Boat Crew vs Air Crew Survival Suits

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Having been here almost 3 years and flying everywhere for ATON via CG Aircraft, I have discovered some differences in what I would traditionally wear(if I had a Boat) and what air crews wear. Maybe some one can teach me differently.

RSS manual states boat crew shall wear 2 layers while aircrew only wear one layer in less than 50 degree water. Having asks the air station the only answer I get is because boat crews may end up in the water longer. Now having flown here, it is far more likely, here in Kodiak, that a aircrew could be in the water for several hours or longer. For instance, when we work our "north slope" AOR, we are over 600 nm from any other CG unit.

So why the desparity in Boat crew required clothing and air crew?

[BMCS J Lucas]

I've also always wondered why aircrews have a National ensign on thier flight suits, yet boatcrews only have the CG ensign on PFD/ floatcoats/ survival suits.

Things that make you go, hmmmmm?????

I also ran across this pic on the net:

http://www.csinews.net/IntheNews/images/leadership-marshalls.jpg

We can't step off the 25' while u/w to go get a subway with our weapons, but these guys can go to a, what appears to be some sort of council meeting, with long guns strapped on?

[AMTCM John Long]

Hey Burt,

I'm not sure why the difference either. I can ask the resident experts here in HQ if you want.

We wear the black/gray liners underneath the dry suits. The liners come in (at least they did up till a couple of years ago) summer and winter styles. If it is butt cold (teens or lower), I'll wear thermals underneath the liner.

To share some chilling experiences, up in the Great Lakes when hoisting, the fingers loose feeling after a few minutes and you have a difficult time moving the thumbs. Eye lashes will freeze together if we hit spray and you blink. If it's cold enough, the RS will actually come up with ice pieces falling off. It's probably alot worse for the boat crews underneath the rotorwash for any length of time. Hats off to those folks.

[MKC Craig Thorngren (Ret)]

Jeff,
Sad part is that the long guns are disabled... Look at the flex cuff or wire tie going through the loading port on the shotgun... If you trust them to carry the weapons on the water, why not on land (with the bullets...).

Craig

[BMCS J Lucas]

Jeff,
Sad part is that the long guns are disabled... Look at the flex cuff or wire tie going through the loading port on the shotgun... If you trust them to carry the weapons on the water, why not on land (with the bullets...).

Craig

Good catch, Craig. I hadn't even noticed that.

As for your quote, I'm with you. I am a federal officer w/ the US Fish and Wildlife Service in the real world. I couldn't even fathom having to go into a room and being told to put a flex-cuff through my Glock. The embarrasement would kill me. I have said for years, the CG needs to either get all-in or all-out of LE. Could you imagine the press report if someone came into that room with the intent to harm one of those folks, and the coasties are taken out, what the crime scene photos would look like w/ four dead coasties lying there with wire ties through thier guns?? Are we cops or not!! I honestly would have told whoever told me to go in there, but put a flex-cuff through your gun, to pack sand and do it yourself. Now I can understand the looks on those guys. What an slap in the face!!

Sorry for the off-topic rant. It just chaps me that the CG can't get it right in the relm of LE after over 200 yrs.

Out.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

John,
Ask away. I just wonder why there is not the same requirement. Yes they use summer and winter, one layer is all required. I was hoping an AST might chime in.

Burt

[AMTCM John Long]

John,
Ask away. I just wonder why there is not the same requirement. Yes they use summer and winter, one layer is all required. I was hoping an AST might chime in.

Burt

Stand by..........

[ASTC Ronny German]

After reading the initial post in this thread, I read the applicable chapters in the Air Ops, Aviation Life Support Systems, Helicopter Rescue Swimmer and Rescue and Survival Systems Manuals. As stated, the Rescue and Survival Systems manual requires a thin wicking layer to be worn under the dry suit undergarments while the other three manuals do not mention this requirement.

From my experience as a Rescue Swimmer, there are alot of different types of dry suit undergarments out there, some are self wicking and some are not. As stated in the Rescue and Survival Systems manual, the purpose of the first or wicking layer is to wick the moisture away from the body to avoid hypothermia. This practice is recomended not only with a dry suit but any time you are exposed to cold temperatures.

As to the origional question "why the disparity", I guess the only two things I can think of is 1. The Rescue and Survival Systems manual is brand new and the other manuals will "catch up" in the future. and 2. Air crews although not mandated to wear two layers, will do so if the undergarment they are wearing is not self wicking.

[CWO Chris Sparkman (BMC)]

We wear the black/gray liners underneath the dry suits. The liners come in (at least they did up till a couple of years ago) summer and winter styles. If it is butt cold (teens or lower), I'll wear thermals underneath the liner.

Master Chief...are you talking about the Exotherms from USIA? If not, and your using something different, disregard.

I ask because for a while the Exotherms were being worn as a first layer under the drysuits. I have to check and I don't have the RSS manual here at home to quote, but I believe you should not be wearing the Exotherms against the skin. They are not considered 1st layer clothing. They are 2nd layer.

If you are wearing your Drysuit with only 1 layer, it should be poly pro's or something equivalent. Now, hit the 50/50 box and the Exotherms go on over the Poly's.

Why would this not be the same for an aircrew? The water don't care if you came from a boat or the air, it will still hypo you the same.

CS

[CWO Chris Sparkman (BMC)]

I also ran across this pic on the net:

Well, I'm thinking that this is 4 coasties that were asked to dress up in all the different types of uniforms we possibly have and go parade in front of some folks at a meeting. Maybe a civilian working group that has been hired to find one outfit for our LE side of the house????

Take a look. You got the Drysuit outfit, the Float Coat outfit, the Working Suit (Mustang) and what appears maybe to be a Air Crew drysuit? I don't know, maybe someone was trying to make a point to someone about how many different types of mixing and matching we have in our inventory.

Really, do we do pre-briefs with weapons that have flex cuffs through them? I don't know, maybe we do. What would be the point to have flex cuffs disabling the weapons? Maybe to make the civilians feel better?

Just my opinion of the picture. Other wise, there aint much uniformitity(I think I just made that word up) in that team.....anyone know the origin of the picture? Anyone recognize any of them? If so, call and ask, "what's up with the photo". Maybe it's OPS normal....


CS

[AMTCM John Long]

Chris,

To be honest I don't recall the manufacture/type of liner. I would always wear a shirt/skivves/socks as the base, then a liner, then the suit. If very cold, then add thermals. If ultra cold (Great Lakes, UP), then two sets of thermals. Sometimes ski gloves, a fleece hoodie, a neoprene snow mobile type face mask. Boots were Sorrels with the heavy duty liners. One thing about the any type clothing item for airdales, we have to be careful in regards to the static build-up it might produce. Bad stuff when refueling.

Like Ronny was talking about, the liners I have are self-wicking. They usually do a good job of removing the sweat. On the flip side, too much sweating and the liners can't keep up. The base (shivves or thermals) get saturated in sweat. That's bad.

I tried to see the survival systems CWO (former ASTC) up here in HQ yesterday....no joy. I'll try again today. If he has anything good to say I'll post it back up.


John

[AMTCM John Long]

I tried to see the survival systems CWO (former ASTC) up here in HQ yesterday....no joy. I'll try again today. If he has anything good to say I'll post it back up.

He is on leave today and tomorrow. His name is CWO (MAT/former AST) Tom Dardis if anyone wants to email him directly. He should be able to address your suit questions.

John

[BMCS J Lucas]

Well, I'm thinking that this is 4 coasties that were asked to dress up in all the different types of uniforms we possibly have and go parade in front of some folks at a meeting. Maybe a civilian working group that has been hired to find one outfit for our LE side of the house????

Take a look. You got the Drysuit outfit, the Float Coat outfit, the Working Suit (Mustang) and what appears maybe to be a Air Crew drysuit? I don't know, maybe someone was trying to make a point to someone about how many different types of mixing and matching we have in our inventory.

Really, do we do pre-briefs with weapons that have flex cuffs through them? I don't know, maybe we do. What would be the point to have flex cuffs disabling the weapons? Maybe to make the civilians feel better?

Just my opinion of the picture. Other wise, there aint much uniformitity(I think I just made that word up) in that team.....anyone know the origin of the picture? Anyone recognize any of them? If so, call and ask, "what's up with the photo". Maybe it's OPS normal....


CS

I started a similar thread on Military.com with my pionts on this pic and CG weapons policy if you would like to check it out:

A Slap in the face!!!!! (http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6611966761/m/1960096411001)

[BMCS Burt Ford]

I have seen USIA suits, light thremals and others under the aircrews suits here.

I require my guys to wear the two layers as per RSS. Also, the dry suits themselves are considered moisture wicking.

I ask here and no body knows. One layer, one for summer and one for winter are the answers I get most often.

[AMTCM John Long]

Burt,

CWO Dardis is in today. I spoke to him a second ago. Give him a call and he will let you know what the deal is. He ran off a few of the reasons.

John