CWO without OIC Cert?

[BMC John Phillips III]

I know this has been discussed or at least mentioned in a few other threads, but I can't find a discussion that is focused solely on the matter.

I couldn't find it in the BM thread anyway and I imagine this is the place it would be.

So your thoughts on it?

I am somewhere between not caring and thinking - so long as OIC Certified applicants are given better or more consideration than their non-Certified counterparts.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

They're not, but that's from the one time I actually looked at the list closely.
I don't think that people "need" to be certified before they're allowed to go Warrant, but it would have been nice. I do think that it would also be nice if they made a person who never certified OinC to do an XO tour before they allowed them to screen for their own command.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

John, not sure what your question is, but, I think I agree with Stu... OIC certification means nothing when applying for CWO or the jobs they get afterwards...

I do believe HQ looks at their prior assignments before a "CO" assignment is handed out.....

Wray.. :cool:

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Wray I did know a couple of people who successfully screened for Command the first time after they Made Warrant, and they all had been prior OinCs. There was also a time when you had to have had Command Afloat as a Warrant in order to compete for the CO jobs on the 175's.
But like everything else, some people luck out to fill the needs of the service.

I think that people need to remember that Warrants should fall under the Officer umbrella and get all the bennies that go with it.

But to answer your question and get a better feeling for the response, John should add a poll.

[BMC John Phillips III]

I heard something to the effect of 14 of the first 17 or so Bosn's from last year were prior OIC's. I don't have the exact numbers. So maybe like everything else, things are changing?

I am not sure how to add a poll after the fact or if you even can...

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I thought I could add one, I even went in as admin, but I ended up editing my post to say that you should add one. Maybe it is a one time only deal?

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Wray I did know a couple of people who successfully screened for Command the first time after they Made Warrant, and they all had been prior OinCs

Yep, I know some like that as well... I also know some MST's that made Warrant Bosn that never got a command.. it goes both ways... like I said, I believe HQ does look at past assignment history..

Wray... :cool:

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

I discussed this subject with a "certain someone" prior to his transfer to a "certain position of authority". We disagreed at the time. I broached this subject with him again a month or so ago and another thing came up. I believe (and I may be wrong) that a BM with an OIC cert is not eligible to apply for MSS. Hmmm. That makes sense in my analytical mind (NOT). Anyway, my thought is that it would lead to a stronger Chiefs corp if it was a requirement. It is easier for Chief to make CWO than E-8 with CWO having a lower standard. In some cases, CWO may be the escape route from the OIC review board. I think that requiring the certification in at least one area would increase the quality of both BM's and CWO's. At least that is my opinion.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Jim, I've heard the OIC cert not being eligible for MSS also. Four years ago when I was on the list I was told they wouldn't even consider allowing me to apply for one of the MSO jobs on the list becasue I hadn't been stationed at one before.
I also agree that requiring at least one cert would make both sides stronger. Requiring someone to sit for the board prior to applying for Warrant might have them change their mind about which way they really want to go once they have that OinC cert.

[BMC Mark D. Emerson]

BM's with oic Cert can not apply for the MSS rating. With this they have also adjusted the MSS rating to reflect the BM, OS, MST side and a MSS/ENG for the MK, DC, and others that want to go that way. This is a change that has been published in the past couple of weeks.

As for the OIC Cert prior to CWO I think it should be a requirement. the Senior v. CWO issue is a tough one. I have my certs, am above the cut for Senior and also have my package in for CWO. It is a tough choice and each person needs to make it.

Mark

[MKC Art Bailly (ret)]

Speaking of warrants what do you think of people going from E-6 to warrant and haveing that c infront of wo. Just my opinion if you have not been a chief or at least and E-7 your title should be WO not Chief warrant officer.

[BMCS Bill Gheen]

The thread was called: Can't make 8 go BOSN

Here is the link: http://cgchiefs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=367

Below was my position then, and I havn't changed my opinion since:

"I truly question why it is allowed for someone who is either unable or unwilling to achieve Afloat and Ashore, Multi-Mission and/or ATON certifications; may be promoted to BOSN Warrant. I don’t buy the old MST argument either.

From the PERSMAN “CWOs are mature individuals with appropriate education and specialty experience who have shown through demonstrated initiative and past performance they have the potential to assume positions of greater responsibility”…

Has someone competing for BOSN Warrant with no OinC certification, demonstrated the above?

Further more, not that a lot of BM's (that I'm aware of) with OIC certification would want to compete for MSS Warrant. But if they did want to, only those that don't have OIC certifications may apply. Those that do have OIC certifications may not apply. Why (in lack of better words) punish those that have their cartifications. Why reward those that don't?

It is a BM requirement to become OIC certified. Can't make "8" go Warrant" should be abolished".

[CWO Bob Martin (QMC)]

First post on a touchy (with me) subject. My opinion: CWO(Bosn) should be required to have OIC (any) cert. BM's without OIC cert should be allowed to apply for MSS but not BOSN. I was a QMC for three years before the merger - which was needed - although I was not happy with the merger I knew it was inevitable. I did not want to play small boat station babysitter but tried because OS was not an option for me. I put in for any station-cutter XPO position ANYWHERE after going to OIC/XPO school. I was ordered to the MUNRO. Went to TACLET and the merger kicked in - again I asked for any station/cutter XPO position. Detailer offered to send me to NY as OPS until I obtained my coxn quals then he would transfer me to a station. 3 PCS moves in a two year period would have hurt my kids and wife and I was not willing to pay that price with 17 years in. The MSS warrant opened up at the right time for me. My DWO experience (10+ yrs afloat) has helped me in my job as investigations here in NOLA. MSO's (Sectors) desperately need people with ops/dwo/eng experience to conduct it's missions. I aired my laundry now flame away.

PS: The C in CWO does not and never has represented "Chief" as in Chief Petty Officer. Marines pick it up at E-5+, Army any paygrade (typically E-5+), Navy is similiar to us and none in the AF. I wouldn't mind seeing the provision that E-6 have to serve as W-1 for 18 months (like the Army) and E-7 and above continue straight to W-2. Rare for CG E-6's make warrant except for the admin/tech rates.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Rare for CG E-6's make warrant except for the admin/tech rates.

I can think of 2 real quick.. you may know them... Dave Cunningham & Tony Farr. Dave has retired, but I believe Tony is still in.

I will admit, making CWO from E-6 is rare.. Don't know that much about Tony, (see him here in Daytona occasionally) but Dave former CO of USCGC Sanibel, was also the Operations Officer when I was in Louisville. He is one sharp individual.

Wray... :cool:

[CWO Bob Martin (QMC)]

Tony's a sharp guy. He was OIC of ANT Ponce. Used to pull in a lot when I was on the HAMMER. They always had cold beer, good volleyball and dead animals on the grill. I didn't know he picked up warrant as a first. I still like the idea of W-1 for E-6.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Is Tony still in? I had my retirement at Ponce... Used to see him here for the races, but haven't seen him lately..

You were a QM on Hammer? Great duty wasn't it... I was on Anvil back in Corpus.

Wray.. :cool:

[BMCS Bill Gheen]

Tony is still in, he works at HQ. Doing a new type of job for Warrants, similar to that of an RFMC.

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

Wray, I was XPO on the ANVIL. Picked it up in Corpus and moved her to Charleston.

[BMCS Bill Gheen]

Back to the topic: CWO without OIC Cert ;)

[BMC John Phillips III]

BM's without OIC cert should be allowed to apply for MSS but not BOSN.

Considering Bill's quote of the manual, I think that's an excellent idea. Plus it makes it a little more fair considering BM's with the OIC qual can't go MSS.

As far as 1st's making CWO, I think I counted six that were ahead of me on the BMC SWE advancement list, but they all went INV. So that specialty probably has the highest amount of them. I also don't see a problem with it because the requirement is to place in the higher 50% on the exam. Which is a good opportunity or alternative for advancing when advancements are slow. The current eligibility system makes it very difficult to score high enough for the primary list as an E6 anyway, so if you do make it, you almost have to be a stellar performer.

[BMCS Bill Gheen]

Well Wray, I would really like to what you have to say, specifically with what I pointed out. Do Prattle!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Huh? Bill, if you have a question.. ask it!

Wray.... :cool:

[BMCS Bill Gheen]

You are a very opiniated person who I respect. I thought for sure you would have more to comment.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Yes I am opinionated... if you have a specific question feel free to ask it. I haven't read every post on this thread, so I don't want to duplicate things...

Wray.... :cool:

[CWO Bob Martin (QMC)]

Quick sidebar for Wray,

HAMMER was mostly good times. First OIC was awesome and old school positioning - GPS ruined the fun and my rate). Ponce was great. Senior Chief Kennovin was OIC and always made it fun to pull in. Lots of job security for ATON with all the shoaling in that area.

Take care - Bob

[CMC Bruce Bradley]

I agree with the requirement on those holding OinC quals going Bosn and those without being open to go both ways (natural CWO thing anyway isn't ti). But I don't think that we want to start discussing the requirement to hold a qual to go Bosn. There are many that end up going CWO who either by design or fate aren't lined up with the career track/performance to obtain OinC certification. And there aren't enough billets in the service to support everyone so that they can set themselves up.

They was already a meeting discussing what to do with the future of OinC quals. So let's not give them more ammo for change by making a requirement that can't be used or accessed by all.

And I like the concept of the E-6 to W-1 promotion.