Accountability

[BMCS Ian McVicker]

Just recently received this by e-mail from one of our Sector DH. Article is a pretty good read, and I used it for training with the junior folks here.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

And regrettably we live in a society where nothing is anyone's fault...... and fewer and fewer people are willing to hold others accountable.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Sorta fall in line with the theme for Fall CCTI.

[BMC John Phillips III]

Ian,

That's a great article thanks for posting. I will be reading it tomorrow morning at muster. I especially like the part about trying to create a "feel good" society where everything is accepted as being okay as long as no one gets their feelings hurt or self-esteem damaged :rolleyes:

[BMC Gene Daigle]

I will read this at my next meeting with my First Classes, and then when I get the PO2's into my next meeting with them. Good read for when all the new personnel are checking in, and will be part of the Command Philosophy.

[LT Bill Mannone (RMCS) (Ret)]

Hello ...

I read the article and agreed with everything in it. I have a perspective of being a chief that went to the "dark side" going CWO then LT. Now as a civilian, working on a Coast Guard base, the line from the article "... Modeling expected behavior and holding ourselves responsible for keeping our commitments ... " rings true.

Once upon a time, I remember when the Chief's of the mess held each other accountable and by that example, we (the Chiefs) were the example. You would think that personal accountability and respect for yourself (first), the anchors you wear, and the uniform on your back would never have to be "reinforced" on a chief corps.

If you are reading this and are in a leadership position how are YOU doing now?

[BMC John Phillips III]

Here is more from the "accountability" department.

I like how when people fess up or apologize for wrong-doing all is suppose to be forgiven. At least that's how I see things going in today's society. People as smart as they are, are learning that you can do wrong, you can do whatever you like and if you get caught, hey, just admit you were wrong to do what you did, apologize and everything will be ok. Where did that come from? I have seen it on a few occasions first hand but here is an example:

Pete Rose, I am sorry I bet on baseball.

The sad part is he signed 30 balls, wrote a book, made lots of money on it and will probably be forgiven.

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

I know it's a no-no for a player to bet on any game where they are playing.

To make an honest judgement, in the Pete Rose decision, I would like to know how he bet. I know I'd forgive him if he bet for his team to win, or his team to win by more than x runs. Then Charlie hustle is working hard to win that bet.

If he were betting against his team, I wouldn't be so forgiving, because he was doing his best to throw the game.

The mere fact that he bet shouldn't be a deciding factor.

Yes, we are a forgiving society. I'm sure we can find examples where someone admitted wrong doing were excused. I know it happened to me and I certainly allowed it to happen when I became the HMFIC.

Of course the old ... this is the first, and last time, that activity will be allowed ... speech was used during the excuse.

[SKC Raymond Kurtz]

I have a few "sore subjects" and the Pete Rose thing is one of them.

How many players (football and baseball) have been busted for drugs and little was done to them. There are two poster children in this department.

Steve Howe, left handed pitcher for the Yankees was busted 7 times for cocaine abuse. Was there a life time suspension? No. Was he suspended? Yes, but each time after a too short period was allowed to come back to play, get busted, get suspended and then allowed to play again. Finally, the Yankees had enough. But, (and this is a big but), if Howe had the numbers he would be eligible for the HOF despite of being busted numereous times for drug abuse.

Lawrence Taylor of the Giants. Mr. Taylor was continually busted for drug abuse yet was still elected to the Football Hall of Fame.

I am not a gambler, mostly because I have a brother-in-law that cannot stay away from it. He is my age and does not have the proverbial pot to urinate in, due partly to his addiction to gambling. I have seen first hand what addicitve gambling can do to a person. I say that because I can understand the frustration people have with Charlie Hustle, putting all of the gambling aside, I still believe he has a place in the HOF.

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

Ray,

I sure my Pete Rose example is influenced by all the other examples of sports figures getting away with illegal activities.

I don't view gambling in the same vein as illegal drug use.

Gambling, like alcohol and illegal drugs, can be addictive to some.

[ETC Pat Kaschube]

Not really related to the accountabilty issue but my two cents on the Pete Rose thing, Did he bet on baseball as a player? I don't believe so but I could be wrong. Is there any question that as a player he was one of the best. Don't think so. As a manager should he have been is the hall of fame? Don't think so. I still think he should be in the hall as a player. Ty Cobb is in the hall and he was well, can't use those words here. If I'm not mistaken he did not bet on his team to loose a game. Still not right to bet on the game you are a part of but if anything it made him want to win those games. Of course now Pete Rose has gone from a sad figure of sports history to just a ridiculous figure in the media.

[BMC Ralph Williams]

Pat,
the guy had close to 4600 hits, think he had 15 or 16 MVP's and was Rookie of the Year when he came in (early 60's).

Pete was a great player but was stupid to gamble when he was a manager.

my .02.

Ralph

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I don't watch sports. I know who Pete Rose is because I have watched T.V. throughout my lifetime. Regardless of how you feel about his gambling, it was illegal to do and he knew it. Siting that other people have gotten away with more, doesn't make what he did right. And I don't care about his gambling as much as about how he lied about it for the past ? how ? many years. Now it's time for me to apologize.....I'm sorry, but I don't believe Pete Rose is sorry. If he said that he's sorry he got caught, I'd believe him. If he said he's sorry that getting caught changed the way he would be viewed in history, I'd believe. But I don't believe that he's sorry that he bet on baseball. And with that said, I don't think that it should keep him from the HOF. That should be based solely on what he did on the field. How many of the mediocre players from the forties who went off to fight for their country were induced into the HOF ? They didn't take into account what they did, they shouldn't be allowed to work it the other way either.
My vote........Baseball Hall of Fame for the way he played, Historicall Hall of Shame for the way he acted.

[BMCS T. D. Ellis]

Not really related to the accountabilty issue but my two cents on the Pete Rose thing, Did he bet on baseball as a player? I don't believe so but I could be wrong.

You were not wrong, you were mistaken.

He bet on baseball as a MANAGER. What a great way to affect the outcome of a game and make some money.

Kind of like being vice president and having control of bidless contracts in Iraq. :mad:

Whoops, did I say that? :D

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

I am going to take a bit of a different slant on this. Pete Rose was definatly H of F material on the field. (period, end of story) Not as a manager, he bet on some baseball games. Did he ever bet on his own team? I don't think so. That being said, what is the big deal? How many of you have ever participated in a football pool, bet on a game, gone to Vegas and dropped some coins in a machine? Some may accuse him of having "insider knowledge". OK, so the bookie may want to send "Brutus" to pay him a visit. Isn't that how it all works? Why arent the consipracy theorists chiming in on how Pete was railroaded and made an example of because he just pissed off the wrong people. I am not saying what he did was a smart thing. What I am saying is that there are much bigger (no pun intended) cheaters in professional sports, then Pete Rose ever was. Why is he not in the H of F with an asterisk by his name like so many others should have?

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Jim the other examples that you gave aren't illegal. Pete Rose knew he wasn't allowed to bet on baseball. It wouldn't be an issue if he bet of football or tennis.

[SKC Eric S. Highland]

I hope this isn't "hi-jacking" but it looks as though the topic has shifted.. and I'm chiming in on the Charlie Hustle issue..

For those of you not in the know, Charlie Hustle is Pete Rose's nickname because he used to hustle to first base whenever he drew a walk.

Pete Rose was a phenomenal hitter, best the game has ever seen. He even surpassed my hero of the game (hero not as an individual person but as a player) Ty "the Georgia Peach" Cobb.

Pete Rose has been approaching the proverbial "parole board" for years, for years he has been rejected.

When Bart Giamatti, (the baseball Commissioner during the banning of Rose in 1989) banned Charlie Hustle from the Hall of Fame, it was with the understanding that he would once again become eligible for entrance into the hall. Baseball changed its mind on that.

He has become a martyr for baseball. The fans love him (generalization but yes a majority) If he were to be "paroled" he would become top news for fifteen more minutes and then this would be a non-issue.

Has he paid his dues? This is really more of a pot-stirrer than a statement. You tell me, how long before he has "paid" what he owes for betting on his sport. (Keep in mind that he NEVER bet against his own team)

Should he be paroled? Now, later or never? You be the judge...

v/r

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Eric, this wouldn't be viewed by me to be "hi-jacketed" because it's all about accountability. The original article talked about society's view on accountability. Where the thread has gone speaks to that.
The way I see it, Pete Rose fans have said he has paid his debt already. Those that weren't fans think that he never will.
I find it interesting that you are adament that he never bet on his own team. I don't know how you know that, but it wouldn't matter to me anyway. He was in a position where he wasn't allowed to bet on baseball, and he did anyway.
You now have him painted as a martyr. I don't think you know what that word means. He isn't even a scapegoat. He was found by baseball to be guilty of an offense that they saw to be unforgiveable in 1989. He tarnished what baseball was all about in 1989. Time in fact does not heal all wounds. Some are left with a scar.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

I think the people who don't want Pete Rose in the HOF don't want him in because he disgraced the game. He bet on the sport that he played...while he was still involved in the game. That is a disgrace to the game...and that's why he's not in the hall. People can argue that others (like LT in football) don't deserve to be in the HOF either, but LT didn't disgrace the game. He disgraced himself, but not the game.

[BMC John Phillips III]

I agree with Master Chief as to this thread not being off topic. Granted I rather be talking about someone other than Pete Rose (not a fan) but just to keep it a little more inline with the topic and my using Rose as example. I was just trying to get to the bottom of people saying their sorry for something and then all is supposed to be forgiven. Where is the accountability in that?

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

If you are sincere in your apology and acknowledge that you did something wrong, that is being acountable for your actions. In some situations that all you can ever do. In others there is a price that you have to pay.
Back to the CG. If you are an OinC and do something that gets you relieved for cause, an apology is nice, but it isn't enough. You have to do your time and re-certify. You have to re-earn that trust. Standing OOD and knowingly violate the standing orders......an apology isn't enough.

My father always said that there were two kinds of people he couldn't stand,..... Thieves and liars. And he said that you could always keep your eye on the thieves to make sure that they didn't do it again, but you could never really trust the liars. Once you're established as a liar, even your apologies seem suspect.

[BMC John Phillips III]

Funny my mom used to say the same thing just in different words, it went something like this,

"you can catch a thief but you can never trust a liar."

Part of a discussion I was having with a subordinate today include that the CG seems to be moving towards holding people accountable and it seems their first or easiest step towards doing that is the weight program. Funny how all the important topics seem to tie in. Kind of like marks and leadership competencies.

Accountability, still one of my favorite topics.

[FSC Jayare Parker (Ret)]

I think Pete should be in the HOF as a player but not as a manager also. He never dis-graced the game as a player so let him in.

What about Barry Bonds? Come on you can't tell me he didn't know he was using steroids for all those years? They black balled Jose Canseco for roids but Bonds is still allowed to play? Yet, they will still likely put Bonds in the HOF. :mad: If they put him in, there better be one heck of a big *astrick* beside his name. Then why not put Pete in with his own little *astrick*.

Jayare

[ETC Pat Kaschube]

You were not wrong, you were mistaken.

He bet on baseball as a MANAGER. What a great way to affect the outcome of a game and make some money.

Kind of like being vice president and having control of bidless contracts in Iraq. :mad:

Whoops, did I say that? :D

So he bet on baseball as a manager. I wouldn't vote for him for the hall of fame as a manager because he wasn't very good at it. He should be in the hall of fame as a player.

Did he bet on his team to loose? Does anyone know? I do not that is why I'm asking. What he did was wrong but if he never bet on his team to loose then there is no reason to attempt to affect the outcome of the game other than doing his best to win.

[BMC John Phillips III]

More from the "Accountability" department.

Without going into great detail, anyone keeping up with current events probably knows what is going on with congressman Foley. That being said, I just read an article that said, "• Foley says he was abused by a clergyman" and I have to say, even if it's true, is this not just a desperate attempt to shift the blame? That's another thing that I find wrong today, almost like the apologizing and everything is supposed to be forgiven. If you get caught red handed, you can just say, "well that happened to me so I was conditioned into doing it to someone one else, I am a helpless victim of our society." If that is the case, do not proceed directly to jail, feel free to pass go and collect $200, all is forgiven. You do not need to be held accountable for your actions.

[SKC Eric S. Highland]

Stu,

I'm not personally painting Pete Rose as a martyr for baseball, I'm simply saying that he has become one. Yes it isn't the proper use of the term, but close enough considering their really isn't a term to describe someone loved by so many who is being in their opinion unfairly punished.

As far as how do I know that he never bet on his own team? I don't, but the investigation has never turned up any evidence that he did.

My post was really more to the lines of time served or parole..

Yes there should be accountability, is there ever a time for parole? This question goes beyond Pete Rose, this has to do with society as a whole. I'm interested to hear people's thoughts on this.

v/r

[BMCM Deane Smith]

When I was about 6 or 7, Pete Rose came to Covington, Ohio for an autograph signing. At the time, Pete Rose and Johnny Bench were living legends in the state of Ohio. Pete was going to be at a local furniture store signing autographs. Covington is a very small town (at least it was when I was 6). When we got there, Pete was sitting on a stool handing out pre-autographed cards with his picture on it. It wasn't even a real signature, it was imprinted on the card. My dad told me to ask him to sign my baseball...so, I did. Pete told me "I don't sign autographs". Since that day, I have had zero respect for him. And, his actions since then have...well you get the point.

Truth in Character!

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Eric I need to to read this to yourself out loud.

I'm not personally painting Pete Rose as a martyr for baseball, I'm simply saying that he has become one.

He's not a martyr. He's not even close. You could say that they're making an "example" out of him and I'll agree with you. But martyr isn't the closest definition here.

And how much time before he's paroled....... I don't know.

John, I think that he needed to find some excuse because people weren't letting him use the "I have an alcohol problem" line. And I for one would feel sorry for him if he were abused as a child. But not sorry enough to excuse him for becoming an abuser. Look at the things that he has accomplished in his lifetime........... he can't claim ingorance on this.

[MSTCS Jerald P. Motyka]

Consider this past weekend with the football linebacker that stomped on the other guy's head.

He came out and said, "I have disgraced football, the Titans, and my family name, and I deserve anything and everything that the League gives me as punishment."

I have a LOT of respect for that guy. Granted, he did something wrong - heinously wrong - but he has accepted FULL responsibility for it and isn't ducking anything. Good for him!

Foley, on the other hand, is just ducking and covering, and won't accept ANY blame.

[BMC John Phillips III]

Jerald, what that player did was totally unacceptable. I wouldn't say that I have any respect for him at all. However, I will say that I respect the manner in which he has owned up to his behavior. I think the punishment was light to say the least but again at least he owned up to it in a what I view as a meaningful way. Then again, being caught on camera, his options were truly limited.