ANT Coxswain Cert. and Unit Procedures

[BMCS Ian McVicker]

JP3 and I were recently discussing this topic, and thought it might be a good idea to start a thread to see what everyone else in the ANT field does (well, except for Burt). I am mainly asking about cert and ops on the larger ATON small boats (ie..49, 55, 64), so here goes.

1. Do you require the mbr to be fully ATON qualed on the boat, before getting certified as Coxswain? I guess an example would be if you got in a BM from a station that was certified on a standard boat, but had no ATON qualification or experience, would you allow them to do the Coxswain cert first to help out boat crews, or make them go through all the other stuff first.

2. Based on your area or operations, do you have requirements above and beyond the PQS for certifying as Coxswain?

3. Do you have special procedures or orders in place at your unit for Coxswain requirements based on things like operation type, distance limitations, over night trips?

I am just very curious on what everyone does based on their circumstances.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I treat everything seperately. There is no requirement to qualify in any area of AtoN before qualifying as a coxswain. I want my coxswain to be able to drive the boat. Understanding how the deck is run would help him out, but isn't required.
I don't require someone to qualify on the crane before I let them run the deck or vise versa. Two seperate evolutions. Would knowing the one make you do the other better, sure, but it isn't required.
I do require someone to be a qualified AtoN Tech before they can run the deck.

As for part three of your question, we have requirements on the use of the 55' outside of the immediate area based on the other operations that the boat could encounter. The 55' has to have either myself or the XPO onboard for all evolutions.

The TANB is limited to sheltered waters only, so those restriction don't apply. We will probably revisit that once we get the new TANB sometime in '08.

[BMC Eddie Lawrence]

Interesting topic. Personally I would want the individual to be Coxswain certified as soon as possible. With that said who says they can't be working on their ATON quals at the same time. If there new to the ATON world or have never attend MAM or the Road show then they can't be qualified/certified/hold the qual code for Aton Tech anyway. Until, they have been through the road show, or NATON and satifactorly performed the ATON misson aboard your unit for six months and you say they can have the qual code! If they can be qualified as a coxswain fairly quickly, I would say why hold them up.

As far as limiting them when you qualify them as a coxswain I have always had the opinion " If I qualified them as coxswain, then they were qualified!" When there qualified to run the boat, there qualified to run the boat for all evolutions that boat is designed for. They can get themselves into just as much trouble in sight of their own moorings as they could 100 miles away. With all that said, what it really boils down to with you as the OIC is "whatever gives you the warm and fuzzy!"

[BMC Mark D. Emerson]

This is interesting - here is my read on this.

If I have someone that has been standard boat qualified I still require them to get crewman qualified on the BUSL, rigger, deck supervisor and then a-frame operator then Coxswain. It does extendf the time frame to get qualified but that way they understand the evolution - all parts of it- that way they understand they evolution that they are responsible for.

Working buoys from the BUSL requires an indepth knowledge of the evolution, that can only be gained (in my opinion) by working the deck, runnign the deck and the A-frame. Once the BM's (no MK's have shown intrest) have qualified as Crew they will have the opertunity to rotate through all of these spots and including driving and working on the buoys.

Due to the expanse of my AOR, we transit with 2 coxswains, that way they can take a break, grab lunch , etc. We are transiting up to 2 days to work some of the buoys on the 3rd, most of this transit is in the ICW. the Crewman and Break-in crewman serve in the role of a QMOW and the coxn drives or stands by an addition crewman that drives. The auto pilot is used off shore but someone is always next to it or sitting in the chair to monitor the course/depth/RADAR. Having 2 coxns also fills the requirement to have someone that is AP qualifed durring the Buoy evolution, seperate from the COXN. This may change after a pending ECR is put in to repositon the portable positing computer.

Thoughts from any other BUSL ANTs

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Eddie, I'm with you on qualifying them for all the evolutions the platform is designed for, however, in our AOR, they may encounter situations that it isn't. With most of the areas that we work in, we're going to be the only Coast Guard around. We run the risk of encountering AIMOs or other illegal activites anytime we leave the local area. Our coxswains don't neccessarily have a law enforcement background. We don't carry weapons. Our coxswains qualify to run the boat. Our command cadre train to handle the big picture issues that the crew might face. We don't limit who can qualify as coxswain. We do restrict who can take the 55' ANB to areas where ATON might end up taking a back seat. I've always said it was easier for me to give someone a letter as a DWO on the cutter, than a coxswain letter for a small boat. It is all about that warm fuzzy. There is a big difference between what someone is going to do when you're on the other end of a sound powered phone, than what can happen when it's the other end of a radio or cell phone.
We also always use two coxswains whenever we get underway for any scheduled AtoN evolutions on the 55' ANB that might require lift. If we were only doing discrepancy reponse or conducting a lighted service, one coxswain would be able to do the job. But if we need to lift the Aid, the coxswain isn't running the deck, he's driving the boat. We currently have three people who run the deck. Those same three people are also the only ones who are coxswain qualified on the 55. The only non-coxswain that I ever had who showed an interest in qualifying to run the deck, transferred last year.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Ian go to........ok you cant read it.

I required, on the BUSL(yes I actually had one, well two, A and B class) that the Coxswain qualify Aton, BDS then Coxswain. I also required all MKs to be ATON, BDS and Crane. We only needed 1 coxswain but of course you needed A BDS in addition too so it usually ended up with 2 coxwains.

[BMCS R. Scott Pugh]

I think they are two separate quals. Plus, we only work buoys with the BUSL early in the spring and later in the fall (at least as part of my normal workload - not counting training). So putting someone in a "holding pattern" until we have our hectic schedule would not ideal for Buffalo.

Side bar --- how do some of you handle the AOR requirements for currency maintenance? Do you make special trips to various points of your AOR to put a check in that box for currency purposes.

[BMC John Phillips III]

Ian,

Thanks for posting this, sorry for joining the conversation late, someone else must have posted another thread and covered this one up on the main forum. Anyway, as everyone knows by now, I am opinionated so here's my take on what's been said so far.

I treat everything seperately.
I don't require someone to qualify on the crane before I let them run the deck or vise versa. Two seperate evolutions. Would knowing the one make you do the other better, sure, but it isn't required.
I do require someone to be a qualified AtoN Tech before they can run the deck.
Master Chief, on construction tenders it is required. The PQS is laid in a very logical orderly fashion from deck rigger all the way up to safety observer. Being qual'd crane operator is a prerequisite for CDS. The order goes something like this: deck rigger, oxy-acetylene, chainsaw, crane operator, aton tech, deck sup.

The BOAT Manual ACM (aton crewmember) section is laid out in a similar fashion. Although I would have to reread to see if there is anything saying one section has to be completed before the other.


Personally I would want the individual to be Coxswain certified as soon as possible. With that said who says they can't be working on their ATON quals at the same time.
Ed, would you qualify a coxswain on a 21' if they have never set a trub or trlb? Wire dragged (if you're allowed in your aor) etc?



If I have someone that has been standard boat qualified I still require them to get crewman qualified on the BUSL, rigger, deck supervisor and then a-frame operator then Coxswain. It does extendf the time frame to get qualified but that way they understand the evolution - all parts of it- that way they understand they evolution that they are responsible for.

Working buoys from the BUSL requires an indepth knowledge of the evolution, that can only be gained (in my opinion) by working the deck, runnign the deck and the A-frame. Once the BM's (no MK's have shown intrest) have qualified as Crew they will have the opertunity to rotate through all of these spots and including driving and working on the buoys.
Mark, I totally agree with you on everything except the MK interest thing. The way I am reading that you are not requiring them to running the deck? In fairness to my coxswains, I want my MK's to get qual'd to BDS and I require crane operator.

Finally, Scott, in your scenerio I can totally see not holding them up do to the timeline of your AOR runs. I would imagine that when you are able to do the run, you don't let the newly qual'd coxswain run it solo - or without qual'd bds. I have seen similar acceptions made for things like weight test requirements for BDS, since weight tests are usually only done once a year.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

So now you're comparing boats and cutters ? Let's follow that theory, your BM1 shows up at the unit and wants to get qualified as a coxswain on your 55'ANB. So you have him get his AtoN Tech stuff done, then train him to work on the deck, get him qualified to operate the crane, break him in to run the deck, qualifiy him as buoy deck supervisor,........ now he's ready to break in as boatcrew, go through his engineering quals, qualify as a coxswain, and he can drive the boat the last two weeks before he transfers to his next unit.
John, you're qualifing the guy as a coxswain. You can look through the Boat Manual all you want, you wouldn't see where the coxswain needs to be able to give the crane operator hand signals. It will never tell you that the XPO needs to qualify as a BDS. It will tell you that the XPO needs to qualify as coxswain on every platform you have at the unit.
On those cutters, did the OODs needs to qualify as BDSs first ? The AtoN skills and boat handling skills are two different things.

[BMC John Phillips III]

So now you're comparing boats and cutters ? Let's follow that theory, your BM1 shows up at the unit and wants to get qualified as a coxswain on your 55'ANB. So you have him get his AtoN Tech stuff done, then train him to work on the deck, get him qualified to operate the crane, break him in to run the deck, qualifiy him as buoy deck supervisor,........ now he's ready to break in as boatcrew, go through his engineering quals, qualify as a coxswain, and he can drive the boat the last two weeks before he transfers to his next unit.'

Come on - they can work on all those things at the same time and you have to agree that the learning curve for a BM1 is much better (faster) than it would be for a newer or lower paygrade member.

You are making the mistake of thinking that I have not sat and thought long and hard on this issue. Before I go any further, we can settle this by reiterating that everyone here pretty much agrees "warm and fuzzy" is the biggest requirement for any type of coxswain qual. And as you stated, it's almost tougher than qualifying an DWO.

Ok, having consulted with several 55' ANT OIC's, I decided to stick with my original thought process that my 55' coxswains should be qual'd at every job applicable to the boat except boat ENG. I have enough ENG's qualified to take one with me everytime the boat moves. What I don't have is a surplus of BDS and Crane operators, hence my Coxswains should be BDS qual'd and ENG should be crane operators. I know the coxswain will not be driving and running the deck at the same time, but they can certainly drive the boat and supervise a breakin. Moreso acting as a safety supervisor, which by the CDS PQS CDS is a prerequisite. Not to mention the fact that on the 55' most times the crane operator can run the deck alone with a spotter for any areas where they can't see. I could go ahead and qual anyone that meets the minimum requirement for driving the 55' but what's the point if I need to hold their hand or seperately qualify someone else as BDS? Should I have my non-rates qual BDS so that my E5's and 6's can get the 55' underway to do ATON? I only have 11 people, that won't work for me. I will go with Ed on this one - qualified is qualified and when my 55' coxswains are qualified they are/will be qualified. I will stick with AOR restrictions same as you have to with lower than command cadre coxswains, but that's a whole other discussion.

Finally, I am not saying what you are doing is wrong, I am just saying that it's not right for me.

[BMC John Phillips III]

http://cgweb2.comdt.uscg.mil/CGDIRECTIVES/CIM/CIM_16534_2.PDF

55 ANB handbook is finally out!

[BMCS Eric Guerette]

Just like on any other boat, I have the Coxswains qual boat crew first. If you don't get a feel ATON ops while qualifying as crew then you probably can't handle a coxswain cert either.
We have allot of long transit days and not many great places to tie up away from home. Plus the areas we transit are all wide open. Most trips that are planned beyond 5-6 hours end up with 2 coxswains.
I would love to have the 55' back here (it left right before I arrived) but for now I'll have to make do.
Every unit is different and as good as standardization has been this is one area we should each be trusted to do our own thing.

[BMC Russell Miller]

I have one of the new 26ft TANB's, I have talk in great length with the Stan Team. All my 21ft TANB Coxswains had to do the Boatcrew member task first, before doing the coxswain task. The Stan Team and RFO teams are checking to see if you did. If you have a member coming from a station as a qual coxswain, crew, or eng they are still required to do the type task for for each platform. For the 55 I always had my breakin coxswain learn the deck, BDS, and crane before I would qual them. I also required that they go to positioning school before they get their qual. That just me. The new TANB is one sweet boat by the way