ET OIC's at ESD's?

[ETCS David Kroll]

Hello All,
I would still like to see ESD supervisors become OIC's. Why should a LORAN Station have an OIC with 4 people assigned to it when an ESD with 10-20 people and large AOR not? I know the argument of they want the ESU to be in charge and they don't want each ESD doing their own thing. I also know it is a money issue. But come on 4 people, 2 transmitters and 1 building and your an OIC. When an ESD has up to 20 people, 10 cutters, numerous small boats and AORs that covers mulitple states aren't? :eek:
Thoughts/comments?
Dave

[BMCS Ian McVicker]

Hello All,
I would still like to see ESD supervisors become OIC's. Why should a LORAN Station have an OIC with 4 people assigned to it when an ESD with 10-20 people and large AOR not? I know the argument of they want the ESU to be in charge and they don't want each ESD doing their own thing. I also know it is a money issue. But come on 4 people, 2 transmitters and 1 building and your an OIC. When an ESD has up to 20 people, 10 cutters, numerous small boats and AORs that covers mulitple states aren't? :eek:
Thoughts/comments?Dave


Dave, I think you answered your own question. The ESD has far more people, larger area, and much more responsibility. In the SAR Station field we have units with CWO and LT CO's due to the size, amount of people, ect. Not to burst your bubble, but I think ET's are pretty lucky to have the LORAN STA OIC jobs. That's pretty good duty for a rating that is not groomed, officially trained to be in Command, and don't have to sit a board to do it. I think expecting the ETC/ETCS to be a stand alone OIC of an ESD is a little unrealistic.

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

I am not sure that this is the answer, but I will through it out there. Units that have CO's / OIC's, directly support the public. ESD's are detachments that are internal support units. Maybe that is why they aren't OIC jobs. I am not sure, but it makes and argument.

[ETCS David Kroll]

I'm not sure your right. Alot of units that don't directly support the public have CO's. ISC's, ESU's just to name 2. I think it was mainly a money thing at the time we went from ESMT's that worked for the Groups to ESU/ESD's that work for MLC's. We should at least get a pin. I mean come on, the M types have a pin, we need pins in the ET/IT world.
:)

[CMC Bruce Bradley]

Dave I don't think you would want too many of us out here weighting in on the ET OinC issue. You may well indeed have many valid points to your arguement in the desire for the OinC insignia and the associated SDAP. But just as soon as your certification and selction process becomes a mirror of ours, it's all just an apples and oranges thing in my opinion.

[ETC Pat Kaschube]

When compared with the responsibilities of a supervisor at a LORAN unit ETC's at ESD's could easily be considered for the OINC title. When compared with the responsibilities of a small boat station, I'm not so sure. We do have a lot of responsiblities technically, administratively and as leaders but our folks aren't on the boat's themselves in the middle of the night on a SAR case. Our big safety issues revolve around tower climbing, the very nature of working with electronics and in some areas, travel on a duty call in nasty weather. We do manage our own budget and do all our own purchasing. No SK's which the stations in my AOR have. We can issue and approve travel orders, etc, etc. I've tossed this back and forth a number of times and I've never come up with a strong opinion one way or the other.
There are days when I think OINC wouldn't even come close to describing the nature of this job and then there are days when I can't truly believe I'm getting paid to do this job. Then again I have excellent people in my shop even though one of them is an Eagles fan and one of them a Giants fan and one other is a Redskins fan.

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

Pat,

You may be correct but you might want to remember the sword of Damocles (http://www.livius.org/sh-si/sicily/sicily_t11.html) story.

ET's have been OIC since the days of Loran-A up to 1980 with the brief respite till 1987 with the Loran-C stations. In Nov 1988 every ETC billet on Loran Stations were officially designated to receive the SDAP and authorized to wear the device.

Does the ESD supervisor do everything outlined in CIM 5000.3B pertaining to CO/OINC? If so, then I would agree for you to get the SDAP and the device.

I disagree with the grooming aspect, but I do see where the Senior Chief is coming from. Those serving aboard the Loran Stations are certainly being groomed, at least on mine and others with like minded Chiefs.

I'm sure being board certified is another issue, but when you compare the RFC ratios, you will find both are extremely low considering the population being sampled. There has been about 68 OICs on Loran Stations since 1988 and one RFC to my knowledge. There was a questionable early rotation that I thoght would have been a RFC according to the scuttlebutt. I don't have a clue on the RFCs at the former RADSTA's transmitter sites [another ET OIC billet] nor the ESMT [TT's as OIC].

[ETC Emiliano Acuna]

Pat,

You may be correct but you might want to remember the sword of Damocles (http://www.livius.org/sh-si/sicily/sicily_t11.html) story.

ET's have been OIC since the days of Loran-A up to 1980 with the brief respite till 1987 with the Loran-C stations. In Nov 1988 every ETC billet on Loran Stations were officially designated to receive the SDAP and authorized to wear the device.

Does the ESD supervisor do everything outlined in CIM 5000.3B pertaining to CO/OINC? If so, then I would agree for you to get the SDAP and the device.

I disagree with the grooming aspect, but I do see where the Senior Chief is coming from. Those serving aboard the Loran Stations are certainly being groomed, at least on mine and others with like minded Chiefs.

I'm sure being board certified is another issue, but when you compare the RFC ratios, you will find both are extremely low considering the population being sampled. There has been about 68 OICs on Loran Stations since 1988 and one RFC to my knowledge. There was a questionable early rotation that I thoght would have been a RFC according to the scuttlebutt. I don't have a clue on the RFCs at the former RADSTA's transmitter sites [another ET OIC billet] nor the ESMT [TT's as OIC].

Joe,
I was able to talk to a couple ETCM's about this one. We are eligible for OIC designations at LORAN and COMMSTA's because they are deemed Operational units.
I too made the arguement for OIC designation because of our AOR and responsibilites. I was told that OIC for ESD's will never happen. But, on the flip side, there is a hell of an arguement for SDAP. But... after talking with the ET RFMC Bletso, SDAP isn't on his radar, nor will it be soon. This tells me that if we think we deserve SDAP as an ESD supervisor, we need to get together as a mess, along with our ELC couterparts and make our voice heard. Until then, we should be happy that we have the job, and not an LT(jg) like they do at some West Coast ESD's.

Emo

[ETC Emiliano Acuna]

Pat,

You may be correct but you might want to remember the sword of Damocles (http://www.livius.org/sh-si/sicily/sicily_t11.html) story.

ET's have been OIC since the days of Loran-A up to 1980 with the brief respite till 1987 with the Loran-C stations. In Nov 1988 every ETC billet on Loran Stations were officially designated to receive the SDAP and authorized to wear the device.

Does the ESD supervisor do everything outlined in CIM 5000.3B pertaining to CO/OINC? If so, then I would agree for you to get the SDAP and the device.

I disagree with the grooming aspect, but I do see where the Senior Chief is coming from. Those serving aboard the Loran Stations are certainly being groomed, at least on mine and others with like minded Chiefs.

I'm sure being board certified is another issue, but when you compare the RFC ratios, you will find both are extremely low considering the population being sampled. There has been about 68 OICs on Loran Stations since 1988 and one RFC to my knowledge. There was a questionable early rotation that I thoght would have been a RFC according to the scuttlebutt. I don't have a clue on the RFCs at the former RADSTA's transmitter sites [another ET OIC billet] nor the ESMT [TT's as OIC].

By the way, there have been 2 LORSTA OIC reliefs in the past 18 months or so. I'm at the station that had the most recent RFC.

Emo

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

Emo,

Nice to have the updated information ... bringing it to three RFCs.

For the Record, the detailer around that time, Dave Alt, made alot of the arguements for the ET OIC, at least that's what his relief told me.

Having people designated OIC/XPO/EPO is done for the "ease" of relieving them. I doubt that was the original intent on the OIC, but it's certainly one comment I mentioned when we pushed for the MK to be designated EPO. I remember telling the OPCON a story about an MK that was very difficult to get out of a station ... which all would have been made alot easier if they were EPO vice station duty. Besides, the MK duty wasn't station duty, but more of the responsibility of the EPO considering the dealings with the commercial contracts and acting as COTR. I made both arguements, their importance and the inevitable removal if necessary. "Loss of confidence" can be a mighty sword, and should be swung rarely. The numbers we hear about are really small when you consider the number of billets that carry command billets.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

I wonder if the ET's will start having to go through a OINC review board process for certification? I think I heard somewhere that BM's started the OINC review board because of a rash of RFC's. Are the ET's heading in the same direction?

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

Deane,

That certainly is a possibility. Without knowing the specifics of the RFCs it would be tough to say it could be solved by a board.

The other thing would be how active the OPCON gets in the selection process. I don't know the history of the two recent RFCs nor do I know how active the OPCON was in those two selections.

The OPCON in my day visited the unit yearly for an operations and training inspection. I don't know if they are still on that schedule. It would be akin to your stan team visits.

Hand picked people can have problems. I've heard a funny story about the "hand picked" crew that first manned Emo's unit, from the CPO that was there in the late 70s. :D

[ETC Emiliano Acuna]

Deane,

That certainly is a possibility. Without knowing the specifics of the RFCs it would be tough to say it could be solved by a board.

The other thing would be how active the OPCON gets in the selection process. I don't know the history of the two recent RFCs nor do I know how active the OPCON was in those two selections.

The OPCON in my day visited the unit yearly for an operations and training inspection. I don't know if they are still on that schedule. It would be akin to your stan team visits.

Hand picked people can have problems. I've heard a funny story about the "hand picked" crew that first manned Emo's unit, from the CPO that was there in the late 70s. :D
There is a merit for the boards. But it would be difficult to tie it directly to LORAN. Because LORAN is a small potion of ET world, the board would in itself keep us shipboard people out of the LORAN world. That would breed the "Master of my Domain" mentality in OIC/XPO's because essentially it is hard to kick them out when the pool of qualified applicants is smaller.
But, there is an arguement to have the board based on a limited amount of LORAN knowledge, and a hefty dose of GMT knowledge. I have had a good run to get my OIC job. Including LPO on a 270, independent duty on the Gentian, ESD Supervisor as an ET1... From what I hear, the OPCON still has an open line of communication w/ the detailer when it comes to incoming OIC's.
Right now we have COCO (OPCON) inspections and LSU "grooms", in addition to MLC compliance inspections and also District Material Inspenspections.

Emo

Joe,
PM me offline about what you know about my station. Apparently, an old detailer, CWO Aubuchon was an OIC at one point.

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

Emo,

Yes there can be a board and I'm sure there are plenty of common topics to bring up. The ETs that serve as OIC are at Loran stations and Communications Stations Remote Transmitter sites.

I'm not sure how specific the BM boards get towards the type certification MM ashore, MM afloat, ATON, etc ... but I'm sure any one of the current or former certifieds would be glad to point out the questions about the specifics of the mission.

Somewhere the specifics probably would get mentioned, as would the specifics at a remote communications transmitter site. I remember when I was asked for a letter outlining some things a new OIC should be looking at during their relief process for the, then, new Loran OIC school, I recall very little Loran stuff associated with that letter. I originally gave the letter to a CPO who was heading for his first OIC position, but a member of the OPCON's staff knew I still had it on file and wanted it via email about 8 or so years ago.

[ETC Joel Szymczyk]

OK, I'm painfully late to this party. End of the year, I'm retiring out of my third OIC assignment. Commanding a LORSTA out on it's own, with next to no crew, is not the same as running an ESD. There are many of the same duties and responsibilities, and there are many different challenges too. I'm not going to write a book here, but would be more than happy to engage in conversation if people are still interested.

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

Joel,

There are enough common items [admin, supply, etc] to have a board. Then you can add the specifics at a seperate board.

When we first started sending Loran OICs, XPOs, and EPOs to the OIC school, yes, they learned about bullets and biscuits. Did it apply? Nope.

In 2000 when KWM told me about the "loran" OIC school, it included the CWOs heading isolated. They got a review of the biscuits ... only the one's heading isolated (I believe). KWM told me that when the BMCS (I think) from the OIC School, commented he knew how the ETs that attended the BM specific OIC courses felt, as he sat in that first convening class.

I certainly could list the common things and when I tried to get them included on the ET rating review back in 94, I was shot down, even though the next couple of years the Radsta transmitter sites were goin to be OIC. It was a taste of the 30% requirement for something to be included on the rating qualifications.

I've always professed there are commonalities and realize the non-commonalities as well. I've had the board discussion quite a few times with a BMCS (at the time) Dave Sweeney. We agreed on alot of the commonalities.

[ETC Pat Kaschube]

OK, I'm painfully late to this party. End of the year, I'm retiring out of my third OIC assignment. Commanding a LORSTA out on it's own, with next to no crew, is not the same as running an ESD. There are many of the same duties and responsibilities, and there are many different challenges too. I'm not going to write a book here, but would be more than happy to engage in conversation if people are still interested.


I'd be interested in your opinion of the difference between the two jobs. I've never done LORAN but I've talked with a couple of folks that have done both of the jobs in question and the opinion seems to be that there are more headaches at an ESD. I can only speak to the ESD world, I'm on my third year at my second ESD, the other ESD was only for 10 months though I was at an ET shop in San Diego when they got rid of the ST rating for a year and a half. That wasn't really the same though.

[ETC Emiliano Acuna]

I'd be interested in your opinion of the difference between the two jobs. I've never done LORAN but I've talked with a couple of folks that have done both of the jobs in question and the opinion seems to be that there are more headaches at an ESD. I can only speak to the ESD world, I'm on my third year at my second ESD, the other ESD was only for 10 months though I was at an ET shop in San Diego when they got rid of the ST rating for a year and a half. That wasn't really the same though.

I have been stationed at 3 ESD's. Super of 1. Here is the difference I have found so far:

1. ESD's have far more resources to pull from. Parts, money, bodies, training, connections, etc...
2. As long as the OIC is "by the book": his word is law, his action is final, and the responsibility is totally his. The super always is responsible to the ESU for policy.
3. The super is the first line in the marking chain, the OIC is the last.
4. The respect given to an OIC is far greater than that of the super.
5. The super has to be able to deal in politics w/ other commands, an OIC not as much.
6. Leadership is paramount to the OIC position, managing is paramount to the super position.
7. Property is more of a headache for the supers as property is exchanged almost daily. The OIC has more in $ and in capitalized.
8. The super has a shit load more ERPAL/MICA than the OIC.
9. The OIC has the ability to interact with his people on a daily basis. The super has to make a really big effort to work with each of his people on a regular basis.
10. As an ET OIC, you have to have the mentality that you are on an island, and while you can call for assistance, you have to get the job done yourself. The ESD super has to get the job done, and if you can't, the next ESD in line can supply assistance. If that doesn't work, there is a pool of money to get a special tech rep in from SPAWAR, C2CEN, TISCOM, etc to fix the problem.
11. The super has far better billet picks than the OIC; at least in my opinion. There are great warrant piks for super, the 3 for OIC's bite!
12. Personnel issues are more likely at an ESD. Personnel issues at a LORSTA have far greater effect on the crew and operations.
13. Personnel problems at remote ESD's are often handled by ESU rather than the unit.
14. OIC's have far more admin overhead than ESD's.
15. ESD supers have an easier go at servicewide. Broader exposure is the key here.
16. OIC's are always recallable, supers "usually" are only recallable in the event of a catastrophe.
17. As an OIC, I derive more pride in my station than I did during my time as a super.
18. As a super, your foot print is very wide, but not as deep. As an OIC, your foot print is narrow, but very deep. Explained: as a super, you come in contact with a lot more ET's. The shops are bigger, the turnover is a constant churn. But you are more a manager, so your daily interaction is less; therefor your affect is less. As the OIC, your interaction with your crew is daily. Your OJT and training lectures is more one on one. When something breaks, you are there fixing it with your crew.

Pat, give me a call any time you want. I am in global. I'd love to trade sea stories, war hero's, shop talk, or mess matters.

Emo

[ETC Joel Szymczyk]

I have been stationed at 3 ESD's. Super of 1. Here is the difference I have found so far:

1. ESD's have far more resources to pull from. Parts, money, bodies, training, connections, etc...
2. As long as the OIC is "by the book": his word is law, his action is final, and the responsibility is totally his. The super always is responsible to the ESU for policy.
3. The super is the first line in the marking chain, the OIC is the last.
4. The respect given to an OIC is far greater than that of the super.
5. The super has to be able to deal in politics w/ other commands, an OIC not as much.
6. Leadership is paramount to the OIC position, managing is paramount to the super position.
7. Property is more of a headache for the supers as property is exchanged almost daily. The OIC has more in $ and in capitalized.
8. The super has a shit load more ERPAL/MICA than the OIC.
9. The OIC has the ability to interact with his people on a daily basis. The super has to make a really big effort to work with each of his people on a regular basis.
10. As an ET OIC, you have to have the mentality that you are on an island, and while you can call for assistance, you have to get the job done yourself. The ESD super has to get the job done, and if you can't, the next ESD in line can supply assistance. If that doesn't work, there is a pool of money to get a special tech rep in from SPAWAR, C2CEN, TISCOM, etc to fix the problem.
11. The super has far better billet picks than the OIC; at least in my opinion. There are great warrant piks for super, the 3 for OIC's bite!
12. Personnel issues are more likely at an ESD. Personnel issues at a LORSTA have far greater effect on the crew and operations.
13. Personnel problems at remote ESD's are often handled by ESU rather than the unit.
14. OIC's have far more admin overhead than ESD's.
15. ESD supers have an easier go at servicewide. Broader exposure is the key here.
16. OIC's are always recallable, supers "usually" are only recallable in the event of a catastrophe.
17. As an OIC, I derive more pride in my station than I did during my time as a super.
18. As a super, your foot print is very wide, but not as deep. As an OIC, your foot print is narrow, but very deep. Explained: as a super, you come in contact with a lot more ET's. The shops are bigger, the turnover is a constant churn. But you are more a manager, so your daily interaction is less; therefor your affect is less. As the OIC, your interaction with your crew is daily. Your OJT and training lectures is more one on one. When something breaks, you are there fixing it with your crew.

Pat, give me a call any time you want. I am in global. I'd love to trade sea stories, war hero's, shop talk, or mess matters.

Emo

well said- however your #5 does not jive with my experiences.

Your #16 is a biggie- When (not IF) the sh** hits the fan, the OIC better be available to respond, unless the OIC is TAD somewhere. It's a 24/7/365 commitment- big difference from other jobs. Liberty is defined as "making sure you're not more than an hour from the station."

Leading and managing a 4-person crew with 24/7 responsibilities is more difficult in many ways than leading 9, 10, or 15 people. Any time ANYTHING happens with one of the crew (medical, family medical, school, TAD, leave, younameit) that is 25% of your crew OOC. There is no wiggle room available at all.

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

I agree with Joel.

Your #5 is incorrect. Politics is politics whether your dealing with other commands or other entities.

What is the ESD's Public Relations responsibilities? I know I've travelled as far as 90+ miles from the unit to give briefings on "What the hell the CG is doing way out here in the dust bowl?".

My unit was on NBC in Oklahoma City, as their film crew was in the neighborhood and tracked us down while filming another story. OKC was 350 mile SE of the unit. My unit was featured in an Aviation Magazine. The two local papers (one in NM and one in OK) had feature articles. I've done radio interviews (NM) ... setup by my OPS, I guess he didn't think I was doing enough.

Matter of fact, one ET2 from the installation team made the front page of the local paper. One day I asked where "the ET2" was, his PO1 said he was looking for something. I said, "yeah, a photographer ... so he can get on the front page again. " :D

We received recruiting paraphernalia compliments of a nearby recruiter ... with nearby being a relative term.

Joel is incorrect on the width of the OIC's footprint. I'm sure there have been many that have asked and received Joel's opinion. His sphere of influence is much wider than the four at his unit.

[ETC Pat Kaschube]

I have no LORAN experience. I never intended my question to be a LORAN vrs ESD battle, just an educational exercise. So with that being said, one individual I spoke with said that LSU WIldwood gave them all the support they ever needed, admin or otherwise, yes the signature is on the OINC but they do have a support system in place. This seems to me to be like an ESU for an ESD.
I have no grandiose fantasies of ESD supervisors ever being considered as OINC's but from everyone I've ever met (in person) that has done both they say the LORAN OINC job is much easier. They do qualify this statemtn with, "if we have good people", then again who doesn't. And at least LORAN folks never have to deal with AIRSTA's, :D

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

LSU WIldwood gave them all the support they ever needed, admin or otherwise,

If that OinC thought they got admin support from LSU ... wow, things have changed.

ADCON's were the districts or groups (sectors). OPCON was the Area's ... now NAVCEN. LSU provided some technical support. Baltimore (ELC Repair) provides some support, CEU's provide some support, ESUs provide some support, MLCs provide some support.

Ask that OinC who signed their evaluations. I doubt it was LSU. ADCONs sign the evaluations.

No it's not an ESD -v- Lorsta thing. Believe me, I've advocated one OPCON and ADCON for the Loran program for many years. I've also advocated that LSU take over the Loran tower support program from the CEUs ... and placing LSU under the OPCON. Then they would have a stake in the mission, not as an ancillary or collateral duty. Too many little empires with draw bridges to breech to accomplish things.

[MKC Craig Thorngren (Ret)]

... And at least LORAN folks never have to deal with AIRSTA's..., :D

Tell that to the folks at Attu, Pt. Clarence or St. Paul... We received great service so long as it was nice and sunny with little to no winds:eek: Seriously though, we did get great service from the folks at AirSta Kodiak. It may have been a little frustrating at times but all in all it wasn't as bad as flying Jet Blue...

Craig

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

Craig,

For a few days in 1983, there were two C-130s on deck at Attu International, and a third one flew in to bring the equipment required to get them back to fly, I remember the first one had radar problems.

The 5 ton was use to jumpstart one of the C-130s.

There was a fourth C-130 on the island, but that one required a contractor to extract it.

[ETC Emiliano Acuna]

I agree with Joel.

Your #5 is incorrect. Politics is politics whether your dealing with other commands or other entities.

What is the ESD's Public Relations responsibilities? I know I've travelled as far as 90+ miles from the unit to give briefings on "What the hell the CG is doing way out here in the dust bowl?".

My unit was on NBC in Oklahoma City, as their film crew was in the neighborhood and tracked us down while filming another story. OKC was 350 mile SE of the unit. My unit was featured in an Aviation Magazine. The two local papers (one in NM and one in OK) had feature articles. I've done radio interviews (NM) ... setup by my OPS, I guess he didn't think I was doing enough.

Matter of fact, one ET2 from the installation team made the front page of the local paper. One day I asked where "the ET2" was, his PO1 said he was looking for something. I said, "yeah, a photographer ... so he can get on the front page again. " :D

We received recruiting paraphernalia compliments of a nearby recruiter ... with nearby being a relative term.

Joel is incorrect on the width of the OIC's footprint. I'm sure there have been many that have asked and received Joel's opinion. His sphere of influence is much wider than the four at his unit.

Joe, I totally disagree with your idea that an ESD Super and an OIC deal in the same amount of politics. As an OIC, you really only have to deal with ADCON, OPCON, LSU, MLC, and CEU. As an ESD Super you have ESU, ADCON, C2CEN, TISCOM, SPAWAR, MLC, sometimes NAVCEN, every command you service, and what ever command is that you are co-located at. There is far more going on for the ESD Super now than for the OIC.

Emo

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

Emiliano,

As an OIC, you really only have to deal with ADCON, OPCON, LSU, MLC, and CEU.

I've dealt with HQ, ESU, and District (when Group was ADCON). Granted I had no NAVY entities to deal with, well, other than that letter I wrote to the 8th Naval District Admiral's representative who asked about the resources at my disposal they could use in case of an emergency.

Dealing with people is the same whether you deal with one or deal with a thousand.

There is far more going on for the ESD Super now than for the OIC.

Are you doing the things outlined in CIM 5000 as they pertain to CO/OinC or are you talking a numerical quantity? Is there an engineering plant and engineers under the ESU Super?

If so, I'm sure the ESU would support your idea for the device for the CPOs. Write the letter addressing the issue.

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

The brunt of the work to get the ETC's OinC of Loran Stations was done by the detailer, CWO Dave Alt, back in the mid 80s. Nov 1st, 1988 is when the CG once again, recognized the ETC as OinC. I say once again, because ETC's were OinC of Loran-A stations in the 60s and 70s. Dave may have used the historical reference as I believe he did serve on a Loran-A station or two when he was younger.

I was responsible for Lorsta Nantucket for one year and 9 months before the Nov 1988 message.