Duty.

[DCC Mitchell Penneau]

Ok here is the situation. I have been running the OOD watch rotation and qualification process here at this unit for the last 18 months or so. After 9/11 all E-6 and above were assigned Group OODs and at that time there was a total of 11 to 13 of us depending on things as leave. It was decided by the Group CO that Chiefs would come out of the rotation and that competent E-4 to E-6 would take the watch. Due to several let’s call them conflicts it was decided that a Chief needed to be in charge and set the tone as well as enforce the standards, as I said I took the "job". It was decided that the OODs would pick there duty days and somehow and for some reason E-6s did not have duty on weekends or holidays.

Now fast forward to now. Because the duty picking has become a long and drawn out process sometimes taking over an hour for these people to make there picks for the month I changed the rotation to a straight rotation, as of now there are 23 qualified OODs with 7 B/I OODs so once all the B/Is get qualified there 30 OODs. Now the E-6s in the rotation are complaining that they should not have to stand watch or duty of any kind, in there words we work more hours then the E-5 and below and we there should be some kind of RHIP going on here. I also made the decision to place the E-6 POs in the rotation and they will sometimes have to stand duty on a weekend. There were several reasons for this decision, I already stated one, but others are things such as a duty MK working until 2200/2300 hours on a Friday then having duty on a Saturdays and right after duty having to run parts all over to stations and so on. I feel these senior POs should not be out of the rotation and they feel they deserve to be out of the rotation, and are really Bi@ching about it, and they are not even careful about who hares there gripping, so now besides having to deal with the E-6s, I am getting complaints from the E-5 and below about this as well as the E-5 and below being concerned about what will happen to the rotation if the 1st classes come out of the watch, then there are the senior E-5s that are starting to feel they should not have to stand watch.

The command here has given me the job as senior watch coordinator and has stated several time that I can do what I want/need to do with the OOD watch, as long as "all watch requirements are covered" I also talked to all department heads and the XO before I took the watch to a straight rotation and as I said I was told whatever you think is best Chief.

I do not believe it would be fair or correct to take the E-6s out of the rotation, there are 7 qualified OODs with 3 as B/I OODs.

So here are the questions to be considered.
1) Should the E-6s be taken out of the rotation?
2) Do I continue to let OODs pick there days, but ensure that the E-6s also stand duty on weekends?
3) Do I let them pick but keep E-6s off weekend duty?
4) Do I just run with the straight rotation?

I have set up a meeting with the POs in question for next Friday. But I guess my point is this, the watch is not hard at all, and it is only one day of duty a month. I guess some people do not know how good they have it on a shore station. I know this is beside the point but I can remember the days of 1 in 3-4 rotation and 1-6 at best.

[BMC Ken Gouge]

Mitchell,
Please tell them they are welcome to get underway with me, break in 1 in 3 for underway watches, 1 in three in-port until they get qualified, not see home for months and visit lots of third world countries...

Ken

[PACS Steve Carleton]

As I see it, keep them in the watch rotation and keep it a straight rotation. If they have a problem with it, then they need to ensure that a qualified replacement can trade a day with them.

I am not sure, if you "job" entails it, but perhaps once a month have you or another CPO stand a watch as reminder that there is no such thing as RHIP. Besides 1:30 rotation during the month sheesh what's to complain about?

I coordinate the duty roster for my team, with four people it is pretty easy to do. There are many times throughout the year that I have taken the duty back-to-back weeks simply becauuse we didn't have the people around. I have also hauled all of my response gear on training trips etc. in the event that I have to divert.

Our duty is cell phone recall and usually means coordinating the travel and admin duties required to get one or two of us on the road in a very short period of time. Sometimes the person with duty goes, but not always, it depends on the magnitude and location of the response.

We have a running joke in the office that Chief and the CWO do not take duty over three day weekends, but if you look back over this year's calendar, I had the duty for two three day weekends already this year.

[OSC Donald McClain]

Mitchell,

Straight rotation has my vote. I've done watch schedules as well as standing some pretty screwed up watchs - because the person in charge of the schedule (LT with no watch standing experience) decided he didn't want to work nights and/or weekends - and the schedule was pretty screwed up.

With a straight rotation - its equal and fair.

If one of the E-6's can provide a better idea or option for a watch rotation - have him present it to you - other wise - tell them to stop complaining.

[ENS Craig Dente (OSC)]

THE ROAD TO HELL IS PAVED WITH GOOD INTENTIONS

A straight rotation is the only way. On my second WPB, I tried working the schedule so the same people wouldn't get stuck with weekends and holidays, etc. It gets complicated and confusing, and somebody always has to complain about something. Going to a straight rotation will take a lot of stress out of making the duty schedule.

My opinion is to leave the E-6s in it. Maybe even think about creating another watchstation so their rotation isn't so fat, if they can't handle the 1 in 28. I know a lot of CPOs, Warrants, and Os that stand watch. It keeps you sharp. People complaining about a 1 in 28 rotation is absolutely ridiculous and an insult to all of the hard working folks in the fleet.

[DCC Mitchell Penneau]

First of all thanks to all that posted on this subject. I to believe the straight rotation is the only way to go. As I said I am holding a meeting with these 1st class POs on Friday. I had already decided to make the meeting a one way convercation, but it was a matter of what I would say. I have thought about this for a while and have talked it over with the three other Chiefs in my department and the concensis was the straight rotation, and then I thought about this site and wanted to seek out opinions of others from around the Guard and see if anyone had a different idea. I see we all think along the same lines for the most part.

Steve I am all for the CPOs syanding a watch sometimes, but the CO has made it very clear to me on several occasions that he does not want any Chiefs in the rotation, I gave my oppinion as well as my input about the subject, and like you I think that a Chife standing the watch once in a while to show that we are willing to do what needs to be done, but again the CO will have no part of it. I do take duty for the crew when there is an emergency or if a stiuation warrents it, and I have done so on more then one occasion. I thought that by doing so I was helping out the crew, but I see my efforts were either not noticed by the crew or not apprecated.

Craig, I agree 1 in 28 is nothing to complaine about, whet more do some people want. It is absolutely ridiculous to have a bit@h about the rotation as it is now seeing as the watch is so very easy and when I have stood the watch for someone I used the time to catch up on my paper work.

Donald, The better idea they came up with is to be completly out of the watch rotation, and to me that is unexceptable. I view it as setting a bad exampel to those below them, as well as a lack of team work and leadership. These 1st calss petty officers make there opinions very clear to all, bit@h to eachother no matter who is there with them, be it another E-6 or a E-3,4 or 5, and these junior people listen to what they saty because they are after all leaders and roll modles. The Chiefs here try to keep such talk in check but you know you can't be every place at the same time.

Ken, I am with you, put them all on a big white one and then let them complaine, but you know out of the 7 of the E-6s here only one has any sea time and he has nothing to say about the watch except " duty is a fact of military life, deal with it" if there would be anyone that I would take out of the watch it would be him.

Again thanks all for the input.

Mitch

[BMCS Dennis Endicott (Ret)]

Mitch- I'd say you had made up your mind to keep the straight watch rotation with the E-6s firmly in place before you wrote this post. Good for you! I'd have done the same thing.

It sounds like your looking for some validation that you've made the right decision, and you know that your not going to get it from those that your decision effected. Right again. Even the guys that are happy with your decision probably won't tell you so.

My intuition tells me that your not comfortable with your role as senior watch coordinator, and more specifically, not comfortable with directing others to do an unpleasant task of which you will not share. You attempted to reintroduce the chiefs into the rotation, made a point to write that you have and are willing to stand watch, and repeatedly discussed the situation with those involved. As chiefs, we are often required to make other people do unpleasant tasks that we will not be doing ourselves. That's part of the job. Ironically, that was one of the lessons that I was taught during my CCTI.

Why do all of your junior enlisted (E-6s included) feel that they can grouse so openly? There is something missing if they feel it is acceptable to complain to anyone that will listen. It's unprofessional and counter to good order and discipline. I don't think that this problem rests with the E-6s. I think it originates with their supervisors. Maybe it's time to hold a real Chief's Call and get things straightened out.

[DCC Mitchell Penneau]

Dennis< Uor correct I was going to make the change to a straight rotation, but it is always good to get advice and in put from others out side the command. It can be halpful to get insite from others not directly invalved. You are also correct it is not always plesent to have to make a decision that is going to be unpopular, but as you corretly stated sometimes we have do do it. As far as being uncomfortable with being the seinor watch coordinator, that is reall not the case, but it can be a pain at times and you no no matter what you do when making the watch scedual it is going to upset someone. And it is ture making a decision to have someone do an unplesent task and then watch them do it is also a part of what we as supervisors have to do, but I also feel that sometimes we as supervisors should step in and do the task along side them, but not always or as often the those below us.

As for why the junior enlisted (E-6s included) feel they can grip about things so openly I have some ideas why they do. Things here are quite diferen them when you were OINC at one of the Groups stations. There has been a turn over of command as well as the addition of new Chiefs. I don't want to point any fingers, but the fact is that there are several of the E-6s here that have a very large "halo" over there heads and quite often they get what they want when the complain, is it right??? No. This watch issue has also in a way devided the mess here at the group with the Chiefs of the complaining PO1s taking there side and then the other Chiefs agreeing with me. Again this is something that for whatever reason has gotten out of hand and it is being addressed, you right this kind of things is unprofessional and counter to good order and discipline.People are going to grip no matter what, but when they don't pay attention or care who is there when they grip is wrong, it gives the junior personnal the idea they can do it to.

As for a Chiefs call, we are working on that, the mess here has grown quite a bit at the Group, we have had the addition of 1 MKC, 1 EMC, 1 BMC as well as 2 OSC billets also the ESD here has 2 CPOs the total number of Chiefs here at the Group now stands at 9 and besides myself and MKC Baham all of them have just arived here. We have has several informal meetings and the Command just asigned a new Command Chief and he is very pro-active and having a Chiefs call here is high on his list of things to do.

[BMC John Anders]

Were recovering the boarding team and small boat soon, then I'm headed on watch, so I'll keep this short...

It really hits a nerve with me when people ashore complain about duty.

Don't get me wrong. I enjoy being at sea, it's not easy, but I enjoy it.

I'll send an open invitation (just as Ken did) for anyone to get underway for 8-10 weeks (1in3, 1in4) watch rotation, boardings all hours of the day/night, Saturday's, Sunday's, you name it!....Then pull into homeport to stand some more duty (normally no better than 1in5), Only to get underway in six weeks to start the cycle all over again.

Good day,

john


"Sundays....Holiday routine for some.........routine for others"

[DCC Mitchell Penneau]

You got it right John, I have been there and know just what you mean. After five different cutters, and doing three back to back to back, I also get just a bit up set at this kind of thing. As I said very few of them have any sea time at all, I will never understand the mind set that this is just a 9 to 5 job that so many of the juinor people have, it is not, we are on duty 24/7 and people have to remember that, as well as to be reminded of it also, and that is sad that they do have to be reminded of it.


Mitch

[CWO Keith Wilbee (DCCS)]

These are the issues that we Chiefs in Sitka Alaska regularly talk about in our Wednesday meetings. Yes every Wednesday. We currently stand about 1/13. We also pick our days. We have a microsoft outlook calendar set up, that everyone just fills there name into, it works pretty well. You just access it from your email account, pretty simple to set up. Every one just picks, by the end of the month if not totally filled in, then the senior Chief standing duty with us, fills it in. Or we just take the bull by the horns and fill it in. We only have two E-6's standing with us. We are OOD's. One month I will stand two days, the next month I will stand three. Works pretty well for us, but If those E-6's cant be responsible enough to do the right thing Mitch, make them do it. Once your name is on our calendar you cant change it, chits/or verbal communication has to happen so the senior OOD, knows who has duty. And who doesnt. The best duty Ive ever stood before this was about 1/8 on a WLB-225. As an E.O.W. I stood throttle watch on a 210 WMEC, at about 1/6. Flying bridge/helm on another WLB 180. Chiefs need to set the tone, its not a do as I ask CG, its a do as I have done, and the right thing, if they arent responsible enough to fill in your schedule, just do it for them. Round them all up, and tell them the unvarnished truth. If it gets real ugly, by any of them, pull there quals and make them break in again at 1/3 until your satisfied. Although that might be more difficult. Im with you....

[MKC Pat Lefebvre]

Hey Mitch, NEXT WATCH..........I'll be at your meeting on Friday (if you want). Maybe we can change the entire rotation to implement "duty sections" and have regular "u/w" watches set up for the group, I'm sure the very vocal E6's would stop complaining about one day a month, if they stood duty every 4th day, and had to get up at 0230 for the 4-8 in the am! On another note having been on ALL sides of this issue, I still feel that you should place he ownership with the senior E6's to create an equitable watch rotation. if they want to utilize the "rhip" thing then let them prove that their up to the task, you can maintain the overall approval and supervision of the sections, however, let them do all the scheduling work and conflict resolution.

Pat

[DCC Mitchell Penneau]

Pat, not sure if your going to read this today, but I have an idea on how to run this duty rotation. I will give you my idea in the AM tomarrow. Also you are more then welcome to attend the "meeting". I am going to tell then what I expect,who is going to be included in the rotation, w hat days they are expected to have (weekdays/weekends) as well as when the list has to be to me for aproval and distrabution to the OODs. I know there will be a few unhappy campers but that is how it is going to be. :mad:

Then as you said-
"if they want to utilize the "rhip" thing then let them prove that their up to the task" :confused:
If they can do that, and stick to it adjustments can be made latter on. :D

See you bright and early in the AM, man don't you love leave...LOL :eek:

[MKC Art Bailly (Ret)]

Steve since when does RHIP not exist?? Rank does have it’s privileges. Having said sounds like you have a bunch of immature and whinny E-6’s. Here on a 225 WLB we pick our duty days. The way we do it is that we put numbers in a hat for the amount of watch standers there are. Who ever get the 1 picks first and so on. On rule that we have is that weekend days get picked first then once all the weekend days get picked we start picking the week days. Once we get more people qualified the chiefs only stand duty on Wednesday’s. RHIP does have it privileges and as long as its not abused it’s ok to use it. For instance – Its abused when the chief pulls himself out of the rotation completely but not abused when he stand a couple of days a month. Or when the E-6 and below get short you jump in and take a day or 2 for them. We do it on the ship how hard can it be on shore??

[OSCS Jimmy D. Belcher]

It sounds to me like the kindler gentler Coast Guard is taking place here. I agree with letting people have there input but enough can be enough. My present station and my previous unit had this same scenario where you cannot please everybody. Eventually it came down to this. As the Chief we made the final decision. All involved were told they said I do for the next 4 years so DO. It is like a cook trying to please everybody. It is not possible and until one person makes the final decision it will remain an issue.

Everybody has a reliuctance to change. Attrition will take care of it. As the older members transfer and new people come into the rotation they begin and stay at the rotation dictated. Complaints finally go out until somebody new comes in who had a better rotation at their previous unit. Then the suggestions will start again but the command needs to stick with their original decision.

[GMC Thomas Hogge]

Looks like everyone else has pretty much said everything I would have on this. Keep the straight rotation. If the CO does not want the chiefs in the rotation, maybe he would agree to having a chief rotation as an extra watch on, for example, the third Tuesday of the month. Sounds like the work load does not need even that.
If all they have to complain about is a 1 in 28 duty rotation, they have it better than any unit I have been at in the last 27 years.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

It's been awhile since I have posted, I had an unannounced TAD trip. Now its time to get back to the boards and catch up.

Art -- I said that RHIP doesn't really exist simply because you (we/I ) are always junior to somebody else. From the description that Mitch was making of those E6's I was making the stand that they need to throw that argument out the window.

Yes, there are times when RHIP does exist, I, for one have used it, especially when I went to a Navy facility and the sign said CPO and Officer in uniform have head of the line privleges.

My point is know when to use it and act accordingly when you do. Trying to get out of a watch rotation, is not the time to throw down the RHIP Card.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott (Ret)]

Mitch,
So, how did it turn out?

[DCC Mitchell Penneau]

Senior: Here’s the end of the story. I first out lined what the plan was with the other Chiefs here, talked to the department heads as well as the Group XO, my plan was a straight rotation. I found who the senior first was and told him how the duty was going to work. Here it is.
The senior first is now the senior watch stander, and he makes the watch list, all leave and such has to be to him by the 15th of the month, IE all leave wanted for October has to be to the senior watch stander by the 15 of September, the senior watch stander then makes the watch list and has to have it to me by the 20th, I remain the senior watch coordinator, and have final approval on all thing pertaining to the watch. I approve the watch and send it out to all watch standers by the 25th on the month.
The senior watch stander falls out of the watch rotation and is available for emergencies and unplanned changes.

So I then met with all the E-6s and told them how it was going to work, as well as why the decision was made. I let them know that there crying and complaining in front of the junior Pos was unacceptable and the decision is final and that is that. Needless to say there was a bit of complaining during the meeting and it was put to an end very fast.

Then there was a meeting with E-5 and below and told them how things were going to be run concerning the watch, they to a coasty were all for the idea and were happy with the decision, they liked the fact that the first classes were also going to pull there share of the weekends as well as holidays.

This was done on September 3ed and there has not been one single complaint heard from the E-6s by the junior personal, I do believe that these first classes got the message, so all in all I believe it was a success.

Thanks again for all the input and interest.

Mitch

[BMC Mark Lewis]

I have a different question about standing duty. I am the OIC and I am being asked by a BM2 to stand by for him. He is getting ready to rotate and it appears that I will have to go into the duty section when he does rotate. What do you all think?

I know when I was a BM3/2 I would never even thought to ask the OIC or XPO to stand by, but things change.

Also I have had to stand duty for various reasons in the past three years. I have stood duty for a total of about 8 months or which 5 months of it at one shot.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Mark...I can't even fathom a BM2 asking me to stand-by for them. Have you created an environement where that type of thing is OK?

As far as standing duty, I'm also the OINC of a station and I can't imagine standing duty. We're port & stbd and If I were standing duty, that would mean that I was in one section and the XPO was in the other. That would mean that no other BM's were qualified. Is your station so small that there are no other BM's or are there other problems?

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I think that the BM2 would have been the only other qualified watchstander if it got to the point where he asked me to stand by. I can understand where at a small unit the OinC could get to the point where you have to stand duty. I can't see where a BM2 asks you to stand by. That sounds like a situaton born more out of convenience than necessity.

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

Turn the situation around and look at it from his perspective. I was at an MLB station that had a two boat requirement. When it was time for me to PCS I could not take a day of leave along with that because I was needed in the duty rotation and when I left, one of the "surfgods" would have to stand in as duty coxswain and not get to go home in the PM. This situation may be a little different but the impact may be the same. If there is nobody else and the OIC will be standing the duty once he leaves, then I understand his point. I was certainly PO'd that I did not get to take care of family needs prior to my departure, and when I left it was with a bad taste in my mouth and I have never looked back. Consider your situation and the impact of your decisions. This is and should be an incredibly unusual circumstance, but if the circumstance warrants, do you make a small sacrifice for your member?

[BMCS Burt Ford]

I thought this over and remembered my Sta days as XPO. I used to offer to take duty as chits came across my desk just so I could use it as an opportunity to get underway and hold training. Now, I did out of nessecity stnad duty on a few occasions but think I would have absolutely lost it had some one asked the BMCS to take thier duty. AS XPO I would have known well before that guy left I would have a shortage. If i ever go back to a STA(Please no, you guys at one are doing GREAT!) and this came up, I would refer the BM2 to the XPO.

[BMC Kerry Wagoner]

Several things would have to happen before I would consider standing duty for the BM2.

First, the XPO either was not qualified or was already standing duty.
Second, if the BM2 stood duty it was going to create a big hardship on either himself/herself and their family.
Third, the unit would drop below their minimum boat requirements.

If all three issues were "yes", then and only then would I stand duty for the BM2. My opinion, as the Officer in Charge, if I was required to stand duty then the world was about to come to an end.

I would be wondering what happened (or did not happen) the months leading up to the BM2's departure. Someone, somewhere must have known the BM2 was departing and should have checked the qualifications of the other members at the unit. Now, if there were no others members at the unit who could relieve the BM2, then I understand, if not.....?

[BMC Mark Lewis]

Senior
My station has only 19 persons four of which are dayworkers. My XPO is on light duty and I have a BM2 on light duty. I think the reason he is asking because I did so in the past on special occasions. I stood the five months of duty because this same BM2 ran a boat aground and lost his quals for that time and I had just got there and there was no other coxswains. The BM2 that was going to be the coxswain in that section just went on light duty and I only have one other coxswain besides the one BM2 getting ready to leave. I am working on a BM3 that is close to getting qualified and hope he gets qualified prior to the BM2 leaving but if he does not, I am all there is for coxswains until the BM3 qualifies.

[ASTCS Ronny German]

What's the big deal? If he truly NEEDS you (your the only person at the station who is able) then you are doing what you need to do to complete your unit's mission.

I've been at Air Station's where the 0-6 Captain had to stand the occasional duty day due to pilot shortages.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Burt...you hit the nail on the head.

No BM2 would ever ask me to stand duty for them for one simple reason. That reason is...my XPO & myself would have already had long discussions on this matter WELL before any duty standing came into it. If I were standing duty because of a shortage, it would be WELL known to the crew. If not, the XPO would probably be looking for a new job.

Ronny...it's not about standing the duty. Any of us would do that, as needed. It's about the structure/chain of command at a small boat station. A BM2 shouldn't be asking the OINC to stand duty. The command cadre should recognize the shortfall and take appropriate action. If that action is the OINC standing duty, then that's that. I really doubt (correct me if I'm wrong) that the LTJG or LT went into the CAPT's office and asked him/her to take the duty for them. I would imagine that the CAPT had discussions with the XO/OPS prior to him/her taking the duty.

[BMC Kerry Wagoner]

I agree that, if it came down to performing the mission, then I would stand duty. We are currently going through something similiar with our engineers. We have three different platforms which means three different qualifications. A good engineer will take about four months to become fully qualified. Right now, I have exactly two fully qualified engineers. Which means that if either one needs or wants to take leave, then the EPO stands duty. Myself, the XPO and the EPO have already had the conversation about the quals and duty standing. The EPO has been front loaded with the possibility of standing duty, he fully understands and agrees. My break-ins are busting their rears to become qualified, but as we all know, it takes time.

I ahve seen this all too much recently. We get people right of out A-school with no experience. They are expected to become crew qualified then engineer qualified, not to mention BO and BTM. If I remember right, back when I was a BM3 or BM2 at a station, this was not a problem but I guess it comes with the times, good or bad we are stuck with it.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

At times, the AO's don't do us any favors either. During this past transfer season, I had several BM2's transferring. I think every one was replaced by a BM3. The AO told me that he didn't have the BM2's to send (which is probably true), but this hurts the unit in the long run. Because they're in BM2 billets, I need them to qualify as COXN's. Most of these BM3's are showing up with minimum experience and they're taking much longer to qualify. Most need to still pass their NAVRULS, which just adds more time. We're getting by because we have great people at my unit. But, when you're supposed to have 7 BM2's and 3 BM3's and in reality you have 7 BM3's and 3 BM2's...it hurts the unit in terms of how long it takes for them to get fully qualified.

[AMTCM John Long]

Deane,

I have seen CO's (05 types at Airsta's) cover the duty. Notably during transfer seasons. At units that have a 2 BO requirement, Aircraft Commanders/pilots get stretched mighty thin. The Ops Boss/Scheds O would ask the XO first, if he couldn't, the CO would step in to cover the hole. It's not an everyday occurance but it does happen from time to time, mostly in the summer.
I still keep my quals current as do all the Chief's at my current unit. If needed anyone of us has or will cover the ready.

John

[BMCS Nick Pupo]

I think most of you are missing the point. Its not weather we would stand duty as Chief's. Which, I think everybody would, when needed.
But its what kind of enviroment was created where a BM2 felt it was ok to ask the OIC if he would stand duty for them.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott (Ret)]

It was improper for the BM2 to ask. It bespeaks of a level of familiarity that shouldn't be there. And, it demonstrates that the chain-of-command is not being properly utilized. If anything, the XPO should have forwarded the request.

I'll bet every station OIC out there has had to fill in one at least one occasion due to unexpected circumstances. That's a lot different than having one your crew tap you for a stand-in at the last minute.

Aviators- correct me if I'm wrong, but your community tends to be a lot more informal than the surface community. Would that be correct?

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

With only 19 people at the unit I can see the "familiarity" that would occur. Regardless, it should have been a request routed on a chit through the XPO. I believe that in the aviation community also, pilots come ready trained and qualified. Sure they may need time to get familiar with the area or even if they are changing platforms, but it is certainly not like the surface community where we could (and often do) get someone that is supposed to fill a coxswain billet that has not even got a crew qual on the platform that they will be operating on. How would that aviation CO take it if his new pilots were comming directly from the Academy without even going to flight school? "Here you go Captain, sorry he is not qualified, but we don't have anyone to send that is. You will have to do your best with him". That is pretty much what we get to deal with every year.

[AMTCM John Long]

Interesting discussion. I'll try to hit a couple of areas brought up.

I would agree it should not be the norm for subordinates to query CO/OINC's to cover a duty. Any queries should be filtered at the XO/XPO/supervisor level. One of the first questions I'd ask is why/how did that duty shortfall evolve in the first place?

IMO, I would tend to agree certain enlisted aspects in the aviation community are less formal than other communities. By that I'm implying that the crews are very close together, especially at the smaller units. Everyone eats, sleeps and flys together. Some spouses like to interact with each other, form spouses clubs, kids play together, etc. Everyone knows each other fairly well. (A good litmus test is when you can look at your SWE list and you know the majority of everyone on there) I think there is a unique commaratterre(sp) that exists. I didn't see it in my early afloat days prior to going aviation.
However with all the above said, proper courtesies and formalities are still expected, just like any CG unit whether it is E with E or E with O interactions. The aviation rates are not any different than any other rate.

We do not have SN's or FN's on the hanger deck. Unless there was/is a unique situation, all the folks working on the hanger deck are E4 and above. Now we do have the Airmen Program. These folks are in TABs (Training Allowance Billets). This is the normal process for our young folks coming into the aviation community. When the member gets orders for school, they go through the Airman Program first at their local airstation. In short, this is to introduce the member to some of the basic avaition processes and to indentify and weed out individuals who don't have the total desire or apptitude to come into the program. For those who are successful, alot of money will be invested in these young folks. We try to get it right the first time.

Transfer season and qualifications....................Like all units, we have folks who RELAD/Retire or SILO. These are our experienced folks. What hurts is often times your backfill for the E4/5 that left is a new A Schooler. That's all that's left. Sometimes you don't get that, we deal with it the best we can.
For the pilot side......the new guys/gals coming out of flight school usually have to get started in a basic CP syllabus to enter the duty rotation. The don't come out of flight school ready to stand duty. For a 2 BO unit, the pilot duty rotation can be brutal in the summer.

All of us aviation LCPO's work very closely with the aviation AO's. Every December we hold a Aviation LCPO Conference. While there, each LCPO gets to meet one on one with our 3 AO's to do the personnel assignments for the upcoming assignment year. For us, most of our folks know where their next assignment will likely be by the middle of December. Usually there are changes to the slates afterwards but by and large it works smoothly.

Sorry for the broad response but I was trying to address everything........John

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Well I'm back on land after only foutreen short years afloat and it is a different world. But not that different. I can see where the XPO could ask me to augment the duty section or take the coxswain duties, but not the BM2. Shortages are a way of life in the service. You need to foresee them, or at least have a contingency plan in place to handle them. Just to clear things up, no one is beyond duty. Even as OinCs, we stand some sort of duty.

[BMC Ken Gouge]

Just now piping up on this one after much thought.

I would (and have) stand duty if it were a qualified person shortage. There is one condition though. I would be in the section with the person closest to being qualified cox'n even if it meant re-arranging the sections.

We would then get underway and complete ALL currency maintenance tasks as a guage to see what the person needed training in. Following that we would be underway so much that the person would not need a check-ride to qualify. Scenario questions and surprises would be constantly thrown at the person as they came to mind (while underway) to judge the persons decision making and boat handling abilities, and the break-in would learn all the "tricks-of-the-trade" I could bestow.

Some BM3 doesn't want to be breaking in under the "Boss" because of the added pressure they might feel whether it is real or imagined, but when they can perform comfortably under those circumstances...

Ken

[BMC Chris Gempp]

I have been thinking about this and here's my two cents, whatever it may be worth.
I have stood duty as XPO during coxswain shortages for people that either needed to take leave for one reason or the other, it was a case by case basis, but I was willing to help out the crew as much as possible but I did draw the line.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Chris...I'm with you on the XPO thing. But, what do you think about a BM2 asking the OINC to stand-by for him/her? That was the question that Mark asked. Go back and read the post by Mark Lewis, if you haven't (page 2 - 6/9/2005).

[BMC Chris Gempp]

Deane,
In all honesty I think it's a little brave for a BM2 to go directly to the OIC to ask him/her to stand by. The other question is are there others in the Chain of Command, XPO/Ops or duty section that could be asked to fill in prior to going to the OIC? If that was the case at my unit, that would be the first question I would ask, then consider the options.

[DCCS Todd Holcomb]

I think most of you are missing the point. Its not weather we would stand duty as Chief's. Which, I think everybody would, when needed.
But its what kind of enviroment was created where a BM2 felt it was ok to ask the OIC if he would stand duty for them.
Senior Chief Slesh, Back to the "First name" thread, How would one of those Senior NCO's have reacted if confronted by a SGT and asked to stand duty? Would not have happened at the unit I was at.....the only time you talked to an E-6 or above was when you were summoned :eek: you certianly didn't go directly to them with this issue, you started with your supervisor and they did the rest.................. CHAIN OF COMMAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My .02

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Brave isn't the word I would have used. Starts with a B, just not brave. I think that there is a break down somewhere in the chain, unless the OinC was the ONLY other qualified person. Again, it's not a question of whether or not I would have stood the duty. It's about who should have been the one to broach the subject. Where was the XPO during this conversation ?