to develop and impose a slogan than create a culture of leadership. Coke says it is the "Real Thing," but just what is the real thing? Is the real thing a core value? You bet it is to Coke.


I'm not sure as a retiree I am required to support them. It is a mixed bag. A MCPO sure, but also someone who has always been able to think for himself. I understand an active duty person following along, but the officer corps (that invented them) should be able to provide some intent on which to base followship.

If, as you say, they don't mean anything then why have them and they are being pushed anyway as if they do have meaning. I recommend reading the paper John graciously provided on the topic (I'm still wondering why it is on an Air Force website and not the Coast Guard's). Read it though and we'll talk about it tomorrow. I've already got a few comments in mind.

Perhaps begin another thread under Leadership.

[GMCM Bill Wells (Ret)]

Keith,

I would not consider a Coastie dancing onboard a ship as inappropriate. That's just me. ..

Strat, It is highly appropriate but only on the port side. The Starboad side belongs to the officers. Sailors dancing aboard ship is traditional.

What none have ever been to a humpday dance?

[ETC Brian Strattard]

Sweet...

Next time I'm U/W the dance-off is on...I just pitty those that may have to watch that trainwreck...

Strat sends...

[BMC John Phillips III]

I haven't seen the video...but any video involving Coasties should be interpreted on a case by case basis...

I agree, I'd have to see the video to make a fair assessment, as you have described it, I don't see anything wrong. There's a video of me floating around somewhere doing my best Vanilla Ice impression as a non-rate, I hope that never makes it to the internet. (It was for video skit night - morale, everyone said it would have been funnier if deck force kicked my ass half way thru - hindsight is 20/20).

Burt, I agree. Get rid of them all. Not only do all the armed forces have them

Bill, who was it that said, "If you don't stand for something, you stand for nothing." or is that just another meaningless slogan too?

[ETC John D Zidek]

ETC Brian Strattard
we've been trusted with making the judgement in these matters...just cause a member isn't standing at attention while being captured on film doesn't always mean they're doing something wrong...they just may be doing something stupid...

Strat sends...

Strat I Agree,

I think we (old Guys) forgot how dumb we were (some still are) and what kind of stupid things we did (and do still)

Being at a training center I see students doing things and we talk about it and at aome point someone always says "What a stupid thing to do what were they thinking."

I think its very easy to look at these things thru our thirty (forty) something eyes and say that, but then I think about how dumb I was and how lucky.

Thinking back and doing alittle risk assesment, there is no way I would be sprinting full speed downhill from the Paladium in SF to get to that last BART train of the night (Did I mention it was trash night and we were.......under the influence...to put it mildly. hurdling over giant mountains of trash.

Young and stupid kind of go together. Before we jump on these young people we need to sit back and realize that most are fresh out of mommas nest and just don't know any better. We need to be the ones that guide them into making good decisions.

[BMC John Phillips III]

Funny thing today, there was an email sent out to the Sector/tenant commands talking about use of Myspace and what not. I won't go into details, but I have to say the timing was kind of ironic.

[MKCM Brett Ayer]

[QUOTE=GMCM Bill Wells (Ret)]I am sure some person, after the Coast Guardsman's Creed was found again, went back and underlined some words but do not forget the CGm's Creed was written about 1950. Makes one wonder where it was before.QUOTE]

Wrong Bill. I won't go into the rest of your post, no time now. Our Core Values were written by CAPT Tom Taylor (Ret), and he didn't underline anything. If you want to know the history behind them, feel free to look him up.

Brett

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Funny thing today, there was an email sent out to the Sector/tenant commands talking about use of Myspace and what not. I won't go into details, but I have to say the timing was kind of ironic.

On another note.....I noticed the military newspapers (Navy, USAF, Army times) are now looking at the "My Space" pages as "tributes" for those killed in the war...

Wray... :cool:

[ETC Brian Strattard]

Well...looks like there is now an official??? Coast Guard account on Youtube...

http://youtube.com/uscgimagery

Free publicity I guess...

Strat sends...

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Yes, this is the Official CG Public Affairs Imagery site. If you have footage that you would like to have uploaded, work with your local PA Office, we can clear it, edit it and post it for you.

This is just another way to get imagery out there.

I posted this the other day:

http://cgchiefs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=946

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

Lot's of people cried "OPSEC" when in reality, what they cried about was taken from a Unit's own website or a public release notice.

Just be careful when you swing that "OPSEC" wand.