CCTI - new question

[SKCM Linda Reid]

Anyone else have this situation? -

An E-7 who makes CWO before having a chance to be initiated ... maybe assigned to a ship and just couldn't make the dates of the area CCTI ... yet who REALLY, REALLY wants to go through CCTI.

This has come up a couple times in the 5 years I've been doing this. I'm kind of torn ... nice to include someone who is so enthusiastic, and who will presumably be a supporter of the Chiefs Mess, but then you have to ask why? ... that person is not going to be part of the mess, wearing anchors, attending meetings, etc., but will be taking up time in the CCTI process. We already have 16 people on the list for this cycle.

Any other area dealt with this or have a policy?

[ETCS David Kroll]

Hello Linda,
Here we just had our first CCTI in many, many years, nobody could ever remember this area having one. We have just gotten the Chief's mess organized so we had a few people who have been wanting to go thru CCTI but just not had the chance. We did allow a CWO to go thru with the CCTI and afterwards he said it was a great experience. It sounds like a similar situation. He didn't have a chance and now he is a big supporter of the mess. Here, our mess is so small, we have included the CWO's to be part of it as long as they know they are chief's in that setting and not command cadre. I'm not sure if there is any true guidance on this, I guess my thoughts are if he/she truely wants to, go for it.

As an appendix, it should cost him/her dearly to be a turncoat. He/she must be a democrat, flip-floping between CPO and CWO! :D

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

Let him do it.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

He should go through.

He should also understand that he will not receive any "special" treatment because he's a CWO. It's all or nothing.

[SKCM Linda Reid]

MCPO Tatu suggested throwing it out at the chiefs call and getting feedback from the Mess. At least then there would be some buy-in, whatever is decided.

Actually, in this case, it's a "she"!

[BMCS Nick Pupo]

As posted above, let her go thru.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Master Chief,

When we did my CCTI in DC (Oct 02), there was a CWO, never initiated that was trying to be a Sea Lawyer, as I recall, he was handled in an appropriate manner :D

I vote absolutely let her in!

[BMC Kerry Wagoner]

Even though she has now made CWO, she was once a E-7 who wanted, and I presume, planned to go through the CCTI. We have, in our CPOA, former Chief's who are now CWO's and even in a few cases LT's. Both are a valued addition to the CPOA and are deeply involved in the CCTI process. All have gone through the CCTI themselves. Once a Chief........Always a Chief.

[BMC Ken Gouge]

Let her go through,
One thing to consider is the different point of view added to that particular Chiefs Mess by someone with unfettered access to the dark side. Especially those who further lobotomize themselves by pinning on bars.

[FSC LANCE HOLVOET]

Absolutely, talk about a role model for those who are on the fence or won't go through!

[OSC Donald McClain]

Hey Master Chief - looks like the majority is in favor of this. Was there ever a decision made during yesterdays meeting?

Don

[SKCM Linda Reid]

I wasn't tallying comments on paper but it seemed to me all those who spoke except for one or two were enthusiastically in favor. And not to throw it out to all CWO's, but for someone who takes the initiative to step forward and who really wants to be part of the process, as it this case.

She now has her package and will be #16 for the fall cycle.

[BMC Al Cusson]

Hello Master Chief
What we have done once here in Miami for people in that situation is that we held a two week CCTI for those who were attached to cutters and unable to attend as a result of their u/w schedule. It seems tough to accomplish all of the tasks, but they were able to do it. It did go before the Chiefs to determine if we thought it would be appropriate and the overall consensis was that it was, otherwise how could they do it other that taking leave or waiting for a drydock period and even if thay did, how many Chiefs could be afforded to be let go during a drydock period?

[ITC Jon Rigsby]

two cases come to mind immediately:

1.) an FT1 who was advanced to E-7 Prior to finishing OCS (something about a temporary commission - I don't remember all the details). After graduation, as an ENSIGN, he attended the first CCTI that he could find (transfers and all that)... Very gung-ho individual.

2.) TC1 who was advanced to TCC while he was in ACET (college). Returned to regular duties as an E-7 and was selected to CWO before he'd even been at his new unit 6 months. Never did go through the CCTI; kinda "unintentionally" blew it off as he was making CWO...

Both individuals are highly respected members of their units and the Coast Guard; both are people I consider personal friends.

The attitude and desire to participate is the big difference...although I have to admit that in neither case did the individual's decision impact their work performance or careers in either a positive or negative way.

I do, however, find it strange that there would be a question of "letting" an uninitiated E-7 into a CCTI...whether she/he wears anchors or bars on his/her shoulders. I've always considered the Mess to be Chiefs - including CWO's, Commissioned Officers or retirees - Once a Chief; Always a Chief...and that goes for the uninitiated as well...

(I guess the comment about "letting" CWOs into the mess irked me - they "almost" all already belong. There are the few CWOs who when from 1st to CWO...but we aren't talking about them, are we?)

Jon

[BMCS Jerry Greer]

Fines should be commensurate with pay, in other words- Big Fines! Let her in. Should be a fun CCTI.

[MKCS William Moore]

I am looking for a "SEA LAWYER Cert or License" form. Any body have one???

:D

[SKC Eric S. Highland]

I also say let her go through.. and have her make sure everyone who posted on this thread gets an invite... ~wrings hands together~

Same topic, slight twist..

I vaguely remember hearing about a CWO who was on the list for Chief (above the cut) but never pinned on the anchors prior to taking Warrant who wanted to go through.

In that case I say.. "off with his head".. ~clears throat~ I mean. NO WAY. You either pin them on and are advanced to E-7 or you have NO part in the CCTI.

Thoughts?

v/r

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

You either are a Chief or you are not. I know people who went through the CCTI even though they never advanced to Chief. I wouldn't do it in my Mess. I like the people who went through it and all, and understand why they wanted to go through it, but I wouldn't have allowed it. Everyone makes their own decisions with their career, and they should be willing to live by them. If you ascended to Warrant before pinning on the anchors, congratualtions,........ but you were never a Chief.

[AMTC Kevin Langlois]

Am I missing something? Didn't this particular situation (CWO who never got a chance to initiate) occur two years ago? :confused:

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

The original case is old, but the situation keeps coming back up.

[BMC John Phillips III]

but you were never a Chief.

Master Chief, you of all people should know this, but in the Army, they call CWO's Chief. I realize it doesn't have the same meaning or carry over to the CG, but it is Chief Warrant Officer. I don't see the harm. I certainly don't think that any CWO (prior Chief or not) would ever cheapen or bring down the tradition of the CCTI. In fact I find it kind of flattering that someone who outranks me wants to be like me.

That's just my humble opinion though.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

But the Mess is for Chief Petty Officers. The senior enlisted people in the Service. They are Chief Warrant Officers, but the emphasis in on Officer, unless they were Chiefs, and then only inside the Mess. Inside the Mess, it's Once a Chief always a Chief, but you had to be a Chief at least once in order for that to apply.
Two quick problems with your theory...... It's the Chief Petty Officer's Mess, Chief's Mess for short. And in the Army as well as the other branches of the services, you can apply to become a Warrant Officer once you are an E-5 ........ but that's a discussion for another thread.

edited to add..... it took me about three years of being in the CG to stop calling every CWO that I meet Chief. But they were the ones that always corrected me.

[MKCM Brett Ayer]

I'm going to drop my opinions in here just to add food for thought. I hope this is not to off topic.

We have two issues at play here; who attends the CCTI, and who is welcome in the Mess.

1st issue: the CCTI, I believe that anyone who was ever initiated as a Chief should be welcome at the CCTI. I believe anyone who was ever advanced to E-7 should be given the opportunity to be initiated. If they made a poor decision in the past and never went through it, and they want to go through it now as a CWO2, LT, or the President of the United States, its fine with me. “Once a Chief always a Chief”. applies to the CCTI.

2nd issue: Access to the Chiefs mess. There is an old saying that one man cannot serve two masters. This is so very true. The Chief's Mess is for Chief's. We need a place where we can interact with each other without worry of either the crew or the wardroom getting involved. A former Chief, now assigned to the Wardroom has a moral and professional obligation to the Wardroom, to allow them into the Mess puts them in a conflicting situation that is not fair to them or the current Chiefs. When the XO comes up to the CWO and says “I hear there is a problem between Chief A and Chief B” His obligation is to the XO and either the rule of “What is said in the Mess stays in the Mess” goes out the window, or he is forced to lie to the XO. Or he can say sorry it’s a chief’s thing in which case the XO questions his dedication to the Wardroom.

Our obligation as leaders is to do everything we can to ensure the success of the organization; this includes ensuring that everyone is positioned for success in their current assignment. In my mind this means keeping CWOs and DCOs in the wardroom.

Former Chief's should be welcome to all picnics, parties, and community service events, but when it comes to daily access to the mess, its knock then enter.

Sorry for being so long winded, ok I’m not :)

Brett

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

And Brett I disagree with you. They may have to serve two masters but that's on them. It the XO directs a question about what went on behind closed doors....shame on him/her. And the Warrant doesn't have to lie, they could direct the XO to Chief A and Chief B and have them answer the question that the XO should have directed to them first. The XO shouldn't need a mediator.

I think your solution is asking everything of people who now wear something else on their collar, and giving them nothing in return. We want them there for fund raising, and activities , but we don't for other things. Once a Chief, always a Chief has to mean always. You either always look at them like a Chief, again inside the Mess, or you don't. In my Mess they will always be welcomed. They don't need to knock, they are given the combination. In my Mess, they will always be Chiefs. In my Mess we have no Senior Chiefs, Master Chiefs, Warrants or Officers, just us Chiefs. And as Chiefs you have an obligation to the Mess. If you can't uphold that obligation, don't bother knocking .......... Because you aren't a Chief. ....you are an E-7, E-8, E-9, CWO2...whatever......but you aren't a Chief.

[MKCM Brett Ayer]

And Brett I disagree with you.

That is the great thing about forums like this, we can all put our ideas on the table and still get along.

Brett

[BMCS Burt Ford]

JP3 if someone has never been an E7, they should not be allowed in the mess or the CCTI. I believe this is core issue here. I have seen people who outrank me go through CCTI and you will too but the ones I watch were Chiefs at one time.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

There is an old saying that one man cannot serve two masters. This is so very true. The Chief's Mess is for Chief's. We need a place where we can interact with each other without worry of either the crew or the wardroom getting involved. A former Chief, now assigned to the Wardroom has a moral and professional obligation to the Wardroom, to allow them into the Mess puts them in a conflicting situation that is not fair to them or the current Chiefs. When the XO comes up to the CWO and says “I hear there is a problem between Chief A and Chief B” His obligation is to the XO and either the rule of “What is said in the Mess stays in the Mess” goes out the window, or he is forced to lie to the XO. Or he can say sorry it’s a chief’s thing in which case the XO questions his dedication to the Wardroom.

Brett...I have a quick question for you. Who is the CSC/CMC responsible to? Don't they kind of serve two masters? Isn't the CSC/CMC responsible to the command and the mess? How do they reconcile those differences? How do they treat the XO when asked about Chief "A" & "B"?

[MKCM Brett Ayer]

Brett...I have a quick question for you. Who is the CSC/CMC responsible to? Don't they kind of serve two masters? Isn't the CSC/CMC responsible to the command and the mess? How do they reconcile those differences? How do they treat the XO when asked about Chief "A" & "B"?

Good question, my thoughts

The relationship between the CMC and the Command, and an Officer and the Command is not the same. The dynamics are not the same, and they should not be the same. Both the Wardroom and the Chief's Mess have separate and distinct functions within the unit.

When a Chief is advanced to Officer they are evaluated on different criteria, and the command has a different set of expectations. Most commands I have worked for understand the function of the Chiefs Mess and respect the boundaries. It is true that some commands do not, and these commands more often have issues within the Mess also, and we the Chiefs have to take a big share of the blame when that happens.

As for the XO question, I would expect the XO to be candid with the CMC and let the CMC do his job. I would be disappointed in any command that failed to respect the boundaries of the Chiefs Mess at their unit. I would also be disappointed in any Command that did not expect a former Chief (now Officer) to be a fully functioning member of the wardroom.

Bottom line is the Chiefs Mess is first and foremost a work space. Not a social club. The distinction between Chief and Officer is significant and necessary, and the boundaries were developed for a reason. If we (the Chiefs) expect a former Chief to act like a Chief, and the Command expects them to act like an Officer, someone is getting set up for failure.

Having said all that, I think if we are going to keep this subject going we need to start a new topic, and either let this one get back on track of die off.

Brett

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Master Chief -- This issue will never truly die, until we have a clearly defined position/definition regarding CWOs/CWO-LTs and their role/function in the the Mess this issue will not ever die.

I keep hearing people throw various catch phrases around, and while all are appropriate, which one is THE motto of the Mess?

"Ask the Chief"
"Once a Chief, Always a Chief"
"In respect for those who came before us"

Am I missing any here? All of these are good, all of them have value, and meaning, but wouldn't this argument be easier, if we as a collective CG Mess had a motto or set of Core Values that were universally agreed upon, used and accepted so we didn't have this type of discussion?

[BMC Ken Gouge]

I suggest you all check your e-mail, The MCPOCG has answered your question.

edited to add:
If haven't seen it, talk to your Gold/Silver Badge and make sure you are on his mailing list.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Thanks Ken,

I saw it posted in the locked section. I made this post before checking there.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Anyone else have this situation? -

An E-7 who makes CWO before having a chance to be initiated ... maybe assigned to a ship and just couldn't make the dates of the area CCTI ...
Any other area dealt with this or have a policy?

I got initiated with an ENS at the Chief's club in Balto. Had a great time.... MCPO Jim Bridges was my judge...

In my opinion if this guy made CWO before he attended a CCTI, the mess was not doing their job having a timely CCTI...

Wray... :cool: