Alcohol Use At CG Functions

[AMTCM John Long]

This thread has been moved (from CPO Mess) and modified slightly by admin.


I don't drink, but if a CG social event has booze/beer I don't have a problem with it. I have seen CG events where the beer out numbered the soda by a 3 coolers to 1 cooler ratio.

Where it would bother me in the past is when a member drinks too much and starts to get liquid courage or acts like a jerk-off. I can't speak for non-airstation parties, but at the airstation ones the alchohol mins in the 3710 usually kept things in check.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Why doesn't someone start this in an open forum ?

[AMTCM John Long]

Stu,

It's ok by me if you want to shift it. I suggest deleting the bold text however before you do.

John

[BMCS Burt Ford]

John
I have the Crud in my head and on good medicine, but what in Mins and 3710?

Burt

[BMCS Dave Considine]

I know from experience that when you have alcohol on base or at a station, you must request it in writing. The approval contains STRICT guidelines. I.E. you have to have a designated bartender who is not drinking, limit the number of alcoholic beverages served, only beer and wine, must serve food in conjunction with the alcohol etc etc.

If you follow the rules - no worries, if it turns into a frat party with keg stands, then you're looking for trouble.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

But is it ABSOLUTELY necessary to have alcohol in order to have a succesful morale event?

What, people will refuse to have good morale because the beer wagopn isn't in place?

[BMCS Dave Considine]

No, its definitely not necessary. I'd drink O'Douls all day at an event, I just like the "taste" of something with barley and hops. I could care less if it's got alcohol. I'm just waiting for a non-alcoholic Guinness to come out. If they do, I will quit drinking all together!

I know Guinness makes a non-alcoholic beer, but it is not the Stout!

[BMC John Phillips III]

Well, I posted this behind the closed door so I will post it again for all to see. I have been to CG Morale functions where the sole purpose of the event was to have beer or alcohol. That has never done anything positive for my morale, like AMTCM said, someone will inevitibly drink too much and make an ass of themselves. Or even worse they will work up their liquid courage and say or do something stupid. I think the CG is moving away from these type actiivities and I know I am certainly doing my part. For the most part my unit's morale functions have not had alcohol except where it may be deemed appropriate (such as a Christmas party- celebration).

I have also seen other units moving towards doing more functions without placing an emphasis on alcohol. As most know I am stationed in a place where drinking is one of, if not the most popular past-times. They call it the Duval-crawl. Anyway, what I have been seeing a lot of lately from the visiting ships is softball, football, sports activities, etc. I have seen more and more young guys fishing out on D3 rather than doing the Duval Crawl and I think that's a positive step in the right direction. Now I have to throw out a disclaimer and say I haven't spent much time at all out on Duval, so I haven't seen much of the other side. But at least I know that most of the visiting commands are putting more emphasis on sports and team activities for morale and leaving the drinking for smaller individual groups.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

But is it ABSOLUTELY necessary to have alcohol in order to have a succesful morale event?

What, people will refuse to have good morale because the beer wagopn isn't in place?

Drinking alcohol is a choice, not a requirement. Good leadership and oversight is a requirement, not a choice.

I've been in for almost 20 years. I've been in D1, D5, D7, D8 (twice), D9 and D13. I've never seen a morale event end badly because of alcohol being present. I'm talking about a command sponsored event, not SA Smith having a party at his house...I've seen that end badly.

The decision of whether to have alcohol at morale functions rests with the CO/OINC. It's their comfort level. I don't have a problem with it and (knock on wood) have never had an issue because of it.

[BMC John Phillips III]

I've been in for almost 20 years. I've never seen a morale event end badly because of alcohol being present. (knock on wood)

You have been very fortunate.

I also have a question, would you consider port call liberty where more than 80% of the crew is out in the same general location a morale function? Or is that just liberty where the crew is hanging out together. Cause this is the most common scenerio where I have seen things go bad. I hear you about sn so an so's house too, those almost never go off without a hitch.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

I also have a question, would you consider port call liberty where more than 80% of the crew is out in the same general location a morale function? Or is that just liberty where the crew is hanging out together. Cause this is the most common scenerio where I have seen things go bad.

No, I don't view liberty in the same way as a CG Morale function. Having said that, the senior person present on liberty should still provide leadership/oversight. It only takes one person to speak up.

[AMTCM John Long]

John
I have the Crud in my head and on good medicine, but what in Mins and 3710?

Burt

There is an hourly limitation in there for the "bottle to throttle" rule. I don't have the 3710 in front of me but it's either 12 hrs or 24hrs. If I was a drinker I would know that. What that does is limit who can drink under a 1 in 4 duty rotation. You're either oncoming or on duty. Depending on when the party is, that will take care of quite a few duty standers. Years ago it used to be 8hrs if I remember correctly.

Deane,

I haven't seen CG parties themselves go bad, just one or two folks who got in small jams. I had two tours in Borinquen. On my first tour, the local rum was cheaper that a gallon of milk. Pretty gals, cheap booze and young Coasties! :D

A short story from days gone by.....during my Steadfast days we did a UNITAS deployment down to Rio DeJanerio with the Navy. This was circa 1981. All the guys would go out on libo. We had folks get lost, had folks get carried back by the SP's, folks puking on Navy ships while trying to reach our ship. If I remember the story right, our BM3 got shot in the leg running from a ho house with pimps and the local police in tow. That was a different era.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I'm a non-drinker...... (that can be read as alcoholic if you look hard enough.) I'll steal someone else's line that applies to my drinking style. 1 was too many, and 50 was never enough. I don't past my choices with alcohol on to others. They are choices for every individual to make on their own. But I do not allow people to blame alcohol for the poor decisions they make. Alcohol "allows" you to do the things that you really want to do. If you really want to stick with alcohol making you do those things, make the sober choice not to drink in the first place.
I don't prevent adults from engaging in legal/authorized activities. I don't allow adults to engage in those that aren't. Alcohol is never the problem. Responsible people drink alcohol all the time. Irresponsibile people let alcohol make poor decisions for them, all the time. Alcohol helps us in determining who the idiots are around us.

[AMTCM John Long]

Irresponsibile people let alcohol make poor decisions for them, all the time

Ahhhh.......so what comes first, the poor decision or the alcohol?

[BMC John Phillips III]

I think for the people in question - alcohol is the poor decision so it's more of a simultaneous thing I would guess. Then it just gets progressively worse, kinda like they talk about in TCT, the domino effect.

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

Ahhhh.......so what comes first, the poor decision or the alcohol?

Neither comes first. The answer lies in the people consuming. I don't think your implying that non-drinkers can't make a poor decision.

Why blame the inanimate object, alcohol, as the source of the problem?

I see alcohol in every store and in every bar that has good food. Not once has the alcohol jumped up and demanded to touch my lips. That would be my choice to consume or not consume alcohol.

BAC over Time Chart (http://www.drunkdrivingdefense.com/general/bac.htm).

Since alcohol burns at 0.015% per hour, you can Estimate your BAC (http://www.drunkdrivingdefense.com/general/bac.htm).

I'd say let adults be adults and make adult choices.

Some will say 8 hours bottle to throttle ... which means the maximum BAC has to be 0.16 at 8 hours before the throttle. What if the person had a BAC high enough that when 8 hours has elapsed, the BAC reduced to 0.06? They are legally impaired at throttle time, but, well within CG guidelines.

Most states consider less than 0.05 as not impaired, which is slightly more than two beers in one hour for a 180 lb person.

[ETC Brian Strattard]

I personnaly would rather not see alcohol purchased by morale for functions:

A.) If you only way people will show up is for free booze...then you may have other problems to address...

B.) There are most likely underaged Coasties (duty/recall personnel as well) at your unit and you are spending morale $$$ on something they cannot enjoy...it is their money as well...

C.) I have yet to see a morale party where the command had taken steps to monitor if people were too drunk to drive...just concerned sober shipmates looking out for each other...if the unit is paying for it's people to get sloshed...it should have a safety net established i.e. duty driver, cab $$, etc.

Strat sends...

[AMTCM John Long]

Neither comes first. The answer lies in the people consuming. I don't think your implying that non-drinkers can't make a poor decision.

Why blame the inanimate object, alcohol, as the source of the problem?

I see alcohol in every store and in every bar that has good food. Not once has the alcohol jumped up and demanded to touch my lips. That would be my choice to consume or not consume alcohol.

I'd say let adults be adults and make adult choices.

Some will say 8 hours bottle to throttle ... which means the maximum BAC has to be 0.16 at 8 hours before the throttle. What if the person had a BAC high enough that when 8 hours has elapsed, the BAC reduced to 0.06? They are legally impaired at throttle time, but, well within CG guidelines.

Most states consider less than 0.05 as not impaired, which is slightly more than two beers in one hour for a 180 lb person.


Joe,

IMO opinion, referring to Stu's post, it would have to be one or the other.
In situations where something happens, someone made a decision in the chain of events before the consumption started. Here's a few wide ranging examples:

- You knowingly drink without a designated driver and try to drive home
- You spend your rent money on beer for the Superbowl party
- You know you're a mean drunk
- A parent supplies alcohol for the kid's HS graduation party

Stu was partially correct, "Irresponsibile people let alcohol make poor decisions for them, all the time."

I would rephrase it this way....."A good person made a bad decision at the wrong time".

The alcohol is not the problem. It's loss of the big picture and situational awareness.

My 2 cents........John

[AMTCM John Long]

C.) I have yet to see a morale party where the command had taken steps to monitor if people were too drunk to drive...just concerned sober shipmates looking out for each other...if the unit is paying for it's people to get sloshed...it should have a safety net established i.e. duty driver, cab $$, etc.

Strat sends...

In years past I would agree. In the last few years I can't think of one CG party I've been to where a designated driver(s) or taxi service wasn't pre-arranged.
The North Bend CPOA has a deal with the local taxi companies. They had a deal set-up for a ride home that was $5. The CPOA pick's up the cost. It doesn't cost the member anything to get home. It was discreet, no questions asked and.....no excuses for local DUI/DWI's.

John

[MSTCS Jerald P. Motyka]

Granted, it may be ancient history, but when I was in the Army, some 25 years ago, I was at some unit mandatory fun - a picnic - where beer was bought and brought by the senior enlisted cadre and the Officers. Great fun was had by all.

Three days later, we had the chance to go to a memorial service for one of my buddies. He and another guy were tanked, and they jumped in their Camaro and took off after the party. When it flipped, he was partially ejected and became a stain on the road as he was crushed from the waist up. The driver, another guy from our unit, was bruised and that was it... and had no memory of the drive OR crash.

The results of the investigation were released to the unit, and I remember being upset that the two kids were the only ones at fault for drinking and driving and not wearing seat belts. Nobody mentioned that they were SEVENTEEN (within days of being 18), and that the command had provided alcohol.
__________________________________________________ ___

Okay... the long story is done. I'm torn about alcohol at functions... I am dead against command PROVIDED beers - but don't have much of a problem if it is available for individual purchase, or BYOB. I guess my beef with it is the liability of it. I don't want someone asking, "Well, who gave them the beers," and then looking at me...

[BMC John Phillips III]

A.) If you only way people will show up is for free booze...then you may have other problems to address...
Strat sends...

A must be for "AMEN!"

I may be wrong about this, but I don't think you can use morale money to purchase alcoholic beverages although I have seen it done in the past. I wouldn't even if it were allowed for the reason you mentioned.

It doesn't cost the member anything to get home. It was discrete, no questions asked and.....no excuses for local DUI/DWI's.

John

I know this is extremis but I think of that the same way I think of giving drug users clean needles. You are now fostering an environment where people can get shit faced and spend their cab money on booze knowing that they still have a ride .

The sector where I am offers a similar "no questions asked" cab ride (granted you have to go to the CDAR to get the pass or card or whatever it is.) But soon after this was brought up, I explained to my people that if you are going out on the town and you find yourself broke to the point where you can't afford cab fair (remember I'm on a 4x2 square mile island) then you may have an alcohol problem. I further explained that if you go out with $50 in your pocket and every bit of that is spent on alcohol, you may have a problem. I did say there will always be exceptions to the rule, ex: you run into a few friends and everyone is buying a round and you spend your last dollar on your turn. I am sure there are other reasonable excuses but you get the idea. Anyway, ultimately yes, I would rather people be taking these rides home rather than drinking and driving.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

I know this is extremis but I think of that the same way I think of giving drug users clean needles. You are now fostering an environment where people can get shit faced and spend their cab money on booze knowing that they still have a ride .


John...your example is beyond extremis. What North Bend CPOA is doing should be commended. They are trying to keep our shipmates safe. North Bend isn't encouraging people to drink. They're saying that when you drink (And they will), please don't drive home. If you get into that situation where you've had one to many (And they will), call for the free cab. I can't imagine that anyone is promoting drinking and spending all of your money by this free taxi program...

We all have our own ideas/thoughts about this topic. The bottom line is that it comes down to your comfort level. If you don't want alcohol at CG functions, don't have it. Again...I treat adults like adults until they give me a reason not to.

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

North Bend should be applauded for what they are doing ... helping keep impaired coasties from behind the wheel. It's still the choice of the Coastie to call the cab, from what I'm reading. The Coasties who call are exercising some adult decisions.

Having alcohol at a CG function should not be confused with having alcohol there to attract a crowd. Alcohol is the beverage of this topic. Having it there to "attract a crowd" certainly does indicate some other well rooted problems. Having it there as a choice of beverages is hospitable.

[AMTCM John Long]

Anyone that has done time in the Group North Bend/Coos Bay area knows there is not alot for the single folks to do. Often times the single folks go over to the valley or go south for something to do. One goal is to maybe keep them local if socializing. Hence the taxi rides. I will also note the enlisted folks were not the only ones who benefitted from it.
During my last tour there, it wasn't abused. It is a tool for the CPOA to use. The folks who did have failures either squared themselves up or were processed out.

[BMC John Phillips III]

I can't imagine that anyone is promoting drinking and spending all of your money by this free taxi program...

I hear you, but I never said anything about people spending my money.

[CWO Chris Sparkman (BMC)]

I have seen it many ways. I remember drinking at morale functions, I don't remember who purchase the booze. I do remember the Master Chief or Senior Chief there and I do recall acting accordingly. Not to say that things got turned up a bit after the command left..:D

Now, what do I do?? I do not purchase alcohol with Morale money, I do allow alchohol at CG Funcitons(if permitted by state, where ever we may be) Absolutely no alcohol on station during any CG function. Not the place IMO for a small town station with less than 30 folks to be throwing down. Not to say it would not work somewhere esle.

I have yet to have a problem with an over consumption of alcohol at any CG Function since I have been here. The crew acts like adults, they're treated like adults. I know the party is carried out elsewhere, after the "function", or it's turned up a bit after the Chief's, maybe the BM1's have gone. Bottom line, drink responsible. Otherwise, if you end up being the unlucky one who gets caught, stand by to pay the piper. Just the way I see it.

Some of our shipmates drink, no doubt. Under the age or over, it does not matter. I guess I have to ask, what have I got in place to give those who find themselves out drinking and drunk a choice. The crew knows they can call the station 24X7, heck I have used the station a couple of times...I think I was out with one of the training teams :rolleyes: They know they can call me or the XPO, the Surfman Chief...yeah right, like they are going to do that! At least we offer it to them.

I don't know who has the best preventative measurements out there, I just know I chat with the crew occasionally, remind them to have a plan, find a driver, walk home, take a taxi, hell I don't care, just be responsible, know your limits and if you feel the need to get stupid, rent Jacka$$ and see what stupid is!

I also can't sit here and say that when I was growing up in the Coast Guard I followed my own advise :o Maybe I was one of those who was lucky and never got caught, maybe I was one of those responsible ones with a plan.

Which ever one I was, I and I alone made the choices to drink or not drink. I also vividly remember the Master Chief telling us we would be held accountable for those choices.

So too will many other Coasties, be safe.

CS

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Strat, I'm not picking on you, but you are the one who wrote it........
No one has to figure out if someone is too drunk to drive. Alcohol impairs your judgement. We need to live by the "Don't DRINK and drive" motto. IMO, there is no need to explain that BAC calculator to our people either. If you drink, don't drive. Be responsibile for your actions.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

A little interesting reading on someone in the Navy who was not a "problem" drinker and yet, had to face the music.

[ETC (FT type) Ed Shank]

So, maybe it is only the people that are posting and we are not getting the full gamut of opinions. I drink, sometimes beyond what is responsible. So I guess this sets me apart from the rest of the responses on here since it appears no one on this board ever drinks, or has ever gotten drunk. I think that any program in place to assist people in avoiding trouble is commendable. I have used them on quite a few occasions. Now I will apply my immature mentality here and show why people don't use the programs.

A group decides they are going out on Friday night. Here is where they face the first choice, drive or cab. Cab costs money, and if the first bar they pick sucks they have to wait for a cab and pay to go to the next bar etc. We all know that you don't get rich in the CG so it is pretty obvious which one they pick.

Now it is time to go home, the bars are closed, the waffle house is full and they have to get home. Call a cab or drive. If you call a cab, your car WILL be towed and impounded, then you have to take a cab to the bar to figure out who towed it, and then take a cab to the impound lot and pay to get your car out. You also have to pay for any damages to your car done by the towing company. Or you can drive and take your chances. I realize, as do those that make the choice to drive, that a DUI is much more expensive, however that is a chance. The towing and impound is a guarantee. So they take a gamble. No matter how many times we tell them that a DUI costs 10's of thousand of dollars they will always drive because they have gotten away with it before.

Let's be realistic here. Coasties are going to drink, many times to excess and there is little that training is going to do. Heck we have training how many times a year and it still happens. Programs that are finacially beneficial, in the short term and don't get held over someone's head are what gets it done. Currently I have agreed to come get whoever needs it in my shop and I have others in the shop who have agreed to go with me to drive the member's car back so it doesn't get towed. I have gotten more calls since I started doing that, then when I just offered a ride.

[BMC John Phillips III]

Ed,

The bottom line is as adults - it should be the norm for people that intend on going out on the town to arrange for a designated driver. If that is not practical, then you should know ahead of time when and where you are going out and make plans on using a cab or other means. I am not buying that this bar is dead I am moving to the next one theory. That's called bar-hoping and it can almost always be done via the shoe-leather express. Plan your night out - be responsible and have fun! It can be done. As far as leaving your car and guaranteeing it gets towed, I don't know about that. A better guarantee is that if you drink and drive - eventually it's gonna catch up with you. Question is how badly.

That training we have that you mentioned is geared at doing exactly what I am talking about. Being responsible not only when consuming alcohol, but both before and after. It's not as complicated as everyone is making it out to be. All we have to do (as Chiefs and leaders) is ensure that our younger (or less mature so as not to stereotype) folks are provided with the necessary guidance, training, mentoring and/or direction in learning how to be responsible - a lesson that can be applied to many more useful things than drinking.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Dare I say it? Amen JP3!

[BMCM Deane Smith]

That training we have that you mentioned is geared at doing exactly what I am talking about. Being responsible not only when consuming alcohol, but both before and after. It's not as complicated as everyone is making it out to be. All we have to do (as Chiefs and leaders) is ensure that our younger (or less mature so as not to stereotype) folks are provided with the necessary guidance, training, mentoring and/or direction in learning how to be responsible - a lesson that can be applied to many more useful things than drinking.

I need to ask the question John...So,why can't you train your crews and provide the proper leadership and have alcohol at CG functions? If what your saying is true...you shouldn't have to worry about what might happen. Everyone will be well behaved - properly trained - perfectly led Coasties. So, why not allow alcohol at these functions?

[BMC John Phillips III]

I need to ask the question John...So,why can't you train your crews and provide the proper leadership and have alcohol at CG functions? If what your saying is true...you shouldn't have to worry about what might happen. Everyone will be well behaved - properly trained - perfectly led Coasties. So, why not allow alcohol at these functions?
BMCS Smith, debating with you has helped me improve as a person, I thank you for that. Normally I would see this as more of you questioning my abilities to provide the leadership you mentioned, but now I know that you are just asking a general question so I will do my best to answer. Even though in my mind (as quoted below) I already have.



That training we have that you mentioned is geared at doing exactly what I am talking about. Being responsible not only when consuming alcohol, but both before and after. It's not as complicated as everyone is making it out to be. All we have to do (as Chiefs and leaders) is ensure that our younger (or less mature so as not to stereotype) folks are provided with the necessary guidance, training, mentoring and/or direction in learning how to be responsible - a lesson that can be applied to many more useful things than drinking.

Geared at or toward, doesn't equate to success but it's better than the "they are gonna do what they are gonna do" philosophy of Ed's that I was responding to. Also keep in mind not all leaders are as effective and not all followers only follow the same leader. I haven't worked with every member of my unit for their entire career and while I know that I provide them with all the types of training I mentioned towards being responsible, I can't guarantee that they will be well behaved or perfectly led after I leave the party. I can tell you that they will be while I am there.




I have been to CG Morale functions where the sole purpose of the event was to have beer or alcohol. That has never done anything positive for my morale

I think the CG is moving away from these type actiivities and I know I am certainly doing my part. For the most part my unit's morale functions have not had alcohol except where it may be deemed appropriate (such as a Christmas party- celebration).

I have also seen other units moving towards doing more functions without placing an emphasis on alcohol.
I boldened points that support what I am saying.

Again, to paraphrase what someone else said, if you need alcohol to get people to show up to a morale function there is a bigger underlying problem than boosting morale and fun can be had without booze. I know, I have done it on more than a few occasions. Don't think that I don't drink, I just don't do it all the time.

As an added bonus, I always preach against underage drinking - always adding that I didn't start drinking until I was 22. I am not admonishing anyone that has drank underage, I just feel like that gives me a little more credibility when I tell the youngsters not to do it. (oh and if you are wondering why, it was for personal reasons)

[ETC (FT type) Ed Shank]

I can't guarantee that they will be well behaved or perfectly led after I leave the party

So they will do whatever they want? I am not saying the training is a bad idea, it is always easier to make decisions when you are educated, but it comes down to choices. I think we need to focus more on providing choices for people. The more choices we give them, the better. We need to approach it from their standpoint and actually give thought to their comments. Yes I mentioned bar hopping and if you go to Key West, or the strip in Vegas or the beach here in Va, you can do it on foot. Many places you can't walk from one bar to the other. I think if we give merit to the comments and concerns and not just blow it off as young and stupid and actually do our best to find solutions to them then we will be more succesful.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

BMCS Smith, debating with you has helped me improve as a person, I thank you for that. Normally I would see this as more of you questioning my abilities to provide the leadership you mentioned, but now I know that you are just asking a general question so I will do my best to answer. Even though in my mind (as quoted below) I already have.


John...whose telling you that you have improved as a person? (that was a joke, don't get all spun-up)

Normally, I would see your use of bold text in my quotes as you just being a jackass...but now I know what you are doing.

[BMC John Phillips III]

Quote:
I can't guarantee that they will be well behaved or perfectly led after I leave the party

So they will do whatever they want?

We need to approach it from their standpoint and actually give thought to their comments.

Ed, you can't just take that one sentence and ask the question that you did (well you can, but you shouldn't). In this instance, you have to consider the entire paragraph, but mostly this: "I haven't worked with every member of my unit for their entire career and while I know that I provide them with all the types of training I mentioned towards being responsible, I can't guarantee that they will be well behaved or perfectly led after I leave the party." Also consider that if we were all training our people to the same standard, then yes we could expect that most would behave and act responsibly. I say most because there are some that no matter what you do, are going to do something dumb.

I also have to say that I totally disagree with your "needing to approach it from their standpoint." Since when are leaders supposed to approach things from their subordinates standpoint? If what you are trying to say is consider what it's like to be them? I can buy off on that - a little, but if we are the leaders we think we are, then we know what's best for them. Through experiences, some of us have lived the mistakes we are trying to prevent and others have just seen it before. We have to convince our people that the "it won't happen to me" attitude is not the right attitude. We need to teach them that, "It could most definitely happen to me" and that they need to do all they can to prevent it. Which ultimately is the responsible approach.


John...whose telling you that you have improved as a person? Normally, I would see your use of bold text in my quotes as you just being a jackass...but now I know what you are doing.

Ha! that's classic! Thanks for the good laugh. I have been called a lot better by a lot worse people than you...or is that the other way around? :p Seriously, I was trying to be sincere as with some of your other questions for me in the past, I have taken personally and now I don't. So I have improved and just to answer your question, I looked in the mirror and I said, "You are good enough, you are smart enough and dog-gonnit people like you!" So I told myself that I am a better person :D

[BMC John Phillips III]

Sorry for the double post but just read this link on yahoo and thought I would share. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070130/ap_on_re_us/teen_drinking
The ACLU is against it.....

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Quote:
Also consider that if we were all training our people to the same standard, then yes we could expect that most would behave and act responsibly. I say most because there are some that no matter what you do, are going to do something dumb.

If what you are trying to say is consider what it's like to be them? I can buy off on that - a little, but if we are the leaders we think we are, then we know what's best for them. Through experiences, some of us have lived the mistakes we are trying to prevent and others have just seen it before. We have to convince our people that the "it won't happen to me" attitude is not the right attitude. We need to teach them that, "It could most definitely happen to me" and that they need to do all they can to prevent it. Which ultimately is the responsible approach.


JP3,

Yep, I'm only taking bits and pieces of your post, but on this issue, I'm in agreement with you.

I think that it is extremally important that we as Chiefs demonstrate how to act and behave responsibly. If a bunch of Chiefs are at a morale event, base club or out on the town just really enjoying their beer, what message are we sending to our junior Coasties?

They look at us and see our behavior and think that it is Okay for them to act in the same irresponsible [sic] manner.

I can't count the number of times I watched some of my CPO Academy Class mates making asses of themselves in the club, I can't tell you how many times, I have seen fellow CPOs acting like complete asses at official functions due to the over consumption of alcoholic beverages. I even put myself in that last category, and when I sobered up and realized what an ass I was, I decided that drinking wasn't for me and haven't touched a drop (except to cook) in 3 years.

It's a simple case of monkey see, monkey do -- what do you want your, our, my people to see Chief?

[AMTCM John Long]

JP3,
I think that it is extremally important that we as Chiefs demonstrate how to act and behave responsibly. If a bunch of Chiefs are at a morale event, base club or out on the town just really enjoying their beer, what message are we sending to our junior Coasties?

They look at us and see our behavior and think that it is Okay for them to act in the same irresponsible [sic] manner.

Steve,

I have also seen Chiefs behave different than I would. Might as well throw O's in there too. However, lets spin it this way and ask a question.

"Can a bunch of CPO's at a morale event, base club or out on the town just really enjoying their beer send a positive message to our junior Coasties?"

If done responsibly, I say yes, very much so!! Like anything, there is a right way and a wrong way. Maybe the Chief can be seen sticking to his/her limit, use a taxi or desig driver, helping out someone else, etc. That would be a good example for the junior folks to see.

In your example, it's not always a bad thing for the junior folks to see Chiefs drink responsibly and still have a good time. The two can be done.

All this coming from a non-drinker. ;)

My 2 cents.....John

[BMC John Phillips III]

PACS and AMTCM,

It seems as we all agree that as Chiefs we should be consuming, if not at least ensuring, that our people are consuming alcohol in a responsible manner. I will admit that I have seen Chiefs behave in both ways and yes, sadly, even some junior O's.

For those that may think I am anti-drinking or anti-alcohol, I am going to give what I see as a good example of consuming and enjoying alcohol responsibly. This past Veteran's Day my crew participated in the Veteran's Day Parade, the city really seemed to be genuinely appreciative of our service. So I decided to do something that I have always wanted to do (but to that point have never done before). I invited my crew to go out on the town so that we could mingle with all the folks that were waiving to us in the parade. I suggested that we should go out after the parade in uniform (the part I have always wanted to do but never had to that point) so that all the people that saw us in the parade would recognize us. After we returned from the parade we loaded up in my Jeep, I drove to the back gate and we walked around town getting thank you's and mingling face to face with all the people that were waiving to us in the parade. Of course people were offering to buy us "rounds" everywhere we went! I had two beers and enjoyed spending time with my crew as all the people thanked them continuously and gave them all kinds of positive attention for being in the Coast Guard. All of my people made prior arrangements for a ride home and I cut out relatively early. A great time was had by all and no one did anything stupid. Maybe wearing the uniform had something to do with it? Maybe/hopefully I set a good example of drinking responsibly and having a good time without overdoing it with the alcohol. Anyway, I just thought I would share that little "sea" story even though I am on land now.

BMCS Smith - no I am not applying for saint-hood, I just thought I would offer something positive - or at least something I see as positive.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

The alcohol issues continue to baffle me. People go from one extreme to the other. I don't see what the problem is. As long as you're drinking responsibily, what's the problem ?
The issue I see is with the unwillingness to hold some people accountable for breaking the law. None of us seems to be willing to look the other way if someone at your unit was doing drugs, yet others seem to be more than willing to allow people to drink underage or make excuses why drinking and driving isn't that big of an issue.
I hear too many people willing to take that helpless approach when it comes to enforcing alcohol standards. If people are going to drink and drive anyway.......I'm going to enforce our standards on them......anyway.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

There is no back and forth for me --

Responsible Consumption -- Yes!
Alcohol at Morale Events -- Limited
Personal Accountability -- Enforce It!

[BMCM Deane Smith]

There is no back and forth for me --

Responsible Consumption -- Yes!
Alcohol at Morale Events -- Limited
Personal Accountability -- Enforce It!

What does "Limited" mean to you?

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Not necessary at every event and with command discretion and enforce the current policies regarding underage drinking, DUI, etc. If it is abused, just once, it is one time too many.

I was at a Cultural Heritage Awareness Event in E-City and there was a beer wagon with free beer -- Nothing says Cultural Heritage like an ice-cold Bud!

That is ridiculous.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

I'd say, why not? As long as those that participate are of legal age, hold them accoutable for their actions... Why punish everyone... Doesn't that remind you of something that was done in 2nd grade?

Wray.... :cool:

[BMC John Phillips III]

Not necessary at every event and with command discretion and enforce the current policies regarding underage drinking, DUI, etc. If it is abused, just once, it is one time too many.

I was at a Cultural Heritage Awareness Event in E-City and there was a beer wagon with free beer -- Nothing says Cultural Heritage like an ice-cold Bud!

That is ridiculous.

Amen back at you Senior!!! This is exactly the thing I am talking about.

Wray, why not is because it's not necessary. If you want to drink beer do you really have to go the the Cultural Heritage Awareness Event to do it? Or are you being lured there by the beer. Seriously...

Our culture in the Coast Guard for a long time has been that if there was no beer or booze involved there was no fun. I think it's time to let go of that, I don't need a morale event to justify getting drunk, I just need a few beers and my own free will. (I say beers but I would actually go with vodka or rum).

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Our culture in the Coast Guard for a long time has been that if there was no beer or booze involved there was no fun. I think it's time to let go of that, I don't need a morale event to justify getting drunk, I just need a few beers and my own free will. (I say beers but I would actually go with vodka or rum).

C'mon John...Our culture?...I think that's a bit of a stretch.

I've been to plenty of events and they are fun or not with or without alcohol. It's typically the company that makes the fun, not the alcohol.


Wray, why not is because it's not necessary. If you want to drink beer do you really have to go the the Cultural Heritage Awareness Event to do it? Or are you being lured there by the beer. Seriously...

There are plenty of things that we do everyday that are not necessary, that argument doesn't really hold much value. We're talking about consenting adults making adult decisions. Where will it end? How about we ban smoking from morale events? There are people that don't want to be around second hand smoke.

This argument is about holding people accountable. Let's not treat our people like children, lets treat them like adults until they give us a reason not to.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Amen back at you Senior!!! This is exactly the thing I am talking about.

Wray, why not is because it's not necessary. If you want to drink beer do you really have to go the the Cultural Heritage Awareness Event to do it? Or are you being lured there by the beer. Seriously...

John, I didn't mean that there should be beer or alcohol at every event... but I do not feel it should be excluded at EVERY event as well....

How about CG Day parties?? Certainly feel it should be provided there... Same with Christmas parties... What do you think?

Wray... :cool:

[BMC John Phillips III]

I agree with you, I am not against having alcohol at CG sponsored events provided it's an appropriate atmosphere. What I am against is alcohol being the sole purpose of the event, not being used as bait as in the scenerio PACS presented. To me alcohol is like mustard, it's only good with certain things (of course they both go good with hotdogs) but you get the idea.

I think a good tool to determine whether or not alcohol is necessary is celebration(CG Day and Christmas definitely fall in that category). If you are celebrating something alcohol is acceptable. I can't think of many other morale related activities where alcohol is necessary or even justified really. Perhaps sporting events that are not competitive, like a "for fun" softball tournament or golf - I would keep it out of competitive sports or any other morale day. I am racking my brain right now to think of other occasions where alcohol is appropriate, but I can't think of any. Again, even when it is appropriate to have alcohol, that should never be the sole purpose for the event whatever it is.

Which brings me to a dirty word that I am surprised no one has mentioned. What are your feelings on "wetting downs?" They totally fall under my stance of making alcohol acceptable as the intent at least is celebrating a promotion; but is it just another excuse for people to get hammered? I have mixed feelings.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

I've been at CG events where alcohol was present, but I've never been at ANY event where alcohol was the SOLE purpose of the event. I've been in leagues (softball, darts, pool) where alcohol was always available, but I always had the choice to drink or not.

I don't have a problem with a "Wetting Down" because (broken record) it should be a group of adults making adult decisions. The sole purpose of a wetting down is to celebrate an advancement/promotion. I've never attended a wetting down solely because alcohol was going to an optional drink item.

I think a good tool to determine whether or not alcohol is necessary is celebration(CG Day and Christmas definitely fall in that category).

John...alcohol is never necessary and we shouldn't have a list of when it is appropriate. This issue is about adults making adult decisions and being responsible for their actions/behavior. I'm not going to keep a chart in my wallet to use when I need to determine whether alcohol should be present...that's what common sense is for.

[BMC John Phillips III]

John...alcohol is never necessary and we shouldn't have a list of when it is appropriate. This issue is about adults making adult decisions and being responsible for their actions/behavior. I'm not going to keep a chart in my wallet to use when I need to determine whether alcohol should be present...that's what common sense is for.

Ok, I figured I would go with underline cause I know how you feel about bold :D

Seriously, you got me, I totally used the wrong word there. I should have said whether alcohol is acceptable.

Now I am thinking I want to call you the master of implications, because of course you don't need a little card to determine it and of course it is common sense. And since you have so much of it, you can figure out what I mean by "the master of implications."

[BMC John Phillips III]

I've been at CG events where alcohol was present, but I've never been at ANY event where alcohol was the SOLE purpose of the event.

I also have to address this, even though it seems so simple. It was not your sole purpose for attending the event, but how many non-rates really care what JG is making LT? They aren't there to celebrate the promotion, they are there for the free beer.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

how many non-rates really care what JG is making LT? They aren't there to celebrate the promotion, they are there for the free beer.

Non-rated personnel shouldn't be at a LT's wetting down in the first place...it's not appropriate. Bad example.

Alcohol is not the sole purpose of going anywhere. Socializing is always at least an equal reason for going to a party (or other event with alcohol present).

[BMC John Phillips III]

I agree they don't belong there, but it's not my bad example; no enlisted people belong there, but it happens. Just like alcohol does become the primary or sole reason behind events such as wetting downs. I think overall we agree that alcohol can be consumed by adults and should always be consumed responsibly. I think where we aren't seeing eye to eye (not an invitation for a height joke :p) is that you don't think that alcohol is ever the primary or sole purpose for CG Morale events and I do. I don't think it's right...but undoubtedly it has happened. I know it has happened because I have seen it. Is it still happening? I would like to think no, but I am not that naive.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

I'll have to agree with Deane... Don't think I have been to anything, other than a MLE function at RTC, that they provided me booze so they could conduct sobriety tests, (damn I loved that).... that alcohol was the main purpose of the event....

Even "wetting downs" and the old CPO Initiations that wasn't the main purpose... Was alcohol available.. certainly.. and some over indulged occasionally, as did I... but not every time. Bottom line, I was the one responsible for my actions, no one else. Making decisions is part of being an adult... it is also an exercise in leadership....

Oh, non rates at a wetting down :eek: not in my day.... :p

Wray.... :cool:

[BMCS Nick Pupo]

The last time I saw alcohol as the sole purpose of an event was in High School. We'd go to a place called the "flat-top" cause you could see every car coming up the road. But there were plenty of escape routes incase the police came up the road.
We never ask where the party was, just what time do we start.
Anyway back on point.

As for CG Morale events, wetting downs, CCTI's, Christmas Parties, Beginning/End of SAR Season parties. Nope never the main focus of the event but was there alcohol present? Yes.
My opinion is this, do people like to drink, yes. So as long as they do it responsibily then what's the big deal.
If you disagree with Morale paying for alcohol. Then make a suggestion next time there's a party. Alcohol is allowed but its BYOB.

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

I have enjoyed reading the posts here. I have my opinions (as you all know), but most have been expressed. What I do have to add it my experience as a BM2 on a 110. My XO made LT and had a wetting down. Invited the whole crew. I thought that was a good thing. Brought an already tight crew even more together. Non-rates and all. One of which is at OCS now.

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

I agree with Jim.

In some cases, the celebration would be very sparse if the whole crew wasn't invited to celebrate the advancement.

I also agree it's not typical, and it did happen during my time.

Only once during the initiations I've attended, was someone ejected for over-indulging. That JO was sent to his stateroom by his XO.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

I have enjoyed reading the posts here. I have my opinions (as you all know), but most have been expressed. What I do have to add it my experience as a BM2 on a 110. My XO made LT and had a wetting down. Invited the whole crew. I thought that was a good thing. Brought an already tight crew even more together. Non-rates and all. One of which is at OCS now.

Jim...In this case, I agree with everyone being invited. I didn't consider this type of small unit wetting down. Thanks for the reality check.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

As far as what alcohol could actually cost you,....direct people to this...