Navigation: Past, Present and Future

[BMCS T. D. Ellis]

I want to start a thread on Navigation.

Let me throw a couple of questions up and see what happens.

1. A couple of years ago, Admiral Cross was designated the Navigator of the Coast Guard. I went on CGCentral the other day and couldn't even find a reference to him/her. Can anybody tell me who it is and what his/her duties are?

2. What are your thoughts on the Coast Guard and Electronic Navigation? Are we where we need to be? Is there good support? Is it easy to get information/training?

I have some thoughts but I'll wait. The battery is released...

[BMCS Dave Considine]

Not sure if this fits, but I read an interesting article on tide indicators that were used before electronic navigation, and these were around not too long ago. Amazing how far we have gone in a short period of time. Worth a read.

Dave

http://www.stormheroes.com/lhheritage/mt_tideindtr.htm

[MKC Craig Thorngren (Ret)]

Tim,
Didn't even know we had someone designated as our Navigator.
As for our electronic navigation, I think we as a service rely on it heavily, but have lost the skills of navigating without it. Particularly if you lose GPS and a radar. Take the defender class boats as an example. If you lose your electronics whats left to rely on? A compass that at one time HQ was considering putting a cover over with the words "For Emergency Use Only" because it was notoriously unreliable. Hopefully you could still navigate by eye with a chart... Then there is LORAN... at least we've taken it off of our operational units, but we can't extricate ourselves from being responsible for the signal. Loran was great in it's day, but it's day was a long, long time ago...
Not sure if this is what you were looking for..

Craig

[BMC Mark C. Lewis]

Admiral Cross was the Vice Commandant under Adm Collins.

[BMC Trent Spiroff]

I remember 20 years ago, having a bridge watch of six people on a 180'. Then, not to long ago (eight months), on the bridge of a 110' with full electronic package, during sea detail we manned up the bridge with six/seven poeple.

Are we relying more on electronic navigation due to reduced crew sizes? Or, due to the reliability of electronic navigation systems, have we gone to reduced crew sizes?

With small boat speeds in excess of 40 knots, we need the electronic nav system. Unfortunately the chart plotter becomes a video game screen as eyes are more on the plotter vice out the window.

I believe people should still have the skills to nav on paper. We're at the point if we loose GPS input, we return to the dock. It's always interesting to turn off the chart plotter and see which coxswains know how to use the GPS receiver to navigate with, or take away GPS input and see who can nav with just radar.

T.S.

[BMC Chris Johnson]

The biggest problem I see is standardization. We need to cut our losses in the cutter fleet and purchase one "navigation system" that is upgradeable and expandable. I been on three cutters back to back to back 180', 225' and now 140' each cutters nav system was completely different.

I have never been on a cutter that went back to the dock because the GPS was down and we regularly train without the GPS. Granted I am a former Quartermaster (wipes tears) and I believe that everyone on the bridge should be able to plot a visual and radar fix and at least know how the 3 and 6 minute rule.

We get all the support we need from our local ESD but they don't sail with us and calling C2CEN while U/W always seems to be a test in futility.

Where is the future of Coast Guard navigation? Left behind, antiquated and unreliable?

Just my observation.

[BMCS TIM SULLIVAN]

As Navigator on the LARGEST ship in the Coast Guard (HEALY)....Even though it is in Drydock at this time, we have a 5 different conning stations using a Sperry VMS and it works great, very easy to ues, we have great training...Sperry... and we send most of the DWOs to a 1 week school there, this thing drives the ship with ease. Smooth and easy updates from NGA and this reduces the work load by ten fold, WHY we have many different systems I will NEVER understand.....Blame HQ for that. We have sailed over 60,000 miles in the last 2 years and no problems, CELL/NAV no problem, u/w watch during the day open ocean 2 people. special sea detail 6 total CONN/DECK/NAV/SHIPPING/JOOD/HELM...........we call it the good life.

BMCS TIM SULLIVAN, Boatswain at heart....Navigator by trade....that is LAND is just a mear HAZZZZZARD to navigation. Have you had your TCT/ICS/IDP/ULDP/GMT/NSTT/TSTA/CART/DWO training lately.......YES

[BMCS T. D. Ellis]

As Navigator on the LARGEST ship in the Coast Guard (HEALY)....

Tim, settle down. By leading off with the size reference, I'm worried you are making up for something else...

These are all issues I was hoping to see on this thread. One pattern I am seeing is that different branches and types are coming up with solutions and not coordinating with other branches. That's why the Navigator of the Coast Guard is such an important issue. It seems to me, before any navigation stuff goes out to the fleet, it should go through that office so at least somebody has "the big picture". I also think that should be a primary duty, not a collateral because it is so important.

I'd also like to hear from the Aviation side of the house on this issue. Tell your friends. I'll bet a dollar that there is some type of standardization between the fixed/rotary wing communities.

BTW Craig, I knew Admiral Cross was the VICE.

[BMCS Dave Considine]

Hi Tim - good to see your still sailing!

Back to the thread, I have had the last (2) coxswain checkride evaluees fail their Nav and drifting pattern drills. They treat the SINS package like a video game, have their head stuck in it watching whether the little boat on the cross track error screen is drifting right or left and correcting. The only thing they need now is the Play Station controller in their hands. They hardly look out the window at all. (sorry for reiterating TS's point)

I know the issue lies with the training, and we have addressed that. I also think these younger guys have grown up on Play Station and XBox, and what is on the screen is what they believe, 2 dimensional instead of 3 dimensional. Getting the concept of correcting the cross track error over the length of the run to account for set and drift is the hard part. Accounting for environmental conditions and different boat types is not part of their comprehension.

I will now have to do two Nav runs with new coxswains (and probably recerts!), one with just the paper chart and the radar, and one with the whole SINS package in use. Then I will know their complete understanding of all the concepts.

[MKC Art Bailly (ret)]

Dave I agree it comes down to training and supervision. When I go out on my boat I can navigate using several different methods. I learned from some really great BM’s. Plan your trip, review the charts and weather before you depart, stay alert and keep you eye’s open and use all the tools you have to make a safe voyage. Every time I get underway I turn on my chart plotter and have the chart out. I like using them both. If my chart plotter has a glitch I don’t turn around and go home, I refer to the chart and at night and during reduced visibility I turn my radar on. I am stubborn on a lot of things but I am not afraid (to Stubborn) to turn around or find a safe place to anchor when the weather is crappy or not even go at all. We had a visit from the PAC Area admiral and He said something that rings true here. We need to get out from behind or computers and mage our people. Computers/electronics are the future but we still need to know what to do when the power is out.
Thank you BMCS Don Rogers and BMCM Warren Woodell for teaching a young MK3 how to navigate safely.

[BMCS T. D. Ellis]

Art,

I have heard about disabling casualties for the small boat fleet and not being a small boat guy, is loss of primary navigation a "disabling" casualty?

I have not seen SINS as of yet. I am guessing that it is a chart plotter. What kind of charts does it use? Is there a good correction system for those charts or are you still referring to paper charts?

We have the ECPINS, which uses OSL charts, a proprietary system that are corrected, sort of. We also have the CAP'N onboard and it uses BSB format charts, ENCs, and DNCs. We still have paper charts onboard so we are correcting four different chart formats. When we do corredctions, we have to do the paper charts manually and check every electronic correction manually using the paper charts to ensure what we are getting is correct. It's a pain, but better safe than sorry.

Underway it works great but doing and checking corrections and tracklines on 3 seperate systems is a pain.

[MKC Art Bailly (ret)]

I didn’t check for all small boats but on 47’s if your electronics wont turn on it’s a disabling, If your loose a piece of electronics (radio, GPS, chart plotter, radio) it is a restrictive and if you have 2 or more restrictive it becomes a disabling. Not sure about other districts but in D-17 if you have a restrictive you must get a written waiver to get underway. If you have a disabling you don’t leave the pier until it’s fixed.
I know they have to have corrected paper charts for their area on board and I usually get their old charts if it’s a newer version then the ones I have on my boat and If none of the boats/cutters have any charts that they are getting ride of I go to the local boat store and buy them. At 20 bucks a chart I try to find the free ones. I think it is a must to have paper charts on board. What if you loose power and your batteries die? You pull out your paper charts.

[BMCS Mark Stauffer]

I would be willing to bet that the majority of station OICs out there have in their small boat nav standards the requirement to have the charts out when the boat is underway. It seems we have evolved into being electronic savvy and have possibly taken away from the knowledge of the paper chart.

On the other hand I would much rather know where I am than where I have been. As Trent mentioned earlier, with the speed of the boats it is a requirement to always know where you are and not where you were. The boats are fast and highly maneuverable so electronic navigation is a must.

We are using so many different electronic navigation systems now that it is unbelievable. We have SINS, ECDIS, ECPINS, CAPN and who knows what else is out there. The CG is always standardizing things but yet the standardization of electronics across the cutter and small boat communities has failed.

[BMCS T. D. Ellis]

I finally found out who the Navigator of the Coast Guard is, Captain Wayne Muilenburg. It was previously held by OCU (cutter forces) now called CG-37RCU. It will be a 1 Star, not sure who. I am torn on the issue of paperless/paper navigation. While I used to enjoy sitting in the chart room at night with a lukewarm cup of coffee and half a pack of cigarettes and creating, what I thought, were works of art on paper charts, I don't miss all hands not actually on watch on the bridge for navigation detail.

Still hoping an Aviation type will chime in with what is happening or is in use on the airframes.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Air dales use some of both. There have two electronic navigation systems and still carry the paper version. At least it looks that way when I am riding.

[BMCS Mark Stauffer]

My XPO has a quote at the bottom of his e-mails. I thought that it is truly appropriate for some of the conversations on this thread. Tim, I'm sure you'll like this after your post of the half a pack of smokes and cup of coffee doing (ch)art work.

“The science of Navigation can be taught, but the art of navigation must be developed from experience.”

~Nathaniel Bowditch

[MKC Art Bailly (ret)]

I agree that using a chart plotter is the way to go these days but if the power should go out, we should still know how to use a paper chart. I kind of relate it to engines. The person behind the helm pushes a button/throttle to make the cutter/small boat go but if they push that button/throttle and nothing happens we still need to know how to manually make the cutter/boat go thru the water to get home.

[BMCS T. D. Ellis]

Rgr on the ability to use paper charts. But can we expect our people to have the familiarity with the paper charts that we had. I don't think we can effectively double the amount of knowledge required, maintain paper and the systems and still expect crews to qualify quickly.

Even here, most of our aspiring QMOWs are fresh out of "A" school. Most with no previous navigational experience and we spend most of our time with the QMOWs are port and starboard while training our new QMOWs.

I still feel we need to standardize our systems which would maximize the interoperability throughout the fleet, including the boat fleet, so you are not learning an entirely new system when changing platforms. This includes chart formats. I mean off the top of my head I know of OSL, ENC, BSB, RNC, DNC and CMAP. I am sure there are more and there are probably that many systems. Regardless, all the different navigation and tactical systems SHOULD be talking to each other with NMEA strings which is standard throughout the world which means they all could run on a laptopand then talk to all the related equipment such as DPS, COMDAC and other associated systems.

[BMC Ken Gouge]

Doesn't seem like it should be that hard, since we have a "Navigator of the Coast Guard" :D Let him do a survey, take a vote or whatever, then sign the contract. Price be damned, we can use the money that was programmed to keep the 123's afloat in FY-07.

We have COMDAC-INS on board, and still keep the paper charts out and take at least 30min fixes, dr's, set/drift etc. Occasionally when the wrong button gets pushed by the wrong person it's the paper fix that catches the mistake.

P.S. I have never had to re-boot a paper chart.