Consecutive CMC tours

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

What are your thoughts on CMC's going from one CMC job to another & then another?

Is it good/bad for the individual?

Is good/bad for the Coast Guard?

Wray... :cool:

[EMC Travis Parks]

I'm OK with it as long as it continues to lead to positions of greater responsibility in the CMC world. I think it should be up or out; not out of the CG but back to the fleet to regroup, and grow. Bouncing from one district CMC job to the next seems pointless.

I'm guessing you are leaning towards the idea that these folks are losing touch with the day to day reality at the deckplate level, but the truth is we all started to lose touch the day we put on the anchor. You can not be "apart" and "a part".

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I say that it depends on the individual. We have some people in those positions that have a better understanding of what's going on at the units than the unit commanders themselves. Some of our best and brightest are in these positions. I hope they stay in them until they retire. Others......not so much.
But I also don't think that we can afford to say up or out. This year we have had several people take jobs that wouldn't be seen as upward, or even lateral movement. But they are far and away the best people for those positions. They are in some cases the only qualified people to ask for them.
We as chiefs, need to realize that these position are only ever going to be filled by the the qualified people who ask for them. It goes back to voting, if we're not willing to throw our name in the ring, we have to look for the best candidates who are willing to step up.
Our screening process for the badges is one of the best screening processes we have. Are there flaws ? Sure. We are allowing human beings to provide input. There will always be flaws. But one of the biggest flaws in this system, is that not enough qualified people are stepping up.

As far as those continuing to greater position of responsibility, I think that it's the best thing for the CG. If you get a Badge who has that history of working with the same Admiral, they already know each other. They already know their limitations. They can each just focus on their new environment, and they have that history together to help each other out.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

"I say that it depends on the individual.

Unfortunately, that will not work as a Coast Guard policy.... There wil have to be rules and guidelines.. they need to be followed.....

With that in mind, what are your thoughts?

Wray... :cool:

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Then I say pick the best person for the job regardless of how many tours they have done in it. Let all of the interested parties throw their hat into the ring, pick the best ones and shop those names to the Admirals. If the person they really wanted didn't make the cut, so sad too bad pick from those that did.
Same process for the Silver Badges, just no involvement from the Admirals. Screen those people who applied, determine who is qualified, give those names to the Special Assignment Officer, and place the best person in the right billet.
Getting the best candidates in the right positions is good for the individual, and good for the Coast Guard.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Well, that's great in theory, but lets' say after your tour on Greenbrier you put in for a CMC job.. How do you think you will stack up against someone that has had 2 tours as a CMC? They already have the experience as a CMC, know the in's and out's of the job, etc....

Still think you will have an equal shot at the job?

Wray... :cool:

[GMCM Bill Wells (Ret)]

Just what are the qualifications?

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I think everyone has an equal shot. However we do have to answer for our own actions. Are the actions I've taken in my career going to put me on a level playing field? I'll paraphrase the former Sec. of Defense..... There are things that we know, things that we don't know, and things that we know we don't know.
I don't think that I'll be eligible after I leave the GREENBRIER. It should put me at around 28 years which should disqualify me from applying. I don't think that I would be a viable candidate anyway, as I don't run well in those circles. I don't clean up well. I lack the tact, experience, and patience of the people that I respect who are currently holding some of those positions. I lack the desire to develop some of those skills that are needed. I learned at my time in the CPOA that I'm comfortable with who I am. I've met the true me, and I like hanging out with him. I'm not open to change, when I don't see the need. I'm glad we have people more qualified than I am to take on those roles. I'm glad that we have people more qualified than I am to say who is, best qualified to fill those billets.

The qualifications are listed on the special assignments web page. They're looking for exceptional performers who show an aptitude for working with people. You have to be a CPOA graduate. You can't have had an AI in the past four years. You need a command recommendation. You need to be released from rate by the detailers. And you need to successful screen for the position.
For a Gold Badge position, you then need for an Admiral to interview you and pick you up.
It's hard to see how a process can be any fairer than that. I only saw one mistake made while filling the Silver Badge positions this year, and I have faith in the system that Sonny will get picked up for a Gold Badge position in '08. If he doesn't, I'll be willing to revisit my view. I saw one mistake with a Gold Badge who wasn't initially picked up, but the system still worked, and he was put in a Gold Badge position where we can all benefit from his wisdom.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Perhaps he didn't get picked up because some others out there are in their 3rd or 4th consecutive CMC billet :eek:

Wray... :cool:

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

No he didn't get picked up because people didn't like his lack of underway experience. He was just coming off a Gold Badge tour, and was replaced by someone doing their first one. I know of a couple of first timers the last time around.
The people with the most experience as Gold Badges are the ones screening the people that apply for the program. The program is in good hands.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

No he didn't get picked up because people didn't like his lack of underway experience. He was just coming off a Gold Badge tour, and was replaced by someone doing their first one. I know of a couple of first timers the last time around.
The people with the most experience as Gold Badges are the ones screening the people that apply for the program. The program is in good hands.

Care to tell me how much underway experience YNCM Patty Stolle has?

What is she, on her 4th CMC job...

Wray... :cool:

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

You read that the wrong way. The two aren't related. The people with the most experience as a Gold Badge, i.e., the MCPO-CG, and either LANTAREA or PACAREA, and one other Gold Badge, along with someone from EPM and the Special Assignments Officer. Everyone of them has ownership in the outcome of the board.

As for your question, I don't know her. I don't know how much sea time she has, and I don't see how it matters. If she is in fact on her 4th tour that means that she has been choosen over the others candidates four times. She has been weighed, she has been measured, and she was choosen.....four times. If someone is picking her for any reason other than they think that she is the best person for the job, they're hurting themselves more than they're hurting anyone else.

I know that the people wearing wings don't rack up alot of sea time. But the Airdales have been doing this Silver Badge thing longer than anyone. Seatime is really useful for those people going to sea. For those Gold Badge position I'd rather have someone who understood CG policy and had some compassion. I don't care if the got that compassion watching T.V.

And the bold YNCM ? We had a YNCM that opted not to be a Silver Badge next year. That's our loss. He is one of the best and brightest we have. He embodies everything that it means to be a Chief. It isn't about the rating, it's about the individual.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

You read that the wrong way.
I read it the way you wrote it....


The two aren't related. The people with the most experience as a Gold Badge, i.e., the MCPO-CG, and either LANTAREA or PACAREA, and one other Gold Badge, along with someone from EPM and the Special Assignments Officer. Everyone of them has ownership in the outcome of the board.
I am well aware of how the CMC are selected...

As for your question, I don't know how much sea time she has, and I don't see how it matters.
Didn't you say someone didn't get picked because of his lack of underway time? You still don't see how it matters?

If she is in fact on her 4th tour that means that she has been choosen over the others candidates four times. If someone is picking her for any reason other than they think that she is the best person for the job, they're hurting themselves more than they're hurting anyone else.
No, they are hurting all those that are applying for a CMC position...

Please realize, I know Patti pretty well... I am not picking on her, just pointing out how the system may be failing... Us retired guys have seen how things work, and may have been involved with things more than you give us credit for... We may just be trying to point out some problems with the system... It is up to you "active duty" guys to fix things, that need fixing...
Anymore it's your ballgame, not ours...

Wray... :cool:

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Wray, you quoted me and bold typed and underlined certain parts. Then you made the referrence to sea time experience. I still don't see how sea time matters for these jobs. I don't think the people that passed my friend over made the right call. But it was their call to make. As far as keeping CMCs from serving, I haven't heard of anyone else that didn't get picked up. And they didn't have enough people to apply for those Silver Badge positions the first or second time around.
Again as far as keeping people from those jobs....couldn't the same thing be said about OinC positions? Should they make certain people go to an office and lose that experience underway just to allow someone less deserving the opportunity to Command?

I don't have your answers. I'm not seeing the problem. Maybe if I knew how many people applied for those Gold Badge jobs, and how many were turned away. Until then, I don't see the issue.

[MKCM Brett Ayer]

I guess I look at this issue a little differently (What else is new). I don’t care how many tours someone does as a CMC. I don’t care how many people apply and don’t get selected. I don’t care if they have beaucoup sea time or never made it off the dock. And to be honest I don’t care if it’s good for the member that does back to back CMC tours.

What I do care about is that they are the right person, at the right time for the job. Do they mesh well with the command? (nobody wants to butt heads for 3 years). Do they have the skills to manage the issues the command is (and will be) dealing with?

Our job (as senior enlisted) is to make sure our COs and Flags have a list of well qualified candidates to pick from. The last thing I want to see is a CMC that got the job because they were the only one that asked for the job.

If a Flag finds a CMC that meshes well, and gets the job done, then I'm good to go.

Just to put this in another light. What if I changed the question and replaced CMC with OinC? Should we limit the number of OinC tours to make it easier for new Chiefs to get commands? Does allowing someone to do back to back OinC tours hurt the Coast Guard because it limits the number of members that have OinC experience? Or do we want the best person for the job even if they are on their 5th or 6th OinC tours?

As always, be safe.

Brett

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Brett, I refer to you as the voice of reason.............

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

Well said Brett. I person in a "badge" position must get along well with and be able to support the command, as well as be a good communicator with his constituants. If they are around long enough to do 4-5 tours in a "badge" position, then they must be good at something to get them their early enough in their career to do that many. Good for them.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Obviously the CMC and RADM he is working for must mesh well... Mesh meaning able to discuss things and resolve them in the best possible manner.

For a CMC to understand much of the hardships, problems & questions many enlisted will ask him he/she needs to have a variety of experience. Someone with no or very limited cutter time may not fully understand the hardships & problems that arise while being underway.

There are far too many issues & specifics to get into here, such as medical, housing, education, uniforms, etc....

Getting back to the thread topic... I was asking the pros & cons concerning consecutive CMC tours....

As for the consecutive OIC tours, they too may need to be broken up to allow others the opportunity... Much depends on the number of qualified candidates HQ has available. Not sure how things are now, but a year or two ago I had heard they did not have a sufficient number of AtoN afloat candidates... Perhaps someone should start a thread about that.. I hear they are free ;)

Wray... :cool:

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Wray, putting the best qualified people in the job is the answer for today. With the creation of the Sectors we now have 35 newly minted full time Silver Badge position where people wanting to get into those position can cut their teeth. The bottom line is that those CMC jobs, like the OinC jobs, are something you train your whole career for. Put a person who wants to do the job, in the job, and they'll get it done.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Stuart, putting the best qualified people in the job is probably been the answer for many years now... Obviously some are more experienced, but that is something anyone can obtain...

You do have my curiosity up .. speaking about 35 new silver badge jobs... What exactly do they do? is there a pay grade assigned to them? Can there really be a need for them?

Wray... :cool:

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I think the break down went 18 E-8 and 17 E-9. And yes, there is a need for someone there in a full time aspect. Some of these Sectors cover a wide area and need some there full time to carry those concerns to the Sector Commander' attention.
Every group used to have their own CSC/CMC/CEA....... but it was usually a collateral duty. The need was deemed important enough to assign someone full time. And it gets someone's foot in the door for a Gold Badge position in the future.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I just pulled these names off the MCPO-CG website. If you run down these names you see alot of people who are first time Gold Badges. Some of them beat out incumbents. Last year seven of the ten jobs went to BMs with lots of OinC experience. People who want these jobs will still get them. Here's some proof......
LANTAREA - MCPO William R. James
LANTAREA - MCPO Dennis Kirk (RCMC)
MLCLANT - MCPO Richard Brown
CCGD1 - MCPO John Downey
CCGD1 - MCPO William J. Dikun (RCMC)
CCGD5 - MCPO Thomas A. Botzenhart
CCGD5 - MCPO Bonnie L. Bernard (RCMC)
CCGD7 (Miami) - MCPO Ted Fuller
CCGD7 (JIATF East) - MCPO Lloyd Pierce
CCGD7 - MCPO Kirk D. Murphy (RCMC)
CCGD8 (Western Rivers Region) - MCPO Scott Krehmeier
CCGD8 (Western Rivers) - MCPO Gary W. Petty (RCMC)
CCGD8(Gulf Coast) - MCPO Jeff Amatrudo
CCGD8(Gulf Coast) - MCPO Potenciano Ladut Jr. (RCMC)
CCGD9 - MCPO Frank Jennings
CCGD9 - MCPO Walter A. Wozniak (RCMC)
Headquarters Units - MCPO Bryan R. Clemons
Recruiting Command - MCPO Gordy Yowell
Academy - MCPO Jeff Creighton
Personnel Service Center - MCPO David Grenot
TRACEN Cape May - MCPO James O'Neill
TRACEN Yorktown - MCPO Michael Wilton
CMC Course- MCPO Bob Brayman
PACIFIC AREA CMC'S

PACAREA - MCPO Kevin Isherwood
PACAREA - MCPO Neil Holmdahl
MLCPAC - MCPO Leilani Cale-Jones
CCGD11 - MCPO Patricia Stolle
CCGD11 - MCPO Thomas J. Cowan (RCMC)
CCGD13 - MCPO Kim Brown
CCGD13 - MCPO Wayne North (RCMC)
CCGD14- MCPO Dale M. Potvin
CCGD17 (East) - MCPO Terry Vanderwerf
CCGD17 (West)- MCPO John Litzenberger
CPO Academy- John Niece
CPO Academy- Mark Thomas T
TRACEN Petaluma - MCPO Tim Bensley

Run down these names and you'll find an unbelieveable amount of operational experience. These people were choosen above the others that applied because their future boss saw something in them that clicked. Some of them brought a wealth of previous Badge experience back to the table. Many of them brought fresh perspectives that help us face the challenges ahead. Everyone of them was deemed better than someone else who applied for the same position. The system works. Pros, Cons, and all, we get some of of best people in these jobs. Odds are some of those names will be taking that experience into the front office one day. Look at the names again.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

What are your thoughts on CMC's going from one CMC job to another & then another?

Is it good/bad for the individual?

Is good/bad for the Coast Guard?


I don't have a problem with it. If they go through the screening process and are picked up - good for them.

It's good for the individual because they are getting the jobs that they want. It's good for the CG, because they get the benefit of the training and experience of a seasoned CMC.

It's kind of like OINC/XPO/EPO's having consecutive jobs - I don't have a problem with that either.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Years ago if people had a problem they would see their CHief for assistance.. Now days it seem you must go to a silver badge or gold badge to get help...

Does this mean the Chiefs are not capable of helping others?

I see a lot of wasted talent here...

Keep in mind, as a retired member I can only express my views as I see them based on when I was active duty.. As a former silver badge myself, I don't understand it....

Wray... :cool:

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Wray...going to your Chief first has not changed. If your Chief can't help (or is the problem), members are to inform their chain of command that they would like to meet with the SB. If the SB can't help, then the member should request to meet with the GB.

[MSTC SJ Natale]

How come they are always listed as MCPO vice "BMCM" "MKCM", etc, etc...

Does it just not matter due to the billet being a MCPO billet vice a billet for a particular rating?

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Wray...going to your Chief first has not changed. If your Chief can't help (or is the problem), members are to inform their chain of command that they would like to meet with the SB. If the SB can't help, then the member should request to meet with the GB.

Do people now days have so many problems these positions are needed? Or, is it that the Chiefs can't resolve the problems?

I still find it strange....

Wray... :cool:

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Do people now days have so many problems these positions are needed? Or, is it that the Chiefs can't resolve the problems?

I still find it strange....

Wray...First, Chiefs are still resolving the problems. Let's not forget that the SB/GB's are Chiefs. Second, didn't they have CEA's when you were still on active duty? A CSC is just a different name for CEA.

One of the reasons for a billeted (not collateral duty) SB position at each Sector is because there are a lot of new (since you've retired) people programs that need a full-time Chief to manage.

What exactly do you find strange?

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Wray...First, Chiefs are still resolving the problems. Let's not forget that the SB/GB's are Chiefs. Second, didn't they have CEA's when you were still on active duty? A CSC is just a different name for CEA.

One of the reasons for a billeted (not collateral duty) SB position at each Sector is because there are a lot of new (since you've retired) people programs that need a full-time Chief to manage.

What exactly do you find strange?

Deane, yes they were CEA's.... and I am well aware it is just a name change... what I do find strange is the fact that there are so many full time people required to assist others... Do people really have that many problems that can not be handled by the chiefs at their units, or, their own Officer in Charge.... in the past we tried to resolve issues at the lowest possible level... I can see the occasional need some assistance from them.... but, to require all these silver badges in addition to the gold badges, just seems like over kill to me..

I wore a silver badge, and it was a collateral duty.. I can not immagine what I would have done if it was a full time job... the only word that comes to mind is BORED...

Wray....:cool:

[MSTCS Jerald P. Motyka]

How many people were at the command when you were last the CEA? Sector Jacksonville has just under 400 people that fall under the Sector Commander. I would doubt that you were at a bigger unit (or as big). Right now, with the general crap that our CSC has to deal with - as a collateral - he can't deal with the duties AND do the duties required of the MKCS billet he fills. We solved it by having an Assistant Command Chief (me), and I stay pretty busy with stuff, even though it is nothing compared to the MKCS. We NEED a full time CMC, and we are getting one - MKCM Bob Brayman from the CMC course.

It's just a matter of scope of responsibility. Smaller units still have collateral duty CC's/CSC's, but larger ones have full time folks to pull the duty.
_________________________________

And the reason they are listed as MCPO and SCPO is due to the fact that HQ views them as Gold Badges in Training - and once you are a Gold Badge, you "lose" your rating insignia and become a PO rather than an MK/BM/FS.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

At the time I was at Group Ohio Valley, which I guess is not Sector Ohio Valley... I don't remember how many people fell under our umbrella... At the time I was the Assistant Operations officer... BAck then most of the cutter OIC's resolved their own problems.. Only on a few occasions did I need to get involved...

What type of "general crap" does your MKCS have to deal with, that the unit CO's/OIC's can't handle???

Wray... :cool:

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

It is not just problems that the SB's deal with. It is simply a much larger command under a sector and communication amoung the troops both up and down the chain is a large part of the job of a badge wearer. The new construct of sectors, this creates a whole new animal.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Jim, there used to be one (1) CEA per district... that seemed to work... Neither the Coast Guard or the United States has gotten any larger.. Names have changed, and even perhaps geographical boundarys, but still the same number of people.

Wray... :cool:

[MKC Craig Thorngren (Ret)]

Jim, there used to be one (1) CEA per district... that seemed to work...

Wray... :cool:

Wray,
That's one (1) voice per district to bring problems concerns or other enlisted issues to the fore front of Senior Officers. It may have seemed to "work", but I for one think the current system works better! I'm pretty sure that our current Gold Badge Master Chiefs email, phone and talk to each other on a regular basis. They each can then go to the Captain/Admiral that they answer to and try to change current policy or implement new ones. When enough Captains and Admirals here the same thing from their Master Chiefs, they will listen. As for being "bored", ask one of them to let you follow behind them for a day and see how boring it really is...

Craig

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Craig, like I said, it just seems like over kill, .. that is my opinion & I'm sticking to it.. not trying to change anyones mind, just voice my opinion... being retired, it really doesn't matter to me... the CG could put 10 gold badges per district.. it's their business.. not mine..

When I started this I was just asking opinions, not really wanting to argue about it... If you and everyone else thinks they are necessary, so be it... I just happen to feel if the chiefs did their job, there wouldn't be this great need for silver & gold badges...

It is also obvious to me that everyone wants a badge, insignia, or "pin" for everything (not to mention ribbons) ..... those in my "opinion" are also declining in importance and value...

Wray... :cool:

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

It's not about Chiefs being able to do their job. Very little of those Gold Badges days are centered around resolving a person's issues. They spend most of their time doin the CG's business. And Wray, the CG has gotten larger. We have new requirements every week. There are new programs that come on line all the time. THose District Commanders, and Sector Commanders for the Silver Badges, can't be everywehere at once. The Gold Badges go out to get the word out.
Those Badges are also there for all discipline issues and well as being part of the awards and recognition issues. They are a condiuit to take Chiefs issues to the Command. The Sector jobs have gotten too big for the unit Commander to listen to every person at it anytime they might want to see to them. The Chiefs still act as that filter. They pass that information up through the Badges and we still resolve things at their lowest level. That hasn't changed. It isn't overkill, it's more effective.
Those Badges also work within the Officer community where they can carry the weight of their boss. You can't see how that isn't an added bonus.

As for them being called MCPO as opposed to their former rating? They go out of rate. They become MCPO and should be able to be seen by anyone as rating neutral. Even their rating badge changes for the time they hold those jobs. They represent some one who is supposed to be there of anyone, and all of us at the same time. It is a full time jig.

Jerald, you guys in JAX lucked out. That job went from not being shopped this year to getting filled by, far and away, one of the best. That shows why it shouldn't matter how many consectutive tours someone does in these jobs, or people "stepping down" into a "lower level" position in the Silver Badge ranks. Getting qualified, commited people into these position is the only thing that should really matter.

[CMC Isherwood]

Against my better judgment I will opine. I am currently serving in my 2nd consecutive CMC tour. As many of you have mentioned, “It depends” on the person and what their motivations are for accepting the position.

An actively engaged CMC that is responsive to the units and is capable of balancing mission execution with workforce needs is invaluable to both the field and the Flag.

You can surmise on your own what CMC traits are not valuable to either the field or the Flag. There are NO CMCs that go into work each day with a, “I am going to screw up the CG today” attitude. If you do not know what your CMC does or is doing for you, ASK them! Ask them what projects they are working on; Ask them what boards and panels they are part of; Ask them how they are making your sailors lives better. You just may be pleasantly surprised.

The value a CMC adds to the CG comes in the form of access and influence that would be impossible to achieve at the unit level. When the "good idea" club meets, it is ALWAYS good to have an enlisted "voice of reason" in the room. The CMCs that I am proud to be associated with are not in this to wear a badge; they are in it to make a difference!

Wray, I had to chuckle at your “bored” comment. I have NO idea what “bored” looks like!

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Kevin, what I said was:

"I wore a silver badge, and it was a collateral duty.. I can not immagine what I would have done if it was a full time job... the only word that comes to mind is BORED..."

The reason I said that was the lack of problems I had to resolve, or issues to take care of. Most of the OIC's handled problems at their level.

I will have to stand by my origional feelings on this issue... either there are many more enlisted problems than there were while I was in, or, the number of gold & silver badges is over kill.

Wray.... :cool:

P.S. I would have put my quote in bold, but I didn't want anyone to think I was "yelling" :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Wray, I'm not going to yell either, but you're discounting that the role of the Silver/Gold Badges has moved from resolving enlisted issues to assisting in the creation of unit/sector/district policy. The Badges are involved in all aspects of the Sector routine. It is a full time job. And there are benefits to allowing people to do those consectutive tours.
OinCs are still handling issues at their own units. The Badges are applying what they've learned throughout their career, many of them through their own OinC tours, how to resolve those same situations at larger units, and allowing the COs to focus on other issues.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Wray, I'm not going to yell either, but you're discounting that the role of the Silver/Gold Badges has moved from resolving enlisted issues to assisting in the creation of unit/sector/district policy.

What policy do they have to create that was not or is not already in place, just because some geographical boundries have changed? Why would that be their job anyway?


The Badges are involved in all aspects of the Sector routine. It is a full time job.
Can you give me some examples of just what they have to do?


The Badges are applying what they've learned throughout their career, many of them through their own OinC tours, how to resolve those same situations at larger units, and allowing the COs to focus on other issues.

As an OIC I always felt that my people, and their issues were my responsibility. That was one of the things I put as my main focus. I also found that they would rather deal with me than some CEA that didn't know them from Adam.

When you get to Greenbrier, are you going to want your crew to run to the CMC with an issue you could handle? If you can't handle it will you or they be the one to contact the CMC? You may have a different view after your tour on Greenbrier.

Wray....:cool:

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Won't have a different view....... life is very different for OinCs. I want my people to come to me with their issues. I create a working environment that fosters that. Ask around, my people have never taken an issue to anyone else. But I'm blessed that way. I know other OinCs that tried to foster that same environment and had people go to the CSC/CMC any time they ran into problems at the unit. That avenue is there, and there will always be people who abuse the system if they are allowed to.
I don't go to the Badges with personal issues about my people. I go to them with personnel issues on the base. I go to them when I see a base policy that isn't working. I go to them to work out issues with other units.
I can't see a problem that could arise that I couldn't handle. I know people. I know how to use a phone. I can type. I get answers. I can't let things go. I would keep calling until I get the answer that I need. I would only call my Silver/Gold Badge if that was the easiest call. I can't see where it would be. I know too many people who have probably already handled a similar situation. But everyone else isn't fortunate enough to know my circle of friends. The Badge network becomes their one stop shopping. Look at that list of Gold Badges again. Everyone of the people who got District jobs on the Eastern sea board is a newly minted Gold Badge. Every one of them came from at least OinC job. The D8 Guy is an aviator, who beat out every other person competing for that position. What situation could arise that one of these people couldn't help you with ? The Coast Guard created those billets so no issue has to go unresolved. That's a good thing. They're there because not everyone has the resources or authority provided to OinCs. Not everyone gets to experience the things that we do.
Look back on your own career..... if you had a person working for you that had an issue, you probably had an answer. If you didn't, a friend of yours did. You were able to implement the decision that you made. You went with the best choice based on past experience. Not everyone can do that. Some people could come up with the same answers, and not have the authority to implement them. Someone above could be blocking that from happening. The Badge network is there to respond to those situations. They're there to ensure that the right thing gets done.

And Wray, the Badges are involved in creating those policies at their unit. That's the way the system works. We have enlisted input on all those decisions. And policies change with the times. We live in a time where people want to see everything in writing. Someone has to write it. That's a full time job.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Stu, you sound a lot like me.. You want to take care of your people.... your post reflects exactly what I said. thank you for making my point.

I do agree the "badges" are involved with making changes. That does not mean they are responsible for drafting the instruction.. perhaps some may, but, that is probably because someone else has delegated them to do it, simply because they didn't want to do it themselves. (Everyone passes off the buck)....If I'm not mistaken it is the responsibility of the gold badges to pass back to the command, the concerns, problems & questions the enlisted members may have... perhaps that too has changed. I'm not sure.

Wray...

P.S. Every OIC has a "circle of friends"... I thought I may have said that, even if indirectly..

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Wray, anyone can draft a change. That is one of the assignments at the CPOA. The badges take those issues for action. They have all of the things that you remember them doing as well as everything that has been added on. Some may wait for things to get delegated to them, other are forging the path themself. They take the word to the Command and the word from the Command to the field. They also filter what needs to be passed. They handle people's personal issues as well as people personnel issues. In some circles they carry more weight than the word of a randomly selected OinC.

You have to realize that not everyone has that circle of friends. Adding your Silver/Gold badge into your circle, gives you clout. They are in psoitions that are designed to give ther input weight. They're there to represent the people that need them. And they're there full time. They don't have to wait to get back from a deploymnet or put in an engine before they can get back to you.
They're there if you need them. If you don't someone else does.

[CMC Bruce Bradley]

Speaking of drafting changes, the new CMC Instruction is getting ready to hit the streets. It's still in draft format but it was used as the base instruction for this years application/selection process. I can only assume that it was written by "the badges" since I don't recall any info input requests.

Now it does a better job of spelling out what the job and it's requirements are for both the gold and silver side of the house. But it did get me thinking if what is written meets what I think I need from my "badge". So with that thought (and hoping this isn't getting off the thread topic), what would like your "badge" to do for you and your crew beyond what they might currently be doing. Or if yours is going beyond what the normal expection is, what is it that they are doing. Sharing might help spread the ideas.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

And they're out......

[CMC Bruce Bradley]

Nice to see information flowing again. The draft copy of the CMC instruction I talked about is on the Special Assignment AO's web site, under her hot world section. Interesting reading.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Here's the link to the draft CMC Program Instruction...

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cgPC/epm/epm-2/AO_Pages/CMC-1306.B-Draft.doc

[AMTCM John Long]

Consecutive CMC tours

I can only speak from my experience. The structure of many air stations is to have a full time LCPO and a full time CMC. There are a couple of Airsta CSC's and some unit's that are co-located and use the Group/Sector CMC.

I was fortunate to be the CSC at Airsta Detroit for a couple of years. I was the LCPO at AirSta North Bend before coming to HQ

My take is from the unit level. Many of our aviation E9's do consecutive CMC tours. That is the billet structure for most airdale E9's. We have approx 10 or 11 airdale E9's billets not at operational units Five are in HQ, 3 are SWE writers, 1 is at TQC, and 1 or 2 at ARSC. At the bigger airsta's the LCPO is an E9. LCPO's manage and oversee's the aviation enlisted workforce. They work for the EO. The CMC is the conduit between all the enlisted and the Command. They look out for the welfare of both.

Unit level aviation CMC's doing consecutive tours is the norm. IMO, being an air station CMC is the end goal for us. Our career paths will groom individuals for these jobs. Once I get through with my HQ tour I hope to get back to a unit CMC job. I enjoy being in the field. I enjoy working with the younger folks (O's and E's) and helping them develop personally and professionally. I enjoy helping them work out their problems, talking to their spouses/family members/parents, hopefully being someone they can look up to. I enjoy working at the Command level, developing unit policy, helping the CO/XO understand enlisted issues. That is what I view as the role of a unit CMC. Being able to communicate at the hanger deck level and the command level is a big plus for the position.

I can't speak for any gold badge position. I would think at that level of responsibilty doing back to back tours probably has good points and bad points.

Good- It's a full-time job, wants the job, previous experience, brings alot to the table, understands the dynamics of District/HQ level politics, maybe a candidate for MCPOCG.

Bad- Out of touch with current unit level ops, locks up a high profile gold badge job from a up-n-comer, might not be good for any operational jobs after 2 consecutive gold badge tours (7 to 8 years away from the field). Might not be able to relate to our most junior folks.

What might be a logical approach is to say 2 or more gold badge jobs are ok, just not back to back. Alot probably has to do with the person's background.....operational, staff, M, etc and what the CG expects from today's E9's. Not all E9's are cut out to be gold badges. IMO, it takes a special person to want to be a gold badge.

That's my initial take on it.....John

[BMCS R. Scott Pugh]

Okay, perhaps I am a little paranoid... But, in the draft instruction and in the MCPOCG Notes there is no mention of D9. In the notes on page five and towards the end of the instruction the Great Lakes is not mentioned. The instruction does have the sectors lumped in with D8 units, but no D9.

What is going on? :confused: :D

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I'm sorry Scott, did you say something..........
I'll ask someone about that tomorrow.

[BMCM Bill James]

I too am one of the "newbie" CMCs, having spent the previous six years as OinC of 87' WPBs. Ive had this job for 9 months now, and have grown to like it (it's hard giving up being "king"!).

Will I ask for another CMC tour? Perhaps. I'd like to get back to a PB again before I get TOO old & crotchety. I'm a "youngster" with 23 years of service, and am in this for the long haul. CMC and OinC are about the only two jobs I'm intrested in doing for the rest if my career.

Wray, the world of work of CMCs has changed since you retired, I gurantee. We CMCs are involved in all of the decisons about personnel, policies, operations, etc. that our commanders handle...from 110' WPBs with a crew of 16, through an Area with a "crew" of 28,000, to the whole dang CG! And yes, we do originate ideas & author policy - see the IDP program for a good example.

I do regret that I haven't been able to produce regular written "notes" such as MCPOCG Bowen recently did. I have NO admin/support staff, and would rather spend my time DOING, rather that writing about what I have done. I'll gladly answer any questions about what I'm involved in - TIME permitting.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Scott, rest assure that it was an oversite. MCPO-CG isn't the one that designed the graph that was used. It went unnoticed, the person who made the graph will be notified, and it will be corrected. You guys still fall under LANTAREA and there's a lot of love for you.

[AMTCM John Long]

Okay, perhaps I am a little paranoid... But, in the draft instruction and in the MCPOCG Notes there is no mention of D9. In the notes on page five and towards the end of the instruction the Great Lakes is not mentioned. The instruction does have the sectors lumped in with D8 units, but no D9. What is going on?



Don't forget this is a draft. I just got info'd it's still being worked on.....

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Warning: The draft that's on the Special Assignments web site is just that; a draft. It was done very early last summer and most of it has been revised. It is a good source as far as looking into how to apply for the program and what needs to be in the package. Don't take everything else as written in stone, again that was a very early draft of the finalized policy that's still to come.

[MSTCS Jerald P. Motyka]

Sure, Master Chief, but it is a draft that was recently used as signed policy when they solicited for and selected the new Silver Badges...

Sorry, but that had left a HUGE nasty taste in my mouth. (and I have a big mouth!)

[CMC Bruce Bradley]

It was used in both the Gold and Silver selection process this year. And Stu I don't think it's a early a draft as you think. Overall I think is a good document. What has changed in it from what's written and what's practiced?

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Sure, Master Chief, but it is a draft that was recently used as signed policy when they solicited for and selected the new Silver Badges...

Sorry, but that had left a HUGE nasty taste in my mouth. (and I have a big mouth!)

Why such a bad taste? Why is it a bad thing that this was used for the selection process?

[BMCS R. Scott Pugh]

Master Chief Long - Roger, it is a draft - BUT someone forgot a whole district! That was a little surprising to me.

I understand that the oversight will be corrected before it is promulgated as a 'real' instruction, so we are all set.

Scott

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

What's accurate is the process to apply for the Badge positions and what needs to be in the package. As you have stated, it what we used this year. But that draft was written last summer. It defines some roles that are still being worked out.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Scott, you may be confusing the MCPO-CG force note with the draft that's on the Special Assignments website. They're two differt documents.I wouldn't read too much into D9 missing from the chart, its little more than a typo. We still recognize you, even at a distance.

And for all, I practice a very strict non-attribution policy with the information I receive. But trust me, that draft will be redefined.

[CMC Isherwood]

It is an EARLY draft, the VERY first one to be exact. During the Sector command chief panel, was when I first heard that it was on the web. EPM self started and put it there. Since it was already on the web and clearly marked DRAFT, NO effort was expended to remove it.

Last week we put the final touches on the version that will go into the concurrent clearance process.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Scott, that graph has been corrected and you're officially back in the fold. Welcome home.

[BMCS R. Scott Pugh]

Thanks Stu... I thought my ears were a little warm this afternoon. Oh wait, the high in Buffalo was about 38 degrees, that would explain the warmth.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

MC Isherwood, with all the talk about special assignments and how it's going to affect the number of people in specific ratings.......... any chance in posting that version that we'll be following for next year?

[CMC Isherwood]

Stu,
If you can believe it, the CMC Instruction that entered the concurrent clearance process in early Feb has yet to emerge. This unwieldy CC process is exactly why the field self starts on instructions specific to their AORs. Who can wait six months or more for something to be formalized that impact out workforce today?

I saw a very humorous email the other day regarding the HQs units IDP that is going through concurrent clearance as we speak. This is from a CAPT in the CC process:
“I wanted to share my first thought on this...why are we doing this as a HQ instruction? In 2004/5 (can't remember which year), VADM Johnson put out his "People Plan" for PACAREA. About six months to a year later, VADM Crea put out her LANTAREA plan... which I seem to recall stole shamelessly from PAC's. Now, HQ is putting out a plan for HQ units... and the material/requirements look pretty darn similar.

So, we will soon have similar (but not the same) documents issued by the three 3-stars that "own" the entire CG. Thus, why isn't this a COMDT instruction... so one document applies to all?”

Getting back on topic here… The board meets 12June to screen Sector SB candidates. As far as I know, they will be operating off the tenets of the solicitation message. Good luck to all that apply.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Yes, good luck to all that apply. I hope we have more than enough people who apply for these jobs, our people deserve qualified candidates seeking these positions. I hope the board looks favorably on all those BMs who apply, with a special focus on BMCM's and any BMCS who took the May SWE.........

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

Who can wait six months or more for something to be formalized that impact out workforce today?

The answer is NO ONE.

Concurrent Clearance is used when they expect only minor editing, at least that's what CIM 5215.6E states.

Is Concurrent Clearance broken or are those at the palace not following the rules of the game? My vote goes to the latter ...

[CMC Isherwood]

Stu,
As a member of last year's board, I can tell you that we reviewed every package that had AO release and the Special Assignment Officer's blessing regardless of rating specialty or seniority.

Joe,
I am pretty sure that the CC process has not changed since you were AD. Another challenge to CC process is the fact that what comes out of the CC process does not always reflect what originally went in to it. Sometimes, the teeth are removed from the document via subtle language shifts or the intent is watered down beyond field usefulness by program managers that do not have daily interaction with the field.

Speaking from my personal experiences with the "ground up" creation of a COMDTINST, NOTHING is as easy as it seems it should be. There is so much give and take that transpires just trying to move the document from desk to desk within a specific program that it boggles your mind. NOTHING should be that hard!!

Here are two "broad brushed" observations that I have made regarding COMDTINSTs
1) With out a field champion a COMDTINST will not be widely followed.
2) What is not measured and made painful for not following, will not get done.
You can poke holes in these observations or find anomalies, but I have solid examples strongly supporting each case.

And finally, my favorite line I heard CMC Jeff Seifried tell VADM Johnson was
"Admiral, just because you said, "make it so", does not make it so field". The responding look from the VADM was priceless!!!

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

Kevin,

No doubt the look was priceless.

I'm sure there were abuses to the CC system throughout it's use. Such abuses without consequences only furthers the abuses. All the accountability talk in the world is going for naught when we are replete with examples of non-accountability.

I certainly believe you concerning the subtle shifts from good, active voice to the non-committal passive voice, nullifying the impact of the Instruction's intent. That is a truely a shame.

[AMTCM John Long]

Joe,

Concurrent clearance is not be a big issue if the cover/routing letter is worded and routed correctly. If you are the originator.....

1. Insert a response due date

2. Insert a phrase similar to, "Non-response will indicate concurrance" on the cover/routing letter. On the ones I have seen in HQ land, this seems to be a norm and allows for fast-tracking.

3. Confirm appropriate players are given chance to review/approve (keep it to lowest level possible. The higher the level, the more players involved)

3. Wait for the response due date to pass, reconcile inputs, then move on.

John

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

John,

From originator to CC and back is suppose to be 10 working days. If more time is needed, the CC gets back, in writing, to the originator when they will be able to complete their assessment.

I understand that "subsequent" rounds can add up, but six months is alot of "ten working days".

There is suppose to be "camera ready" documents leaving the originator.

I wonder, if someone audited that process on one document, if everything could be reconciled. If they are working [i]part time on that document ... it must not have been that important. The delivery time is inversely proportional to how the leadership really feels about the subject.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

This is the exact reason I would often send a "BCC" or "Advance copy" on much of my correspondance. Sometimes it did anoy those that were responsible for endorsing it, but as with most things.. they got over it.

Far too often things get bogged down along the way. There is a procedure/policy in place, it is just not followed.

Wray... :cool:

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

This is the exact reason I would often send a "BCC" or "Advance copy" on much of my correspondance. Sometimes it did anoy those that were responsible for endorsing it, but as with most things.. they got over it.

I agree Wray. I did the BCC route to get those later on the list to start thinking about and expect the letter.

Having seperate OPCON and ADCON certainly helps them to get over the BCC stuff. It's expecially good when one doesn't know they were suppose to get an endorsement prior to forwarding it to the palace ... which was the result of a change in the CIM that they were unaware. :D

[AMTCM John Long]

John,

From originator to CC and back is suppose to be 10 working days. If more time is needed, the CC gets back, in writing, to the originator when they will be able to complete their assessment.

I understand that "subsequent" rounds can add up, but six months is alot of "ten working days".

There is suppose to be "camera ready" documents leaving the originator.

I wonder, if someone audited that process on one document, if everything could be reconciled. If they are working [i]part time on that document ... it must not have been that important. The delivery time is inversely proportional to how the leadership really feels about the subject.

Joe,

10 days is what your supposed to allow for the minimum, not the maximum. As per the manual, you can go fewer if it's unavoidable.

The key is the "Deadline Date For Return...." box and what you put in there.

From what I have seen with traffic up here, if someone wants to fast-track a package, they'll need to walk it through upto the point of the executive assistant for the respective Flag. However, that is the exception, not the norm. Most folks probably don't want to make that a habit and use up their fast-track chips.

John

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

John,

Now you got my curiousity.

On this particular topic ... mandantory attendence at the CPO ACAD by all CPOs and up ... people are complaining it's been six months yet no one has identified how long the originator gave on their "Deadline date for Return" if any.

Maybe the Area's acted in haste, prior to the "Deadline date for return". Somehow I doubt it though.

This certainly gives new meaning to Admiral Yost's message about getting rid of the beards. I don't think there was a month between ... Break my flag and send the message getting rid of the beards. :D