Super Boot v. The other brand(s)

[BMC Mark D. Emerson]

I post the following question to Master Chief Bowan in regards to the superboot bieng the mandiated boot that will be purchased with unit funds and how most people I had talked to found them to be uncomfortable. His office researched the whys and here is the reply I recieved. I thought that this would be the best forum to get the word out about why we use the superboot.

I sent up information for comparrison of a pair of HI-Tech boots that I have had great luck with for 5 years. So that is the comparrision that is refered to in the data.

Hope you find this helpful. The below is the body of the respose I recieved.

..A steel safety toe acts like a knife when it is compressed by a heavy load that exceeds the ANSI requirement (such as a steel buoy). The steel toe compresses without any recoil. (Ever step on a tin can and watch what happens?) The advantage of a composite safety toe is that when the excessive load is removed, it recoils back to its original shape allowing the member to remove his foot from the damaged boot without leaving the toes behind in the boot!
Now if someone wants to save some money by buying steel toe safety boots and risk loosing their toes, so be it. Personally, I would rather spend a few extra dollars and keep my toes...

...Also noted is that the comparison boot mentions nothing on waterproof or being breathable, Or even caring Gore-Tex or similar waterproofing membrane like the super boot.

There's another problem there are no longer steel toe makers in this country. All have mover to other countries. This might pose a policy/money problem.

Some info was paraphrased to save time, but what we currently have a very safe, top of the line product for our personnel.

[BMCS T. D. Ellis]

As far as steel vs composite safety boots, watch Mythbusters. They busted the myth of steel toe boots cutting off toes. In a nutshell, you need somewhere between 600 and 1,200 pounds before the cap contacts the toes, let alone cuts off the toes.

If it's the high end, it won't matter what you have on your feet, your toes are gone. If I have 1200 pounds on my feet, I probably have bigger problems.

Now I probably won't use Mythbusters for a reference, but the visual is definitely an eye opener.

[BMC Mark D. Emerson]

I just looked for it on the web and was episode 42.

[MSTC SJ Natale]

In what used to be the "M" world we could sometimes justify the use of different boots for other safety issues.

Up here in AK we recently tried to justify the purchase of a Danner safety toed hiking style boot. We regularly work in rocky/wet/COLD areas where the "Superboots" do not perform well at all. We have been given rubber, steel toe "Xtra-Tuffs" (Alaskan dress boots) but they still do not provide the best traction or cold weather protection. We were denied the purchase due to "superboots" being the only boots available to us.

This just recently happened so we havent tried round 2 yet, but it certainly seemed to be a battle that wasnt going to be won anytime soon.

[ETC (FT type) Ed Shank]

Here's a thought, suck it up and if you need something else, buy it with your own money. The Coast Guard gives us the tools to do a job. If you personally feel that you need something else then buy it. The CG spends a lot of money on R&D and does a lot of testing on products before they sign off on them. Survey's are given, results are compiled and official data is released. At a recent unit, we were missing a 9/16th wrench from a set. In comes a PR for new wrench sets. A quick walk down through the tool boxes reveals that if we take ALL the wrenches from out of all the places we were able to make 5 complete sets of matching wrenches, and 4 more complete sets that might not have been all the same manufacturer. We waste so much money in the CG buying stuff. Everyone thinks the CG owes them something. If you don't like the superboot, go out and buy your own set that you do like.

[MSTC SJ Natale]

Although I have sucked it up and bought my own personal boots that I like much more than "superboots" I will NOT wear them out in some of our work environements. They do not provide good cold protection nor do they provide good water protection (neither do the superboots).

As an example I just sent out two petty officers this week with camping supplies to spend up to two nights monitoring a clean-up crew on a remote island. They took with them thier USCG issued X-TRA Tuffs, but we have found them severely lacking in cold protection and traction, the last thing I need is one of them getting frost-bit toes or falling getting hurt out there.

The USCG buys us all other kinds of PPE, unfortunately the USCG sees the "superboot" as the end all of uniform footwear.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Just a question....... but isn't the Super Boot II the only one authorized for boat force people ?

[BMC Ken Gouge]

OK, agree with the "suck-it-up" theory. It is nice when we are authorized nice things out of AFC-30 money. If you spend more than a little time trying to get something authorized when it is not (ie. looking for loopholes) it borders on fraud and misappropriation...

That being said, if you are in a cold weather environment you should be authorized cold weather PPE. The superboot is a uniform item, not PPE. There are cold weather boots (like the old mickey-mouse boots) that with modern technology are now easier to wear, lighter, have composite toes and have removable thinsulate liners. The boots are unit issue returnable items, the liners are yours to keep. Same as the Parkas, the shell is the units, the fleece is yours.
I beleive Hi-Tech makes one but I'm sure there are others.

[BMC Mark D. Emerson]

The "Suck it up Factor" I can deal with that is not the issue it is the isue for my non-rates that report here from bootcamp, are out on the small boats, working on aids, dragging chain, getting covered in bouy critters and mud, using chain saws and every other job nonrates do. Do to the nature of the work we in the ATON Community do we are authorized to replace foot wear once a year do to the high wear we put on the boots.

The Superboot is about $140.00 each where as other boots are half the price and are more comfortable and in my opinion more durable. I want to buy/ use authorized funding for a quality boot and not waste the CG's money. If I used a different boot I could save my unit more than $1000.00 dollars each year. Money that can be spent for other safety equipment.

Every area will have different requirements that can not be addressed by one boot for all of them. I.E. I belive that the some rates and positions require different ANSI rated boots for shock protection, if you read the regs these are not authorized to be purchased for them since it is not the superboot.

my point with this is that if enough peopole visited this issue as a collective whole we could save the CG money by finding a better or less expensive boot or the R&D types could find the "SUPERBOOT 3".

I guess the uniform focus in on wether or not we should have shirts that can be left untucked.

[BMCS T. D. Ellis]

We are in Northern Maine and have money budgeted for cold weather PPE. However, there are things out there that I like to use out there that are not issued by the unit. I buy them myself because I am going to be comfortable and warm and when I move on, I will have them.

I routinely get requests for Oakley safety glasses and the such and I routinely look them in the eye and turn them down. We don't buy the cheap syuff but I am not going to pay $150 for safety glasses. I see alot of these purchases as vanity and I'll d***ed if I am going fund that. If you want to look cool, buy it yourself.

The other good thing is that we are frugal with our spending and when I go to District for money (we are a district unit) for training or operating funds, I am never questioned about it. Mostly it's, "How much do you need Senior?" Too many times I've seen units crying poverty with money in the bank and asking for money. This year in 1st District, the money guy looked at people's balance and if they had money in their account, he basically told them to go screw.

I'll get off my soap box and back on subject. The Commandant has set the policy for boots so that's what I have to work with. If I want to change it, I'll go through the proper channels.

[BMCS Ian McVicker]

COCO ALERT 06-15: PURCHASE OF SAFETY BOOTS “SUPER BOOT” WITH APPROPRIATED FUNDS.

This policy only applies to Boat Force personnel, covered under the Rescue and Survival Systems Manual, and only under certain circumstances. This policy does not apply to ATON units replacing boots found to be unsafe due to being worn down due to operations and environment. There are a couple of other examples of folks that this policy does not apply to, and I can post if anyone is interested. The Office of Financial Policy, CG-843, has the following info posted on their info page in CG Central:

"However, if you are conducting a mission where the safety boots that the members currently own will not suffice, then you may purchase a pair of boots as Organizational Clothing. However, you must establish in clear terms why the current boots that the members currently use (i.e. Superboot II) will not work – you can’t purchase boots based on personal preference. Bottom line: most members have the Superboot II and that boot is sufficient for nearly every mission we do. "

"Here’s a current and valid example of where the Superboot II is not sufficient:
While working ATON, the member is required to climb towers – the Superboot II does not provide adequate metatarsal support & the after market supports do not meet the minimum safety requirements because they are too bulky. In this case it would be appropriate to purchase and issue safety boots as Organizational Clothing.
Follow the policies in the Uniform Regulations for issue."

Now, if there is an ATON unit in the CG that does not have people climbing something (Tower, Buoy, ect..) I have not heard about it. So, for the ATON units, as long as you do the following you should be all right:

1. Have something in your SOP stating condition boots would be purchased.
2. Purchase Safety Boots that meet the Safety Requirements, including meeting the climbing requirement.
3. Issue on AF-538.
4. Mbr turns in old, unsafe pair for disposal.

Everything I have found says you will be within policy if you meet these requirements.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

And this is where I see the problem arising..... then you may purchase a pair of boots as Organizational Clothing.

Operational clothing can be bought with 30 funds. Organizational Clothing ???????

[BMCS Ian McVicker]

[QUOTE=BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]And this is where I see the problem arising..... then you may purchase a pair of boots as Organizational Clothing.

Operational clothing can be bought with 30 funds. Organizational Clothing ???????[/QUOTE

Yes, but... you have to meet the requirements whether it be unit, mission, ect...Now if your a YN sitting at ISC, than no your not going to get boots. If your that young lad or lady on the buoy deck and your current pair of boots are considered to be in a unsafe condition, than yes. The boots fall under Safety and Environmental Health, which we are authorized to purchase items for.

Everything I read this morning stated that the Super Boot was required if unit spent 30 funds, except for:

Aviation
Marine Inspectors
MSST unit conducting Vertical Insertion Operations
ATON (specifically for climbing)

If your at a STA and get a new mbr coming on board with a new pair of boots that meet the safety requirements, then they cannot be issued a new pair until there current boots are unusable. If the mbr needs to keep a pair in really good condition (inspection ready) than they have to buy another pair out of pocket.

If your on a River Tender and you get a new BM3 that shows up with a pair of super boots, and your going to have him climbing a tower, then the boot does not meet the requirement.

I'll tell you one thing though, I've got one hell of a headache after looking through all this stuff.

[BMCS Ian McVicker]

Belay my last. After all that I received a response back this afternoon explaining that the info provided was only for 1 Aton unit. The rule does not apply to all ATON units across the board, and each individual unit would have to submit a waiver request, in which proving why the Super Boot would not meet the Safety requirement.

Excuse me while I go pound my head against the bulkhead.

[BMC Mark D. Emerson]

In regards to the climbing issue. I have read and re-read the climbing manual for gear and I can't find anything on the requirement for footwear. It just states a safety boot.

Can anyone provide me with the reference. My guys that recently completed tower school can't find any information on it.

Mark

[ETC Pat Kaschube]

Though my tower climbing knowledge is rusty my ET1 is somewhat of a tower guru. You are correct the only requirement is for a safety shoe. It is reccomended that a steel shank safety boot is used to prevent fatigue to the climber if they are on the tower for any length of time. Should be obvious why. Unfourtunately this is not a requirement. If I were buying boot for tower climbing I would look for the steel shank.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Why not just argue with whats under Govt Contract. Bellevill and Carolina boots come to mind.

[BMC Mark D. Emerson]

Thanks Burt

[BMCS Ian McVicker]

Burt, I don't think it's an issue of arguing gov contract. I'm being told by COCO that it's mandated if you use 30 funds to purchase boots you have to buy the Super Boot II from UDC. The only exception is if you submit a detailed, written waiver request though the COC to HQ for approval.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Ian, why isn't that making it everywhere? Ask her that!

[BMCS Ian McVicker]

Yeah, I know Burt. I had been hearing talk of this for a couple months, and had finally sent an e-mail out asking about it. It came out in COCO Alert 06-15, dated 29NOV05, almost a year ago. It is based on a mandate out of the RSSM about the Super Boot. I did not receive the alert when it originally went out, but am working on it now. I e-mailed the Sector and told them when I get off leave I would compile all of the info and submit to them, so that they could submit a waiver request for all the Sector units. The issues I have with the boots are the price, and the lack of support for tower climbing. I'll let you know what happens.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Ok Ian so you purchase the other boo ts under a GSA contract. What happens? You get a CFO Audit and a gig, so what! A COCO ALert vs a required source makes for a great arugument!

[MKC Timothy Pettengill]

I can't say enough for the Super Boot II..

I've had my current pair for 4 years now and they shine up so well you see yourself in them. The leather is very high quality. When you look closely a my boots you'll see they are cut up and marred pretty good but the wax does a great job filling in all the imperfections.

I've gone through the $200 plus dollar Redwings, the Galls boots and the cheapo $50 Kmart boots.. None have survived half of which I have dished out to my SBII's.

Take that from a Chief MK who puts them through the wringer...

for what its worth..