Diversity Trivia

[MKCM Brett Ayer]

A bit of trivia for everyone.

In 2004, we adopted a new diversity tracking system. We now have the ability to track 594 separate demographic groups.

That is 33 race combinations, 3 ethnic, 2 gender, and 3 workforces (Officer, Enlisted, and CWO).

When we started this new system, we had less than 100 separate groups represented. We now have 223 groups represented.

So the answer to the question "Are we getting more diverse in the Coast Guard” is Yes.

Be Safe,

Brett

[MKC Craig Thorngren (Ret)]

Brett,
You say I have too much time on my hands... :D

Craig

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Brett, I say you have too much work on your hands...... I'm glad you're back, I was beginning to think that we lost you, so keep the facts coming. At what pay grade do we start seeing those hige gaps again ? I'd guess E-7 for the enlisted and O-5 for the Officers.

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

WOW, 33 race combinations? And I always thought I was just being funny when I put Northern European Hybrid on those forms.

[MKCM Brett Ayer]

Brett,
You say I have too much time on my hands... :D

Craig

Craig,

The scary thing is they are paying me to do this stuff, who would a thunk :)

Stuart,

Not lost, the end/start of the FY is a busy time.

Be Safe,

Brett

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Brett, at which paygrades do we start seeing the biggest decreases in diversity ?

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

Just for curiosity sake, what are the 33 race combinations? I can only think of about 1/2 dozen that I have seen on forms. And now are we tracking ethnicity? I understand Gender just fine. There is plenty of debate on another thread about how many though.
My ancestors hail from Germany, Denmark, Scotland and England. I was born and raised on the West coast of the U.S. Maybe I need to just break down and buy Bill O'Reilly's book to determine what I am.

[MSTCS Jerald P. Motyka]

Master Chief Ayer (howdy!),
Isn't that a misnomer, though? If the old choices were "White" and "Non-White", we had what, about 20% that were "Non-White"

Now, we have 33 choices - if you go by the choices, we have a butt-load of choices other than "White" (I think there are about four choices for "White"). So the PERCENTAGE of CHOICES has gone way up, but where is the raw number that says how many "Non-White" folks we have?

Just guessing, I would think that we have right around the same 20% that we used to. Am I wrong?

By the way, Federalist 10 was kick arse!! I liked it so much, I'm going through and reading all of the editions I can find! :D

[MKCM Brett Ayer]

Master Chief Ayer (howdy!),
Isn't that a misnomer, though? If the old choices were "White" and "Non-White", we had what, about 20% that were "Non-White"

Now, we have 33 choices - if you go by the choices, we have a butt-load of choices other than "White" (I think there are about four choices for "White"). So the PERCENTAGE of CHOICES has gone way up, but where is the raw number that says how many "Non-White" folks we have?

Just guessing, I would think that we have right around the same 20% that we used to. Am I wrong?

By the way, Federalist 10 was kick arse!! I liked it so much, I'm going through and reading all of the editions I can find! :D

Jerald,

You are right, we still have about the same number of minorities and woman (a few more of each), so if your definition of diversity is % whites vs. % of minorities, we have not changed much. However, if diversity means more people of different backgrounds, then we are doing better.

For example, if we had 10 Green Coasties and 5 Blue Coasties our minority percentage would be 33% , but if we had 10 Green Coasties, 2 Blue Coasties and 3 purple Coasties, our minority percentage would be 33%, but we would be more diverse. We have gone from less than 100 groups represented to more than 200.

Having said all that, much of it is self correction of data from years of being forced to fit into one of the old 5 groups. However, for new accessions diversity has increased.

By the way glad you like fed 10, people have not changed much, have they?

Be Safe,

Brett

[MKCM Brett Ayer]

Just for curiosity sake, what are the 33 race combinations? I can only think of about 1/2 dozen that I have seen on forms. And now are we tracking ethnicity? I understand Gender just fine. There is plenty of debate on another thread about how many though.
My ancestors hail from Germany, Denmark, Scotland and England. I was born and raised on the West coast of the U.S. Maybe I need to just break down and buy Bill O'Reilly's book to determine what I am.

Jim,

Without posting a list, they are combinations of the half dozen you are thinking about. For example, you can now be a White/Asian/Native Alaskan.

The only ethnicity we are currently tracking is Hispanic. So the 3 choices are; Hispanic, Not Hispanic, or Declined to respond. Under the old system, Hispanics was considered a race. This put non-white Hispanics in a position of picking one or the other.

Be Safe,

Brett

[MKCM Brett Ayer]

Brett, at which paygrades do we start seeing the biggest decreases in diversity ?

Stuart,

It’s pretty linear, no sharp drop at any pay-grade. E-2 is about 34% and E-9 is about 8.4%. The same is true for Officers.

If anyone wants to see the report, do a search on CG Central for "Demographic Report". I post the summary every month.

Be Safe,

Brett

[SKC Raymond Kurtz]

Okay, silly question time.

Please explain what difference this makes? I thought we were all supposed to be color blind, that race/gender/ethnicity should not matter. Wouldn’t it be easier to just label all of us as just one ethnicity? Put me down for American.

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

Raymond, what do you think would happen to the Coast Guard over time if these statistics were not tracked and certain demographics were not targeted for our recruiting efforts in order to maintain a diverse workforce? We have lots of different sub-cultures in our great country and I have been fortunate enough to have been stationed in enough diverse places that I, and my family, have been able to experience these first hand. I think that it is important to maintain a diverse workforce both racially and culturally, to help keep units assimilated in their areas. I spent 2 years on a PB in Puerto Rico, and all we had were white men on the ship, we would have been much less effective. Besides, it is a good personal experience to associate with people with different backgrounds, cultures, races... It will evolve our understanding of one another so that one day, we call all be "Americans" as you say.

[MKC Art Bailly (ret)]

So, both of my boys were born in and lived in Alaska all their lives doesn’t that make them Native Alaskans?

[MKCM Brett Ayer]

So, both of my boys were born in and lived in Alaska all their lives doesn’t that make them Native Alaskans?


Art,

The best part of this new system is it is a "self select" process. You just sign on to Direct Access and pick the one you want. We have 2 people that have selected everything.

Things that make you say Hmmmm.

Brett

[SKC Raymond Kurtz]

Raymond, what do you think would happen to the Coast Guard over time if these statistics were not tracked and certain demographics were not targeted for our recruiting efforts in order to maintain a diverse workforce? We have lots of different sub-cultures in our great country and I have been fortunate enough to have been stationed in enough diverse places that I, and my family, have been able to experience these first hand. I think that it is important to maintain a diverse workforce both racially and culturally, to help keep units assimilated in their areas. I spent 2 years on a PB in Puerto Rico, and all we had were white men on the ship, we would have been much less effective. Besides, it is a good personal experience to associate with people with different backgrounds, cultures, races... It will evolve our understanding of one another so that one day, we call all be "Americans" as you say.

Good point and I do agree with it. I realize to survive as a service we need to reach out to all races and cultures. But as you say "It will evolve our understanding of one another so that one day, we call all be "Americans"." Sorry but I don't believe that we will ever see that, not with the PC atmosphere the way it is. For too many years I have observed people calling themselves "German/English/Italian/Spanish/Danish/Swedish/Dutch/French/African/Mexican/Canadian/Etc - Americans. I have no problem with that label if they were born in Germany/England/Italy/Spain/Denmak/Sweden/Holland/France/Africa/Mexico/Canada/Etc.

However if you were born here. If your parents were born here. If your parents parents were born here, you are an AMERICAN!

Celebrating diversity is one thing, dishonoring your native land by constantly harping about how wonderful it is to be of German/English/Italian/Spanish/Danish/Swedish/Dutch/French/African/Mexican/Canadian/Etc descent quite another.

My ancestors came from Germany and Holland. My grandmother was supposedly a full blooded American Indian or Native American. I would rather be referred to as an American rather than – American. Unlike some of our citizens, I do not have one foot planted in the US and other in Europe.

Done ranting.

[MKC Craig Thorngren (Ret)]

"There can be no 50/50 Americanism's if we are to survive. Your either American or not." I'm not positive but I believe it was Teddy Roosevelt who first stated this...

Celebrating diversity is one thing, dishonoring your native land by constantly harping about how wonderful it is to be of German/English/Italian/Spanish/Danish/Swedish/Dutch/French/African/Mexican/Canadian/Etc descent quite another.

Ray, very well said.

Craig

[MKCM Brett Ayer]

"There can be no 50/50 Americanism's if we are to survive. Your either American or not." I'm not positive but I believe it was Teddy Roosevelt who first stated this...

Celebrating diversity is one thing, dishonoring your native land by constantly harping about how wonderful it is to be of German/English/Italian/Spanish/Danish/Swedish/Dutch/French/African/Mexican/Canadian/Etc descent quite another.

Ray, very well said.

Craig

I don't know if he said that, but he did say: "There are good men and bad men of all nationalities, creeds and colors; and if this world of ours is ever to become what we hope some day it may become, it must be by the general recognition that the man's heart and soul, the man's worth and actions, determine his standing." Theodore Roosevelt, 1903.

Now get back to work Craig :)

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

How about this... I was born in California but I will never say I am a Californian. I converted to Washingtonian in 1978. While I hail from European ancestry, I am proud to be a U.S. Citizen. Technically, one could be from any of numerous countries on two continents and call themselves an "American".
Personally, I could care less about a persons ancestry. I would like to have people in this country that are proud to be here and appreciate what our system has to offer. So long as they contribute to our society, and obey our laws. For those that don't like it, they should go somewhere else that better suits them. There seems to be no shortage of folks that want to come here, work hard and do appreciate our system.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

All kinds of Americans claim to be something else....inside our borders. As soon as they go anywhere else, everyone reminds them that they are Americans.
Jim, funny thing about being down here in Puerto Rico, everyone refers to me as an American,......... and I get to ask them, and what are you ?
I do get a kick out of the fact that you're not claiming California.

Brett, I was given a diversity breakdown from a recruiter and it was showing the biggest differences with women starting at the E-7 with 6.3% and ending at E-9 with 4.2%. And Warrants overall only had 5.5% women. Overall we only have about 12% of the workforce is made up of women. Doesn't that put us at the bottom of the other services ?

[BMC John Phillips III]

Considering all that's been said, here is my two cents: I am a little bit of everything and don't mind or care what anyone else is. However, as far as being an American goes, I think there is one thing that every American should have in common - speaking english. Bi-lingual is great and I might take up a second language eventually, but I get tired of having to press 1 for english*

* perhaps I should be happy I don't have to press 2 or 3 :confused:

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

But the country wasn't "discovered" by people who spoke english. It wasn't settled by people who only spoke english. It wasn't revolutionized by people who only spoke english. It hasn't been governed by people who only spoke english*. And it hasn't been defended by people who only spoke english. So if your major complaint is that you have to push an extra number when you go thru the drive thru teller ............. this country has gotten a lot lazier than I thought.
And go to some major cities. Sometimes you have as many as seven choices to pick from. It wasn't legistation that put those choices there. It was the banks themself. You see, bankers know that money talks.
And before you get too hooked on english only...... talk to someone from England. They're not that happy with what we did with their language, and I think they want it back.

As a matter of fact, we once had a president whose first language wasn't english...........

[SKC Raymond Kurtz]

if your major complaint is that you have to push an extra number when you go thru the drive thru teller ............. this country has gotten a lot lazier than I thought.

Amen with a but.

What is the big deal with learning the english language? If you come here to live it would naturally follow that you would need to learn the language to thrive. Why should we Americans have to adjust just so people that are lazy will not have to learn our language?

One more thing and this goes back to the very beginning of the thread. Are we setting up recruiting offices in foreign countries now? That is the only reason I can see to be interested in the diversity (make up) of our service. Does it really matter that my ancestors came from another country? How does this help us to do our job better?

[BMCM Deane Smith]

I received a forwarded email today that contained the following. I have no idea if it's factual, but seems to (kind of) fit the discussion...


Theodore Roosevelt's ideas on Immigrants and being an AMERICAN in 1907.

"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the p erson's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907

[MKCM Brett Ayer]

One more thing and this goes back to the very beginning of the thread. Are we setting up recruiting offices in foreign countries now? That is the only reason I can see to be interested in the diversity (make up) of our service. Does it really matter that my ancestors came from another country? How does this help us to do our job better?

Well I can give my 2 cents. If you’re a recruiter, don't take this the wrong way, I only have the most respect for you guys.

In general we have more than enough white males interested in joining the Coast Guard. A recruiter does not have to put in a lot of energy to grab the low hanging fruit so to speak. From personal experience, I can say with all my efforts (I’m not a recruiter), I have never been able to get a Female to join the Coast Guard, I have brought many males onboard in my time.

We have a responsibility to the American Public to make sure all our citizens have an opportunity to serve. Accept it or not, there are barriers in this country, some cultural, some manmade, that make it more difficult to recruit and retain minorities and woman. The only way to make sure these barriers are not affecting our recruiting and management practices it to track the numbers. It’s just another gauge on the board that helps us make better decisions.

Be Safe,

Brett

[PACS Steve Carleton]

I had a recent conversation with my local RinC and for this next recruiting year they have lowered the Active Duty numbers and are focusing on the Reserve numbers, but they are working to fill specific gaps in the RPAL as noted by Force Optimization and Training (FOT).

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Ray, I wouldn't associate not learning English with being lazy. I had two Grandparents that lived their entire adult life in Pa., raised thirteen kids, and worked everyday of their lives. My father spoke two languages before he started school and neither one was English.

Creating a diverse work force allows some of members to experience different cultures and cross sections of our own country on a daily basis. That in itself could make them better equipped to interact with the diverse nation we serve, daily.

Here's my language joke that someone once told me as we were doing a boarding on their boat.
What do you call someone who speaks two languages ? Bilingual
What do you call someone who speaks three or more languages ? Multi-lingual
What do you call someone who only speaks one language ? An American.

In my travels in the Coast Guard I've seen alot of stuff. St Martin is a tiny island that is owned by both the French and the Dutch. The kids that go to school on the Dutch side are required to learn Dutch, English, Spanish, and French. Would you care to guess the one language the kids on the French side are required to learn ?

[SKC Raymond Kurtz]

Ray, I wouldn't associate not learning English with being lazy. I had two Grandparents that lived their entire adult life in Pa., raised thirteen kids, and worked everyday of their lives. My father spoke two languages before he started school and neither one was English.

Creating a diverse work force allows some of members to experience different cultures and cross sections of our own country on a daily basis. That in itself could make them better equipped to interact with the diverse nation we serve, daily.

Here's my language joke that someone once told me as we were doing a boarding on their boat.
What do you call someone who speaks two languages ? Bilingual
What do you call someone who speaks three or more languages ? Multi-lingual
What do you call someone who only speaks one language ? An American.

In my travels in the Coast Guard I've seen alot of stuff. St Martin is a tiny island that is owned by both the French and the Dutch. The kids that go to school on the Dutch side are required to learn Dutch, English, Spanish, and French. Would you care to guess the one language the kids on the French side are required to learn ?

That was a different time, I am talking about the people that come here, get welfare and expect US to bend over backward to understand them. Your grandparents made a difference.

The heck with it. You got me (sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.) Let's all just sit around the campfire signing peace hymns. And remince about how it was in (fill in the name of the country of your choice.) Even though we never lived there.

Raymond "100% unhyphenated American" Kurtz"

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I'm not a campfire kinda guy ........... but I am a betting man. I'll bet you there are more second, third , or fourth generation Americans in this country on welfare, than there are first generation. It takes a couple of years of sitting in front of a television before most people want everything handed to them.
And Ray....... I've traveled abroad.......... I still get a kick out of Americans on vacation that are appaulled because people in other countries don't speak English. I've heard on more than one occassion, "If they want to take my money, they should learn my language." Also, Somewhere in our country, they teach people that if someone doesn't speak your language, it helps if you talk louder.

[BMC John Phillips III]

.......It wasn't settled by people who only spoke english. It wasn't revolutionized by people who only spoke english. It hasn't been governed by people who only spoke english*. And it hasn't been defended by people who only spoke english. So if your major complaint is that you have to push an extra number when you go thru the drive thru teller ............. this country has gotten a lot lazier than I thought. .................
And before you get too hooked on english only...... talk to someone from England. They're not that happy with what we did with their language, and I think they want it back..

Master Chief, if you look at my post again, you will see that I never used the term "only English" I just said it bothered me that I had to always select English....which is not the same thing.

As far as England and how they feel about our language, well we have "Americanized it, but I could go to England, an Englishman could come here and we could communicate freely, but really using England and english as a comparative tool in your argument is weak at best.

And of course people that live here and are unwilling to learn to speak the language could not possibly be lazy. you base your stance soley on the individuals that you know - or supported your stance. (ala BMCS E and partially quoting manuals) I am looking at it in broader terms I guess.

I cannot determine if the Teddy Roosevelt post is authentic or not but I like it. It may be a little extremis, but if you are going to be extremis anything it might as well be American.

Lastly, in your joke (which I totally find the humor in)
"What do you call someone who only speaks one language ? An American."
I think that Americans can afford to only speak one language, we are the best country in the world and for the most part are self sufficient (minus oil - see your theory of we have the food) and second languages for American citizens (although a nice bonus) should be optional.

edited to
I still get a kick out of Americans on vacation that are appaulled because people in other countries don't speak English. I've heard on more than one occassion, "If they want to take my money, they should learn my language." Also, Somewhere in our country, they teach people that if someone doesn't speak your language, it helps if you talk louder.

Perhaps they think that way because everywhere they go in America there are bilingual options and we are so accomadating. Also, the speaking louder thing is funny cause there are people that do that on cell phones and when talking to deaf people (lip readers).

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Here's the lyrics to a classic...go ahead and sing along in whatever language you prefer!

Great American Melting Pot - Schoolhouse Rock

My grandmother came from Russia
A satchel on her knee,
My grandfather had his father's cap
He brought from Italy.
They'd heard about a country
Where life might let them win,
They paid the fare to America
And there they melted in.

Lovely Lady Liberty
With her book of recipes
And the finest one she's got
Is the great American melting pot.
The great American melting pot.

America was founded by the English,
But also by the Germans, Dutch, and French.
The principle still sticks;
Our heritage is mixed.
So any kid could be the president.

You simply melt right in,
It doesn't matter what your skin.
It doesn't matter where you're from,
Or your religion, you jump right in
To the great American melting pot.
The great American melting pot.
Ooh, what a stew, red, white, and blue.

America was the New World
And Europe was the Old.
America was the land of hope,
Or so the legend told.
On steamboats by the millions,
In search of honest pay,
Those 19th-century immigrants sailed
To reach the U.S.A.

Lovely Lady Liberty
With her book of recipes
And the finest one she's got
Is the great American melting pot
The great Anerican melting pot.
What good ingredients,
Liberty and immigrants.

They brought the country's customs,
Their language and their ways.
They filled the factories, tilled the soil,
Helped build the U.S.A.
Go on and ask your grandma,
Hear what she has to tell
How great to be an American
And something else as well.

Lovely Lady Liberty
With her book of recipes
And the finest one she's got
Is the great American melting pot
The great American melting pot.

The great American melting pot.
The great American melting pot.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

There are some practical considerations to the "Everybody should learn English" debate.

First, it is very difficult to pick up an additional language after a certain age. Those that do should be applauded, those that don't shouldn't be penalized.

Second, most of today's immigrants are learning English the fastest but most difficult way possible-- total immersion. Those language options you see at the drive thru and hear on the telephone are primarily designed to give those folks a hand with day-to-day living while they are learning English.

And finally, JP3, in regards to "(ala BMCS E and partially quoting manuals)"...bite me. My quotes aren't what ticks you off--it's my being right.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Dennis, don't end a post like that, it's hard for me to laugh and type at the same time.

JP3, the only place in America that you should have to speak English or have someone to interpret for you is if you're conducting federal business. English is the official language in our country, but as a free country, how can you claim that people should be required to learn a language. You should also get ready for the changes that this country is going through. Some public elementary schools are requiring kids to learn a second language. The people that go with America is the greatest nation, and everyone should speak English, might want to read a little history. England used to have the policy, make the world England, and you see where that got them. Spanish is the fastest growing language on the planet, spoken in more countries than any other. But the time our country gets around to requiring everyone to speak one language, it might be easier to go with Spanish. So if you can find the time after pushing all those ones at the AMT, you might want to jump on board before you prove Dennis right again, and get too old to Habla.

And I only yell on the cellphone because I am hearing impaired, and I hope that gets the person on the other end to yell also, so I can hear what they said..........

[BMC John Phillips III]

And finally, JP3, in regards to "(ala BMCS E and partially quoting manuals)"...bite me. My quotes aren't what ticks you off--it's my being right.

That is funny! Thanks for cutting to the chase and telling me exactly how you really feel! That's a quality I admire. Although I still don't agree with you thinking you're right, but I have been accused of the same thing - always wanting to be right.

BMCM, as I stated before, and this is an original quote, "The most accurate thing about history is that it happened in the past." There are many crucial errors in your argument:
1. your "either or" synopsis of England wanting to take over the world. You are saying that since it didn't work for England it won't work for us. Which is totally not even close to what I think we should require of our citizens. I think English should be the primary language of our land, not any other.
2. Free country (faulty analogy)- we do live in a free country, one that expects it's citizens to read and write and become productive members of society. How many languages should we print our text books in?
Of course you are free to learn/speak any language that you want, but should be expected to know one. Legislation is written to become a citizen, which requires immigrants seeking citizenship to demonstrate a "sufficient understanding of the English language for usage in every day life." But to date, English is not our official language.

On my side of the argument I would say that the most successful non-English speaking Americans are sports professionals. Sports being one profession where accomplishment or success is perceived through physical abilities and does not require verbal or vocal communications skills. Fortunately most of these high-payed athletes are provided with interpretters for interviews; unfortunately, your average non-English speaking citizen is not afforded the same opportunity to communicate with the rest of the country.

If I were visiting a foreign country (or even a non-English speaking territory of the U.S.) I would not expect anyone to be able to speak English, but I would be grateful for the people that I met that did. Additionally, I would brush up on my espanol so that I didn't do or say something estúpido.

Have you ever looked at the citizen or even visa requirements for working in Mexico?

BMCS Smith, I think it's funny that you quoted the School House rock song (very entertaining) even funnier (and I am quite sure you cut and paste so don't take it personal) is the fact they mispelled American (Anerican).

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

John, do you have a hard time following yourself ?
I was simply trying to say that history has a way of repeating itself.
We should only print English text books in English. But I would probably print the French, Spanish, and Latin ones in at least two...... English being the other one. The other text books ? That would depend on what schools were using them. And kids that are home schooled can use which ever language their parents want.
You can back pedal all you want unicycle man, your comment that sparked this whole conversation was that all Americans should have to speak English.
But the way, English is the Official Language recognized by our federal government. If you appear in a Federal Court and you don't speak English, you have to bring your own interpreter.
Where are you getting that our country expects its citizens to read and write, or become productive members of society ?
And if I were grading your English paper I'd underlineThere are many crucial errors in your argument: Since when is 2 considered many? And I don't think you know what the word crucial means.
I get the requirement for immigrants, but what about the people born here? My wife has always been a U.S. Citizen. As a matter of fact, so is everyone else I know from Puerto Rico. But don't look to Puerto Rico, go back to New York City. There are 73 different languages recognized by the tourist counsel as being spoken everyday in NYC. You have fourth and fifth generations of Americans still speaking only their native language. Let's look to PA and pick on the Amish. Maybe they should get with the times ? Do you want them to speak English too ?
John, I wouldn't worry about your poor spanish skills making look stupid, you more than make up for that in your native tongue.
Food for thought.....the way you picked out the flaw in Deane's post........ you may have missed your calling as a sniper.

[BMCS Ian McVicker]

Thanks Dennis, that was funny! I laughed so hard I spit water all over my keyboard.

[BMC John Phillips III]

if I were grading your English paper I'd underlineThere are many crucial errors in your argument: Since when is 2 considered many? And I don't think you know what the word crucial means.
John, I wouldn't worry about your poor spanish skills making look stupid, you more than make up for that in your native tongue.
Food for thought.....the way you picked out the flaw in Deane's post........ you may have missed your calling as a sniper.

If I am unicycle man you are "ATV 4x4 all terrain vehicle man," because you are all over the road. I will try to get you back on track.

Many - more than 2 (of course, but respectfully, I chose the biggest two) I could have easily pointed to other mistakes such as me selecting English at the AMT, but chose not to. Much like my pointing out of the typo in BMCS Smith's post, I was responding to what was said, not who said it. Even when I try to explain it, I am still accused of sniping (which is attacking the messenger and not the message - none of that going on in your posts directed towards me).

The School House Rock song was clearly cut and paste - I did not expect BMCS to edit it or review for errors, I expect "School" house rock to. If having school in the title and mispelled words wasn't bad enough, the word had to be "American!" In my eyes, that's almost as bad as being an American and not wanting to learn to speak English (which is not to be confused with not knowing how to) Perhaps I should have made my view (or stance) on that matter a little more clear in my original post. (consider that back tracking if you want, I stand by calling it elaborating.)

Regardless, I thank you for responding to my post and providing me with the argument portion of my "argument and persuasion" essay that I will be writing this week. It is on being an American citizen and speaking English, I will update you next week as to the grade I receive.

Edited to add, I wonder if the part you and BMCS McVicker found was funny was the part where he told me to "bite" him or if it was the part where he thought he was right! Either way at least the 3 of us got a chuckle out of it!

[CWO Tony Marinelli (QMCS)]

Hey, Master Chief who collects data on ethnic diversity and turns it into statistics, I'd like to get back to the original issue at hand. Why, in your professional opinion, is it the current conventional wisdom that the combined ideas and opinions of people of different cultures and ethnicities makes for better decision-making processes for the common good? Isn't it just so all groups can feel they are a part of a process (or, are not disenfranchised).

It has been my experience, as an American of Italian descent who grew up in an Italian neighborhood in the northeast (where ethnocentricity ran as high as the corn didn't); then moved to the suburbs and was melted in a pot with people of Portuguese, Irish, English, Scottish, African and Azorian descent (if I left out any groups, I apologize); then joined the Coast Guard and did some travellin', whence I met Southerners (even married one), Left-coasters, Mid-westerners, Alaskans and adopted Asians, among countless others. In all that, I've learned one thing: people of common ancestry, ethnicity and geographic location don't think or act alike, nor do they have common needs. I've found that two members of the same family can have more divergent opinions than might two strangers from opposite ends of the earth. The leadership of this country is so bi-polar, it's almost funny. They discourage stereotyping and pigeon-holing for some things, then create partitions between people for other things.

So, what's the point of all this ethnic accounting? I believe it's only a feeble attempt to prove the political correctness and ethnic sensitivity of the Coast Guard, as mandated by the US Government. But I bet there are some northern "Italian-Americans" who would disagree with me, as well as some southern "African-Americans" who would agree with me, and all types in between, including just plain ol', English speaking American types.

I'll understand if you give me your "official" professional opinion, but would rather hear your personal proffesional opinion - trusting that what's said in the mess, stays in the mess.

Thanks,

Tony

[MKCM Brett Ayer]

Hey, Master Chief who collects data on ethnic diversity and turns it into statistics, I'd like to get back to the original issue at hand. Why, in your professional opinion, is it the current conventional wisdom that the combined ideas and opinions of people of different cultures and ethnicities makes for better decision-making processes for the common good? Isn't it just so all groups can feel they are a part of a process (or, are not disenfranchised).

Tony

How about an example. In the "old days” the D9 180s would take turns with winter deployments to GANTSEC. One year it was the Mariposa's turn, so off they went to Puerto Rico. Everyone expected an event free, highly productive deployment. For the most part it was, but they did have one problem. It seems that no one asked someone from Puerto Rico what "Mariposa" meant in common Spanish (Google it or ask someone from Puerto Rico). For some reason this caused some issues with the crew as they walked around on liberty in San Juan wearing the ships ball cap :)

Be Safe.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Don't bother googling it, it means butterfly. In slang down here it has the same meaning as calling someone a duck. It would be like someone from England asking you if you wanted to smoke a fag.
The guys wearing those hats were probably wondering why they were getting some strange looks.

[BMC John Phillips III]

http://www.rimjournal.com/arizyson/wldflowr/pinkreds/mariposa.htm

apparently in Mexico it doesn't mean duck...

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

John, reading is fundamental....... it doesn't mean duck anywhere......it means butterfly. Pato is spanish for duck. Now comes the tricky part...... if you hear someone calling someone else a Pato or Mariposa, they're calling them the same thing........ but they don't mean you're a butterfly or a duck...... it's slang.

[CWO Tony Marinelli (QMCS)]

Wow!. Talk about going off on a tangent. Anyone who knows 180's, or buoy tenders in general (Buttonwood, White Pine, Red Beech) knows they were named for bushes and trees. 225's still are. And I'm not even Puerto Rican.

Any better explanations out there?

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Tony, that was the point Brett was making. Everyone who knows 180's knows Mariposa was named like all the other 180's. But in spanish Mariposa means something else. In spanish slang.....something else altogether.
Diversifying the workforce exposes us to these cultural differences. The more diverse we become, the more opportunities to learn.
As for why we measure diversity......... we measure everything. If we measure our diversity we can compare areas where we still see alot of racial, sexual, or cultural conflict, and compare it to the diversity we have in that area. We can help to identify problem areas within our organization. We can look for ways to improve ourselves and increase our retention. We lose quality people because they may not see possibilities for advancement for the people they compare themselves too. Measuring our diversity might give us insight into why we see the trends that we do.

[MKCM Brett Ayer]

Stuart is correct that was my point.

The question was: why does diversity mater?

It matters because we deal with people from all backgrounds and cultures, and we as an organization can serve our customers better if we have a better understanding of other cultures.

Things that have no reason to turn into conflict, sometimes do because of cultural misunderstandings. This is not just an "American verses others" issue. We have the same problems within our own culture (North, South, East, West). By having a workforce that is culturally diverse, we can better serve the American people.

As for why we measure diversity?

I'm an engineer, I measure everything :) You can’t ask me to manage an engine room with out a gauge panel; I need to know what’s going on inside the engines. So why would we try to manage a workforce with out the same tools?

Measurements are just information, its what we do with the information that matters.

Should we change standards for the sake of diversity? NO.
Should we discriminate against the majority for the sake of diversity? NO.
Should we identify barriers and try to remove them for the sake of diversity? YES.
Should we learn from others with different backgrounds and cultures? YES.

Question: Should we capture or kill Bin Laden?

American answer: “YES”
Arabic answer: “Which one”

In Arabic “bin” means “Son of” and Laden had many sons. The guys name is Osama.

Be Safe,

Brett

[MSTCS Jerald P. Motyka]

Master Chief, the problem that I see is that, in addition to the Cummins engines and the Caterpillar generators, we should add a 50 hp outboard and three nine-volts and a power plant... all in the "name" of diversity.

Do we NEED them? No, not in this engine room.
Are they useful? Yes, just not in this application.

My idea of diversity is gathering a herd of engineers to discuss a new power plant for a 378, and adding in a Storekeeper. It adds a fiscal idea to what they want to do, and keeps the engineers thinking about what they do because they have to continually keep describing the machinery, specs and capabilities.

I personally don't give a rat's behind about whether a person has an X or Y chromosome, or has a tan or not.

Can they do the job they are required to do?

THAT is the only criteria I use to "judge" a person's worthiness. Taking it just a step further, if they are capable of EXCEEDING job requirements, THEN they can start earning my respect as an ACHIEVER.
If an MK3 can do their job, I respect them. If they can do it and SMILE the whole time, then I LIKE them. Gender and race don't enter into the discussion for me.

I have a friend I served with for a couple years at a co-located unit. It wasn't for TWO years that I finally realized that she was Black, and wouldn't have thought about it until she made a comment. It was VERY chilly, and she said, "I'm about to turn into a fudgecicle." I grew up hearing/saying "popcicle", and it was that second that I realized that she was black... and there is no mistaking her look... she is VERY dark skinned and has stereotypical facial features. I had just never thought about what race she might have been. She could do her job (was a TT before the merger) and she did it with a smile, so we got along wonderfully.

But, I guess out of a sense of diversity, we should have people in the service who complain constantly and can't do their jobs. Don't wanna leave THOSE people out!! :mad:

[MKCM Brett Ayer]

Can they do the job they are required to do?

THAT is the only criteria I use to "judge" a person's worthiness. Taking it just a step further, if they are capable of EXCEEDING job requirements, THEN they can start earning my respect as an ACHIEVER.
If an MK3 can do their job, I respect them. If they can do it and SMILE the whole time, then I LIKE them. Gender and race don't enter into the discussion for me.
:mad:

Jerald, you are correct in the above statement, no argument here. But (and there is always a but) that was not the discussion. The discussion was about why diversity in the workforce is a good thing and why we track it. Not about how we judge people in the Coast Guard. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing that matters once your in the blue suit is how you do your job.

All I'm saying is, all other things being equal, we are a better organization if we are diverse.

If we want to keep the engineering analogy alive, it’s not about what type of engines we have; it’s about what kind of tools we have in the tool box.

If I go to my tool box and only have metric tools, it will be a little difficult to work on a CAT, if I only have SAE tools it will make it hard to work on an MTU. Can I get the job done in either case? Yes, can I do it better if I have a better set of tools? Yes. Do I treat all my tools that same? Yes.

I don’t speak Spanish, can I do boardings in Mona Pass? Yes, can I be more effective if I have someone with me that speaks Spanish? Yes.

Are we better off if we are diverse? Yes.

That’s all I’m saying.

Be Safe,

Brett

[SKC Raymond Kurtz]

I have a friend I served with for a couple years at a co-located unit. It wasn't for TWO years that I finally realized that she was Black, and wouldn't have thought about it until she made a comment. It was VERY chilly, and she said, "I'm about to turn into a fudgecicle." I grew up hearing/saying "popcicle", and it was that second that I realized that she was black... and there is no mistaking her look... she is VERY dark skinned and has stereotypical facial features. I had just never thought about what race she might have been. She could do her job (was a TT before the merger) and she did it with a smile, so we got along wonderfully.

Wow! That's funny, she must have been a peach to work with!

Wanna hear a good one? Some of the people I got along the best with had nothing in common with me except that we truly enjoyed each other's company. So I guess it could be said that we celebrated our diversity.

[BMC John Phillips III]

Regardless, I thank you for responding to my post and providing me with the argument portion of my "argument and persuasion" essay that I will be writing this week. It is on being an American citizen and speaking English, I will update you next week as to the grade I receive.

BMCM, as promised, I said I would share with you the grade I received on my "Argument and Persuasion" essay. The attachment is my essay with the teachers comments and grade added in red at the bottom. The essay was worth a maximum of 125 pts.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

John...How were you able to type this and add an attachment with only one hand?

[SKC Raymond Kurtz]

Wow!. Talk about going off on a tangent. Anyone who knows 180's, or buoy tenders in general (Buttonwood, White Pine, Red Beech) knows they were named for bushes and trees. 225's still are. And I'm not even Puerto Rican.

Any better explanations out there?

There is one exception. Can you name it?

[MSTCS Jerald P. Motyka]

Would that have been the Bramble (Port Huron, Michigan)? Brambles are brush/uncut shrubbery, so it isn't officially a "Tree". Just a guess. :D

[PACS Steve Carleton]

USCGC SPAR -- The Spar, commissioned in 1944, was homeported in Boston and assigned to the First Naval District during World War II. In 1946, she transferred to Woods Hole until 1951. From 1951 until 1976 she was stationed at Bristol, RI. After undergoing a "major renovation" (see Sassafras gallery above for details) at the Coast Guard Yard in 1976, she was stationed at South Portland, ME. She carried out ATON, SAR and icebreaking duties throughout her long career as well as sailing in a historic voyage in which Spar, along with Storis and Bramble, circumnavigated the North American continent via the Panama Canal and the Northwest Passage in 1957.

She was decommissioned in 1997.

The "NEW" Spar is currently based in Kodiak, Alaska and named for the Coast Guard Women's Reserve in WWII.

[ETC Pat Kaschube]

Still loved the signs in Kodiak when the Firebush was right next to the Ironwood. That always killed me. Sounded like a good liberty port.

[SKC Raymond Kurtz]

USCGC SPAR -- The Spar, commissioned in 1944, was homeported in Boston and assigned to the First Naval District during World War II. In 1946, she transferred to Woods Hole until 1951. From 1951 until 1976 she was stationed at Bristol, RI. After undergoing a "major renovation" (see Sassafras gallery above for details) at the Coast Guard Yard in 1976, she was stationed at South Portland, ME. She carried out ATON, SAR and icebreaking duties throughout her long career as well as sailing in a historic voyage in which Spar, along with Storis and Bramble, circumnavigated the North American continent via the Panama Canal and the Northwest Passage in 1957.

She was decommissioned in 1997.

The "NEW" Spar is currently based in Kodiak, Alaska and named for the Coast Guard Women's Reserve in WWII.

Ding ding ding!!! Give that man a chocolate chip cookie!

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Thanks Ray,

My head is full of worthless(?) trivial information that seems to come in handy once in awhile.

[ETC Emiliano Acuna]

I am going to be pretty blunt here. The reason we have Diversity Tracking Tools in the Coast Guard is because the majority of the people who make policy and decisions on the future of the Coast Guard are white males. So, if you ask them if the Coast Guard is diverse, you'll get a different answer than in you ask the Latino MK3 at a rural small boat station.

- At HQ the "O" type will see a Black Chief, a Latino Warrant, an Asian Line Officer, and knows of the Alaskan Reservist. So in his eye's, the Coast Guard is diverse.
- At the Deck Plate level, that Latino MK3 at the rural small boat station see's a female non-rate, a female SK2, a Black FS1, and an EM2 whould could be American Indian or maybe Asian but has the last name of Smith. Ask him if the Coast Guard is diverse. Out of 50 people, there are 3 people of color and 2 women.

In my eyes, if you need tools to track "if" the Coast Guard is diverse, then it simply isnt. If you have to ask a spreadsheet if the person down the hall is Chinese or Korean instead of asking the person directly, then the Coast Guard isn't diverse. I am all for tools that measure performance, but if the only measure of performance you have is that on tool, then your basing policy and direction with blinders on.

As far as recruiting diversity, you have to exemplify diversity in the Recruiting Offices around the Country. Each office has it's own demographics. If you dont attempt to match those demographics, then you will not meet "diversity" goals.

Emo

[BMCM Deane Smith]

I am going to be pretty blunt here. The reason we have Diversity Tracking Tools in the Coast Guard is because the majority of the people who make policy and decisions on the future of the Coast Guard are white males. So, if you ask them if the Coast Guard is diverse, you'll get a different answer than in you ask the Latino MK3 at a rural small boat station.

Emo...what would you consider a diverse workforce? How do you think the CG stacks up against society? How do we change the Latino MK3's answer?

[BMC Ken Gouge]

Diversity is a great and wonderful thing. If it has to be measured and controlled it isn't worth a damn. I want people in the Coast Guard who want to be here. I want everyone to have the opportunity to enlist. I do NOT want to overlook the white male who wants to be here, because we have enough white males. If there is a Chinese female that wants to be here then that is who we should enlist.

If we put quotas on the recruiting offices, they may spend too much time trying to recruit a specific sex or race and not enough trying to recruit the best qualified. There are the right people and wrong people of EVERY race for the Coast Guard.

[MKC Wayne Cox]

Diversity is to the work place what global warming is to science....... empirically unproovable junk. There is 0 proof that recruiting certain ethnicities helps anything or anyone in schools, jobs, anywhere. We shouldn't track anyone's race or ethnicity, period. What I want is the best qualified, motivated individual I can get no matter their sex, racial background or ethnic make up. Diversity is liberal tripe, pure and simple. It is motivated by politics and politicians and serves no real purpose other than to not offend one group or another or to get into the good graces of this group or that. Garbage. Just my two cents.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

Diversity polices and practices are not about inclusion. They are about exclusion. As a matter of social policy, we have throughout our history excluded specific groups of our citizenry from many aspects of business, government, and yes, the military. Does that matter?

As a nation, we have said that it does. We have also said that because of our past policies of exclusion, the playing field where we all compete for jobs and positions has been tilted to benefit white anglo-saxon protestant males. Even if you ignore the tilted playing field, you can't deny that business/government/military is made up of predominately WASP males. That is not because the WASPs are inherently better. It's because they have been cheating.

So, now that social policy has been put in place, we need to track our success in leveling the playing field. Hence, the diversity tracking tools.

Wayne- Of course diversity policies are motivated by politics and politicians! Of course those politicians are courting specific groups! We refer to those groups as "unrepresented voters." Politicians are elected and paid to court them. If you don't like what your politicians are doing, ELECT SOMEONE ELSE.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

And I could show Latino MK3 that we're getting more diverse with time, because of the measurement tools that we're using. You could compare those numbers with the ones form five, ten, or twenty years ago. Are we as diverse as society ? That depends on where you're stationed. Are we getting better ? I'd say the numbers say yes.
But recruiting certain people isn't as big an issue as retaining them. Without understanding why we have retention problems in certain fields, we'll never be able to change that outcome.

[ETC Emiliano Acuna]

Deane,
Emo...what would you consider a diverse workforce?
I would aim for the same diversity as the American Public. I would keep the ethnic choices simple: African American, Asian, Caucasion, Hispanic, Middle Eastern, Native American/Inuit, and Other. If the Coast Guard could be within +/- %20 for each group, to me that would be a victory.
But honestly, the numbers in diversity are deceiving. The numbers should also be measured for each pay grade. There is a possibility that I am way off base, but I think the Coast Guard misses the mark in diversity as you climb the Enlisted and Officer ranks.
How do you think the CG stacks up against society? I have no idea.
How do we change the Latino MK3's answer?I have 2 ideas for this. First and foremost, retention of minorities needs to be addressed. Second, minorities need to recruit minorities. Sending a young white recruiter into the inner city of any major city isnt going to give you great results. Lets face it, you have to cater your recruiting style to each area.

I honestly think the Coast Guard is the best of all services in regards to equal treatment of all its Civilian and military employees. And I would venture to say that minorities in the Coast Guard feel better about themselves and the way they are treated in comparison to the other services.

Emo

[ETC Emiliano Acuna]

And I could show Latino MK3 that we're getting more diverse with time, because of the measurement tools that we're using. You could compare those numbers with the ones form five, ten, or twenty years ago. Are we as diverse as society ? That depends on where you're stationed. Are we getting better ? I'd say the numbers say yes.
But recruiting certain people isn't as big an issue as retaining them. Without understanding why we have retention problems in certain fields, we'll never be able to change that outcome.
I wouldn't attribute the diversity of the Coast Guard to a set of tools. But I would say that showing us in the "minority" brackets that the Coast Guard is getting more diverse really doesnt mean much to us. Show us how we positively affect the Guard and that we are on an equal playing field as everyone else. Now that is something tangible worth reenlisting for. Just my 2 cents.

Emo

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Show us how we positively affect the Guard and that we are on an equal playing field as everyone else. Now that is something tangible worth reenlisting for. Just my 2 cents.

Emo...Are you saying that we aren't doing this? If that's what you're saying, how are we not doing this? I'm somewhat confused about the "Equal Playing Field" comment. Please clarify.

[BMC Ken Gouge]

Compared to the other services, our advancement system is the most fair. It is based on your knowledge of the Coast Guard and of your rating.

The only thing subjective is the marks. As convoluted as they can be from unit to unit (some marking honestly and some handing 7's out like they are on sale) I think that within each unit they are probably fair to members of each race, ethnicity or sex.

That being said, how does anyone plan to alter our job or the services we provide the public to make it more attractive to a person of a specific ethnicity? I think the alterations that have been made to billet structure for females afloat was good (even though it cost me a few years of SWE sea time). I can't in my own little world think of anything substantial to make the Coast Guard more ethnically pleasing for one group or another.

[SKC Raymond Kurtz]

Emo

Your nickname reminds me of a couple of my cousins. The first cousin with a last name of Emo, was arrested for arson. It seems he liked to torch barns and then watch the volunteer firemen show up to put it out. What's really weird is that Cousin Emo was a volunteer fireman himself. I had another cousing, also with the last name of Emo, that like to roll back the speedometers on cars.

[ETC Emiliano Acuna]

Emo...Are you saying that we aren't doing this? If that's what you're saying, how are we not doing this? I'm somewhat confused about the "Equal Playing Field" comment. Please clarify.

I am not saying that the playing field isn't equal. Well, it is generally equal. What I am saying is that in my expierience and travels, white males get public "attaboys" and awards at a higher rate than minorities. This is especially true at smaller outlying units. The only "fix" I have for this is mandatory sensitivity trainining of CO's, OINC's, Supervisors, Gold and Silver badges. A simple correspondence course delivered via the intranet.

Now you know as well as I do that a simple 45 minute training isn't going to turn someone who is racist or has racist tendencies. But it would be a good starting point. Just my 2 cents.

[ETC Emiliano Acuna]

Compared to the other services, our advancement system is the most fair. It is based on your knowledge of the Coast Guard and of your rating.

The only thing subjective is the marks. As convoluted as they can be from unit to unit (some marking honestly and some handing 7's out like they are on sale) I think that within each unit they are probably fair to members of each race, ethnicity or sex.

That being said, how does anyone plan to alter our job or the services we provide the public to make it more attractive to a person of a specific ethnicity? I think the alterations that have been made to billet structure for females afloat was good (even though it cost me a few years of SWE sea time). I can't in my own little world think of anything substantial to make the Coast Guard more ethnically pleasing for one group or another.

You don't alter the service to make it more attractive. You put high performing minorities in recruiting stations where you want to attract a specific group. When young people meet a person like them who is a role model of excellence, it is natural to want to follow.

Honestly, the advancement system doe need to be reworked. Far too much importance is placed on marks, which is the most subjective part of advancement. Once marks are not weighted as high, perhaps the marking chain wont abuse it as much.

I am not for wholesale change. But if a couple small tweeks makes it a better system for all, why not at least look at the merits and open the table for discussion.

[ETC Emiliano Acuna]

Your nickname reminds me of a couple of my cousins. The first cousin with a last name of Emo, was arrested for arson. It seems he liked to torch barns and then watch the volunteer firemen show up to put it out. What's really weird is that Cousin Emo was a volunteer fireman himself. I had another cousing, also with the last name of Emo, that like to roll back the speedometers on cars.
Are you saying this because of my namesake, or because I have their attributes?

[BMCM Deane Smith]

I am not saying that the playing field isn't equal. Well, it is generally equal. What I am saying is that in my expierience and travels, white males get public "attaboys" and awards at a higher rate than minorities. This is especially true at smaller outlying units. The only "fix" I have for this is mandatory sensitivity trainining of CO's, OINC's, Supervisors, Gold and Silver badges. A simple correspondence course delivered via the intranet.

Now you know as well as I do that a simple 45 minute training isn't going to turn someone who is racist or has racist tendencies. But it would be a good starting point. Just my 2 cents.

Emo...that's interesting. I guess I've not been at these outlying units that you're referencing because I (and the units I've been at) have always praised/reprimanded on an equal opportunity basis. I've been assigned to NYC and a very small community in Oklahoma...both ends of the spectrum and all points between. Maybe I'm just not seeing it, but I have a hard time believing that minorities get less recognition/awards than white males.

[CMC Bruce Bradley]

Emo, I'm with Deane on this one since I guess I haven't been at any of "those units" either in my career. It has been my perception that those members who perform well are given higher marks and may be submitted for awards in addition. Those that perform at a lower level are marked and awarded based on their performance.

You started saying that we as a service might not be doing all that we can to ensure a racially equal and happy playing field. So far in the job assignment arena, marks and now awards. Sorry but that doesn't sound like a few little tweaks to me. So why not go ahead and get it all out on the table since I'm wondering where the soapbox is hidden.

[SKC Raymond Kurtz]

Are you saying this because of my namesake, or because I have their attributes?

Oh noooooooo!! Just thought I'd mention it, it has nothing to do with you :)

[BMC Ken Gouge]

I agree wholly that more white males get more awards. There are more white males in the Coast Guard than any other ethnicity or sex.

I beleive that recruiting positions are available to all, if it is placed on a e-resume with a favorable endorsement.

Show me factual data that our system is biased in any way and I will change my opinion. Until then, I cannot see your posts as anything but your opinion. By factual data I don't mean an instance you know of where a person was discriminatory. Our system is not, and if people are then they need to be dealt with.

I beleive that the entire diversity tracking thing is designed to keep someone busy and appease politicians. I don't beleive there is anything that can be tracked effectively except recruiting and retention. Of those 2, I beleive recruiting is the only thing that can be made better but I'm not sure how. If anything is done to benefit a particular ethnicity that can affect retention, it will be descriminatory to another ethnicity.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Emo, you can't put highly motivated minorities into recruiting billets unless they ask for them. And I wouldn't jump the gun with white males not being able to do the job unless you can show where they aren't meeting their numbers for their office.
I was fortunately enough to spend 33 days recently with two highly motivated recruiters who happened to be a minorities and were able to give me a lot of insight into some of these issues.
That breakdown of minorities by pay grade can be viewed on CGCentral.

.....and I'll join with the other two BM/OinCs and say that I haven't seen one of those units either. I mark people based on their merit. I recognize people based on their merit. I hold people accountable, based on their deeds. We have a level playing field. We have the systems in place to ensure it stays level. If people aren't seeing it as level,...... they need to get someone in there to level it back out. We have the tools to do that, people just need to ask for them.

[ETC Emiliano Acuna]

Emo, you can't put highly motivated minorities into recruiting billets unless they ask for them. And I wouldn't jump the gun with white males not being able to do the job unless you can show where they aren't meeting their numbers for their office.
I was fortunately enough to spend 33 days recently with two highly motivated recruiters who happened to be a minorities and were able to give me a lot of insight into some of these issues.
The Coast Guard has been selecting and directing since the begining of sail. And I don't believe the process we have in place to become a recruiter is a fair one. It tailors to the land crabs at large units. For those underway or at busy SAR stations, jumping through the hoops isnt the best thing for the CG. I know because I tried to go into recruiting. It was easier for me to get an independent duty billet and a ESD Supervisor billet.

That breakdown of minorities by pay grade can be viewed on CGCentral.
I didn't know this. I'll check it out, should be educational.

.....and I'll join with the other two BM/OinCs and say that I haven't seen one of those units either. I mark people based on their merit. I recognize people based on their merit. I hold people accountable, based on their deeds. We have a level playing field. We have the systems in place to ensure it stays level. If people aren't seeing it as level,...... they need to get someone in there to level it back out. We have the tools to do that, people just need to ask for them.

The field isn't level until you begin to look at things through other peoples eyes and hear things with their ears. The minimum is to treat everyone based on their own merits. But when you are confined to the desk for the greater part of the day, it is harder to see the dynamic between people. There you have to trust that your XPO and LPO have those ideals.
There has been many people who have said the marking system isn't fair. That it needs to be looked at. That the advancement process is too weighted on the "subjective" rating system and the SWE. I know for a fact that the SWE isn't fair to a lot of Latino's. Because English isn't always their best language. Not an attempt to allow a English/Spanish dictionary. The Coast Guard will use their bilingual talents, but then restrict them during testing time.
Like I said, until you walk another persons walk, or are specifically taught about ethnic sensitivity, it really is easy to see that our system "is an equal playing field."
I think the Coast Guard does an adequate job in ethnic diversity. But their are strides to make to actually lead in this area. Just my 2 cents.

Emo

[ETC Emiliano Acuna]

Show me factual data that our system is biased in any way and I will change my opinion. Until then, I cannot see your posts as anything but your opinion. By factual data I don't mean an instance you know of where a person was discriminatory. Our system is not, and if people are then they need to be dealt with.

I beleive that the entire diversity tracking thing is designed to keep someone busy and appease politicians. I don't beleive there is anything that can be tracked effectively except recruiting and retention. Of those 2, I beleive recruiting is the only thing that can be made better but I'm not sure how. If anything is done to benefit a particular ethnicity that can affect retention, it will be descriminatory to another ethnicity.
To have factual data, the Coast Guard would have to actually dig for it in award points. But the public "atta boys" can't be measured. And one wouldn't actually think to measure or look at this unless they knew to look for them.

I never once said what I have said is the overall attitude of the Coast Guard. But I have been to enough different units in my travels to know that there is face value to a lot of the "equal playing field". I didn't mean to make this a sosp box. Nor am I just trying to rant. I am offering a different point of view that many here might not get exposed to.

I think that exposure to diversity training would be a start. Like I said, I am not for wholsale changes, but race is still an issue that comes with diversity.

Emo

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

Emo, I gotta tell you that I don't see what you are seeing either. Of course I am looking at them through blue eyes. I sponsored an SA from Puerto Rico a number of years ago. English was his second language. He was an EM1 prior to going to OCS. In fact, I can tell you my experience of 13 years ago. I was a BM2 with an associates degree that wanted to go to OCS. Back then the policy was an E-5 with 4 years active duty and two years of college was eligible. I was told by a recruiter not to bother applying because I was a "TWD" (Typical White Dude). Within a few months, a hispanic non-rate that was completing his 4 years and was preparing to get out, was offered an opportunity to go to OCS by the local Captain. Whether or not it was an offer to go, or an offer to support him in an effort to go, I don't know, but none the less, it rubbed me wrong. I am still here and happy that I didn't go. (I think) You see, there is two sides to every coin. I think that the Coast Guard makes every effort to be color blind. I think that we generally do a great job at it as well. I would like to hear your suggestions, beyond training which we already have lots of, to correct what you see as a problem. Do you think that the SWE should be printed in multiple languages so the individuals can choose? Recruiters need to be released from rate, so that would be up to the detailers and they are going to look at things like certifications and experience. Maybe you had some critical certifications and experience that were needed in your rate. I doubt you were discriminated against. I do agree that minority recruiters would probably have better luck recruiting minorities. I also don't personally care if I get sent a minority, female, athiest, martian, as long as the individual is willing to learn their job and do it well.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

That was an interesting comment Emo made about the SWE. He's probably right that those who speak English as a second language are going to have more difficulty with the exam than those that speak English as a primary language. It's not just about vocabulary, either. Cultural content plays a role.

IQ tests had (or have) the same problem. I'd be interested to know if SWE's have been reviewed for cultural bias.

[CMC Bruce Bradley]

Why should we stop with just having the SWE exam in mutiple languages? Let's add all the Manuals and Instructions and any tech manuals we purchase. And also allow members to write logs in the language of their choice or preference. And naturally allow them to speak whatever language at any time no matter what the work situation or evolution, including all A and C school classes and the instructors.

No wait, we are all the Military of the United States of America and English just happens to be the official language. Sorry Emo but I think you climbed just a bit too high up on that box to grind an ax.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Emo, I don't think that you're giving latinos the credit they deserve. Look at those SWE results again. The people on the bottoms of those lists aren't all minorities. For every latino that you show me who has a hard time reading the questions, I'll show you one who beat out alot of people who only speak english. Better reading and writing skills can be learned. Those that don't choose to improve theirs, will be left behind, regardless of your race.
The ASVAB tests that everyone takes prior to enlisting are in English. They show that the member has a base understanding of the language.
The SWE is in english, as are the study materials, tech pubs, and manuals. I go to minorities to have those manuals explained to me all the time.
The Bi in Bilingual stands for two. If you're bilingual, you have to have an understanding of both languages.
I've never seen the Coast Guard that you're talking about, but you should see mine sometime. I wrote an award for one of the people that works for me the other day. Then I submitted it for approval. The first stop in that chain is a female officer who I'm sure will make some changes to it. She then passes it through two latino officers, both of which were prior enlisted, who will make their edits before if arrives at the awards board. All three of those people are more educated than I am. All three have taken different career paths than I did. All three paths were open to me, but I didn't want to take them. They did. They did the work required.
I could tell your story to guy in the office down the hall from mine. He ended up at the top of both the Senior Chief list and the Warrant list. English isn't his first language, but it was the one he studied before every SWE he took. And he took all of them up to and including E-8. He would have scored higher on the test if he hadn't spent so much time admiring his reflection in the mirror, but that's another story.
I could talk about an old shipmate of mine who made E-6 in 3 years, even though all of us had a hard time understanding him, but I don't want to re-open any of Brians old wounds.
I could mention a recruiter that I know who just made E-8 despite the fact that he hasn't been in rate for more than 16 years. What he didn't know,.... he studied.
We are strides ahead of the other services on this issue. Because of our size and the amount that we rely on each other, we have to be. We can't afford the clicks that form in other branches. Diversity training is a requirement. Peopel that witness where it's failing should tell somone. Is it going to reach everyone ? Of course not. You can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn. But the Coast Guard doesn't have to retain someone who isn't willing to live up to the standards that they require either.

Dennis, you have to be joking. The SWE questions are all straight forward. There are no word logic or complex questions. It's the same information that's available on the EPME websites. That information is available to everyone. Again, the playing field is level.

[BMC John Phillips III]

Diversity polices and practices are not about inclusion. They are about exclusion.

Or they were about doing away with exclusion, but what they have become and what they were intended are two different things. That's pretty general, but you see this a lot more with equal opportunity and other aspects of reducing exclusion to the point of where it has become more detrimental than it has in the CG.

Your nickname reminds me of a couple of my cousins. The first cousin with a last name of Emo, was arrested for arson. It seems he liked to torch barns and then watch the volunteer firemen show up to put it out. What's really weird is that Cousin Emo was a volunteer fireman himself. I had another cousing, also with the last name of Emo, that like to roll back the speedometers on cars.

Ray, I might be the only one to say it, but I can't be the only one thinking it - have you completely fallen off your rocker? Maybe Emo and I could get married and he could be Emo Phillips? Seriously...do you have to type everything you think?

The numbers should also be measured for each pay grade.
Emo

Are you suggesting that diversity be applied to the advancement equation or just saying that we should track how many of what type of E5's we have?

Also, I am not buying off on the english as a second language affecting SWE - not studying affects it too. I also love when people say, "well some people are just good at taking tests."

It's just like the weight issue, some people gain easier than others, they have to work harder to lose weight. The people that fall into that category (of having to work harder) and are skinny, know that gaining weight is not easy and work harder to not. If speaking or reading english is your weakness and you think being able to speak or read better would help you on the SWE, guess what - study english harder before you start studying for the SWE. Just like the person that has to run that extra mile to burn off that twinkee.

[ETC Emiliano Acuna]

For the record, I don't recall suggesting rewriting tests in 2 different languages. Just allowing a person the access to a bilingual dictionary.

No, diversity should not added to the advancement equation. Unless you consider access to a bilingual dictionary contrary to this statement. For the record, if you allow a bilingual dictionary, you should allow everyone access to a dictionary.

What you guys are missing here is that I am not advocating wholesale change. I am advocating the open dialogue of diversity.

Emo

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I'm all for open dialogue about diversity, I just don't see the need for the dictionary in the SWE. I work with bilingual people everyday. I've never seen one of them carrying around a dictionary. You're the first one who I've ever heard complain about the language barrier in the SWE. Most people I know who didn't do well on the test, either admit that they didn't study, or say they studied the wrong things.
Emo, if English isn't your first language, you're your own worst example. You're better able to express your point, than alot of people who post on this site. But I'm not seeing the things that you see. I walk around my base and see diversity. I've walked around in my career and seen diversity. I've seen people from all walks of life excel in the Coast Guard. I've also seen people from all walks of life fail in the Coast Guard. Their success or failure could be attributed to the individual, and the systems that we have in place to ensure everyone is treated equally.

[BMC Ken Gouge]

The Coast Guard will use their bilingual talents, but then restrict them during testing time.

The Coast Guard also pays them for their bilingual talents. On board we have 3 billets for paid Spanish speaking interpreters. The member has to take a test to prove that they are fluent in both written and spoken Spanish, then those three get about $100.00 per month.

We also have need for creole interpreters when dealing with Hatian migrants. I am lucky enough to have a SN of Hatian/French Canadian descent, who has taken the test to become qualified as a Creole interpreter. We don't have a billet for that and haven't been able to acquire one as yet, so even though his bilingual talents are used frequently, he doesn't get paid for it. THAT, in my opinion, is a form of discrimination against non-hispanics. I also have a white BM3 who speaks fluent French (the basis for Creole) that asked about the interpreter program. He was basically told not to bother...

I am fluent in niether, or any other foriegn language for that matter. I expect all who work for me to be fluent in english. All our manuals are in english. The advancement certificate that each is read for everyone is in english. When I put someone in for an award it is in english, and when it is presented it is in english. We have bilingual people in our service, but we are NOT a bilingual service.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Just like the person that has to run that extra mile to burn off that twinkee.

How about not picking the Twinkee up in the first place?

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

Also, I am not buying off on the english as a second language affecting SWE - not studying affects it too. I also love when people say, "well some people are just good at taking tests."

John,

I usually compare that statement with something related to the person's rating. For BM's I'd ask if they make good eyesplices. Then I'd ask how they got good at making eyesplices. The same work ethic applies to taking the EOCT or SWE.

Practice tests are available and anyone can make their own. One could even used every question in every practice test for their rating course books and make a SWE practice test.

The only test I have that is valid for BMs is the STCW's first subject, the NavRules. Some use online practice tests as validating their own knowledge base prior to taking the actual tests. After all, why would someone take the test to fail it? Coach John Wooden, former UCLA Basketball coach, said "Failure to prepare is preparing to fail".

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Ken, you don't have to be hispanic to qualify as a spanish speaker, so the system may be slanted towards spanish, not hispanics. But spanish is the most widely spoken language, and there for the most needed second language for our use. If you really need Creole speakers that much, I'd keep pushing for a billet. But be patient.... look how long we used spanish interpretters before we paid any of them anything. And only those filling the billets at units that have those billets get paid. I have a whole unit of spanish speakers that never see a dime.
As for your french speaker....... I'd tell him to take the test anyway. List it in DA. I don't know who is telling him to not bother, but I'd tell him to tell the whole world about every one of his accomplishments. There's a section in your profile just so you can list the languages that you speak. Tell him to use it. Who knows where it could take him.

[BMC John Phillips III]

Tell him to use it. Who knows where it could take him.

It might take him somewhere near Haiti and who would want that?

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Me....... it might also get him over to Europe, or be the deciding factor for placement on the Warrant list. It could be a factor in getting him the next billet that he wants.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Here's an ALCOAST that hit the board today...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ALCOAST 607/06
COMDTNOTE 5420
SUBJ: SOLICITATION FOR MEMBERSHIP TO THE COMMANDANTS DIVERSITY
ADVISORY COUNCIL
1. THE COAST GUARD IS A DIVERSE WORKFORCE, AND OUR MISSION
SUCCESS, AS WELL AS OUR CORE VALUES, REQUIRE US TO ENSURE OUR
WORK ENVIRONMENT PROMOTES INCLUSION, EQUITY AND RESPECT OF
ALL EMPLOYEES. THIS SOLICITATION IS YOUR OPPORTUNITY TO HELP
SHAPE AND INFLUENCE MATTERS REGARDING WORKPLACE CLIMATE AND
DIVERSITY MANAGEMENT ISSUES IN TODAYS COAST GUARD. COAST
GUARD ACTIVE DUTY, RESERVE, CIVILIAN EMPLOYEES AND
AUXILIARISTS INTERESTED IN SERVING AS A MEMBER OF THE
COMMANDANTS DIVERSITY ADVISORY COUNCIL (DAC) ARE ENCOURAGED
TO SUBMIT A REQUEST TO COMMANDANT (CG-12B) TO ARRIVE NO LATER
THAN 26 JAN 07.
2. THE DAC WAS ESTABLISHED TO INCREASE UNDERSTANDING AND
AWARENESS OF DIVERSITY ISSUES THROUGHOUT THE SERVICES RANKS
AND COMMUNITIES. THE COUNCIL SUPPORTS THE COAST GUARDS
PURSUIT OF DIVERSITY OBJECTIVES BY EVALUATING AND RECOMMENDING
TO THE COMMANDANT IMPROVEMENTS IN HUMAN RESOURCE MANAGEMENT
PRACTICES AND POLICIES. EXAMPLES OF ITEMS RECENTLY BROUGHT
BEFORE THE DAC INCLUDE ISSUES RELATED TO WOMEN AND MINORITY
RETENTION, THE NEED FOR DIVERSE REPRESENTATION IN LEADERSHIP
POSITIONS (ORGANIZATIONALLY AND UNIT LEVEL), ADMINISTRATION OF
THE EQUAL OPPORTUNITY REVIEW PROGRAM, CAREER DEVELOPMENT AND
MENTORING OPPORTUNITIES FOR CIVILIAN EMPLOYEES, AND CHILD CARE
INITIATIVES.
3. THE COUNCIL MEETS SEMI-ANNUALLY (FALL/SPRING), AND IS
COMPOSED OF TWENTY MEMBERS REPRESENTING TEAM COAST GUARD
(ACTIVE DUTY, RESERVE, CIVILIAN AND AUXILIARY), THAT REFLECT
THE COAST GUARDS GEOGRAPHICAL, OCCUPATIONAL, CULTURAL, ETHNIC
AND GENDER DIVERSITY. THE SPRING 2007 CONFERENCE IS SCHEDULED
TO CONVENE THE WEEK OF 30 APRIL 2007 AT CGHQ.
4. THREE POSITIONS ARE AVAILABLE FOR THE SPRING CONFERENCE
AND ONE POSITION FOR THE FALL 2007 CONFERENCE. MEMBERS SERVE
A TWO TO THREE YEAR TERM ON THE DAC, AND MUST BE COMMITTED TO
ENHANCING A SERVICE ENVIRONMENT THAT VALUES AND EMBRACES THE
CONTRIBUTIONS AND POTENTIAL OF EVERY PERSON OF OUR DIVERSE
WORKFORCE. MEMBERS MUST HAVE DEMONSTRATED EXCEPTIONAL INTER
PERSONAL QUALITIES, LEADERSHIP AND PERFORMANCE. THEY ARE EXPECTED
TO BRIEF SENIOR LEADERSHIP ON SENSITIVE HUMAN RESOURCE ISSUES,
REMAIN CURRENT IN DIVERSITY MANAGEMENT INITIATIVES, AND BE
ACCESSIBLE TO THE WORKFORCE AND THE DAC CHAIR THROUGHOUT THEIR
TENURE. THERE ARE NO MINIMUM RANK/PAYGRADE REQUIREMENTS FOR
SERVING ON THE DAC.
5. PERSONNEL INTERESTED IN MAKING A DIFFERENCE IN WORKPLACE
CLIMATE INITIATIVES AND SERVING ON THE COMMANDANTS DAC SHOULD
SUBMIT AN APPLICATION TO COMMANDANT (CG-12B) TO ARRIVE
NLT 26 JAN 07. APPLICATIONS MUST INCLUDE:
A. A SUMMARY OF CAREER ASSIGNMENTS AND DUTIES, INCLUDING
CURRENT ASSIGNMENT AND ANTICIPATED ROTATION DATE.
B. A BRIEF STATEMENT REGARDING YOUR DESIRE TO SERVE ON THE DAC
AND ANTICIPATED CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE DAC.
C. COMMAND ENDORSEMENT ADDRESSING THE MEMBERS ABILITY AND
AVAILABILITY TO SERVE A TWO TO THREE-YEAR TERM ON THE DAC.
(I.E., TWO ONE-WEEK CONFERENCES PER YEAR)
6. MEMBERS UNDERWAY, TAD FROM THEIR HOME UNIT, OR FACING
SIMILAR CIRCUMSTANCES MAY SUBMIT INFORMATION VIA MESSAGE
OR E-MAIL TO CWO2 K. HUYCK (KAREN.L.HUYCK(AT)USCG.MIL).
7. THOSE MEMBERS SELECTED WILL BE NOTIFIED BY 21 FEB 2007.
8. FOR ADDITIONAL INFORMATION REGARDING THE DAC AND ITS
CURRENT MEMBERSHIP, PLEASE VISIT OUR WEB SITE AT
HTTP://WWW.USCG.MIL/DIVERSITY OR CONTACT CWO2 KAREN HUYCK
AT 202-475-5250.
9. INTERNET RELEASE AUTHORIZED.
10. RDML R.J.RABAGO, DIRECTOR OF PERSONNEL MANAGEMENT, SENDS.
BT
NNNN

[BMC John Phillips III]

I think this kind of falls under diversity, I have noticed that a lot of the recent new members have been females, which I think is cool! Anyone else notice this? I wonder what our male to female ratio is (both on this board and in the Chiefs corps) Does anyone have that information? Master Chief Slesh / Ayer? (respectively).

I also wonder which rate has the highest percentage of female chiefs. If I had to guess I would say YN, then HS, but maybe it's PA?

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I have the paygrade breakdown at the office, but you can access it somewhere on CG Central. I'm not sure where you would get the breakdown by rating. I'd go with Brett or a recruiter for that one.

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

At ANT Kennewick we have 9 males and 1 female. I would prefer 2 females or no females. With only 1 female an no other Coast Guard (Except LORANSTA) within 200 miles, it would be nice for her to have some female comaradare at work.

[MKCM Brett Ayer]

I think this kind of falls under diversity, I have noticed that a lot of the recent new members have been females, which I think is cool! Anyone else notice this? I wonder what our male to female ratio is (both on this board and in the Chiefs corps) Does anyone have that information? Master Chief Slesh / Ayer? (respectively).

I also wonder which rate has the highest percentage of female chiefs. If I had to guess I would say YN, then HS, but maybe it's PA?

If you email me I can send you the full report, but for a quick answer:

Active Duty E-7 and above = 6.2% Female (263 out 4263)

Rating with highest % of Female Chiefs = PA with 40% (8 out of 20), YN is close with 33%.

Rating with most Females = YN with 43%.

Hope this answers your question.

Be Safe,

Brett

[BMC John Phillips III]

that more than answers my question - which was more curiousity than anything, but thank you Master Chief - You are a wealth of information!

[GMCM Bill Wells (Ret)]

I love the humor of these messages,

A TWO TO THREE YEAR TERM ON THE DAC, AND MUST BE COMMITTED TO ENHANCING A SERVICE ENVIRONMENT THAT VALUES AND EMBRACES THE
CONTRIBUTIONS AND POTENTIAL OF EVERY PERSON OF OUR DIVERSE
WORKFORCE. MEMBERS MUST HAVE DEMONSTRATED EXCEPTIONAL INTER
PERSONAL QUALITIES, LEADERSHIP AND PERFORMANCE.

The want to "embrace' diversity but only want the upper crust to tell people about it. Sounds like a stacked deck to me. Anyone recall the Workforce Study? That's the one where they cut out the non-diverse middle managers to get the answers they wanted to get. What every happened to that study?

Just what are 'inter personal" qualities?