Flag Voice 283

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Has everyone gotten the chance to read thru this. A couple of points of interest for me.......
1500 E-7 and above who have yet to attend.
The number of empty seats recorded over the past two years.
You now get orders three to four months prior to attending vs. the 4 to 6 weeks you used to get.

[BMCS T. D. Ellis]

Can you attach the Flag voice or is it on CG Central?
I haven't got that figured out yet.

[BMC Ralph Williams]

It's on CG Central. If you click on flag voices under Leadership Voices it will be on page 3.

Hope this helps.

Ralph

[BMCS Terrill Malvesti]

Here it is: http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-w/flagvoice/fv283.htm

CHIEF PETTY OFFICER ACADEMY EMPTY SEATS

The Chief Petty Officer Academy (CPOA) is one of the Coast Guard’s most important leadership training programs. We have worked hard to provide 640 training quotas a year. Yet, we have more than 1,500 Chiefs who have not attended the Academy. The school normally has a lengthy waiting list (upwards of 30-40 people) for each class. However, in FY04, we lost over 50 quotas because of late cancellations, no-shows, or disenrollments because of disqualifying medical and weight issues. In FY05, we lost over 20 quotas. Every empty seat is a missed opportunity, and I ask prospective students and their chain of command to do everything possible not to lose these precious opportunities.



Addressing the following core issues will significantly reduce the number of CPOA empty seat:

Students must report to the CPOA meeting the required physical standards (including weight);

Cancellation of orders to the CPOA must be treated as an important command decision made only for urgent personal or command reasons; and

In those circumstances when orders must be cancelled, the Training Quota Management Center (TQC) must be notified as early as possible to allow a Chief on the waiting list to have an opportunity to attend.
Commandant Instruction 1500.15 (series), Chief Petty Officer Academy provides information on the policy and procedures for attending the CPOA. We are currently reviewing possible changes to that Instruction to help minimize empty seats. Pending changes, we have moved out with the following:

Orders are now issued three months prior to class convening instead of 4 to 6 weeks to allow more time for the unit and member to prepare for the extended TAD. This allows the unit to request TAD augmentation if needed and permits the member and family to make necessary arrangements. It will also permit travel arrangements if assigned to a cutter that is deployed.

We will continue every effort to fill cancelled slots. But, to minimize the churn and inefficiencies associated with late orders due to cancellations, TQC will stop issuing orders to those on the waiting list who are two weeks or less away from the reporting date.

The CPOA is developing a method for students undergoing the course of instruction at the CPOA to contact incoming students to answer any questions and help them prepare for the program. This should reduce anxiety and build excitement for the training.
Pending changes to the Commandant Instruction, I ask units to immediately institute the following:

Ensure student profiles are submitted 30 days prior to class convening, using the modified physical examination form found in the Medical Manual (Figure 3-A-1, page 3-12). This form is signed by a medical officer. The CPOA will send a message to the unit if the member does not submit their student profile on time. Upon receiving the student profile, the CPOA will flag any issues that may preclude successful completion of the program.

Include the Gold Badge Command Master Chief (Sector, District, MLC, or Area) on all requests to cancel orders to the CPOA. This will provide greater visibility to the Sector, District, MLC or Area Commanders.

Cancelled orders to CPOA should be released by O-5 and above unit COs/XOs only, Headquarters Office Chiefs or higher, or Area/MLC/District Division Chiefs or higher. This will ensure command and senior level attention to the urgency of canceling a quota.
I appreciate everyone’s cooperation as we all endeavor to get the most value out of the absolutely essential leadership training the CPOA provides to our Chiefs.

Regards,


Ken Venuto

[CMC Bruce Bradley]

Yeah we used to get those kind of things as they filtered down from the badge network in the old days. But lately it seems that we are in an information vacuum up here in D1.

[AMTCM John Long]

I have a different take on this. I, like most others I hope, have seen other correspondence related to this. If having too many empty seats is a concern, then maybe we're offering too many seats. Reduce the number of quotas to keep up with the expected promotions and cancellations. The other option is to shorten the size of each class by 4 or 5 seats, then create extra class convenings to pick up the extra seats. That will give the pipeline more time to manage the flow rate vs going for max flow each time.

I know the current push is to get all the E8/9's who have never went. Once that pool is finished we'll definitely need to recalculate the number of quotas offered.

For you older folks, remember when we had to submit a package to attend? Competition was high for the few coveted seats. I got picked up on the second try. After that they dropped the package requirement.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

John, look at the 1500 that haven't attended and the 30 people on the waiting list each month. The problem with the empty seats seems to be from people pulling out at the last minute or being sent back for weight or medical concerns. The number of empty seats is dropping from year to year. I think that sending the orders earlier will address some of that also. And I'm thinking that there's not that many people who were grandfathered in, left. I think that the problem still lies with the new people who haven't gone, and just don't want to, .....or commands that still say they can't afford to lose someone for the five weeks.

[AMTCM John Long]

I dunno Stu. I can see your point partially. Even though we have 30 something folks on the waiting list each month it's useless for the current convening class if the waiting list folks can't be used as last minute backfills. We're still having open seats, even with the waiting list. See where I'm coming from?

Yes, part of the problem is last minute cx's. IMO, I think the expectation or goal of 100% capacity every class is unrealistic. The alternative is a certain % of open seats should be factored in as acceptable. Or...........

I don't know the inner workings of the class assignment process. Having said that, an armchair suggestion would be to have, for example....automatically have 20 primary students and 5 alternate students. All of whom are slated for the same convening class. If any of the primaries drop out the alternates get picked up. The alternates would be prepared to go on short notice as the backfill. The alternates who didn't get picked up would go to the primary list for the next class and so on. Also as a side thought, I'd like to see the names of primaries and alternates come out on a message. As you know some of our other classes already do this (OCS, post grad, etc). I think the names used to come out on the message board years ago. Maybe we should go back to that to raise awareness and profile of the process.

Furthermore, should we open up an east coast CPO Academy again? The thought there is to have a class convene east or west every 15-18 days or so. If one misses the first time he/she might be able to catch the other class. Funding would probably be an issue with that though.

Anywho.....I believe the answer is out there, we just have to figure it out.

When I got picked up I was at BQN. I got a call like 4 or 5 days before the class convening asking if I wanted to go. I had like 2 hours to respond. Luckily I had great supervisors who worked with me. The wife and kids were understanding also. We were still recovering from the hurricane in PR so it was a stretch for the unit and the family for me to bail out for the class. In my case, we all managed the best we could.

I would be curious to see the demographics of the 1500 who have not attended. I haven't researched this to confirm it but I was info'd if your retirement letter is on file you don't have to go. Do you know if that is factual? It would makes sense. What does that bring the 1500 down to or was that factored in already??

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I'd also go with opening one on the East Coast,.......... help solidify the need for keeping New London open...... But I would think that it is a money issue. And not to throw anyone under the bus but MC Isherwood would probably be the best source to tell you how the arrived at 1500. In the other thread he said they had over 600 AD and reservists in PACAREA alone.

And my solution for empty seats would to be.... over book them. Factor a couple of extra seats every class to make up for the ones that drop out. Setting the goal of 100% isn't unrealistic,.... thinking that you're going to meet it everytime probably is. Just go with two extra seats per class. If we only had 20 empty seats in FY 05 that might have prevented that.

I'd like to see the demo on the people too. I'd like to see the difference in TIG/TIS for the people that haven't attended. I'd think that they people that aren't attending have more TIG/TIS that the people have already met the requirement.

[BMCS Scott Hooley]

Why does the class have to be so large? When I went through a few years back, class 112, we were the first class to double up. If I recall correctly we had 62-64 people in one class. It was divided into two class room basically teaching the same stuff in two locations. I cannot recall why this was done exactly, but maybe it is time to go back to one class of 30 to 35 people. I believe they are still running the larger classes.

[AMTCM John Long]

I would opt for smaller classes also. I'm not an educator but I would think it would increase the quality of the instruction. At least that's what your hear from the NEA. Of course I think they have a multiple agenda....just IMO.

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

Scott,
I was in that class too. I think that was right after they shut down the east coast course and wanted to keep the same number of seats going. By separating into two classrooms, they can keep the course type interactions in the small class environment, but for the Chiefs Calls, and other events, we can gain more from having the larger pool to draw from. Besides, it saves $$$ having all under one roof. I think that the senior leadership is heading in the right direction with this. Senior Officer approval to cancel orders makes sense. I think the next step will be for TQC to start pipelining the training. Just start cutting orders for people that make Chief. For those that have made it and not gone, then they should have an STTR on file or make other plans. Mandatory is just that.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Pipeline It!

It seems to me the CPO Academy Slate could be developed when the cuts are established, seems simple enough to me.

[AMTCM John Long]

Pipeline It!

It seems to me the CPO Academy Slate could be developed when the cuts are established, seems simple enough to me.

That brings up an interesting thought. What do you think of the idea of making it mandatory for taking any E7 SWE? Why wait till someone makes E7 before sending them to a "E7" training? Shouldn't you get the training first, then get the promo. Seems it's backwards now. You get the promo, then get the training after the promo. Just a thought.........

John

[BMCS John Brady - Ret.]

As an East Coast CPOA grad I would vote to keep it closed.... The CGA has one priority (it is a factory....) and we were often reminded that we were a secondary afterthought. I know I know the LDC is there and all that but when a CHIEF gets kicked out of the gym or bumped from a medical appt, etc. we knew where we stood. Also not even a "physical" mess while we were there, been back for PCO/POINC/PXO/PXPO and they have a nice one now.......

Not whining the CGA was built for a purpose and it should probably remain that way.

I agree with having this a prerequisite for CPO, why not make this a requirement for E-6's that are in all other ways qualified for advancement. This way the burden is removed from the unit kind of like making a SN pass NAVRULS test before making BM3, Oh wait we don't do that anymore....

Seriously this seems to make the most sense, and there is no grey area here. Go and you make E7.....

[BMCM Deane Smith]

The CPO Academy should be for Chiefs...only. The academy should be pipeline type training. You make E-7, you go. Don't want to go?...then give back the anchor. It's really quite simple.

As far as E-6 going to the CPO Academy, I say no. I think they need their own leadership academy. I think we should have 3 tiers of leadership training. First at the E-4 level, then at E-6 and finally at E-7. All should be mandatory.

With the recent message by the MCPOCG, hopefully we're heading in this direction. I guess time will tell.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Master Chief,

We do not have a consistent stairstep approach to developing the leadership abilities of our people.

We have the LAMS Roadshow, they just recently in the last year or so went to a Resident LAMS approach at Petaluma. I'm not sure if this was a test or not, or if this will become the norm.

Being near two A-School facilities (Yorktown and E-City), I have seen elements of the team building exercises rolled into the A-School curriculem (jump rope, etc.)

Dare I say it, the Army, has leadership schools that build upon each other, Basic NCO Indoc, Advanced NCO Indoc and ultimately the Seargeant Major's Academy (see A Coast Guard of One Articles in Ledership News).

We pipeline everything else, based on the assignment process, leadership should be the same!

But until we look at this from a System Approach (yep, learned that in CPO Academy), we really can't pipeline.

I would whole heartedly support your idea to attend before taking the E7 SWE, but we have to make LAMS required at the E5 level first.

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

I agree with Deane. This is the "CPO" Academy. It should be for Chiefs. I agree that LAMS should be a "requirement" along the way for Petty Officers as well. I don't see why the CPOA orders could not be handled by TQC. Forget having to submit an ETR or STTR. Since cancelling orders now requires a senior officer approval, why not have TQC just start cutting orders based on the advancment list. I know this is not the kinder, gentler way of doing business, but maybe this is what needs to be done. Set a timeline for attendance at the CPOA for newly minted Chiefs or take back the anchor. If they have a legitimate reason for having to cancel orders, then authorize a specific length of time that the senior officer that cancelled the orders can grant a waiver for. Seems to me that this would be a good way to start.

Then we need to look at those that have not yet been. How many Chiefs are made each year on average? How many seats at the CPOA are available per year on average? We have about 1500 "overdue" Chiefs that need to attend. Seems that a timeline could be established there as well. This is the dealine to attend, turn in your letter, or turn in your anchor. Members choice.

[AMTCM John Long]

I went to New London also. I wouldn't put it back there either, however I would definitley consider opening another if this is a priority.

Reading the email corespondence that was passed before the ALCOAST, getting all the CPO's to attend was part of the MCPOCG's plan for another initiative he is working. If you don't recall, go back and review the first paragraph or two of the email that was passed.

I'm not familiar enough with the Army's leadership schools to speak with knowledge. Do they have a mandatory school for the E6's to attend prior to advancing to E7?

I would disagree with the standard that an E6 wanting to compete for E7 needs to promote to E7 prior to going to the Academy. Let's phrase it this way....if an E6 wants to compete for E7, he/she needs to complete the CPOA. It could be a PME requirement. I bet that would fill some seats. I also bet it would weed out the folks who don't take the transition from E6 to E7 seriously.

An example tyat comes to mind would be that you don't get a prestigeous college degree first then start taking the classes for it at a later date.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

John, right now it's a requirement to make 8 and that doesn't seem to be filling the seats. I don't think that it should be a requirement before you make Chief. But it should be a requirement if you want to retain it. If you're not going to make yourself advancement ready, you should move out of the way and let someone in who is. If you don't want to change with the times move on. If you don't want to support command decisions,...... move on.

[CMC Bruce Bradley]

If The Chiefs Academy is for Chiefs (those wearing anchors) then it will not be The Chiefs Academy. Make it manditory for those advancing the E7 to attend within 1 year of advancement or go back to being an E6.

Or make it a requirement that you cannot apply for CWO until you have attended. And before someone says that E6s can apply foe CWo so what about them. Change that too so that you have to be a Chief to go CWO.

[MKC Art Bailly (ret)]

If you're not going to make yourself advancement ready, you should move out of the way and let someone in who is. If you don't want to change with the times move on. If you don't want to support command decisions,...... move on.
Disclaimer- I have Already attended the CPOA.
I think this is some of why people are not attending. Just because you haven’t completed your prac’s for the next higher pay grade doesn’t mean you should move on and make way for other especially at the E-7 pay grade. It’s not a requirement, period. If someone has no intention of going E-8 and is not doing the required prac’s to make 8 why would they go to the CPOA? Or maybe they are close to 20 years and are going to retire in a few years. Most people have families at this point in their enlistment and have choices have to be made and I bet for the majority the family part is a big factor. I can’t blame anyone not wanting to attend a course that is not mandatory to spend time with their loved ones. There is currently no mandatory requirement to go to be an E-7. . If its so important to attend this training as a E-7 then change the requirement. I think that if the Coast Guard wants it to be that way then make it a requirement to advance or have it as pipe line training. When you pin on the Anchor you receive orders from TQC to go. It is the only way you will ever have 100% compliance.
I think it is well worth it. Like 100’s of chiefs before me I chose to go but I’m not going to dog someone that doesn’t want to a course that is not required. Especially if they plan on getting out or do plan plan on advancing any higher before they retire. And if you want all chiefs to attend then I don’t think It should be grandfathered. If you are a E-7 to E-10 and have not attended the academy then you need to sign up and take the course.

[BMCS John Brady - Ret.]

If its so important to attend this training as a E-7 then change the requirement

YES, that is what I was trying to say.... Currently it is SO important to go but officially not a requirement. SO change the requirement, several great ideas here or a combo of these ideas.

We hear a lot about leadership, it gets pushed down to us all the time.....walk the talk so to speak. IF this is so important then make it an OFFICIAL requirement (LEADERSHIP by COMDINST) and quit tap dancing around it, BLACK and WHITE.

My main point again is why should this even be a unit level decision???

[BMCS Mark Stauffer]

If the school is the same as when I went through, which I am sure it is, it can only be beneficial to a person no matter what they decide to do. I like the idea of sending new E7s/Chiefs to the CPOA as soon as possible. If a person retires it can help them on the "outside", and whether they go CWO, 8 or stay 7 it doesn't matter they get the training that benefits themselves, the mess and the Coast Guard. The instruction given there I thought was excellent and shouldn't be optional.

"We have worked hard to provide 640 training quotas a year. Yet, we have more than 1,500 Chiefs who have not attended the Academy."

This quote makes it sound like it is a shame that 1500 Chiefs didn't attend an optional course. The blame can't be placed on those Chiefs that haven't attended until they make it mandatory. All other services make it mandatory, why is it so difficult and why has it taken so long for the CG to make it mandatory?

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

And it will be a requirement....soon enough. They've made it a requirement in PACAREA.
Art I agree with everything that you said. That's always been my stance. If they think that it's that important, make it a requirement. And they are. The MCPO-CG is saying that it's coming. In the interim he's asking people to step up. If you haven't attended one of the schools step up.

Disclaimor,...... I've never been. I never had to. I put in for the school because it was a requirement for a job that I'm not going to get anymore. Before that e-mail was sent out a couple of weeks ago I would have pulled my name off the school list and let someone else go that would need it to advance. But the times they are a changin'. I leave next friday. I'm still going because the senior enlisted member of our service is asking all Chiefs to attend our school. He's saying that before they can get funding for other courses we need to fully utilize the one that we have.
So I'm back to being a bad person, but I think I'll keep judging the people that refuse to attend for their own selfish reasons. It's five weeks. It's not going to be a fun or easy five weeks for me, I'll be doing it without my family. But I think that I'll think about those young Petty Officers on the big white ones who keep wondering when our service is going to open up some leadership schools for them.

John, you might make the pep squad yet.

[AMTCM John Long]

The E7 PME requirement as mandatory before taking any E7 SWE is starting to sound better as I think about this issue. That removes all ambiguity and gray matter. No school, no SWE.

If at the current pace of 640 quotas per year, 2 years TIS for E6 to E7, that would equal ~1240 quotas. The only issues I can see is there would not be enough seats to go around. That might be a good thing though. Would that justify opening an east coast school to meet the new demand?? Should we increase the quotas at the west coast school? Could an E6 have to wait an extra year to get a seat (3 years, ~1,920 quotas)?

CPO Academy.....change the name of the school if need be. Chief Petty Officer Candidate (CPOC) School????

We don't make someone an Ensign then send them to OCS or the Academy do we? Why's the enlisted corps different?

Great thread!!!!!!!!!!! Makes one think!

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Master Chief,

Not tryingto hijack the thread, but...

Why is anything different with the Enlisted Side -- Look at OinC -vs- CO Review Boards.

After sitting in on a District OinC Review Board recently, I would say I think all COs should have to sit through that process.

[BMCS John Brady - Ret.]

Steve,

First good for you for observing the OIC board, I hope you give this proccess some visibilty....

After sitting in on a District OinC Review Board recently, I would say I think all COs should have to sit through that process.



That will NEVER happen, for many reasons. There are also many other inconsistencies between O and E, for example Why does an OIC need to be a coxswain (or they get relieved) and a CO doesn't (I think if you are in charge of a Boat Forces unit you should be a coxswain, the CO of an AIRSTA is a pilot...) Why do O's get to pay for their meals on ships and us E's have our pay taken from us???? etc etc

At the end of the day we are in military and just enlisted folks who require supervision and leadership. Some things will never change, I was told once when you accept that and move on you will be happy????

JB

[BMCS John Brady - Ret.]

AMTCM,

Good thought, CPO Academy.....change the name of the school if need be. Chief Petty Officer Candidate (CPOC) School???? Making this a pre-requisite requirement in some form seems to make the most sense.....


Stu,

I will never make the pep squad, but thanks.

JB

[BMCM Deane Smith]

The E7 PME requirement as mandatory before taking any E7 SWE is starting to sound better as I think about this issue. That removes all ambiguity and gray matter. No school, no SWE.

If at the current pace of 640 quotas per year, 2 years TIS for E6 to E7, that would equal ~1240 quotas. The only issues I can see is there would not be enough seats to go around. That might be a good thing though. Would that justify opening an east coast school to meet the new demand?? Should we increase the quotas at the west coast school? Could an E6 have to wait an extra year to get a seat (3 years, ~1,920 quotas)?

CPO Academy.....change the name of the school if need be. Chief Petty Officer Candidate (CPOC) School????

We don't make someone an Ensign then send them to OCS or the Academy do we? Why's the enlisted corps different?

Great thread!!!!!!!!!!! Makes one think!

John...why not just have a different leadership approach all together? If you're proposing that we start sending E-6 to our only leadership school, why not open more schools at different levels? Why not have 3 schools throughout your career? Why not keep the academy for Chiefs and start lower level leadership schools for our junior and mid-level petty officers? You're plan changes the name of the academy to meet a need, why not give them their own academy?

I'm looking long-term. Having 3 leadership academies is the best thing more our service. We should be doing it for many reasons.

[MSTC F Bizzell]

Okay I have watched this thread for some time now and I agree with most of the comments. However, I think along with making the CPO Academy a requirement, it would be very beneficial to let folks know why the CPO Academy is great to attend. Along with telling someone "you have to go", tell them "here is how it will benefit you " whether you are retiring in a few years (like me) or planning to stick around for a while.

I think we will find that the more positive advertising beyond the web site (the site is great), messages, and Flag Voices, the more willing people will be to attend. As an instructor I deal with individuals who come to courses becuase they have been compelled to come and those who come becuase they want to be there based on our advertisement of a course. Trust me when I say that you may get one or two of the forced individuals to get into the course but the classes where the individuals want to be there becuase they see the benefits of the course are the most interactive and rewarding.

[AMTCM John Long]

John...why not just have a different leadership approach all together? If you're proposing that we start sending E-6 to our only leadership school, why not open more schools at different levels? Why not have 3 schools throughout your career? Why not keep the academy for Chiefs and start lower level leadership schools for our junior and mid-level petty officers? You're plan changes the name of the academy to meet a need, why not give them their own academy?

I'm looking long-term. Having 3 leadership academies is the best thing more our service. We should be doing it for many reasons.

I'm all over leadership training for all. In a fully-funded world, I feel it should start at the E3 level. I have vocally advocated that for years.

My point is to have the mandatory training for the next higher paygrade (I suppose you can pick one, it doesn't matter) first, then the promo. I used the name change to align with the particular concept proposed. Reality says it won't happen due to $$.

The E9's (can't remember if it's for CC's and CSC's also) already have what I would view as a leadership school avaliable if they choose to go the CMC route. I would anticipate that being a mandatory one soon.


Steve,

Likewise, this is off topic.......please don't take this wrong as I don't know.......were you actually on the OINC Board, providing input or just in the room? If so, was that to offer a diverse view of the candidates? I would have guessed BM, MK, DC, EM, OS, etc.....

I have sat on Army Boards a couple of times for their version of COQ.

Thanks...John

[MSTC F Bizzell]

Master Chief,

I agree with you 100% here. There should be some sort of mandatory leadership training at all levels of advancement. Quite honestly, E-7 is way too late in the game to mandate someone to get leadership training. It is time the CG took leadership training seriously and stop using the "Do not have the funds" excuse. Leadership is an itergral part of what we do and to treat it as a "Nice To Have" is just wrong.

We do not have to re-invent the wheel here either. The Army in particular and other branches in general have seemed to incorporate this overall approach to leadership into thier training culture.

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

Lets not narrow the CPOA strictly to "leadership training". Sure, there is a great deal of leadership training there. Certainly things that are tailored more to CPO's and above. However, I think that the CPOA teaches a great deal more than that. It helps to build the Chief. For those like Stu, that have worn an anchor for a few years, they will not get as much as the boot Chief. They will still gain from it, and will also add to it for others. I personally think that the CPOA is integral to building a Chief. I would like to see everyone attend within a year of putting on an anchor. I would also like to see everyone attend CCTI. However, the CPOA can, should, and in some cases IS mandatory. The next step is to add a timeline and a consequence for not complying. Hmmmm, sounds familiar. Command and consequence.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

The E9's (can't remember if it's for CC's and CSC's also) already have what I would view as a leadership school avaliable if they choose to go the CMC route. I would anticipate that being a mandatory one soon.

John, if you're talking about the two week Capstone, that is supposed to be required for CSC/CMCs but it is open to all (?). They wind up with open seats in that one also, but the special assignment website specifically states that it is not a substitute for the requirement to attend a senior leadership school.

[CMC Isherwood]

I can’t help but wonder, why are we “just now” talking about FV283? It was released I Feb06 , So long ago, as a matter of fact, that RADM Venuto has been retired for more than 6 months.

PACAREA and LANTAREA are currently collaboratively reviewing and updating their People Plans which will both specifically address CPO Academy attendance. GCCS is in the decision process to join the Areas with a People Plan for HQs units and their people or to have the Area People Plans remove the verbiage “with the exception of HQ units”.

While all this is transpiring, MCPOCG has assigned a CMC working group to rewrite the CPO Academy instruction, which will specifically address attendance requirements. Any one care to guess in which way? MCPOCG sent an email to every Chief(7, 8, 9) in the CG, LANT/PAC/HQs are all speaking the same language. What part of the message is not clear?

Chiefs, it’s time to ROGER UP and attend the CPO Academy by your own accord on your own schedule prior to having ORDERS issued for a less convenient time!! Then what?

No one wants this to get ugly, but then again we are not going to run from a fight.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I brought it up for the numbers........ and because parts of it have just started getting put into place. I got my orders for the Oct class about four weeks before the class starts. The people in the January Class already have their orders. In fact that was what made me read the message again.

[AMTCM John Long]

No one wants this to get ugly, but then again we are not going to run from a fight.

I don't see this as getting ugly. As with all CG-wide changes, folks in the field are still digesting it. I would call it part of the trickle down effect. Once the current crop of non-attendees have attended or retired it should be a non-issue.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

This is my favorite part...

Chiefs, it’s time to ROGER UP and attend the CPO Academy by your own accord on your own schedule prior to having ORDERS issued for a less convenient time!!

It doesn't get any clearer than that.

[J Cotham, OSCS]

I believe many have touched on this in one form or another with mandatory training prior to making Chief. Let's just jump off and do it!
We have the school and staff in place to do it, all we have to do is change the students. Stop sending Chiefs through the CPOA and start sending first classes as a requirment to make Chief. Watch them line like pigs at feeding time.
The staff is great and there is much to learn but the target audience is all wrong.

My two cents :cool:

[SKC Eric S. Highland]

Last I checked we were subject to the orders placed over us provided they are not unlawful.

If it is what he wants done, the Commandant should simply order that all Chiefs attend the academy. He has given the program to the MCPO-CG.

The MCPO-CG should simply cut orders and have them sent to the unit. If a "scheduling conflict" comes up, then you cut some TAD orders or bring on a reservist to cover so that ALL CHIEFS get through the program.

However, it was my impression that the CPO Academy did not want you there if you didn't want to be there. They made that pretty clear. "no ticket punchers"

Personally, I wanted to attend. I did attend. I enjoyed it very much and was blessed by what I learned there. I would encourage all others to attend as well.

But if we are part of a service who follows orders. And our superiors want us all to attend, then simply cut ORDERS and make it happen.

v/r

[MKC M. J. Petrich]

OK, I recently found this forum and feel that I may be able to chime in on this subject and add a different perspective. I was advanced to CPO July 2000 and because of operational and personnel reasons I have not attended the CPOA. I currently have 22 years time in service approx. 61/2 as a CPO. I decided to retire after this billet, which will be in 2010 and feel that the CPOA is not for me.
I know that PACAREA recommends/requires attendance and that LANTAREA will soon follow with their recommendation/requirement. What I don’t know is what happens to CPO’s that have made the same decision I have and will not be attending the CPOA, but still wish to complete there career objective

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

The decision on whether or not to attend is no longer theirs/yours. They will either pick a class that is convenient for them, or will wait for orders for the one that was choosen by someone else. I don't think that they'd hold up your retirement, but 2010 is a long way off, and they could fit you in before then.

[ETC (FT type) Ed Shank]

First, the MCPO-CG has said that until we fill this school the funding for other leadership schools at different levels won't be given. So forget the whole idea of leadership at junior levels.

Secondly, how do we decide what an appropriate time frame is to attend? One year? I made E-7, got sent to Loran school and sent to Attu. I don't care how good a school is, I wasn't using my mid-tour leave to go. What about PATFORSWA? They are there for 18 months including pipeline.

I have not attended and don't know when I will be able to attend. I will most likely be having reconstuctive knee surgery with in the next 3 months. Then with physical therapy etc, it will probably be late next year before I am physically able to attend. Should I have to give back my anchor because I answered the call of duty and filled an isolated job, and then need knee surgery because of injuries sustained complying with the weight standards?

There are the same people on here talking about how great the CPOA is. If that were the case wouldn't it sell itself? The majority of people I talk to say they got a "couple things out of it". Is a couple things worth five weeks of my time? There are a lot of things in the CPOA that can be removed just from what I have heard/read, let alone what I may experience. The CLEP test requirement is one of many. We have ESO's that specialize in that stuff, not every Chief wants a college degree, nor should they have to get one. They know where to get the answer, and that is the ESO.

Lastly, as it is, many people go to "get their ticket punched". The message clearly states that they don't want those people, but they are going to make it mandatory. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

There are the same people on here talking about how great the CPOA is. If that were the case wouldn't it sell itself? The majority of people I talk to say they got a "couple things out of it". Is a couple things worth five weeks of my time? There are a lot of things in the CPOA that can be removed just from what I have heard/read, let alone what I may experience.

And that would be the reason it will never sell itself Ed. Until all chiefs support the Academy, it wont support itself. Its our school, ours alone to sell. Look at the photos, those same people who only got a couple of things out of it only smiled a couple of times while there, right? Really, do you ever see those people pouting while there? Ever read thier critiques? Ask to see some. Support the school, the MCPOCG and yourself. There is more to it than CLEPs. The networking alone is worth the five weeks!

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Ed, for some people getting one thing out of it should be worth their time. Some people need more. And even for those people that need "nothing" , it's now time to give something back.
I'm not sure that the knee surgery would keep you from attending. I leave tomorrow and when I did my physical the doctor wrote that I should walk for all the running requirements. With my physical limitations the people out at the school recommended that I attend the CPOA as opposed to one of the other senior leadership schools where the standards are less flexible.

I think the appropriate amount of time depends on the individual. People that had actual reasons would probably be afforded more time than some who just coming up with the excuses. And with orders being issued three to fours month ahead of time, those excuses are going to be harder to sell. And your going to have to sell them to the district in order to be released from the class.

And its the ticket puncher attitude that really needs to be changed. Once it's a requirement, people will just have to accept it. Go to the class and take as much away from it as you can. If you can't get anything out of it, help the people who can get everything that they need, before you allow them to back to their unit.

[ETC (FT type) Ed Shank]

Master Chief,

I agree that the attitude may need to be changed, however getting your ticket punched is prevalent in the CG. An example is the promotions for BMC (it might be BMCS, it's not really important for this reply), anyone who wants to compete must qualify for OIC and pass the board. Does everyone who goes before the board WANT to be an OIC? I know at least a couple that don't. They enjoy being underway and don't want to be an OIC but they have to go before the board to get their ticket punched. Anytime something is mandatory, there will always be the attitude that the only reason someone is somewhere is because they have to. There is no way around it. Now, I think if they would review the curriculum, and shorten the timeframe, you would get more people stepping up to attend. I use ships as an example, they get underway for 6 weeks, the convening date is right when they get back, they attend the CPOA and then return to the ship just in time to get underway. We are not just talking about 5 weeks away from family, but 17 weeks. Now we have all (most of us anyway) been underway and been away from family, however would you volunteer to do it if you didn't have to? This takes us right back to HAVING to and it hurts the attitude.

Another point, is the finacial outlay. While most of us are finacially stable, there are some of us that have no real savings built up and might still be paycheck to paycheck. Now you have to bring 100 dollars for dinner, you are required to bring a dinner dress uniform, etc. So, being selfish, 100 bucks buys some parts for my son's harley, I don't spend 100 dollars on dinner...EVER.

I will attend the CPOA, whether to get my ticket punched or because it will make a signifigant difference in my abilities to perform as a Chief. I go through everything with an open mind, but will also be the first to say I didn't get anything out of something, or it wasn't worth my time. There is a change in today's Coast Guard, some of it due to changes in society and some of it due to just changes in the Coast Guard. For many people, this is a job. Not their life, it is a career just like IBM, GM etc. Making Chief is just another promotion, and more money for the check of the month club. For others making Chief in the CG is the greatest thing that ever happened to them and they will do anything for the Mess, and the CG regardless of the sacrifice to family and home life. As long as the CG is just a job, people are going to just punch their ticket. It is no different then the corporations the CG has attempted to model.

[AMTCM John Long]

Ed,

Your bring up a great point about the 17 weeks. Maybe a TAD replacement concept might work in cases like yours. Let the ship get underway with a TAD body while you're at the CPO Acad.

I made a point to note what was fresh and new to me during my class in 98 or 99. If I recall, maybe only 2-3 subjects. Everything else I was already exposed to via CG training or all of my college classes.

That brings up another point I hadn't thought of. If the class is still geared towards the new Chief, will the older E8's and E9's who been around the block many times get anything out of this or will it be as you point out......"getting a ticket punched.

Stu will be going soon and maybe he can reflect on his experience when he gets back. I would like to hear what any other E8/9 who went would care to share. If the feedback suggests....maybe a class(s) should be set up for the old timers to keep experience levels at par?? Maybe gear some class subjects comensurate with the experience level???

[ASTC Ronny German]

Now, I think if they would review the curriculum, and shorten the timeframe, you would get more people stepping up to attend.

And how would you know the curriculum needs to be changed? I attended the CPO Academy and think it works just fine. Like others have said already, sign up for the class that you want, show up with a good attitude and i'm sure you will find it worth your time.

[MKC Tony McKinnon]

I would have to agree with Ronnie. There is really no extra time to shorten and I wouldn't want to. As far as the group and individual assignments you are jam packed. The 100.00 is to cover the class dues (coffee mess, snacks, cups, field trips etc...). You are not required to bring a dinner dress uniform. That is an optional wear for the dinner. All you need is a bow tie and mini-medals. Lastly the dinner ticket was 20.00 for guests. The meal that was furnished was WELL worth it. I had a great time meeting other Chiefs and would reccomend ALL Chiefs to go. It is worth the 5 weeks.

[MSTC F Bizzell]

I agree that the CPOA is ours and we need to support it. I do not think we have reached the point where we need to make it a mandatory thing other than for those who want to advance to Senior etc.

My thought is this, it takes both a good attitude/open mind for those who attend and good pub by those presenting the course.

COMDT recently made ICS courses at different levels for the entire CG. You would not believe the number of calls we get a day complaining about the requirement. The next statements that follow after that usually are along the lines of needing the course to get thier " Ticket Punched" for thier potential next assignment. This is coming from O-3' s and up. Instead of telling them to stop whinning and just show up, we explain to them the benefits outside of the CG that the courses would bring to them and how it will help them in thier current assignment.

By the time we are done selling them the course, they have called a few friends and told them they need the course as well. COMDT/NSFCC puts out a quarterly news letter to let poeple know what issues and or changes are coming and uses myself, an LT, and a GS-13 to sell the program.

As a result we see more students come to our courses with an open mind and really looking to get more than a ticket punched. My point is it takes both sides of the coin to make a coin and it will take a concentrated effort on both sides to get the results the organization wants to see and achieve via our CPOA.

AND Yes, I will be attending the CPOA in late 07 to early 08 due to operational needs in my current job.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Freddie,

I like your corollary to the mandated ICS Course -- I strongly disagree with you about keeping the CPO Academy optional unless you want to make E8 -- Talk about "just punching a ticket" mentality!

[ETC Chuck Thompson]

It is important to give training to young leaders as soon as possible. The sooner you give training on leadership issues, the more likely that the training will stick. I think that the MCPO-CG is working on the most important issue that he could have an effect on, PO leadership training. Why can’t we have a LAM’s type training as part of “A” school? You don’t make E4 until you have completed the course.

MCPO-CG stated that having additional leadership training for Petty Officers could be affected by Chief’s not attending the CPOA. It’s the first job of a leader to take care of your people. Take care of your people by getting additional training, leading the way, and by at a minimum not getting in the way. The CPOA is filled with a bunch of other Chiefs both as students and instructors. I just don’t understand the resistance to going.

[MSTC F Bizzell]

Steve,

I see your point. I guess I am a little confussed as to why this has become such a big issue now. Why the push now? Is there talk of us losing funding for the CPOA based on attendance?

[BMCM Deane Smith]

I see your point. I guess I am a little confussed as to why this has become such a big issue now. Why the push now? Is there talk of us losing funding for the CPOA based on attendance?

Freddie...Go to the link below and read it. It might answer your question.


http://cgchiefs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=660

[MSTC F Bizzell]

Thanks for the link Senior. I had'nt read MCPO-CG's comments in a while.

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

MCPO-CG stated that having additional leadership training for Petty Officers could be affected by Chief’s not attending the CPOA.

I thought all "new" CPO's were suppose to attend the CPO Academy? Did the rules change ... again ?

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

John, soon came sooner than you think, I'm already here. And there is one SCPO in the class that I will meet tomorrow.

Joe, the rules are changing. CMC Isherwood has already given the final friendly warning. People need to apply for a class that's convenient for them, or wait for the orders someone else cuts for them. And the grandfather claus will be going away also.

They already try and set aside 3-4 seats for those 8s and 9s every class. By the MCPO-CG's message, I think the intent is to allow them to add that experience to the rest of the class.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Freddie,don't take this the wrong way, I'm only quoting you because you are saying what so many people, including myself, have already tried to use.....
AND Yes, I will be attending the CPOA in late 07 to early 08 due to operational needs in my current job.

...... they'll tell you that no one person is needed that badly. The D7 GB attended while he was the OinC of a Patrol Boat. If it gets to the point where they cut you orders, your unit will see that they could have actually sent you at any time. Getting you out of those orders is going to have to come from the District level. I doubt your command would even write the request.

Disclaimor....... this is not intended as a slam on anyone........ but if you're unit honestly can't survive without you for 33 days they need to request that you recieve SDAP. They also need to confine you to the unit, to prevent anything from happening to you on your way to or from work.
No one is that vital to the unit.

[BMCS Ian McVicker]

I attended in 2003, and without a doubt it was the best 35 days I have spent in the CG. Different people are going to take different things from the CPOA, but everyone will walk away with something. The networking you will gain from the course is worth the time alone.

It does mean time away from home, but we should all be used to that at this stage of our career. Well worth the time.

Stu...Do they still give the "Cats and Hats" brief the first day?

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Disclaimor....... this is not intended as a slam on anyone........ but if you're unit honestly can't survive without you for 33 days they need to request that you recieve SDAP. They also need to confine you to the unit, to prevent anything from happening to you on your way to or from work. No one is that vital to the unit.

AMEN STU! I will add this if you dont mind. If your unit can't make it 33 days without you, you Chief are not training your replacement like you should be! I think most "units" are the chiefs themselves not wanting to leave thier work to someone they have not trainined well enough.

And as most of you know, I went as an OINC of an ANT with no XPO. Left the place to the EPO and he did fine.

[ITC Shawn Wichelns]

I don't have the experience that most of you do, so I read around here mostly.

Here is my take: If you are waiting until people are Chiefs to give training, it is too late. People have already impacted the lives of others and developed their leadership style. This training should be given long before you get to this point. In some cases, people are running their own shops as E-6's and E-7's long before they ever attend this optional training. If we want leadership in our ranks, we should teach it as people are developing, not after they are on scene. Yes, keep it, it works, but we need to bone up on development of the ranks.

So I say give a real Army like 'NCO' academy, then another when you make Chief. Make them mandatory, ie: you must have an STTR on file within 6 months of picking up rank. However realize that this will not work for all candidates: ie: I'm in a school program now, there is no way I can go. Same for those in independant duty billets. Sending it through the 0-5 level if you turn down a school, okay fine, if they know why you are turning it down., I wouldn't want my name showing up on someones 'black list' for the sake of having a list, when my intentions and career are unknown to said member.

We need to teach people these skills as they come up.

Continue to provide LAMS at A-school, but increase it rigor and length. If you need to add time to A-school classes so be it. If leadership is important, lets make it such.

Continue to provide Roadshows for the E-4, E-5 level. Make it mandatory for strikers and prior service or laterals prior to advancement, ie a Prac.

Create a senior 'NCO' academy. Model this 'NCO' school after CPOA, holding it as a TAD school requiring dedication, homework, stress, etc. As fast as we are making E-6's nowadays, the course should be a prereq to sitting for the E-6 SWE or selection in the absence of SWE. Also it should be part of the recommended for advancement consideration, so it is not washed over, skated past, forgotten/ignored. Create one 'NCO' academy at each Tracen to handle the load and modify the budget to provide accordingly. Treat the members like adults, but incorporate the A-school aspects of teamwork and military bearing. Yes, it will cost money but the benefits will be obvious in 5 years or less. WE have more responsibility than any other service, but somehow seem to think we don't need this????

just my 2cents,
ITC without a CPOA STTR on file sends

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Amen Shawn!

[MKC M. J. Petrich]

I agree 100% with Shawn, I to have no STTR on file for the CPOA and believe that because of my career decissions I should not be forced into a school that is best given to other members.

I also don't think that making it mandatory is a good idea.

[ITC Shawn Wichelns]

I also don't think that making it mandatory is a good idea.

For the NCO versions or for the CPOA?

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

It's never too late to do the right thing. It's never too late to teach someone how to do things the right way.

If someone is too old or set in their ways to change .............. things that are not flexible will break if you apply enough pressure to them. People that aren't willing to change/grow with the needs of their organization, need to look for another organization that meets their needs.

Give up on the idea of starting leadership training at a lower level. It isn't going to happen until we fill these seats. We won't fill these seats until people realize this training is for them. It needs to be mandatory because too many people aren't willing to see that. We need to mandate it because asking people to do what was right, didn't work.

[MKC M. J. Petrich]

I also don't think that making it mandatory is a good idea...The CPOA

I have 4 more years till retirement and feel that others can us the training.

[BMC John Phillips III]

I have to disagree with the last few posts. You may not think that the academy is for you, or you might have already attained all the leadership knowledge you think you need. But I will paraphrase what PACS said on another thread, just like the CCTI, you never stop learning.

I will agree that there are chiefs out there that are great leaders and they haven't attended the academy. The academy is about a lot more than leadership. It's about being a better Chief, a better person, and bettering yourself and the chiefs corps as a whole.

There were several people in my class (myself included) that just went to "punch their ticket." By the graduation, I don't think there was one person there that felt that's all they did. Our "Altus Tendo" winner a Command Senior Chief even admitted that he didn't think he was gonna learn something but he did.

You are all certainly entitled to feel the way you do about mandatory attendance for whatever your personal reasons are, but you cannot possibly make an educated opinion on the matter having not gone through.

As far as the NCO or junior leadership goes, from what I have heard this is on the horizon but not before we get all the chiefs through. We can't get funding for a new school if we can't fill the seats in the "old school."

[BMCM Deane Smith]

I have 4 more years till retirement and feel that others can us the training.

And that's why it should be mandatory. Who can use the training? Maybe someone with 5 years left? 6 years? What should the cutoff be?

[MSTC F Bizzell]

I would agree that there needs to be a cut off and or some way of factoring in a persons decision not to attend due to thier retirement approaching. I suggest that prior to orders being issued individuals are asked:

1. How many years of service do they have?
2. Are you retiring at the end of this tour?

If the person decides they are retiring or leaving the service at the end of thier current tour, make the CPOA optional. If they chose however to stay in, they will need to go to the CPOA. Sending a last tour person to training however beneficial to them has deminishing returns for the organization as a whole.

I believe we will still meet our goal and satisfy the need to show enough participation to justify funds for additional training at all levels of our enlisted ranks.

Just beacuse you make a mandatory requirement for us as chiefs to attend, does not mean the commands will be willing to let certain of us go.

I tried to attend the CPOA prior to a PCS to HQ last earlier this year. I was told no becuase they needed me ASAP and that while I was at HQ they did not know when they were going to be able to send me becuase of the nature of my assignment. I explained to then that I live approximately 20 minutes from the CPOA and it would be a plus to the unit if I arrived already having attended the CPOA especially since it is in my backyard. Again I was told no. I was really shocked and angry when I arrived and a chief from my same command got to go because he was not in the same type of billet I was. I have since transfered from that particular unit at HQ but you see my point here.

This was especially disturbing becuase the push to get all chiefs to go to the CPOA was coming from HQ yet a particular HQ command was denying me the chance to attend based on the needs of the unit.

So I get to that particular unit and sit there with the chief I was going to replace for 5 months and actually PCS from the unit before he does. (No, I am not a screw up but this particular unit was notorious for its mistreatment of its poeple and its chiefs in particular).

Now I am in a position where I have had hip surgery and will not be able to attend until late fall 07 to earlier 08. At that point I am looking a 2 years left to retire. What is the use then? Who holds the HQ command accountable for what was done?

I have made a choice to attend when I can, but I certainly do not look down upon those who may chose not to attend. Especially those who are winding down a career.

[BMC John Phillips III]

Please don't think I am disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing, but in my last post I didn't cover this. There were more than a few Chiefs in my class that said they had renewed faith and hope in the Chiefs Corps and Coast Guard in general. Some of them were pretty burnt out for different reasons.

I realize that money is an issue but you never know if the academy would change your mind about retiring.

Another thing to consider is that the academy reinforces living a healthier lifestyle which would carry you through your retirement. Not to mention "Bob."

It's pretty clear that I am a big supporter of the academy and I would advise anyone that gets a chance to go, to do just that. What have you got to lose? Not nearly as much as you have to gain...
....for once someone used the words "gain" and "lose" in a CPOA thread and wasn't talking about weight. ;)

Freddie, sounds like you got a raw deal. I have heard a few other stories similar to yours, hopefully things like that stop happening.

[AMTCM John Long]

Fellas,

I wouldn't worry too much about the "how much time you have left" thought. Just do it, get it over with, it ain't that big of a deal. It's possible you could find yourself in a position of having (or not being able) to attend till 19+ years and unable to retire at 20 because of the payback.

I mentioned this earlier so let me do it again and frame it this way using you guys above as the guinea pigs. If the training was mandatory to even sit for the E7 SWE, would you still feel the same way? Would you still want to hold out?

Stu,

I disagree about unable to change the audience level (ie...E6 level). We could change it with the stroke of a pen. I bet we'd never have an empty seat again. A hypothetical example, starting 1OCT10 (because of the 3 year budgetary cycle), all E6's wanting to take the E7 SWE must complete the Academy. Put it out this Friday and watch what happens. No need to make it mandatory. If an E6 doesn't want to attend (ie....have his/her name on the waiting list), that's fine, we can always use watch standers till they have to retire at 20. What's the problem??? If it's that important, we can make it happen.

Freddie,

Our class had a CPO with a bum leg, walking cane and all. He was able to attend. He PT'd with everyone else. Sit-ups, push-ups, walking/hobbling, etc. If your interested, maybe you can call up the Academy and see if you can still attend while you're recovering. Kill 2 birds with one stone. Whatever it takes to get-r-done!

Once the current surge of E7/8/9's get flushed thru the system, I would guess we should be back on track.

[BMCS Ian McVicker]

Freddie,

Our class had a CPO with a bum leg, walking cane and all. He was able to attend. He PT'd with everyone else. Sit-ups, push-ups, walking/hobbling, etc. If your interested, maybe you can call up the Academy and see if you can still attend while you're recovering. Kill 2 birds with one stone. Whatever it takes to get-r-done!

I'll second that Freddie. I cracked two of my ribs on the second day, and after making it clear that I was not leaving, the school staff was more than happy to work with me. We came up with a plan to ensure that I met all the requirements including physical, working around my injury to avoid aggrevating it as much as possible.

[MSTC F Bizzell]

Wow,

I did not think they would let someone in while recovering from a surgery but I will definately check into it. Thanks for the info.


While we are on the subject of requirements; has everyone gotten their ICS 100, 200, 700, and 800 taken care of? Please ensure that everyone at your unit who is required to take these courses as well as 300 (Officers included).
COMDT has put his foot down and is forcing all potential Sector CO's, deputies, etc to have the required courses to screen for command NLT July 07. A requirement for OinC's to have up to ICS 300 before board time is in the works. We may look at CPOA and the Factory as potential places we teach the courses in the future. ( You know, captive audience + requirement= compliance with COMDT) :)

John,

Oh yeah, my family and I got a very raw deal. It worked out for us in the end and I thank God I still had enough faith in the CG to hold on until the system corrected itself. I must say if it had not been for a few members in the Mess at HQ stepping in, I would still be stuck at HQ, in need of surgery and just angry as a wolf with lock jaw. :)

[AMTCM John Long]

John,

Oh yeah, my family and I got a very raw deal. It worked out for us in the end and I thank God I still had enough faith in the CG to hold on until the system corrected itself. I must say if it had not been for a few members in the Mess at HQ stepping in, I would still be stuck at HQ, in need of surgery and just angry as a wolf with lock jaw. :)

I've only been disillusioned with the CG once. That was coming out of A School and getting assigned to a TRACEN (Mobile). It was at a time of aircraft transition. We just got the Falcon, the 65 hadn't shown up yet. A young person was just a number there. When the 65 showed up, it went south quick. If it wasn't for just having a baby daughter and a detailer who who was honest enough to tell me there are better stations out there, I'd of been gone due to burnout and frustration. I did my obligation and was ready to RELAD and the detailer talked me into trying North Bend. Haven't looked back since. I guess maybe he knew something my young self didn't. Funny how things work out.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

If the person decides they are retiring or leaving the service at the end of thier current tour, make the CPOA optional. If they chose however to stay in, they will need to go to the CPOA. Sending a last tour person to training however beneficial to them has deminishing returns for the organization as a whole.

Freddie...Couldn't the same be said for the ICS training? I know it's a COMDT requirement, but you seem to be more passionate about ICS than the Chief Petty Officers Academy. That just doesn't seem to make sense to me.

[MKC M. J. Petrich]

Quote:
I disagree about unable to change the audience level (ie...E6 level). We could change it with the stroke of a pen. I bet we'd never have an empty seat again. A hypothetical example, starting 1OCT10 (because of the 3 year budgetary cycle), all E6's wanting to take the E7 SWE must complete the Academy. Put it out this Friday and watch what happens. No need to make it mandatory. If an E6 doesn't want to attend (ie....have his/her name on the waiting list), that's fine, we can always use watch standers till they have to retire at 20. What's the problem??? If it's that important, we can make it happen.
This may be a possible solution to the empty seats and may provide a better place in one's career for the training.

[MSTC F Bizzell]

Deane,

Yes I am very passionate about ICS becuase it is my job and I enjoy teaching it. I am also passionate about our CPOA. I just see some valid points being made on both sides of this discussion and I see us meeting our goal of getting chiefs to attend while allowing some exceptions.

Honestly I believe that once COMDT says attendance is mandatory, you will find less resistance by all involved. As I have stated before I will attend our CPOA and hopefully another SNCOA in FY07/FY08.

[MKC Art Bailly (ret)]

The CPOA might be an easier sell if the course content was changed. A week of BOB????. A day ok but to much bob. I got the impression when I was there that they were open to only the comments they liked and if there was a section that they liked then it wasn’t getting changed no matter what everyone else wrote in their comments. If its such a great course then why are people not attending? We sell the course. We go back to our units and people who haven’t attended the course ask what we thought of it. Our responses should be so positive that they cant resist and beg to attend. For me the Academy was more about how to better myself and that we need to look out for number one, allot about networking, a little about physical fitness and very little about all the things (programs, evaluations, reports, IDP’s excetera) we need to know as a chief.
Just my opinion.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

For me the Academy was more about how to better myself and that we need to look out for number one, allot about networking, a little about physical fitness and very little about all the things (programs, evaluations, reports, IDP’s excetera) we need to know as a chief.

Art read this again. Maybe, if you did look out for yourself and become that more stable, centered person, who knew their role in the organization, ...... and learned the networking skills, ..... and were a little healthier ......... the other stuff would come together.

And shouldn't you have been learning all that other stuff before you advanced to E-7 ?

Something that you might have missed from Bob........... Most organizations help people become better employees. Effective organizations now know the key is to help employees become better people.

[MKC Art Bailly (ret)]

Kinda of my point. This should be learned before we put on the anchor.