CO/OINC Relief for Cause

[BMCM Deane Smith]

There seems to be more and more CO/OINC's getting relieved for cause. Recent examples include inappropriate relationships, hazing, hazarding a cutter, etc. These infractions are no brainers, you're going to get relieved!

So, what's the problem?

Are these people being put in command positions that they shouldn't be in? Is the system broke? Or (more likely in my opinion), are the CO/OINC's renegades that feel they can do what they want and don't have to suffer the consequences? Is their own arrogance catching up to them?

Thoughts???

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I'll have to agree with you on the part of the arrogance, in my opinion, they feel as though they have elevated themselves to a position beyond reproach or repraisals. The system is broke inasmuchas the people who elevated them to those positions refused to take action when it was their duty to do so. I don't feel as though any of the recent reliefs occurred as a result of momentary lapses in judgement, rather a history of standard operating procecures that were eventually exposed, and exploded. Again I was not present or privy to the totality of the events, I'm merely piecing together the puzzle from the published reports and rumor control. I do not believe that any of these events were isolated or one time occurences, nor did the members wait until reaching E-8 status to develop the mindset that allowed these actions to occur on their watch. Accountability...........I enlisted at a time when CPOs would walk across the base to tell a CAPT to take his hands out of his pocket. Now we have supervisor who are unwilling to report violations of the UCMJ because it may draw unwanted attention and additional work in their direction. The enlisted command is being eaten away my friends, both externally and internally. Fewer members are putting themselves on the line to certify for command every year. More than half of next year's new 87's will go to JO's are foaming at the mouth for the opportunity to lead. Standards have been put in place in the forms of enlisted evaluations and command recommendations that are either being misused or ignored in order to avoid confrontations with non-performers. Any BMC or above who refuses to appear before an OinC review board should be marked accordingly. For those of us who have chosen the BM path, command is the natural progression.
Too many times we see someone unable or unwilling to pass the board, simply go the warrant route to by-pass this hurdle. There are many great Warrant BOSN's out there that proudly serve and toe the line daily. However there are a great many Warrants, as well as 7s, 8s, 9s who continue to prosper well past their station in life simply because their supervisors refuse to enforce a standard.
And what message are we sending to the junior enlisted?

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

I disagree that relief's-for-cause are the result of a long history of misbehavior that suddenly come to light. Our COs/OICs are hand-picked and scrutinized for years before they assume the role. Momentary lapses in judgement are exactly the reason they falter.

I think, also, that statistics will show that OICs are relieved more often than COs- probably because they spend longer periods of time in command positions. That doesn't mean that they are less capable, it just means that the odds begin to stack up against them.

And, I'll go one step further. If you have been an OIC or CO for more than one tour, somewhere along the way, your crew or command cadre have probably saved you from yourself. I know OICs/COs that have gone through personal crisis and subsequent drinking binges that were protected by their crews, OICs/COs that have made poor operational decisions that were corrected by their crews, and OICs/COs that became overwhelmed and were assisted by their crews. They weathered those times and continued to be excellent leaders.

OICs/COs are people. Fallable, imperfect people. Their success really does rely on the support and loyalty they get from their crews. When they get relieved, it is an indication of much more than just their behavior. It reflects on the entire crew.

[BMCS Shawn Vredenburg]

Dennis: Couldn't have said it better. I think you're absolutely right concerning the odds, and the crew taking care of you.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Dennis I think that there is some time for personal reflection here. Too many of your associates go from the personal crisis to the bottle. There is something to said in that. I am all for the crew looking out for the CO/OinC and vise versa, but as OinCs we need to start taking a strong stance on our own personal actions. When you as an OinC violate COMDT policy or the UCMJ and expect your crew to bail you out or cover for you doesn't that diminish your credibility and authority to govern. How can you hold someone to a standard that you are not willing to measure yourself against. How can you pick and choice which policies you are going to enforce and which ones your crew can ignore. Aren't you worried that if they ever got into any real trouble, the kind you couldn't possibly cover for, that they could use your inappropriate actions as a shield for someone with bigger fish to fry. As for hand selected or scutinized .....?..... I know of several people that I wondered how they got thru the board. One in particular was unable to form sentences in the midst of his fellow chiefs, how he answer questions and presented a command appearance to seven strangers is beyond me. I think if we had all of the facts present you would see that the vast majority of recent RFC were infractions that you would have placed one of your own crew on report for anyway. The inappropriate relationships, hazings, and disregard for safety standard are things that have been beaten into heads over the past ten years. The last time I heard of someone getting relieved for cause where alcohol was a factor was where the OinC continually came to work loaded, and one day got into an aurgument with his OPCON over a SAR case. I know of four people off the top of my head that have run a cutter aground and not been relieved. I don't know of any that have done it twice and are still in command. I also wouldn't rule out the officers taking care of their own as one of the reasons CO are relieved less often. I have seen or heard of instances of fraternization where the CO was allowed to leave rather than be relieved. Again, many of the reasons for relief are either a culmination of events and the straw that broke the camels back, or a singular event so blatantly offensive that it warranted removal. But feel free to get back with me with any specific incidents where you know me to be wrong on this. I am always willing to learn from my own mistakes or the mistakes of others.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

I need to reflect, huh? Ok.

We obviously have had different experiences during our time in service. I've never met the kind of OIC/CO that you describe. Every one that I've known has faltered somehow/somewhere along the way. It didn't make them bad leaders or bad people, it just demonstrated that they're human. When their crews covered, corrected, or assisted them, it was from a sense of loyalty. The OIC/CO did not solicit their help, they just gave it. And, you know what? In the end, they provided the same great leadership that was present before their incident.

Another interesting point. I can't come up with near as many examples of COs/OICs being relieved as you did. I guess we really don't travel in the same circles.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

We are not even talking about the same things. The people that you are talking about were obviously great leaders who had their crew rally around them and they were not relieved because the story never left the ship. The people I am talking about were not those great leaders, whose crews could not wait to spill the beans and hang someone that they could not stand out to dry. The examples I'm using are recent relief for causes, you are showing examples of leadership and unity.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

Maybe. But, a great leader can walk into a bad situation and get burned. My original point was that a ROC is an indication of the crew as much as the OIC/CO. You can have the last word.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

And I remember when the XPO was relieved along with OinC because one was there to assist the other. Depending on the situation......

[BMCM Deane Smith]

OK, I just heard of another RFC at an enlisted command. That makes at least 4 in the past few weeks and there's probably more that I haven't heard about.

Does anyone know if the numbers are rising or if this is pretty much how it goes every year? It seems like there's a rising number.

[ETCS David Kroll]

I guess this is the one benefit of not getting a pin.

[CMC Bruce Bradley]

Yes, there have been more than the normal amount of RFCs lately on the enlisted side. Yes, some outstanding leaders with what up to then was an outstanding track record. Some were relieved for nothing more than losing the bubble. Which might become more and more set-up with the current state of the enlisted command pool. Even though I hate the phrase now call it loss of situational awareness due to command fatigue. That means having to have your butt on the line too much for too long without a break.

We seem to be so short of those willing to step up and command that those that are can't get a break from it, if they want one. How many retirements have been denied in the name of this shortage? How many select and direct orders have been issued in the name of this shortage? Don't take me wrong this isn't the reason for all of the RFCs, some of those just blew it.

Yes the numbers are rising, up by about 35-40% last report I read. If you drop those ones out then we are still maintaining the same level that we have historically. Sad part of that is that we don't learn from our mistakes so the numbers don't drop. We will always have some since RFCs as we are all only human and therefore make mistakes. Bottom line is that I think the organization owns some of the blame for the current state.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

The number of retirements being denied or postponed is way up. I know of a couple of people who have retired one day only to be called back into service the next day to take over an ANT or an 87'. The thing that you have to remember is that all of those recalls were voluntary. You can always retire in lieu of orders, as some people have. We also have people being offered OinC jobs that they never certified for because there is either no available certified person for the billet, or no certified person was asking for it.
Bottom line is, that it is better to go out on your own terms rather than someone elses. And if you don't want the job, make that point clear before you accept orders. If you take a job or an area that you don't want, and then fail to do the job that you accepted, eventually you will be found out and removed. I'm not claiming to be an expert on the RFC process, nor do I claim to know all of the circumstances that were involved, but of the cases that I have heard of recently, I am not shocked that the relief took place.

[ETCS Robert Kelley]

I guess this is the one benefit of not getting a pin.

Dave,

There are many benefits to "getting the pin" that shouldn't be overlooked. We are in one of the rare rates with a position to step up into. I have been XPO of a CommSta and now OIC of another, it is a great feeling to be able to take care of your people while getting the job done the way you know how. If you are fortunate enough to have a good crew and can lead them to excel then the rewards of personal growth for your crew and autonomy of command can not be matched in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, it is not always easy but it is the most rewarding assignment I have ever had and I would gladly take another. (I wounder if my detailer reads these boards?)

Bob