Uniform Board

[BMCM Deane Smith]

I'm starting the process of a recommended change to the Uniform Board. I was wondering if anyone has done this before. If so, please provide any feedback/advise that you might have. It seems to be easy enough to do, but am always looking for input. Thanks.

I'm recommending a change to the enlisted insignia size for ball caps and parkas for E-7 and above. I think that we should be wearing the garrison cap size insignia on ball caps and on the parka. I figure I'll run it up the change and see what happens.

[SKC Jaime N Austria]

I'm attached to a Naval Coastal Warfare unit, 80% Navy, 20% Coast Guard. The Navy have larger insignia on their ball caps. Its a lot easier to see. I hope the uniform board agrees with your recommendation.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Deane,

Before you go through all that and wondering just what happens -- here are is a copy of the agenda items from the last Uniform Board that met in the Spring of 06 -- No word on any of these yet.

[MKC Craig Thorngren (Ret)]

Deane, it looks like some one beat you to it... I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens. There seemed to be quite a few good suggestions this time.

Craig

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Thanks Steve. It looks like the headgear insignia is being addressed, but I didn't see the parka...so, I guess I'll still run it up the chain.

Good reading. I'm going to print this and post for the crew to read.

[MKC Art Bailly (ret)]

You have got to be kidding. I think this one is total BS. What ever happened to the separation of church and state?

Wearing of the Yarmulke in Uniform
Proposal Allow the wearing of a yarmulke with the Coast Guard uniform indoors and out.


Suggester’s Discussion: Orthodox Judiasm mandates wear of a head covering, or kippah, at all times as a sign of respect to God. Outdoors, this requirement is satisfied by the wearing of the appropriate Coast Guard cover, but the Uniform Regulations currently mandates that religious items must be concealed or worn only during religious services, which prohibits their wear during most indoor times.

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

Art, I have to disagree with you on this one. While I am not Jewish, I respect the fact that those who are have traditions, guidlines, doctrines... that mandate the wear of the kippah. The very amendment that you refer to protects their right to worship as they please. The separation of church and state says that the government will not dictate to people how, when or whom they will worship, and allow them the freedom to worship as they choose. If it is worn in good taste and not distracting from the uniform, I have no problem with it.

[HSC Chris Fly]

Maybe it's just me, but a LOT of those suggestions sound like a LOT of whining! So what if we wear our collar devices different depending on what shirt we wear, it's called knowing what the regs are! Some of the suggestions are great and really sound thought out in the best interest of our people. Most just sounded like people being lazy.
That's my .02, take it for what it's worth
Chris

**my reply has nothing to do with the yamika issue, that doesn't bother me in the slightest. Although it might open up a huge can of worms for other religious apparal**

[MKC Art Bailly (ret)]

Rebuttal, I don’t care what your religion is. I won’t push mine on you if you don’t push yours on me. I find it offensive and as I have found out recently that no matter what your intent is (even if it is intended in a positive way), if someone finds it offensive, it is offensive. What’s next we allow a woman to wear a scarf around their face because their religion requires it or allow them to cover their hair and face or someone to wear a turban or grow a beard? What about uniformity?? That’s why we have Uniform Regs so that everyone is uniform. I am not prohibiting them to their beliefs just to wear the proper uniform of the day, and when they go home they can wear what ever they want. But even then when your off duty we have certain guidelines we have to follow when it comes to what items we can wear off duty, like offensive t-shirts open toed shoes and shirts in the galley. The list goes on. Kind of like the comments the board gives about unit t-shirts and how everyone is wearing different shirts and now we need a uniform shirt with rank and coast guard on every t-shirt. This is the military, conform to military standards of find a different job.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Art...I'm confused. In the "Hippies" thread, you saif that you didn't mind someone being gay in the military as long as they were doing their job. Can't someone do their job with a religous lid? How is this different. If they are doing ther job and not pushing anything on you...

[MKC Art Bailly (ret)]

Two totally different topics. Let’s compare apples to apples and not apples to oranges. I don’t care what kind of "lid" they wear when their not in uniform. Why can’t I wear my favorite ball cap, turban, scarf, whatever if it doesn’t affect my work. Because its not part of the Uniform... and I don’t care what anyone’s sexual preference is as long as they stay with-in 8-H. If two guys or gals want to have a relationship and their not in the same command I don’t care but right now the rules don’t allow for that so that is not allowed. Personal relation ships and Uniforms are two different topics. Hence the different thread.<O:p</O:p

[BMCS Ian McVicker]

I will have to go back through the archives and find the msg, but I'll go with my memory for now.

I believe the subject of the Yarmulke has already been hashed out earlier this year. If my memory serves, it started with an Auxiliarist earlier this year being told he could not wear one in uniform. This person argued the point thru the COC, with the issue finally resting at HQ. I know something came out from HQ directing that it could be worn while in uniform for the Auxiliary. I am unsure if they included Active and Reserve, or that they would be addressing the issue in the future. I remember it being a big deal in the news, and I believe was somewhere in D1.

If I find the info I'll post.

[BMCS Ian McVicker]

News story was in New York in early August, and concerned an Auxiliarist pilot. Coast Guard issued a statement saying that "Verbal Permission" has been given for the service, and would officially be sent to the field in writing at a later date.

The DOD has allowed this in uniform regs since 1987. It has been stated that they are being allowed due to the size of the head piece. It is small enough to fit under another cover when the mbr is outdoors.

[MCPO Francis Jennings]

Art-

The authorization is very restrictive, and is in general alignment with all other branches of the service. You probably won't see any religious headwear on the buoy deck or flight line. And likely, when worn, it'll be as hidden as the cross or medallion that many of us wear beneath our uniforms.

One problem is that Judaism is only one of the over 500 recognized religions. There will almost certainly be a constitutional challenge on a religious apparel issue from one of the other religions. In that case, it would probably be allowed on a "not to interfere" basis just like the yarmulke. And why shouldn't it be? "Land of the Free", right?

FFJ

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

That does not seem unreasonable to me. It is not distracting. It does not take attention away from the uniform. Then again I don't make the rules. I just have to enforce them.

[BMC Edward Briganti]

I'm currently at the Pacific area training team as an LE instructor (a red shirt guy) and came upon this,
QUICK HITTER #18
De-Authorize Red Shirts for Training Teams

Proposal: Remove current authorization for training teams to wear red polo shirts.

Discussion: The Uniform Regs currently states “Maritime Law Enforcement instructors are authorized to wear organizational clothing as prescribed in the Maritime Law Enforcement Manual, COMDTINST M16247.1, Enclosure 13.D.3.”

is the red shirt that bad to warrant it making it to the uniform board to "De-authorize them"

Ed

[BMC John Phillips III]

Maybe it's just me, but a LOT of those suggestions sound like a LOT of whining! So what if we wear our collar devices different depending on what shirt we wear, it's called knowing what the regs are! Some of the suggestions are great and really sound thought out in the best interest of our people. Most just sounded like people being lazy.
That's my .02, take it for what it's worth
Chris

**my reply has nothing to do with the yamika issue, that doesn't bother me in the slightest. Although it might open up a huge can of worms for other religious apparal**

I will second your entire post; especially the part in red.

**my use of the color red has nothing to do with instructors wearing red shirts! :p **

If I were to add or change anything about the uniform regs, I would
1. allow all aton units to wear black ball caps
2. always have the cuttermans pin above all other insignia and
3. change something about the cuttermans pin when you earn your 2nd one (10 years sea time) but that's a selfish change.

[FSC Jeff Stumpf]

ART seperation of church and state? How is wearing a religous symbol fall into that catagory? Unless it was the CO telling everyone they need to wear them. I am with Deane on this one if they do their job let wear their religous items. I also think that people use the seperation of church and state way to much. That amendment was put in there so the government can't tell us how to worship, not to stop people from worshipping.

[BMC John Phillips III]

Jeff,

I was going to stay out of this part of this discussion but you drew me in, good job. Let me try to answer that question, I am surprised that you or BMCS Smith haven't figured it out.

Part of doing "your job" is conforming to standards and instructions. To date, wearing religious items is limited to out of sight. So if you are wearing it under your ball cap I have no issues (you are doing your job). Step indoors and remove your cover and still have something on your head, you are no longer doing your job. You are no longer conforming to rules or instructions.

Until a change is issued, you have a job to do, that job is adhering to ALL Comdts instructions not just the ones that suit your needs.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

My comments were to Art, to have him clarify his position. I never said that I thought they should wear them in uniform.

[BMC John Phillips III]

My mistake, I read your initial comments on whether or not they would be doing their job and thought maybe you really meant they were doing their job. I also thought for a moment that you are simply playing "devils advocate" (religious pun, while there, not intended). Who knows maybe Jeff is just trying to give a different perspective as well. I just see it as not conforming to standards, pretty cut and dry.

I do think Art could have put it in words that might have been a little easier to swallow or accept, but as I have read a lot of his posts, I think he's a straight shooter and calls things as he sees them, not necessarily worrying about hurting anyone's feelings. All in all a good quality, but I could see how others might be offended.

[CMC Bruce Bradley]

Well Ed as far as the red shirt issue goes I don't think that it's a problem as long as it's wear doen't replace the uniform blouse entirely. I do have an problem with those training team members who show up wearing it at the in-brief and then all week.

If the team is doing something "physical" then have at, but not for classroom training. After all, just because I'm an SAI doesn't mean that I should wear my range shirt daily.

[BMCS T. D. Ellis]

Not religious, but I had an incident a couple of years ago.

I had an African-American cook aboard. He was alone on board. We were at the CG YARD. He wanted to put in corn rows. I checked the manual before the latest change, and it stated (paraphrasing) "non-faddish haircuts, tapered, CO's call". I checked with the CO, he left it up to me, so I let him. He was so happy and kept them within the standards.

Well, the rest of the commands and Chiefs at the YARD were, to put it mildly, not happy. I could have probably shot the Pope and got less crap. Long story short, I stuck with my decision, the CO backed me up and the cook did a better job than before. I am sure I'll catch crap for that last remark but what the heck. The next update of the uniform manual specifically prohibited cornrows so he took them out, but really appreciated what the CO and I did for him.

The moral of the story was, the kid was a better member after I backed him, I used the manual to the member's advantage and mine, and had fun doing it.

Getting back to the yarmulke, there is a guy down here in Baltimore that wears one in uniform. It matches his hair color and is barely noticeable. I had to look twice the first time I saw him. I guess the bottom line is I'll follow whatever the policy is. Religious tolerance is one of the reasons this country is so great as long as it isn't thrown in my face, forced to follow somebody else's ideas of morals or follow a certain flavor of religion.

Live and let live.

[MKC Art Bailly (ret)]

Ditto JP3, I think you have me figured out and you put it better then I did. And yes I call as I see it and sometimes that is one of my biggest flaws. But anyways thanks for clarifying that for me.

[ASTC Ronny German]

You have got to be kidding. I think this one is total BS. What ever happened to the separation of church and state?

Art,

What is your opinion of religious ceremonies at command functions (change of commands, retirements etc) where the chaplain or pastor says "we pray in our lord Jesus Christ’s name"?

I don't want to get into a religious debate, but my feelings on the subject is the person wearing a yarmulke is no different than the person wearing a cross or a symbol of their religion on a necklace (personal decision, no "church and state" like you said earlier). On the other hand, having a chaplain or preacher at a command function who asks the troops to pray in anyone’s name is guilty IN MY OPINION of assuming that we all believe in the same thing and TO ME that is flat out wrong!

Just my opinion.

Thanks

[SKC Raymond Kurtz]

Today's History Lesson...............

You have got to be kidding. I think this one is total BS. What ever happened to the separation of church and state?

The constitutional separation of church and state does not exist. The First Amendment reads as follows:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Please tell me where in the First Amendment there is a clause setting up the separation of the church from the state?

Separation of church and state has its origins in a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html.

From the beginning of our nation, religion has always held an important part in it. Our Founding Fathers did not want a government meddling in the affairs of a church or any religion, they envisioned a nation to be free from a state sponsored religion such as the Church of England.

[MSTCS Jerald P. Motyka]

Thanks, Ray, I was going to post that. I wish more people were aware that the "separation" thing is just a social construct that isn't in the Constitution.

This yarmulke thing is rough. On one hand, we have a person that is proclaiming their faith in Jehovah - but this person over here is prohibited from putting a kresh (nativity scene) on their desk - because they might bother people by proclaiming their religion for all to see.

This is truly a bitch of a topic!!

The Sikh have a requirement to wear a turban all the time, and the very thought of having someone other than god or their spouse see their hair is a very serious sin. Do we allow those turbans as well?

What of an Wiccan's sacrificial dagger? Or a Buddhist's little wooden male member on a string?

As much as it pains me to say it, I would have to recommend banning it all - rather than allowing one and having the others ticked off at us.

But this is a GREAT thread!!

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Here's a link to a Wikipedia site that explains (in great detail) the separation of church and state...you gotta love the internet! Enjoy the read, it's worth the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state

[SKC Raymond Kurtz]

The problem is that most people will believe anything that the media or any politician tells them. Michael Newdow is trying to get ALL references to God removed from the public arena. His basis is the 1st amendment which HE says contains the clause "separation of church and state." Most people will not bother to read what the constitution really says and will take what Newdow says at face value.

The Finance Center used to prohibit the word "Christmas" in any form. Might offend someone. Fine, if it offends someone that much and since Christmas will fall on a weekday for the next few years, make the complainers work on Christmas Day. If you do not believe in it, how can you take the day off?

[MKC Art Bailly (ret)]

Ray I agree with you. If you don’t believe in Christmas then get to work and the same goes for Halloween and Thanksgiving.

Ron I agree with you on the command sponsored event issue, but on the yarmulke I still disagree and your analogy with the cross or necklace is off also. A cross or necklace is hidden and required to be not visible indoors or outdoors. If you want to wear it under your cover then ok but when you remove your cover you remove your yarmulke. We have reasons why we remove our cover indoors. Will they be required to salute when in doors and their covered?ffice:office" /><O:p></O:p> anyone know why this keeps showing up at the end of my post? the office, smilie face, ffice? and how can I fix it.

[AETC Joseph Adams]

I couldn't believe it myself. Our command is allowing our annual "Christmas" party for the adults on one day and the kids on another but refuses to call it so. They are now "Holiday Cheer Parties" I figured if any organization would give these idiots the finger, it would be the military. Whoda thought?

[SKC Raymond Kurtz]

I couldn't believe it myself. Our command is allowing our annual "Christmas" party for the adults on one day and the kids on another but refuses to call it so. They are now "Holiday Cheer Parties" I figured if any organization would give these idiots the finger, it would be the military. Whoda thought?

I've got a suggestion. Don't go. Does your command celebrate Kwanza? Ramadan? Hannukah? If so they are not being very tolerant of those that choose not to celebrate them.

[MKC Art Bailly (ret)]

I believe what Joe was saying is that he can’t believe the command wont call it a Christmas party, not that they were having them. Also that if anyone would have the gonads to tell they Nay Sayers (anti religious) to bit sand, Its Christmas. Dec 25 is to celebrate the birth of Christ not to have a big party and exchange gifts. Which goes back to our point, If you don’t believe in what Christmas is all about then don’t celebrate, show up at work on Dec 25<SUP>th</SUP> and let those of use that do believe celebrate the way we want (Don’t tell use we need to change the name because it might offend you) and you can celebrate what ever your religious holidays you believe in and call it what ever you want. I don’t care as long as you leave mine alone.<O:p</O:p

[MSTC F Bizzell]

We have simply become too PC for our own good. I agree, if the word Christmas offends then they have the right to not attend the function. Just becuase it is called a certain name does not mean we do not want others to participate.

Heck if that was the case then there are several words that would have caused me to be offended and not want to participate such as "underway", "Now all E-5 and below lay to the pier to handle ships stores", "Captains Mast", " This is a drill", etc. :)

[BMC Ken Gouge]

I beleive in Christmas :D Heck for a day off, I'm all for Presidents Day, Cinco de Mayo, Arbor Day, Groundhogs day... You get my drift.

If you don't like Christmas, don't celebrate it. If you don't like me celebrating Christmas GET OVER IT!!! We have more than just Christmas day off if operations allow, and it allows you to celebrate whichever winter holiday you wish. Don't put up lights, a nativity, decorate a tree, have Santa with presents for the kids, and tell me it's not a Christmas party.

The problem is that everyone wants their way recognized as "right". And if my way isn't the popular choice then I want to complain so you can't have your way either. If you don't like the music, change the station! If you don't like a movie, stay home! If you don't like second hand smoke, stop inhaling! None of these things deserve protests and laws.

I haven't noticed many Ahmish or Mennonites(sp) in the service, probably because what we do and how we do it doesn't coincide with their beleifs. If the military puts that much of a cramp in your beleifs, I'm sorry... but when I joined I knew what I was getting into. The rules weren't vague, and I signed the dotted line just like you.

[MSTCS Jerald P. Motyka]

The problem is that most people will believe anything that the media or any politician tells them. Michael Newdow is trying to get ALL references to God removed from the public arena. His basis is the 1st amendment which HE says contains the clause "separation of church and state." Most people will not bother to read what the constitution really says and will take what Newdow says at face value.
As much as I would like to run him over, Newdow DOES have one point.

The constitution is clear about "legislating" religion - as in, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

The actual WORDS of the Pledge of Allegiance were put into law in the mid '50's to show those dirty Godless communist Soviets that we were better then they were... which is a law... stating pretty strongly that we were a monotheistic country.

The way I see the constitution, the wording is in direct violation of the First Amendment - as it directly excludes those that are polytheistic (more than one god).

So, I end up supporting a guy (Newdow) that I would just as soon run over in a BIG truck... then back up to see what I hit.

[ETCS Michael Backs]

Jerald, as much as I have disagreed with some of your posts, I would never want to park and re-park a truck on you just because I disagreed with you. :rolleyes:

I agree with you that Congress violated the First Amendment when they added the words to the pledge. Hopefully most people realize why they added the words, but it was still illegal and it should be returned to its original form, because the first Amendment was written that way for a reason.

We have the best country in the world because we recognize that everyone has the freedom to worship (or not worship) as they choose, and we should not ever let one religion become the defacto standard, as some politicians forgot back in 1954, as well as the current administration. :mad:

I may not like the current crop of politicians, but at least I live in a country where I can still disagree. :D

[DCCS Brett Wickett]

What does any of this have to do with the uniform board?

[ETCS Michael Backs]

Art posted about the separation of church and state and the wearing of the Yarmulke in uniform part of the Uniform Board.

And the conversation flowed. :D

[BMCS T. D. Ellis]

I couldn't believe it myself. Our command is allowing our annual "Christmas" party for the adults on one day and the kids on another but refuses to call it so. They are now "Holiday Cheer Parties" I figured if any organization would give these idiots the finger, it would be the military. Whoda thought?

I hate to tell you this but we are not a military organization according to our senior leadership. According to them, "we are a business not a military organization". I put that in quotes because a RADML (SEL) made this statement at a CO's conference and was not contradicted by any of the district staff. So I am sure there will be no "finger giving", and I am just as sure as the new Congress gets sworn in and this person gets shoulderboards, we have not seen anything yet. :eek:

[BMC Trent Spiroff]

Puerto Rico was great for Holidays. I've never seen so many days off. There's about a holiday every other week. Nobody ever complained about those holidays. Add on the trucker strikes and protest, we averaged a four day work week.

[ASTC Ronny German]

Holiday Routine was great in Borinquen..we didn't return to our normal schedule until after three kings day which was usually around the 7th or 8th of January....Good Times ;)

[MSTC F Bizzell]

I hate to tell you this but we are not a military organization according to our senior leadership. According to them, "we are a business not a military organization". I put that in quotes because a RADML (SEL) made this statement at a CO's conference and was not contradicted by any of the district staff. So I am sure there will be no "finger giving", and I am just as sure as the new Congress gets sworn in and this person gets shoulderboards, we have not seen anything yet. :eek:
T.D.,

I am not suprised by those comments. I have been hearing that very same thing over the last few months or so. I pray these last 2.6 years for me are the fastest known to man so I can retire before things get too crazy. As for the uniform board issues, I hear COMDT actually approved some of the changes but have yet to get the little birdie at HQ who told me to tell me which ones got approved. To me, its all good though. That is the one thing I can say about our organization: change is constant and unavoidable.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Tim, it doesn't matter if someone said it, and no one under him contradicted it...... it doesn't make it true. Drop a line to the Coast Guard's Chief of Staff and see if he agrees. Asks the COMDT........ The Coast Guard will always be more than a business.

[BMCS T. D. Ellis]

Stu,

I know it's more than a business, you know it's more than a business, but it was still irresponsible for a senior leader to be saying this, especially when you are putting on a star. :(

BTW, how did a Uniform Board discussion end here?

[MKC Wayne Cox]

We are not a military organization? I wonder if Doug Munro thought about the Coast Guards business model when he was being popped full of holes while evacuating the Marines? We recently lost DC3 Nathan Bruckenthal to a terrorist's bomb in this WAR and this senior officer says we are not a military organization? WE most certainly ARE. This is the very reason the Chiefs mess is so very important. If we do not honor our heritage, enforce our military stardards and train our people up and down the chain of command to be true military professionals that understand the threat we are fighting in this war these people will ruin our Coast Guard. This person obviously does not understand the nature of the threat we are up against because a business mentality is not going to prevent terrorist attacks and win this war. :mad:

"I shall sell life dearly to an enemy of my country"
From The Creed of the United States Coast Guardsman

[MCPO Francis Jennings]

....according to our senior leadership...."we are a business not a military organization". ....a RADML (SEL) made this statement at a CO's conference and was not contradicted by any of the district staff. So I am sure there will be no "finger giving", and I am just as sure as the new Congress gets sworn in and this person gets shoulderboards, we have not seen anything yet.

Senior-

I'll bet my Martina McBride tickets that this statement is taken completely out of context. It just doesn't make sense. Were you there when this was said? Or is this scuttlebutt? I'd say that there are a great many business rules that apply to our military service. And as one of those fortunate few WLM XPOs, you must admit that your duties are generally more business (budget, management, administration, security) than military.

I do agree with you, however, that "we have not seen anything yet". I think that our military service is well led, and there are many very good changes in store.

FFJ

[BMCS T. D. Ellis]

MC,

Yes, I was there unfortunately, gritting my teeth and maintaining my military bearing, and seeing every other Chief in the room doing the same thing.

I still stand by my statement not only because I am buried in ADMIN, but by what I've seen recently. Another example I'll throw out is that secure comms have been an issue since PAN-AM 800. Yet we have really done nothing because I still see reports on operations talking about using cell phones and I've been told (I was there) that the solution was expensive and it was a "business decision" not to solve it.

That phrase comes up way too often when we have a tough decision to make. I would rather hear, "We know there is a problem and we have decided not to address it at this time and willing to accept the consequences." I ran into the same problem after 9/11 when asking about NBC/CBR/WMD equipment and I am tired of it. :mad:

[SKC Raymond Kurtz]

MC,

Yes, I was there unfortunately, gritting my teeth and maintaining my military bearing, and seeing every other Chief in the room doing the same thing.

I still stand by my statement not only because I am buried in ADMIN, but by what I've seen recently. Another example I'll throw out is that secure comms have been an issue since PAN-AM 800. Yet we have really done nothing because I still see reports on operations talking about using cell phones and I've been told (I was there) that the solution was expensive and it was a "business decision" not to solve it.

That phrase comes up way too often when we have a tough decision to make. I would rather hear, "We know there is a problem and we have decided not to address it at this time and willing to accept the consequences." I ran into the same problem after 9/11 when asking about NBC/CBR/WMD equipment and I am tired of it. :mad:

Two points, it was TWA 800. The other is regarding the use of cell phones to discuss issues that should only be discussed using secure comms. Are we waiting for the proverbial horse to escape from the barn before this vital issue is addressed?

[MSTCS Jerald P. Motyka]

Comms will be a problem forever. The TWA-800 response is burned into my memory as a comms disaster.

Senior, you are a better man that I am - I would have opened my big mouth at that one. I am a proud member of the U.S. military and wouldn't stand to let a NON-RATE say something like that - I certainly would at least ask for an explanation for what the joker was trying to say.

There IS a chance that the words came out but he didn't intend them in the manner that they were heard (and didn't catch it himself)... or he could really believe that he works for IBM.

Yeah, I woulda spoke up... and then let you rip me apart afterwards for embarrassing a Flag Officer in public. To me, it would have been worth it.

[BMC Daniel B. Wenger]

My two shinny pennies:

If this is allowed, it will only open the door for all kinds of claims and objections. I grew up with quite a few orthodox Jews and know some of the customs. If this was an issue of concern with a specific person, they should have asked about it before signing on the dotted line.

[MKCM Brett Ayer]

My two shinny pennies:

If this is allowed, it will only open the door for all kinds of claims and objections. I grew up with quite a few orthodox Jews and know some of the customs. If this was an issue of concern with a specific person, they should have asked about it before signing on the dotted line.

What’s wrong with opening the door? If a religious article does not distract from the military appearance of the uniform, and does not present a safety hazard, then what is the problem?

Woman can wear makeup.
Members can have visible tattoos.
I can wear my wedding ring.

Each of these has restrictions based on the criteria I stated above. None are a major problem, and none are protected by the Constitution like religious freedom is. So why do we have a more restrictive policy on religious expression than other visible non-uniform items?

Be Safe,

Brett

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

So simple and yet so profound. Seems that everyone should be able to see the forest through the trees.

Thanks Brett.

[BMC Ken Gouge]

Something explained to me as a private in the Army, was that the Bill of Rights which you defend no longer belong to you.

There are many examples, but the easiest is freedom of religion. There are a wide diversity of religions in the U.S. that, while recognized in society, are not practiceable in the military. Religions which require snake handling, sacrificing chickens etc. while extreme, are still religions and are not practical in the military.

There was an article recently in the Navy Times about a mother having to sue to get a Wiccan symbol placed on her sons tombstone. Simpleton that I am, I had to read on to find out that it was a Pagan religion. I don't know anything about that, but maybe when it comes to issues like this we should check with the larger services to see how they handle things like religion. Not that they are better or worse, they just have more people and have likely crossed that bridge before.

[BMC Daniel B. Wenger]

I'm a reasonable person. I'd go with this.
As long as the item does not pose a safety risk, detract from the uniform, and is part of a recognized religion.

[DCC Barry Insley]

Hey Dan,
Long time, no see.
The big question there is "Who decides what is a recognized religion?" Is there a grand list somewhere? Does a religion have to be recognized by the IRS or some other government agency? My question is not where does it stop? I want to know who decides where it starts? Just points to ponder in my opinion.

[SKC Ronald Brumble]

So then, what is the general consensus for the Yarmulke while in uniform?

For those that may not know what they stand for, me for one, I post the following link. It was an interesting read.

http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_kippah.htm

[SKC Raymond Kurtz]

Ron, that was very educational, thanks for sharing it.

[BMC Ken Gouge]

Ron, I have to say it would be fine under your Coast Guard head covering, but removed indoors anytime you would normally remove your hat. Judging from the story that would defeat the whole purpose of wearing it.

I have to agree with Brett, don't sign a contract then hope you can change the terms later.

[MKC Art Bailly (ret)]

I agree Ken. Wear it under the guidelines that all the other people wear their religious items. Under their uniforms out of site of others. A catholic person can wear a cross around their neck as long as its out of site. If you want to allow a person to wear a religious device on their head indoors then you should have to allow any other religious item to be displayed in doors. Example - As long as it is not a safety issue a catholic person should be able to take the cross out from under their shirt to show their respect to their god just like the Jewish faith does to wear their Kippa in doors to show respect to their higher being or I think it’s Muslim women that wear a scarf covering their hair. If you don’t I could see a few discrimination cases coming up. If everyone were able to show their religious symbols outside their uniforms in good taste (none distracting as some put it) then I’m all for it but to only allow one is WRONG and discriminating.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

I've been following this discussion, ta;lk about huge left turn from the thread's original topic -- Maybe we should just go with a a religious symbolism thread?

Since we are on to religious symbolism, how about the designes that are avaiable on official military headstones?

The official list can be found here:

http://www.cem.va.gov/cem/hm/hmemb.asp

There was a recent case (lawsuit?) where the WICAN Church wanted to get their emblem included on the list of available symbols.

Updated Nov. 13, 2006, 3:46 p.m. ET

Widows sue to get Wiccan symbol on military headstones

WASHINGTON (AP) — The widows of two combat veterans sued the government Monday for not allowing Wiccan symbols on their husbands' military headstones.

The U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs allows military families to choose any of 38 authorized headstone images. The list includes commonly recognized symbols for Christianity, Buddhism, Islam and Judaism, as well as those for smaller religions such as Sufism Reoriented, Eckiankar and the Japanese faith Seicho-No-Ie.

The Wiccan pentacle, a five-pointed star surrounded by a circle, is not on the list, an omission that the widows say is unconstitutional.

The lawsuit was filed by Roberta Stewart, whose husband, Nevada National Guard Sgt. Patrick Stewart, was killed in combat in Afghanistan last year, and Karen DePolito, whose husband, Jerome Birnbaum, is a Korean War veteran who died last year.

Wiccans worship the Earth and believe they must give to the community. Some consider themselves "white" or good witches, pagans or neo-pagans. Approximately 1,800 active-duty service members identify themselves as Wiccans, according to 2005 Defense Department statistics.

Attorneys for Americans United, a group advocating separation of church and state, argued in legal papers that it makes no sense for Wiccans to be excluded. The Army allows Wiccan soldiers to list their faith on dog tags, Wiccan organizations are allowed to hold services on military installations and the Army Chaplains Handbook includes an explanation of the religion, attorneys said.

Stewart, whose husband was awarded the Bronze Star and Purple Heart, has sought federal government approval to affix the pentacle to the Veterans' Memorial Wall in Nevada. Veterans officials denied the request but Nevada officials said they would erect a plaque with the symbol.

In memos and letters cited by the lawsuit, Lindee L. Lenox, director of memorial programs for the veterans agency, said the government was reviewing the process for evaluating and approving new emblems and would not accept new applications until the review was complete.

Circle Sanctuary, a Wiccan church located in Barneveld, Wis., is also suing, saying Wiccans have been trying for years to get the religion recognized.

The suit was filed in U.S. District Court in Western Wisconsin.

[ETC Pat Kaschube]

There is a reason we call it Uniform. While in Uniform we should all present a common, consistant appearance. It is my two cents that nothing should be worn on the outside of a uniform that distracts from the uniform. I don't want to streetch things here too much but I don't wear my football's team logo on my uniform, folks aren't allowed to wear their favorite NASCAR drivers number on their uniform and there are folks that are not religious that feel as strongly about their sports teams as others feel about their religion. I am a generic military Protestant raised that way by a military father. My religion doesn't call for the wearing of specific items outside my uniform but if it did and I knew that before joining the Coast Guard then I would have had to make a choice. It's a double edged sword, we have freedom of religion in America however we are also in the military and as such all branches of the service should wear their uniform in accordance with their uniform regulations. Untill that changes I think there should not be any exceptions.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

I say follow the guidelines that are place for the Chaplains -- If they are engaged in a religious services/ceremonies, then the wearing of religious accouterments is authorized.

So if someone is Jewish and participating in a religious ceremony in uniform, they can wear the yamulke, what is the problem?

[MKC Craig Thorngren (Ret)]

Steve,
That is probably the best answer I've read in this discussion. It's a great compromise, yet it also allows us to maintain our uniformity (pun intended :D ).

Craig

[ETC Pat Kaschube]

Nice call from the PA. Not sure how that works for members of the faiths that have specialized clothing but it would sure work for me.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Here's the ALCOAST hot off the press...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

ALCOAST 011/07
COMDTNOTE 1020
SUBJ: RESULTS OF UNIFORM BOARD NO. 41
A. UNIFORM REGULATIONS, COMDTINST M1020.6 (SERIES)
B. U. S. COAST GUARD MARITIME LAW ENFORCEMENT MANUAL, (MLEM)
COMDTINST M16247.1 (SERIES)
1. THIS ALCOAST REPORTS THE RESULTS FROM UNIFORM BOARD NO. 41. IT
ALSO IMPLEMENTS CHANGES TO THE UNIFORM REGULATIONS WHICH WILL
REMAIN IN EFFECT UNTIL INCORPORATED INTO THE NEXT CHANGE OF REF
(A). (CURRENTLY UNDER REVISION)
2. THE FOLLOWING CHANGES HAVE BEEN APPROVED AND ARE EFFECTIVE
IMMEDIATELY UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED:
A. FOR RANKS E7 THRU E9 THE COLLAR DEVICES SHALL BE WORN ON THE
TRENCH COAT IN THE SAME MANNER AS THE WINDBREAKER. E4 THRU E6 SHALL
WEAR NO RANK ON OUTERWEAR EXCEPT FOR THE ALL WEATHER PARKA.
B. GUIDANCE ON ELECTRONIC DEVICES USE WHILE IN UNIFORM: WHEN
WALKING, MEMBERS SHALL NOT SMOKE, EAT, DRINK, OR KEEP HANDS IN
POCKETS. USE OF CELL PHONES, HAND HELD AND OTHER ELECTRONIC DEVICES
IS DISCOURAGED, ALTHOUGH LIMITED USE FOR OFFICIAL BUSINESS IS
AUTHORIZED. IF DEEMED NECESSARY TO RE-EMPHASIZE AND ENCOURAGE
PROFESSIONALISM ABOARD THEIR UNITS, COMMANDS ARE AUTHORIZED TO
IMPLEMENT MORE RESTRICTIVE GUIDELINES REGARDING USE OF PERSONAL
ELECTRONIC DEVICES IN UNIFORM.
C. THE BASIC RIGGERS BELT (NSN: 8415-01-526-5551) IS AUTHORIZED AS
AN OPTIONAL ITEM WITH THE ODU ONLY. THE BELT IS A BLACK NYLON
FABRIC THAT MEASURES 1 3/4 INCHES WIDE. THE BASIC RIGGERS BELT
COMES IN ONE SIZE. THE BITTER END SHALL EXTEND 2-4 INCHES PAST THE
BELT BUCKLE ON THE WEARERS LEFT.
D. THE PRESCRIBING AUTHORITY IN REF (A) IS CLARIFIED TO READ AS:
DISTRICT COMMANDERS PRESCRIBE THE UNIFORM FOR THE SEASON, DAY, OR
SPECIAL OCCASION FOR PERSONNEL WITHIN THE GEOGRAPHIC LIMITS OF
THEIR DISTRICT, WITH THE EXCEPTIONS LISTED BELOW [AS OUTLINED IN
1.B.1 IN REF (A)]. COMMANDS WITHIN THE DISTRICT MAY AMEND THE
DISTRICTS STANDARD UNIFORM OF THE DAY ONLY WITH PRIOR APPROVAL OF
THE APPROPRIATE DISTRICT PROGRAM MANAGER, AND THEN ONLY WHEN
NECESSARY DUE TO SHORT-TERM LOCAL VARIATIONS IN WEATHER OR CLIMATE.
E. THE UNIFORM DISPOSAL POLICY IS CHANGED SO THAT: OBSOLETE, WORN,
DAMAGED, OR UNWANTED UNIFORM ITEMS SHALL BE DISPOSED OF PROPERLY TO
ENSURE THEY DO NOT BECOME AVAILABLE TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC. ANY
MARKINGS OR IDENTIFICATION SEWN ONTO THE UNIFORM WHICH WOULD
IDENTIFY IT AS BELONGING TO AN INDIVIDUAL OR AS A U.S. COAST GUARD
UNIFORM SHALL BE REMOVED BEFORE DISPOSAL. THE UNIFORM ITEM SHALL BE
RENDERED UNSERVICEABLE BY BURNING, TEARING, CUTTING, ETC. UNIFORM
ITEMS SHALL NOT BE MERELY THROWN IN THE TRASH WITHOUT TAKING SUCH
PRECAUTIONS FIRST. IN ADDITION, UNIFORM ITEMS SHALL NOT BE DONATED
TO RELIEF AGENCIES (GOODWILL, THE SALVATION ARMY, ETC.), SOLD TO
RETAIL OR CONSIGNMENT STORES FOR FURTHER RESALE TO THE PUBLIC, NOR
PROVIDED TO ANY ORGANIZATION, FOR ANY PURPOSES, REGARDLESS OF
WHETHER THE INTENT IS NOBLE.
F. REF (B) WILL BE CHANGED TO READ: RED SHIRTS ARE NO LONGER
AUTHORIZED FOR TRAINING TEAMS. FOR IDENTIFICATION PURPOSES TRAINING
TEAMS ARE AUTHORIZED WEAR OF RED SAFETY VESTS.
G. ADD TO REF (A) STANDARDIZE MANNER OF WEAR FOR WOMEN THAT WEAR A
COMBINATION OF MENS AND WOMENS SHIRT AND TROUSERS TO READ AS
FOLLOWS: WHEN A SHIRT AND TROUSERS COMBINATION OF DIFFERENT SEXES
IS WORN, A SHIRT, TROUSERS AND FLY ALIGNMENT IS UNACHIEVABLE.
HOWEVER, IN ALL CASES, THE NON-TAB EDGE OF THE BELT MUST ALIGN WITH
THE FLY.
H. EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY THE DRESS SKIRT IS AN OPTIONAL ITEM. THE
DRESS SKIRT WILL BE REMOVED FROM FY08 REQUIRED ITEM LIST FOR
FEMALES. FEMALE CLOTHING MAINTENANCE ALLOWANCE WILL BE ADJUSTED IN
FY08.
I. WEARING OF RELIGIOUS HEADGEAR WHILE IN UNIFORM UNDER THE
FOLLOWING GUIDANCE: MUST BE BLACK OR MATCH THE HAIR COLOR OF THE
WEARER, IT MUST BE OF A STYLE AND SIZE THAT IT CAN BE COMPLETELY
COVERED BY, AND NOT INTERFERE WITH, THE WEARING OR APPEARANCE OF
ANY UNIFORM MILITARY HEADGEAR, WHETHER OR NOT THE UNIFORM HEADGEAR
IS BEING WORN. IT CANNOT INTERFERE WITH THE PROPER WEAR OR
FUNCTIONING OF PROTECTIVE CLOTHING OR EQUIPMENT. IT CANNOT BEAR ANY
WRITING, SYMBOLS OR PICTURES, INCLUDING WRITING OR IMAGES WOVEN
INTO THE FABRIC OR THE HEADGEAR AND IT SHALL NOT BE WORN IN PLACE
OF UNIFORM MILITARY UNIFORM HEADGEAR WHEN SUCH UNIFORM HEADGEAR IS
REQUIRED IN ACCORDANCE WITH CURRENT U.S. COAST GUARD UNIFORM
REGULATIONS.
J. THE BOONIE HAT IS AUTHORIZED AS ORGANIZATIONAL CLOTHING FOR THE
OPERATIONAL ENVIRONMENT ONLY, NOT TO BE WORN OFF BASE, WHEN
INTERACTING WITH THE PUBLIC, OR BY LAW ENFORCEMENT OR BOARDING TEAM
MEMBERS. ONLY SEW ON RANK INSIGNIA ARE AUTHORIZED PLACED IN THE
CENTER OF THE FRONT SECTION.
3. THE FOLLOWING ITEMS WERE APPROVED FOR FURTHER DEVELOPMENT AND
FUNDING, HOWEVER, ITEMS ARE NOT APPROVED FOR IMPLEMENTATION EXCEPT
AS NOTED:
A. THE LENGTH OF THE WOMENS TROPICAL BLUE LONG SHIRT WILL BE
EXTENDED. THE SHIRT IS TO BE LENGTHENED WITH TAILS ADDED TO
INCREASE TUCKABILITY. THE MENS SHIRT IS STILL AUTHORIZED FOR WOMENS
WEAR UNTIL A NEW DESIGN IS COMPLETED.
B. ALL ORGANIZATIONAL UNIFORM RELATED ITEMS (FROM OTHER PROGRAMS)
ARE CONSOLIDATED INTO THE UNIFORM REGULATIONS MANUAL.
C. STANDARD OPTIONAL PHYSICAL TRAINING (PT) CLOTHING WILL BE
DEVELOPED AND AVAILABLE THROUGH UNIFORM DISTRIBUTION CENTER (UDC).
PT CLOTHING WILL CONSIST OF A WICKABLE ASH GRAY TOP WITH NAVY BLUE
U.S. COAST GUARD LETTERING, AND MESH-STYLE NAVY BLUE BOTTOMS.
(ATHLETIC JACKETS AND EXERCISE PANTS WILL BE OPTIONAL).
D. THE REQUEST FOR AN UN-TUCKED VERSION ODU HAS BEEN HEARD LOUD
AND CLEAR AND HAS BEEN APPROVED. THE CLOTHING DESIGN AND TECHNICAL
OFFICE (CDTO) AND UNIFORM PROGRAM ARE CURRENTLY IN THE PROCESS OF
PUTTING THE FINISHING TOUCHES ON A PROTOTYPE UNIFORM TO FULLY MEET
U.S. COAST GUARD NEEDS. THIS INCLUDES INTRODUCTION OF A NEW FABRIC
FOR THE ODU. THE FABRIC WILL HAVE ENHANCED OIL AND LUBRICANT
RESISTANCE, COLORFASTNESS, AND WRINKLE RESISTANCE. THE UNTUCKED ODU
WILL BE INCORPORATED INTO OUR UNIFORM INVENTORY ONCE FINAL DESIGN
IS COMPLETE, SUFFICIENT INVENTORY IS ON HAND AND THE CURRENT ODU
STOCK IS REDUCED TO A MORE MANAGEABLE LEVEL. THE CURRENT ODU IS A
GENERAL PURPOSE UNIFORM INTENDED FOR WEAR WHERE A DRESS UNIFORM IS
NOT REQUIRED. BECAUSE OF ITS INCREASING VERSATILITY, E.G., WEAR IN
SOME OFFICE SETTINGS, IT IS IMPERATIVE THAT THE ODU PROJECTS A
SHARP MILITARY APPEARANCE AT ALL TIMES. AS A RESULT, A SEPARATE
ALCOAST WILL BE ISSUED TO ADDRESS ODU CARE AND WEAR POLICY.
E. WASH AND WEAR DRESS TROUSERS ARE BEING DEVELOPED FOR USE WITH
THE TROPICAL BLUE LONG UNIFORM ONLY. THE WASH AND WEAR TROUSERS
WILL NOT BE AUTHORIZED WITH THE SERVICE DRESS BLUE UNIFORM OR THE
WINTER DRESS UNIFORM DUE TO FABRIC DIFFERENCES.
F. THE WOMENS DRESS TROUSERS ARE BEING REDESIGNED TO A NEW FLAT
FRONT VERSION.
G. MORE RESEARCH IS REQUIRED BEFORE A WICKABLE T-SHIRT CAN BE
AUTHORIZED WITH THE ODU.
H. ONCE AN OPTIONAL WINTER DRESS COAT IS READY FOR IMPLEMENTATION
INSTRUCTIONS WILL BE FORWARDED ON WEAR AND PLACEMENT OF RANK
INSIGNIAS.
4. THE FOLLOWING UNIFORM BOARD ITEMS WERE REVIEWED AND DISAPPROVED:
A. REMOVAL OF THE BUTTON FLAPS (PLACKETS) ON THE WOMENS TROPICAL
BLUE LONG SHIRT.
B. ALLOWING DIRECT EMBROIDERY ON THE OPERATIONAL DRESS UNIFORM
(ODU).
C. STANDARDIZING PLACEMENT OF COLLAR DEVICES FOR ALL SHIRTS.
D. ALLOWING E-7 THRU E-9 GARRISON INSIGNIA TO BE WORN ON THE BALL
CAP.
E. CHANGING ODU BELT ALIGNMENT TO SAME AS THE BRASS BUCKLE.
F. ELIMINATION OF THE WOMENS PONY TAIL.
G. REMOVAL OF THE VELCRO ON THE ODU.
H. WEARING OF THE AIR FORCE FEMALE SHIRT.
I. WEARING THE TRENCH COAT WITH THE ODU.
J. WEARING OF QUALIFICATION INSIGNIA EARNED PRIOR TO ENLISTING IN
THE U.S. COAST GUARD.
K. WEARING U. S. FLAG ON THE ODU.
L. WEARING ODU TROUSERS WITH COOK WHITES.
M. WEARING FEMALE TAB TIE WITH WINTER DRESS BLUE UNIFORM.
N. MANUFACTURING WOMENS SERVICE DRESS BLUE COAT WITH A DARTED
WAIST.
O. WEARING MINI DEVICES ON BACK OF BALL CAPS.
P. WEARING GARRISON CAP WITH ODU.
Q. ADOPTION OF ENLISTED SHOULDER BOARDS.
R. ELIMINATING COMBINATION CAPS FOR E6 AND BELOW.
S. ISSUANCE OF MENS COMBINATION CAPS TO WOMEN.
T. ADOPTION OF AN EIGHT POINT COVER.
U. CONVERTING ALL NON-RATE STRIPES TO WHITE.
5. THE ABOVE ITEMS WERE RESEARCHED AND DEBATED AT GREAT LENGTH. THE
UNIFORM BOARD MEETS AT LEAST ANNUALLY TO DISCUSS NEW
RECOMMENDATIONS AND INITIATIVES. THE FOLLOWING MEMBERS ARE
RECOGNIZED FOR THEIR HARD WORK AND DEDICATION FOR MAKING THIS LONG
OVERDUE UNIFORM BOARD A SUCCESS: CDR LAURIE MOSIER, LCDR TIFFANY
ST. GEORGE, MCPO FRANCIS JENNINGS, MCPO KEVIN ISHERWOOD, MCPO ANN
TUBBS, CPO LYNN FABBO, CPO CRYSTAL SPARKS, MR. STEVE MINUTOLO, CAPT
WAYNE MUILENBURG, MR. CAROL BREWTON, MR. JOE DEBLASE, MR. BILL
BROADAWAY, CWO DAVID MCLOUGLIN, AND CWO TARVIN GREENE.
6. ALL MEMBERS OF THE U.S. COAST GUARD ARE ENCOURAGED TO SUBMIT
SUGGESTIONS AND RECOMMENDATIONS TO COMMANDANT
(CG-1221), THRU THE CHAIN OF COMMAND AND THEIR PROGRAM MANAGER.
7. AREA AND DISTRICT COMMANDERS, COMMANDERS, MAINTENANCE AND
LOGISTICS COMMANDS, SECTOR COMMANDERS, COMMANDING OFFICERS OF
HEADQUARTERS UNITS, ASSISTANT COMMANDANTS FOR DIRECTORATES, CHIEF
COUNSEL, AND SPECIAL STAFF OFFICES AT HEADQUARTERS, SHALL ENSURE
THE WIDEST DISSEMINATION OF THIS ALCOAST.
8. FOR QUESTIONS CONTACT CWO GREENE AT (202)475-5369.
9. INTERNET RELEASED AUTHORIZED.
10. RELEASED BY CLIFFORD I. PEARSON, ASSISTANT COMMANDANT FOR HUMAN
RESOURCES.
BT
NNNN

[DCCS Brett Wickett]

The only one that really surprised me was the rejection of the 8 point cover. Everything I heard had good reviews of that. Oh well.

[BMCS Mike Ellis]

One clarification is needed that I can see.
The ALCOAST states that the riggers belt comes in one size, and gives the stock number for size 52. However, the UDC website lists several sizes. There's also no picture for use in determining if the myriad of belts currently worn meet the spec, so I'm going to order one and see.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

4. THE FOLLOWING UNIFORM BOARD ITEMS WERE REVIEWED AND DISAPPROVED:

D. ALLOWING E-7 THRU E-9 GARRISON INSIGNIA TO BE WORN ON THE BALL CAP.



I wonder why this one was disapproved? Any insight would be appreciated.

[ITC Matthew Altieri]

I wonder why this one was disapproved? Any insight would be appreciated.

I'm going to take a wild guess on this one and say that the board wanted to
maintain some uniformity on the size of the ballcap devices.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

I'm going to take a wild guess on this one and say that the board wanted to
maintain some uniformity on the size of the ballcap devices.

Here's what the originator of the request submitted for recommendation:

AGENDA ITEM: # 41-19
Wear E7-E9 Garrison Insignia on Ball Cap

Proposal: Allow the wearing of E7-E9 Garrison Cap insignia on the ball cap.

Suggester’s Discussion: The E7-E9 Garrison Cap insignia was designed for high visibility. Members work hard to attain the rank of Chief, and bigger insignia on the cap that is most frequently worn is fitting. For uniformity, appearance, and high visibility, the E7-E9 Garrison Insignia should be worn on both the Garrison and the Unit Ball Cap.

Background: Garrison Cap insignia is quite a bit bigger than standard ball cap insignia (which is the same as collar insignia).

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I talked to a board member about this particular request. It was the opinion of the board that there was no "Visibility" issue with the size of the insignia on the ball cap.

I have to say that I'm a little surprised...I thought this would be approved.

[BMC Ken Gouge]

I am more disappointed that we can't wear the combo cover in ODU's

[HSC Chris Fly]

One clarification is needed that I can see.
The ALCOAST states that the riggers belt comes in one size, and gives the stock number for size 52. However, the UDC website lists several sizes. There's also no picture for use in determining if the myriad of belts currently worn meet the spec, so I'm going to order one and see.

I actually called the UDC this morning to order a couple of the belts, they said the ALCOAST is incorrect there are various sizes. I was told to order the size 6" longer than my waist size, I'm guessing that's so you can have the required 2-4" past the buckle.

BTW- I'm really glad they disapproved the 8 point hat, I really like my ballcap. I didn't really want to look like the Marines/Army/Swat.

Chris

[PACS Steve Carleton]

2 J. THE BOONIE HAT IS AUTHORIZED AS ORGANIZATIONAL CLOTHING FOR THE OPERATIONAL ENVIRONMENT ONLY, NOT TO BE WORN OFF BASE, WHEN
INTERACTING WITH THE PUBLIC, OR BY LAW ENFORCEMENT OR BOARDING TEAM MEMBERS. ONLY SEW ON RANK INSIGNIA ARE AUTHORIZED PLACED IN THE CENTER OF THE FRONT SECTION.

With those kind of restrictions, I guess we can wear them in our sleep.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

2 J. THE BOONIE HAT IS AUTHORIZED AS ORGANIZATIONAL CLOTHING FOR THE OPERATIONAL ENVIRONMENT ONLY, NOT TO BE WORN OFF BASE, WHEN
INTERACTING WITH THE PUBLIC, OR BY LAW ENFORCEMENT OR BOARDING TEAM MEMBERS. ONLY SEW ON RANK INSIGNIA ARE AUTHORIZED PLACED IN THE CENTER OF THE FRONT SECTION.

With those kind of restrictions, I guess we can wear them in our sleep.

Steve...you can wear it when you're in the boonies.

[HSC Chris Fly]

Steve...you can wear it when you're in the boonies.

Kodiak? Astoria? :D

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

Kennewick? Sounds like a good idea to me.

[MSTCS Jerald P. Motyka]

2 J. THE BOONIE HAT IS AUTHORIZED AS ORGANIZATIONAL CLOTHING FOR THE OPERATIONAL ENVIRONMENT ONLY, NOT TO BE WORN OFF BASE, WHEN
INTERACTING WITH THE PUBLIC, OR BY LAW ENFORCEMENT OR BOARDING TEAM MEMBERS. ONLY SEW ON RANK INSIGNIA ARE AUTHORIZED PLACED IN THE CENTER OF THE FRONT SECTION.

With those kind of restrictions, I guess we can wear them in our sleep.
Steve, they are intended for TACLETS and PSU's when they are out in the woods/jungle/desert... not for you and I to wear to 7/11 or BM3 Snuffy on a DUI boarding.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Steve, they are intended for TACLETS and PSU's when they are out in the woods/jungle/desert... not for you and I to wear to 7/11 or BM3 Snuffy on a DUI boarding.

Re-read the message as it was released -- they can't be worn off base, and the TACLETs can't wear them when engaged in a law enforcement operation.

I can see the PSUs wearing them with the Desert or Woodland Camouflage when deployed, but the message as released doesn't stipulate that. If that is the intent then put it in there to avoid confusion so that units are not running out to purchase a dark blue version of the boonie hat for wear with the ODUs.

[BMCS Dave Considine]

The Boonie is a great alternative to the ball cap when it is raining, keeps you much drier and prolongs the life of the ballcap. When you go to do a boarding, take off the boonie and put on the ballcap. They are worth having in your SAR bag. Also good in very sunny weather to protect against sunburn etc.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

It definitely leaves a lot for interpretation. In my mind, if you're u/w on a small boat you're interacting with the public...so, you couldn't wear it. I guess you could put in on...take it offf...put it on...take it off.

I don't know, I guess I would just leave it for the PSU types to wear in the field.

[ETC Pat Kaschube]

I could see it being very handy for the lookouts on the cutters in the Caribean or of South America, Mexico. They breath better than the ball caps as well so are cooler.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

OK I will show my ignorance, what the heck is an 8 point hat :confused: ?

[SKC Ronald Brumble]

That's what I was wondering. For that matter, what is the Boonie hat. Is that a new name for the stocking cap/watch cap?

How long till we are not allowed to wear the Windbreaker with our ODU? Any takers?

[HSC Chris Fly]

The 8 point hat is like what the Marines or Army wears. The Bonnie hat is what was worn in Vietnam a lot, it's round, kinda floppy. At least as far as I know, that's what they are.
Chris

[PACS Steve Carleton]

I could see it being very handy for the lookouts on the cutters in the Caribean or of South America, Mexico. They breath better than the ball caps as well so are cooler.


Just don't be seen by the public.

[ETC Pat Kaschube]

Just don't be seen by the public.

Well that doesn't happen that often if you are a lookout on a 378 off the coast. Common sense applies. When we came up on a vessel a general pipe was made to ensure everyone topside had their ODU blouse on as well as covers.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

I still dont know what an eight point hat is. Since I am mostly redneck I could only deduce it is a hot worn by a whitetail sporting eight points................

[BMCS Dave Considine]

Burt

Here you go, The Navy eight point hat. The PSU's wear them now

Added the Boonie hat as well

Dave

[BMCS Burt Ford]

thanks Dave. Pictures are good for this BMCS!

[FSC Jayare Parker (Ret)]

Burt,
I was wondering how we were going to draw you a picture (with crayons) of the hat for you on this computer so you would know what an 8 point hat looks like. :D

Good thing Dave hooked you up with one of them there digital pics for you to look at. ;)

Jayare

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

Can you only get that boonie in a cotton or cotton blend? It would be nice in a gore-tex type for the rainy season.

[BMCS Dave Considine]

I imagine the R&S manual will be updated to include an approved version. The one weused is the Ripstop 50% cotton, 50%nylon, NSN 9701-00-935-6690 called Hat, SUn, Hot weather.

I do know the Outdoor Reserach sells a hat similar to the Beenie that is waterproof, they call it a sombrero, it has the OR logo on it though.

Outdoor Research hat (http://www.orgear.com/home/style/home/headware/rain_hats/82130)

[MCPO Francis Jennings]

AGENDA ITEM: # 41-19
Wear E7-E9 Garrison Insignia on Ball Cap

I talked to a board member about this particular request. It was the opinion of the board that there was no "Visibility" issue with the size of the insignia on the ball cap. I have to say that I'm a little surprised...I thought this would be approved.

I was always in favor of the "medium sized" anchor for the ball cap. I thought it showed the anchor a little better. But the issue was seeing the stars as they'd blend in with the embroidered text. With garrison cap insignia properly placed, it was difficult to see the one or two stars. So you're correct, there was no "visibility issue" with the anchor itself. And although I like the larger insignia, the right thing to do was not create another problem.

Give it an objective try, like I did.

Frank
board member
(I'll get to the 8-point cover later)

[HSC Chris Fly]

I posted pictures of the newly authorized ODU belt the UDC sent me, I don't think a lot of people will be very happy! The new belt doesn't look like anything I've seen people wearing. The link is here:
http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5431969686/m/4600092701001

Chris

[BMC Mark D. Emerson]

The belt they showed is the one I currently wear and it is fine. If you are going by what the UDC carries they only carry the large OIC pins. The MSST Belt is authorized the way I read the message.

[HSC Chris Fly]

BMC,
I just talked to MC Isherwood, the PACAREA Master Chief, and he said the belt I posted (not sure which one you meant) and of course the original belt are the only ones authorized. The Blackhawk riggers belt is not authorized unless you are in full tactical gear for a mission. You can check it out on his website also.
Chris

[BMCS Dave Considine]

I posted pictures of the newly authorized ODU belt the UDC sent me, I don't think a lot of people will be very happy! The new belt doesn't look like anything I've seen people wearing. The link is here:
http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5431969686/m/4600092701001

Chris

Geez Chris - I had promised myself I wouldn't go back to Fred's Place anymore, didn't read the link and BAM there I am. Of course there's a Wray post right under the picture. There goes my New Years Resolution!

[HSC Chris Fly]

Sorry Senior, I'd rather use up their bandwidth with the pictures than here! :D
Chris

[BMC Mark D. Emerson]

Roger that on the belt.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Geez Chris - I had promised myself I wouldn't go back to Fred's Place anymore, didn't read the link and BAM there I am. Of course there's a Wray post right under the picture. There goes my New Years Resolution!

Dave, I hope I haven't ruined your entire year.. ;)

Wray.... :cool:

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Alcoast 054/07
Comdtnote 1020
Subj: Uniform Board No. 42
A. Uniform Regulations Manual, Comdtinst M1020.6e
1. The Office Of Military Personnel (cg-122) Anticipates Convening
The Next Uniform Board Ooa 22 May 2007.
2. As Per Ref. A, The Voting Members Of Uniform Board Consists Of
Representatives From Cg-3 (formerly G-r), Cg-3p (formerly G-p), And
Cg-4 Staffs, The Master Chief Petty Officer Of The Coast Guard
Office, The Gender Policy Advisor, Each Area, Training Center Cape
May, And The Cg Academy Or Leadership Development Center.
3. Input From Field Units Is Strongly Encouraged And Any Suggestions
Or Recommendations Must Be Sent To Commandant (cg-1221) Thru The
Chain Of Command, Including Hq Program Managers, To Arrive Nlt 1
April.
4. Internet Release Authorized.
5. Capt M.c. Cosenza, Acting Director Of Personnel Management, Sends.
Bt
Nnnn

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

I hope they can do better at holding uniform boards, posting the resutls, and most importantly, up-dating the manual...

Wray... :cool:

[CWO Dana Lewis (QMC) (Ret)]

I'm starting the process of a recommended change to the Uniform Board. I was wondering if anyone has done this before. If so, please provide any feedback/advise that you might have. It seems to be easy enough to do, but am always looking for input. Thanks.

I'm recommending a change to the enlisted insignia size for ball caps and parkas for E-7 and above. I think that we should be wearing the garrison cap size insignia on ball caps and on the parka. I figure I'll run it up the change and see what happens.

New comer butting in, Senior Chief, but maybe a bit of ammo to start the wheels churning. For what it is worth, years ago the miniature cap device was worn on ball caps, But I digress.

The miniature version of the CPO cap device came about in 1944 or so for the USN, and as the CG followed USN uniform regs, it wasn't long before the CG miniature version showed up for wear on the garrison cap. In 1955 the first ball caps were authorized for the seabag, and from Navy records I could find, the miniature size device was worn by Chiefs and Officers. An is still today as in Navy uniform regs.

Collar devices weren't authorized for Chiefs until about 1959, and E-8/9 devices until about 1961.

Somewhere I'd bet about 20 years ago or so, in a change to uniform regs someone lost a bit in the translation between "miniature" and "collar", and collar device sizes got thrown onto the ball cap.

Perhaps the tack to take on submitting a change would be, " have existing miniature cap devices re-approved for wear on caps. "O" types already are wearing grade devices on the collar, is it needed on the noggin also. That is what the miniature cap device eagle is for.

Chiefs already have a miniature cap device for wear on caps.

Petty officers are wearing grade devices on the collars, bit of overkill for the noggin also.

The Seamen and Firemen are the only ones wearing a cap device, the CG "medallion" on the cap.

May be a bit disjointed, but take the collar devices off the cap and return them to the collar where they were originally intended to be..

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Not sure if this has made the rounds via the CPO Network -- here is a link to photos of the Un-tucked ODU Wear Test.

http://www.uscg.mil/comdt/mcpocg/uniform/untuck_ODU/default.asp

The photos are dificult to see, but there is a black CG Shield on the right breast poscket and also on the sleeve roll.

Word I have is that some in the GB network are are part of the wear test. I'll reserve judgement until I see it in person.

[BMCS Mike Ellis]

No pockets on the bottom of the blouse? Nicest set of pajamas I've ever seen!

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

When I see that stuff it makes me feel real glad that I have retired...

Wray... :cool:

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Looks like what we have now...just untucked. They look good to me, I can't wait until we get them.

[BMCS Eric Guerette]

We got measured last week for the test. I'll let you know how it looks once they are here, begining of June.
The last test had an embroidered CG emblem on the chest pocket. Not many people liked it. I don't know if it will be the same this time.

[HSC Chris Fly]

Personally I think untucked looks sloppy.... I loved the fact that with the ODUs we went to a much more military looking uniform AND it was neat in appearance because it was tucked in. I'll reserve my final judgement until I see the final product on the streets, but in my opinion this is just another way that we are trying to be like everyone else. Whatever happened to the Coast Guard being a unique service? That's one of the reasons I joined, that and I love the ball caps! :D

Chris

[MSTC Shad Hudgins]

I like the untucked idea because it looks much more like a miliary uniform, i.e. BDUs. However, without the pockets, it looks more like the maternity ODU that is currently authorized. Its really going to look that way for our members are pushing maximum density in the midsection!:D

[YNCM Doug Squires (Ret)]

The Master Chief Petty Officer of the Coast Guard was at the MLC here in Norfolk today and wearing the Test BDUs. He looks super in them!

Embroidery on the rolled up sleeve and the breast pocket.

Looked good to me.

[HSC Chris Fly]

So are they going to put pockets on the bottom of the blouse? I thought that was the idea when it was redesigned? I didn't really notice in the pictures until I took a second look, now it looks even worse than I first thought!

[BMC Ralph Williams]

I think it looks a heck of lot better than the tucked in version.

Ralph

[DCCS Brett Wickett]

Let me think about this a minute, seal of the bottom of both legs, seal off both arms, seal off the waist by tucking them in and then go outside and work during the summer. Yep, I'm done thinking, I will take any version of an untucked blouse.

[SKC Ronald Brumble]

I like them. I have always thought our working/undress uniforms were lacking compared to other services. The ODU was a giant step in the right direction but fell short with the tucking in of the blouse/top. Untucked is much better IMO.

For those that think it is sloppy. Have you been to an Army or Air Force base. I think they look sharp. Also, when working if you are able, taking the top off to keep it clean is easier since it is not tucked. Putting it back on is simpler as you don't have to worry about all that tucking.

I also can't wait to make the switch.

[BMC Gene Daigle]

I like the pics of the new untucked version. I am just a little sceptical about not having the pockets like was previously discussed. One other issue I thought was being talked about was a "short sleeve" version, still looking like the sleeves were rolled up, but uniform in looks none the less. I never have a problem making my uniform look good by rolling them up and using the iron the press it flat, and looking more professional. But many out there in the field have no clue, even after a fews years or wearing the uniform.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

I like the untucked idea because it looks much more like a miliary uniform, i.e. BDUs. However, without the pockets, it looks more like the maternity ODU that is currently authorized. Its really going to look that way for our members are pushing maximum density in the midsection!:D

Shad,

I sent the link to my staff and my First Class said the same thing.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Alcoast 223/07
COMDTNOTE 1020
Subj: Operational Dress Uniform (ODU) Care And Wear Policy
A. Comdt Cogard Washington Dc 091300z Aug 04/alcoast 380/04
B. Comdt Cogard Washington Dc 251747z May 06/alcoast 300/06
C. Uniform Regulations, Comdtinst M1020.6 (series)
1. Refs A And B Are Cancelled.
2. This Alcoast Clarifies The Proper Wear Of The Odu. The Odu Is A
General Purpose Everyday Uniform That Is Intended For Wear In Any
Situation That Does Not Require A Dress Uniform. In Addition, Since
This Uniform May Be Worn In Many Operational Situations, And In
Order To Maintain Safety And Consistency In Appearance, Metal
Devices Or Attachments Will No Longer Be Authorized.
3. Effective Immediately, The Following Shall Apply To The Odu:
A. When Washing, Ensure That All Velcro Closures Are Fastened To
Minimize Collection Of Lint And Foreign Matter.
B. The Odu Shall Be Ironed Without Military Creases. In Addition,
Collars, Lapels, Sleeves, And Pockets On Both The Odu Top And
Trousers Shall Lay Flat. Great Care Must Be Taken When Ironing The
Odu. Excessive Heat, Starching, And Repeated Sharp Creasing Can
Result In Whitening And/or Finish Damage. Iron The Uniform Inside
Out To Minimize Gloss Or Shine.
C. The Odu Uniform Will Be Worn With 8 Inch Safety Boots, Well-
Blackened And When Worn In An Office Boots Shall Be Polished To A
Shine. Tuck Away Excess Laces So They Can Not Be Seen.
D. The Odu Trousers Shall Be Bloused, With Either Velcro Or Hook
Type Elastic Bands, Between The Second And Third Boot Eyelet.
Cargo Pockets May Be Used, But Items Stowed Shall Not Take Away
From A Smart Military Appearance.
E. The Odu T-shirt Shall Be In Good Condition With No Tears Or
Stains. Due To Health And Safety Issues, More Research Is Required
Before A Wickable T-shirt Is Authorized For Wear With The Odu.
F. All Accessories Shall Be In Good Repair And Worn As Follows:
1. After 15 July 2007, All Accessories Worn On The Odu Shall
Be Embroidered.
2. Collar Rank And Specialty Insignia Can Be Metal (standard
Until 15 July 2007) Or Embroidered (currently Optional, Becoming
Standard After 15 July 2007). No Mixing Of Styles Is Authorized.
Insignia Shall Not Be Scratched, Bent, Torn Or Disfigured In Any
Way. All Collar Rank Insignias, With Exception Of Embroidered O3
And O6, Shall Be Placed On The Imaginary Line Bisecting The Angle
Of The Collar With The Base Of The Insignia (not The Embroidered
Patch) Approx 1 1/8 Inch From Collar Point. Due To Their Horizontal
Format, Embroidered O3 And O6 Rank Insignia Shall Be Placed 1 1/2
Inches From The Point.
3. Qualification Insignia Shall Be Centered Directly Above The
U.s. Coast Guard Nametape On The Wearers Left Hand Pocket. Only
One Embroidered Qualification Insignia Is Authorized. Metal
Insignias Are Not Authorized. Embroidered Insignia Shall Be The
Same Size As The Metal Insignia, Centered On A Tape The Full Width
Of The Pocket. The Tape Shall Not Exceed The Width Of The Pocket.
Temporary Qualification Insignias Shall Not Be Worn On The Odu.
4. Incumbent Cos And Oics Are Authorized To Wear The
Embroidered Command Ashore Or Afloat Devices Centered Directly
Above The Members Nametape On The Wearers Right Hand Pocket. Metal
Devices Are Not Authorized. Embroidered Devices Shall Be The Same
Size As The Metal Insignia, Centered On The Pocket.
5. Since These Positions Are Integral To The Command Cadre,
Incumbent Gold And Silver Badge Command Chiefs Are Authorized To
Wear Their Respective Badges (embroidered Only) On The Odu. Mens
Badges Shall Be Worn Centered On The Wearers Left Pocket. Womens
Badges Shall Be Worn Above The Name Tape Of The Right Pocket.
G. The Buckle And Belt Tip Of The Standard 1 1/4 Inch Black Odu
Belt Must Not Be Chipped Or Discolored. The Bitter End Shall
Extend 2-4 Inches Past The Belt Buckle On The Wearers Left.
H. The Basic Riggers Belt (nsn: 8415-01-526-5551), Also Know As
The Battle Dress Uniform (bdu) Belt, Can Be Purchased Thru The Udc
And May Be Worn As An Optional Item On The Odu. This Belt Is A 1
3/4 Inch Black Nylon Belt. When Worn, The Bitter End Shall Extend
2-4 Inches Past The Belt Buckle On The Wearers Left. (this Will
Require The Belt Be Passed Through The Belt Loops From The Right,
The Opposite Of Other Mens Belts). The Basic Riggers Belt Comes In
One Length And Needs To Be Cut To Size. To Determine The Correct
Belt Length, Lace The Belt Through Belt Loops, Pass It Behind The
Belt Bar, Then Feed It Back Through And Over The Belt Bar. Finally,
Pull To Secure. Next, Mark The Belt So That No More Than 4 Inches
Extend Past The Buckle. Make A Straight Cut Along This Mark. Singe
The Bitter End To Avoid Unraveling. The "black Hawk" Riggers Belt
Is Not Authorized For General Wear, But May Be Worn As
Organizational Equipment During Tactical Missions.
I. The Standard Or Unit Ball Cap Shall Be Well-formed And In Good
Condition With No Soiling, Fading Or Tears, Nor Will It Contain Any
Devices Or Pins Beyond The Collar Insignia Or Cg Shield As
Appropriate For Rank. Also, No Additional Writing On Either The
Front Or Rear Of The Cap Is Authorized.
4. Manner Of Wear: The Odu Is Not A Liberty Uniform And Shall Not
Be Worn As A Substitute For Coveralls. However, It Can Be Worn
During The Following Authorized Circumstances:
A. While Traveling In Government Vehicles, Vessels, Aircraft, On
Orders In A Commercial Conveyance, Or While Traveling On Orders In
A Foreign Country (if Approved By The U.s. Embassy).
B. While Commuting, To Include Mass Transit, During Informal Off
Base Lunches, Visits To Dod Facilities Or For Short Stops In
Convenience Or Retail Stores.
C. While In An Educational Environment At Other Dod Agencies (as
Directed By Their Commanding Officer).
D. The Odu Top Is An Integral Part Of The Uniform. It Shall Only
Be Removed Temporarily, When Working In Excessively Hot Conditions
Out Of The Public Eye.
E. The Odu Is Authorized For Office Wear At The Commanding
Officers Discretion.
5. The Odu Hot Weather Version Is Optional And Or Organizational
Depending On Commands Direction. The Odu Hot Weather Uniform May Be
Authorized By The Area, District, Or Mlc Commander When Extreme
Work Environments Require It. This Prescribing Authority Can Not Be
Delegated. Commands Shall Be Judicious When Employing This Option
To Ensure A Professional Appearance. The Hot Weather Uniform Is
Not Authorized For Routine Wear In The Office. It Is Not
Authorized For Wear While Commuting To And From Work Or Any Other
Public Setting.
The Hot Weather Uniform Consists Of The Following Items:
A. Odu Top Iaw Paragraphs 1-3 Above.
B. Odu Shorts (odu Trousers Hemmed At The Knee Or 1 Inch Above
The Knee) Worn With Either The Standard Odu Or Optional Riggers
Belt. Commercially Procured Shorts Are Not Currently Authorized.
C. Odu T-shirt.
D. Black Crew Length Socks.
E. Low Top Safety Shoes Must Comply With Ansi Z41-1999.
F. Commercial Odu Shorts Are Not Organizational Clothing And Can
Not Be Purchased With Unit Funds.
6. When Wearing The Maternity Odu: Nametapes, U.s. Coast Guard
Nametape, And Qualification Insignia Are To Be Worn On The
Maternity Odu In The Same Relative Area As On The Standard Odu.
Minor Adjustments In Placement Are Authorized To Prevent Discomfort
And To Present An Orderly And Balanced Appearance.
7. Work Continues On The Untucked Version Of The Odu. This
Version, Which Will Also Have An Enhanced (wrinkle Resistant, Oil
And Fade Resistant) Material Is Still Being Developed, Although
Some Prototypes Have Been Distributed For Initial Testing. A
Service Wide Availability Date Is Still Unknown.
8. All Provisions Of This Alcoast Will Be Incorporated In A Future
Change To Ref C.
9. Internet Release Authorized.
10. Released By Curtis B. Odom, Acting Director Of Personnel
Management.

[BMCS Dave Considine]

I still think the metal collar devices look much better than the sew on type, and more professional. Just ordered the sew on sets from UDC before the rush starts.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Interesting points about the ODU....

The Odu Shall Be Ironed Without Military Creases

The Odu Uniform Will Be Worn With 8 Inch Safety Boots, Well-
Blackened And When Worn In An Office Boots Shall Be Polished To A
Shine.

The Odu Trousers Shall Be Bloused, With Either Velcro Or Hook
Type Elastic Bands, Between The Second And Third Boot Eyelet.

Only One Embroidered Qualification Insignia Is Authorized. Metal
Insignias Are Not Authorized. Embroidered Insignia Shall Be The
Same Size As The Metal Insignia, Centered On A Tape The Full Width
Of The Pocket.

The Standard Or Unit Ball Cap Shall Be Well-formed And In Good
Condition With No Soiling, Fading Or Tears, Nor Will It Contain Any
Devices Or Pins Beyond The Collar Insignia Or Cg Shield As
Appropriate For Rank. Also, .

The Odu Is Not A Liberty Uniform And Shall Not
Be Worn As A Substitute For Coveralls.No Additional Writing On Either The
Front Or Rear Of The Cap Is Authorized


Wray.. :cool:

[HSC Chris Fly]

finally no more sloppy tucking in of the pants in the tops of boots! And I guess this should clear up which riggers belt is authorized, NOT the Back Hawk super MSST one! I don't like the embroidered collar devices though, I like my shiney Anchors!
Chris

[ETC Pat Kaschube]

finally no more sloppy tucking in of the pants in the tops of boots! And I guess this should clear up which riggers belt is authorized, NOT the Back Hawk super MSST one! I don't like the embroidered collar devices though, I like my shiney Anchors!
Chris

When you use the velcro strap it does go into the boot itself. This is how they are worn by the other services I have seen in my area. If they dont go inside the boot then I don't see how the velcro strap could work. I have found the velcro strap provides a much better apearance. You can't even tell that they are in the boot. And you don't have folks walking around all the time pulling their pant legs back down over their boot. The green rubber band sucked. And yes I did order my pants longer

[BMCS Eric Guerette]

It also says between the 2nd and 3rd eye on the boot. That is pretty clear. I made a set of straps from some small bungie cord and a plastic hook 8 years ago when we were testing the first ODU, then called the "two piece coverall". Those straps are still in perfect condition and are tight enough to stay put most of the day. Oh, and I still wear the test ODU because after 8 years the fabric still looks better than my 1 year old ODU.

[MSTCS Jerald P. Motyka]

I thought it was kinda funny that they made it mandatory to wear embroidered CMC badges - considering that THEY DON'T EXIST!!!

At CCTI Rites of Passage today, I asked MCPO Kirk, the Reserve Lantarea Gold Badge, and he said that HQ knows about this, and that Vanguard is "supposed" to have them done in time to fill orders prior to July 16th. Even if they are a couple weeks (a month) late, it'll be alright, in my opinion.

And both Gold as well as Silver Badges will be made. WOO HOO!

[PACS Steve Carleton]

I can check on that for you. Vanguard is about 10-15 minutes from the LANTAREA Office.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

I've been wearing the metal OINC insignia on the ODU because it was authorized...until yesterday. I just ordered the cloth insignia and will wear it once it comes in. I wore the metal insignia because I didn't like (and still don't) the way the OINC Afloat insignia looks in cloth form...it just doesn't look right. The OINC Ashore doesn't look as bad as the Afloat.

I've always worn the cloth collar insignia, I just hate putting the devices on/off everyday...wash and wear.

[ETC Brian Strattard]

Since This Uniform May Be Worn In Many Operational Situations,
And In Order To Maintain Safety And Consistency In Appearance, Metal
Devices Or Attachments Will No Longer Be Authorized.
1. After 15 July 2007, All Accessories Worn On The Odu Shall
Be Embroidered.
2. Collar Rank And Specialty Insignia Can Be Metal (standard
Until 15 July 2007) Or Embroidered (currently Optional, Becoming
Standard After 15 July 2007). No Mixing Of Styles Is Authorized.
Insignia Shall Not Be Scratched, Bent, Torn Or Disfigured In Any
Way.

Soooo...after 15JUL07, the embrodered collar devices cannot be scratched or bent? Wouldn't that apply to the metal insignias which would no longer be authorized? And this is for a consistant look but yet we are authorized to wear two different types of belts? For consistancy, shouldn't we all have the same type of belt...why not metal insignias then???

G. The Buckle And Belt Tip Of The Standard 1 1/4 Inch Black Odu
Belt Must Not Be Chipped Or Discolored. The Bitter End Shall
Extend 2-4 Inches Past The Belt Buckle On The Wearers Left.
H. The Basic Riggers Belt(nsn: 8415-01-526-5551), Also Know As
The Battle Dress Uniform (bdu) Belt, Can Be Purchased Thru The Udc
And May Be Worn As An Optional Item On The Odu. This Belt Is A 1
3/4 Inch Black Nylon Belt.

The Hot Weather Uniform Consists Of The Following Items:
A. Odu Top Iaw Paragraphs 1-3 Above.
B. Odu Shorts (odu Trousers Hemmed At The Knee Or 1 Inch Above
The Knee) Worn With Either The Standard Odu Or Optional Riggers
Belt. Commercially Procured Shorts Are Not Currently Authorized.
C. Odu T-shirt.
D. Black Crew Length Socks.
E. Low Top Safety Shoes Must Comply With Ansi Z41-1999.
F. Commercial Odu Shorts Are Not Organizational Clothing And Can
Not Be Purchased With Unit Funds.

Are 8 inch boots that much hotter than 6 inch boots? Why not just have 6 inch boots or 8 inch boots for everyone...where is this consistancy that was mentioned in the first part of the message?

And why try to copy other services BDUs then make them different...why can't we just order blue BDUs from another service...they work well for the other services tight machinery spaces and such...We want to look like other services but then we want our own identity...the last time I checked...dark blue is different from cammo...isn't that enough for someone to distinguish the CG from say the Marines? Their system works...and how long ago did we come out with our BDUs that we still feel the need to tinker with???

Strat sends...

[AMTCM John Long]

If you guys still have suggestions, send them up thru your chain. I sent up two to the HSC CMC yesterday. The CG-1 folks will look at them.

1. I'd feel comfortable saying it's not a perfect uniform yet. It still needs some tweaking and CG-1 knows that.

2. If anyone has a source of supply for the low-top, hot weather steel toes, send it up. I located a pair on GSA Advantage so I know they exist thru the system. Remember they have to meet the ANSI rating that is specified. Years ago Sears had some tennis shoes that were steel toe'd and meet the rating. :cool:

[MSTC Shad Hudgins]

I'm not too fond of the sew on collar devices for E-7 through E-9. There's too much detail and it makes look like a guy eating cheetos and milk just hacked a loogey on your collar. Just my opinion though. Don't really like the qualification insignia being being the same width as the pocket either. I just don't get why we have to reinvent the wheel every time a change comes.

http://www.combat2000shop.com/combat2000/gear/cloth/insignia/bdu/image/pic4.jpg

[BMC Gene Daigle]

Being stationed in South Florida, the first item that most of my members had issues with is the hot weather uniform. The shorts that we have been purchasing from Vanguard look good and don't fade like the ODU pants. Myself, being a bit vertically challenged, if I cut the ODU pants and have them hemmed, the bottom front pockets typically fall just below my knees, and that is with the large width, short length pants. Will look funny if I cut my ODU pants and hem them into shorts. Will look like my wife’s Capri’s pants. Not very professional looking. I do not wear shorts, maybe once or twice a year, but those who are on the water ever day in the middle of summer, well, why change something that is not broken. Just do not think that every detail was looked at before making the change.

As far as the sew on collar insignias, they look like crap, and are very hard to distinguish between a Chief and Senior Chief. Master Chiefs are a different story. The detail is not the same. Again, do not understand the justification behind this. I agree that if you want everything standard; make it standard with no exceptions, including the type of belts. One style or the other. Otherwise, the justification for the other changes does not make sense. All or none.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

3. EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, THE FOLLOWING SHALL APPLY TO THE ODU:
A. WHEN WASHING, ENSURE THAT ALL VELCRO CLOSURES ARE FASTENED TO MINIMIZE COLLECTION OF LINT AND FOREIGN MATTER.
B. THE ODU SHALL BE IRONED WITHOUT MILITARY CREASES. IN ADDITION,
COLLARS, LAPELS, SLEEVES, AND POCKETS ON BOTH THE ODU TOP AND
TROUSERS SHALL LAY FLAT. GREAT CARE MUST BE TAKEN WHEN IRONING THE ODU. EXCESSIVE HEAT, STARCHING, AND REPEATED SHARP CREASING CAN RESULT IN WHITENING AND/OR FINISH DAMAGE. IRON THE UNIFORM INSIDE OUT TO MINIMIZE GLOSS OR SHINE.

Ok so How is everyone going to interpret the bold text? Wray highlighted but no one noticed. I see it as ODUs must be ironed.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

You have to iron if you want the pockets to lay flat.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

My wife always ironed my trops & put military creases in them.. I thought they looked good. The pocket could still be buttoned and they lay flat..

In the case of the ODU, you are told NOT to put military creases in them...

Pretty simple to me...

Wray... :cool:

[MSTC SJ Natale]

3. EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, THE FOLLOWING SHALL APPLY TO THE ODU:
A. WHEN WASHING, ENSURE THAT ALL VELCRO CLOSURES ARE FASTENED TO MINIMIZE COLLECTION OF LINT AND FOREIGN MATTER.
B. THE ODU SHALL BE IRONED WITHOUT MILITARY CREASES. IN ADDITION,
COLLARS, LAPELS, SLEEVES, AND POCKETS ON BOTH THE ODU TOP AND
TROUSERS SHALL LAY FLAT. GREAT CARE MUST BE TAKEN WHEN IRONING THE ODU. EXCESSIVE HEAT, STARCHING, AND REPEATED SHARP CREASING CAN RESULT IN WHITENING AND/OR FINISH DAMAGE. IRON THE UNIFORM INSIDE OUT TO MINIMIZE GLOSS OR SHINE.

Ok so How is everyone going to interpret the bold text? Wray highlighted but no one noticed. I see it as ODUs must be ironed.

I dont see it that way. I think that the ODU's must still be straight (un-wrinkled) and the pockets shall lay flat. BUT, IF you do decide that ironing is the best way to accomplish that then DO NOT iron in military creases.

IF "B" above simply stated "THE ODU SHALL BE IRONED." then I would say that yes, they HAVE to be ironed, but by simply stating that "THE ODU SHALL BE IRONED WITHOUT MILITARY CREASES" does not necessarily mean that the ODU must be ironed, just simply that if it is ironed, it must be done so without military creases.

IMO

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

The word shall is not a suggestion or recommendation.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/shall

[GMCM Bill Wells (Ret)]

[QUOTE=MSTC SJ
IF "B" above simply stated "THE ODU SHALL BE IRONED." then I would say that yes, they HAVE to be ironed, but by simply stating that "THE ODU SHALL BE IRONED WITHOUT MILITARY CREASES" does not necessarily mean that the ODU must be ironed, just simply that if it is ironed, it must be done so without military creases.

IMO[/QUOTE]

The statement is clear. The first section with the noun ODU and the verb BE with modifier SHALL denotes the ironing but made unclear for the lack of a conjunction to set apart the caveat to the rule.

Try this. "THE ODU SHALL BE IRONED but WITHOUT MILITARY CREASES"

As for hot weather uniforms,

http://www.aug.edu/%7Elibwrw/vwar/ron1/vn0159a.jpg

(That's prawn in the foremost member's hands. We traded potatoes for them. Average was three to the pound. Good eatin')

[MSTC Shad Hudgins]

I see it as it must be ironed.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Shad, that is correct... without military creases..

Wray... :cool:

[BMCS Eric Guerette]

I think that the statement needs clarification. Was the intent to tell us to iron the uniform and do not use creases? Was the author trying to combine to separate ideas to save time? I guess we should contact the sender, or we will debate this forever.

By the way does anyone know the history of military creases? I have a theory but it is just based on logic and speculation.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

I think that the statement needs clarification.

Certainly you have got to be kidding.........

Wray... :cool:

[ETCM Joseph Harold]

OMG does this really matter so much? Make your uniform look good. Don't put military creases in. That is it.

[MSTC Shad Hudgins]

I agree 100%. Prior to this "policy clarification", I told all my guys to iron their ODUs. Going back to the Evals, description for a "4" is "Demonstrated great care in maintaining and wearing uniform". Am I wrong to read that as saying "great care" include ironing the ODU. When you don't, they look like crap.

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

When the ODU first came out, it was considered a "wash and wear" uniform. Now we are instructed to go ahead and iron the uniform. It, not being a dress uniform, should not have military creases. If anyone needs further clarification, go do your nearest AFB and see how they take care of their BDU's. I went to FAIRCHILD AFB to get an ID card and the BDU's that were worn there were sharp. AND they were ironed without military creases.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Shad,
The way I read it, ironing the ODU is not "great care" at this point.. it is simply following the prescribed uniform regulations....

In my opinion, ironing uniforms that were considered "wash & wear"... and NOT required to be ironed, would be "great care".. you know, going that little 'extra'...

I'm damn glad my uniform consists of shorts & a t-shirt...

Wray...:cool:

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

If anyone needs further clarification, go do your nearest AFB and see how they take care of their BDU's.

No, I'd say if anyone needs furthur clarification, they need to re-read the message.....

CG uniform regulations may not be the same as other services...

This is such a simple matter,..... I can't believe it goes on & on & on... like the energizer rabbit...

Wray.. :cool:

[BMCS Mike Ellis]

BMCM,
If there are Chiefs asking these questions, you can bet that our people will too. What better forum to discuss it than this one, to better ensure that we're giving the appropriate response? Isn't that what this site is for?
Mike

[BMC Gene Daigle]

This is the place to address issues, especially when new policy comes out. The MCOTCG was at Station Fort Lauderdale for a visit during Fleetweek, and when told about the new message that came out the day before his visit, he was caught off guard about the new "Hot weather uniform". The one where you would have to wear your ODU Blouse with shorts that were to be created from ODU pants that were cut and then hemmed, with black socks and boots. Apparently, someone did not get "The Memo", but this uniform was not approved by the board, which Master Chief is part of. Should never have made it to the message board. Someone FUBAR'd. So standby for an updated message if one hasn't come out already. This site and asking questions when something doesn't sound right or make common sense, well, everyone makes mistakes. I wonder who reviewed the message before it was released?? More to follow. Once again, common sense prevails.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Mike,
The use of the forum is not the question.. The going over & over the ALCOAST is... I would like to think a bunch a Chiefs undersatand this simple ALCOAST..

Wray... :cool:

[CMC Bruce Bradley]

Well Gene, I'm not sure where your story ends and your opinions start. The Hot Wx Uniform was always hemmed shorts and the uniform blouse, so I don't think it's new. Maybe they are trying to get back to what is in writing and away from what has been bastardized out and about on the coasts. Someone needs to enforce the standards and we all need to get away from the polo shirts and unit tee shirts. Unless of course someone wants to submit that to the board, but it didn't work the last time.

The last Uniform Board message didn't need to say anything about the Hot Wx Uniform because it isn't a new thing. Granted we changed the working uniform , so the message was getting everyone on the same page and back to the written standard.

So how I don't picture MCPO-CG Bowen standing in front of a room of junior members and saying that an officially released ALCOAST is bull. Or did I paraphrase your post too much.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Bruce, you and I must have read a different version of the hot wx topic. The old one I read said blue t-shirt with the US Coast Guard in white letters, and had white socks with the lower cut boots.

[GMCM Bill Wells (Ret)]

Someone needs to enforce the standards and we all need to get away from the polo shirts and unit tee shirts.

Actually, T-shirts would look better with cut-off pants than the ODU "blouse." Nothing says tacky more than long sleeves with short pants. I know, it's a Yankee thing to do in Florida.

[CMC Isherwood]

While this forum is a good place to discuss current issues, the best resources for "the facts" are the program managers. But, in most cases your gold badge CMC should be able to provide you with the accurate information.

I called CG-1221 regarding the "hot weather" uniform description listed in the recent msg. The msg supercedes the uniform manual and the contents of the msg will be incorporated in the next change to the uniform manual.

With the release of the "Ware and Care" msg, the ODU blouse is authorized with the "hot weather" uniform along with the other "hot weather" changes.

I also asked about the Ball Cap device, the response was, “the present metal collar device will remain as authorized.” Reasoning was, the Ball Cap is authorized to be worn with trops where the metal collar device is prescribed.”

For the curious, the next uniform board will meet on 05Jun. The board is made up of the MCPOCG, 2 AREA CMCs, CGA rep, Cape May rep, UDC rep, Gender Policy rep, Reserve Forces rep, and several ADHOC program experts.

[GMCM Bill Wells (Ret)]

several ADHOC program experts.

Ad hoc experts? hmmmm. I've seen mess decks full of these.

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

Does anyone honestly believe there will be a new CIM 1020.6 (series) within a year?

What happens in a year from that ALCOAST automatically gets cancelled as per CIM 5215.6E? Will the reissue another ALCOAST stating it's an COMDTINST vice COMDTNOTE so it can be valid in perpetuity, with only reviews every four years or till superceed by the addition to the CIM 1020.6 (series) and subsequently cancelled.

Will someone's OER suffer for failing to update the CIM 1020.6 (series) in a timely fashion, like before the automatic cancellation of the CN 1020?

Inquiring minds want to know :confused:

[BMC Gene Daigle]

Master Chief Bradley,

Yes Master Chief Slesh is correct. T-Shirt with "Coast Guard" in white letters 3/4", with ODU shorts, white socks, 3/4 top safety boots with steel toes. No unit T-shirts, even though I still see many of them being worn around areas like AirSta and Miami with ODU pants. Many things have changed at the STA FTL since you left two years ago, and one of them is wearing uniforms IAW the COMDINST. Have you see anyone wear the ODU blouse with shorts that are hemmed from ODU pants? If it is the standard, I have yet to see it worn once, I guess everyone is out of standard. Yes the MCOTCG did say in his own words, "That uniform was never agreed upon and should not have made it on the message board. It was not authorized." His words, not mine. And yes the words ridiculous did come out of his mouth as well. He knows the Operational Mission in South Florida, and the Hot WX uniform indicated on the current message is just plain obsurd. I wore the full ODU for 10 hours, out in the middle of the hot Florida sun, with no cover since there was not a cloud in the sky for the Fort Lauderdale Air and Sea Show this past weekend on Sunday in the position of PATCOM, with no body armor or wearing a full gun belt or PFD. The uniform was just plain hot and uncomfortable. When I was home and took off my T-shirt is was soaked in sweet. Once again I will revert back to using common sense. I am all about holding everyone to standards, but not at the cost and safety of our hard working members that are out there every day doing the mission. I think you remember when then Miami Group Commander in 2004 was out in his full ODU under the sun for hours and had heat exhaustion. The Hot Wx unifrom that MCPO Slesh and is "correct", is the one that will be worn UFN.

[BMC Gene Daigle]

I wanted to add that the hemmed pants were authorized when the Working Blue uniform was in affect. You would hemm those pants to make shorts. But those are now long gone and the ODU shorts have been authorized as part of the hot wx uniform. That is why they sell them at the CGEX.

[BMCS Mike Ellis]

More to add: D7