Condition of employment ?

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

We're getting ready for our first visit from the new D7 CMC. Prior to his arrival a list was circulated listing all the members of the Mess that hadn't yet attended the Academy. After that list was verified it was sent up to Miami. The CMC responded back and asked us to encourage members to attend the Academy as soon as possible and made a referrence to it becoming...."a condition of employment."
Now the word on the calle (that's street down here) is that this is originating at the top. The MCPOCG sees the Academy as a powerful leadership tool that will be required to remain a Chief. Are other people hearing the same thing ?

[MSTCM Jerald Motyka]

I recall hearing that several years ago when they made the academy mandatory for Senior Chief.

We have to start somewhere... after that, hopefully we can start with an enlisted-ONLY version of LAMS and then an enlisted-ONLY version of SPOLAM being mandatory. But I only have ten years to go before I hit 30 years... so I probably won't see it... :eek:

[BMCM Deane Smith]

I haven't heard anything about this. But...I'm sure that any day the MCPOCG will publish guidance on this. I mean it's such an important issue and all...I'm sure guidance is coming...

[DCCS Todd Holcomb]

I've heard it may become mandatory, but I'm not sure I understand the part about needing it to "remain a Chief". Does that mean that if an ETCS hasn't been they will be asked to leave or attend????????

Also will this have a grandfather date or will all 7's and above be required to attend one of the services acadamies?????? Just wondering how that will work.

I agree it is a great thing and hopefully in the near future we will see some clearer guidance. I had a great time and would go again.

Jerald, (Congrats I'm sitting at #2 as well) I'm with you it would be awesome to see some resident courses for our junior enlisted as a requirement to advance.

[MSTCM Jerald Motyka]

The only problem comes in for that small station losing an SNMB or FNMK, or even worse, a BM1/2-MK1/2, for a month for a "stupid" school...

IF this becomes mandatory, I think it will be grandfathered... if you are a Chief now, you can retire without attending. However I can also see stopping advancements for those non-attendees that refuse to attend... so a good friend of mine will become a BMCFE (For Ever) and never a BMCS.

And congrats to your #2 as well!! WOOT!

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I don't think that they would grandfather people in. I think that people will either attend or get out. You can't advance without it anyway, unless you made E-7 prior to Jan '99. Those with more than twenty would have to make a choice. Those with less than twenty.....the choice would be easy. I don't see it as a cure all for our problems. I don't think that graduation guarantees complice with CG policies.

[BMC John Phillips III]

I went while my cutter was called underway for hurricane response and I was the XPO. I think that kinda squashes the needing the person for a month theory. If you got in an accident and were laid up in the hospital for 30 days your unit would survive without you. No, really, they would I swear! The benefits gained by attending definitely outway the cons (or Deltas as BMCM Slesh likes to call them ;) ) of being away for that long.

[CWO Chris Sparkman (BMC)]

The list just recently circulated through the square box that sits on my desk. The majority of the folks on the list for our District, Sector were folks that made it before 99. The others were folks who just put the anchors on. I can't see some of the E8's and E9's that I seen on the list attending. Stranger things have happened though.

I'll also throw the red flag on losing one or two people for a month. I attending as the OIC, gone for 30+ days, (strange...when I returned, everyone said things went smoothly,) :D My XPO just returned last month from his class.

CS

[BMCM Deane Smith]

The bottom line is we have to let our people attend.

My XPO is leaving next month and will miss 1 or 2 u/w trips...I'll just have to suck up the watches while he's gone.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

I went back in 2001 while OINC of an ANT with no XPO. Let my EPO run things and h did a great job.

[MSTCM Jerald Motyka]

I've spoken to a couple senior BMs that gave an emphatic "Ain't NO way I'm gonna lose a cox'un for a month for a stupid class that I can give them here OJT!!" Now, consider this is for leadership courses that are presently ELECTIVE rather than mandatory.

I didn't agree, and don't agree still. But this is still a topic for another thread. :rolleyes:

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Just heard it straight from the originator of the e-mail. Expect it to become mandatory. He also went as a sitting OinC.

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

I think that it is great. Welcome back to the military. We give orders and we take orders. We don't always have to like it, but we still do it. Soon it will no longer just be an "invitation". Just because someone is a Chief, does not mean they can't still pick up a new trick or two. If the individual decides that they are not going to make any effort, then they probably wont get anything out of it. But at least the Coast Guard will have made every effort to provide the training opportunity. You can always lead a horse to water... This just forces people to have the opportunity to learn something.

[OSC Delain Tate]

If the individual decides that they are not going to make any effort, then they probably wont get anything out of it. But at least the Coast Guard will have made every effort to provide the training opportunity. You can always lead a horse to water... This just forces people to have the opportunity to learn something.

Don't get me wrong, I too think it's great. I'm attending the Aug, 06 CPOA Class, and I can't wait. But, what happens when you get someone who is being forced to attend who doesn’t want to be there, does that not affect everyone else who attends? How much money will be wasted on sending these folks?

I'm glad to be going while it's still voluntary.

-Delain

[BMCM Deane Smith]

There is no leadership training that is a waste of money...Bar None. I don't care what people say or how they act...they will get something out of it.

This has to become mandatory, that's the ONLY way that it will work. If it continues to be optional, people will continue to say no. This is a long-term leadership agenda and it's about time that we're headed in this direction.

[BMC John Phillips III]

But, what happens when you get someone who is being forced to attend who doesn’t want to be there, does that not affect everyone else who attends?
-Delain

Those are usually the people that end up getting the most out of it. After you attend you can tell me if you think you agree with that.

The staff at the Academy is unlike any that I have ever been exposed to. They have to screen for those positions. The staff there is buying what they're selling and practicing what they're preaching. They made me feel proud to be in the military and more importantly to be a Chief.

I understand what you are saying about someone else bringing down everyone elses morale, but the majority are there and happy to be there and peer pressure alone kind of squashes any negative attitudes.

[BMCM Bruce Bradley]

In addition to everything else that the CPO Academy is, was or will be, it is above all else a Chiefs Mess. Granted maybe only a temporary one, but a Chiefs Mess non the less. And with that I don't that would be worried about that one lone Chief that doesn't want to be there bringing down the morale and learning of an entire class of Chiefs. I would be very worried about all those other Chiefs who are members of that Chiefs Mess that would allowed it to happen.

CPOA Class XL

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Well said Deane. I too believe it is worth the trip. If for nothing else, the fact you can meet 30+ other chiefs! The networking alone is worth the price of admission. There could be worse conditions of employment. What if we all had to have a College Degree like the navy wants for E7 and above. Make the time, I cant because of operational commitments is a cop-out.

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

When the folks that show up because it is "mandatory" and if they have a bad attitude, that simply becomes an opportunity for the other Chiefs to excersise some leadership and bring that wayward Chief along. The bottom line at the Acadamy, is you still have to graduate. If it is madatory and someone goes and does not complete the things he needs to complete, then that Chief should not graduate and then what? Another class? E-6? A whole new attitude? When does a leader become a leader? At what point is the rubber going to meet the road?

[SKC Danny Davirro]

I am also slated for the August class and I can't wait. I asked to go because I thought it was the right thing to do as a Chief, not because I have to in order to sit for E-8. I am doing it to better my abilities as a Chief. I learned long ago that you get back what you put in.

[DCCS Brett Wickett]

I don't think that the problem lies entirely with the individual that does not want to go. I believe that a vast majority of the problem lies with the leadership of the individual that does not want to go. The leadership should be pushing not giving excusses. The Chief that does not want to go.....BS.....Find another job, find another career, or simply give back the anchor, and the leadership responsibility that goes with it. Do I think that the CPOA will give you a divining moment, hell I don't know. do I think you will get something out of it....yep sure do. and if you are going to be there with the wrong frame of mind, then like it was said earlier, it is the responsibility of the other 50+ chiefs that are there to attitudinally adjust that individual. Should the school be voluntary, I don't know. Should it be mandatory, i don't know that either. What I do know is that anyone that wants to wear the anchor, and walk,talk and smell like a Chief either go or give your anchor back. I am not saying that in order to be a good Chief, leader or anything else you must go to the class. I am saying that because you chose this path, and took this position "as a Chief" it is your responsibility to go.
There I am done now......LOL Just go and enjoy your time there, it really is a great staff, and a great curriculum.

[BMCM Bruce Bradley]

Maybe we need to bring back that east coast class for those that don't want to go. Let them go be third class citizens at Canoe U.

[MSTCS Dave McClintock]

I don't think that the problem lies entirely with the individual that does not want to go. I believe that a vast majority of the problem lies with the leadership of the individual that does not want to go. The leadership should be pushing not giving excusses. The Chief that does not want to go.....BS.....Find another job, find another career, or simply give back the anchor, and the leadership responsibility that goes with it. Do I think that the CPOA will give you a divining moment, hell I don't know. do I think you will get something out of it....yep sure do. and if you are going to be there with the wrong frame of mind, then like it was said earlier, it is the responsibility of the other 50+ chiefs that are there to attitudinally adjust that individual. Should the school be voluntary, I don't know. Should it be mandatory, i don't know that either. What I do know is that anyone that wants to wear the anchor, and walk,talk and smell like a Chief either go or give your anchor back. I am not saying that in order to be a good Chief, leader or anything else you must go to the class. I am saying that because you chose this path, and took this position "as a Chief" it is your responsibility to go.
There I am done now......LOL Just go and enjoy your time there, it really is a great staff, and a great curriculum.

Alright Chief Brett, I will take the bait. As a Chief that has not went to the Academy I have serious issue with you questioning my leadership ability and my right as an initiated Chief to wear my anchor when you yourself question whether the CPOA should be required or not. Before spewing out garbage like I highlighted above and generalizing those that have not went to the Academy for whatever reason, I would suggest maybe taking the stance of trying to sell the good points of the Academy and not throwing barbs at the guys/gals that have not attended. To be welcomed into the Mess, I was taught by those before me that I needed to go through the CCTI and it was my responsibility "as the Chief" to go. I did without question and learned alot from my day. Are you really saying without knowing me that in your opinion that I am should no longer be a welcome member of the Chiefs Mess because I did not attend an optional C school? Brother, I beg to differ. It takes alot of ba#$s to tell ANY "Chief" to go find another job and give back their anchor because they dont attend any optional leadership school YOU feel is important to attend. Moderators, you may want to move this behind closed doors because airing dirty laundry in the Chiefs Mess cant lead to anything good. There I am done now....

[DCCS Brett Wickett]

Sr Chief, I will not take this farther on here. You are welcome to give me a call if you wish. Things typed are taken way out of context sometimes. I think this just happened. I never once said you were not a leader. As a matter of fact between the lines you chose to highlight this is exactly what I said "I am not saying that in order to be a good Chief, leader or anything else you must go to the class." I don't know you or most anyone else on here. I cannot and will not say you are anything but an upstanding person and leader. I was making general comments that I feel if a person takes a responsibility then that person should take ALL responsibility that comes with that role. We all know that being a Chief is much more involed than attending the CPOA. MY VIEW is simply, if you strive to be good (at whatever) then why not try and do everything or use every tool at your disposal to be good. I in no way mean that you or anyone else on here is bad. I respect any and everyone that wears a a non-rate insignia, crow, anchor, or any other device until they give me reason not to. You say you didn't go, I respect that. But I would also suspect if the school became mandatory (without granfather) you would attend because you are a professional and it would be your responsibility. Now just as you apparently mistook my meaning, I hope I am mistaking your personal attack on me. I truely believe that if you knew me you would know my stance on this issue. I will appologize though to you or anyone else that may have taken offense. ABSOLUTLY nothing was meant to be an attack on anyone.

[MSTCS Dave McClintock]

Chief;

It was merely my intent to address the statements you made that I took as catagorizing Chiefs that did not go to the Academy. It wasnt my intent to personally attack you, but to suggest pulling a Chiefs anchors for not attending during a time when the course is optional sounded a bit over the edge and since I am in the group of non-attendees, of course it hit close to home. I do see value in having the Chiefs go to the CPOA and if mandated, I would have no problem going and would do my best as I always do. Im not beating this horse anymore. No harm, no foul.

[OSC Delain Tate]

I am also slated for the August class and I can't wait. I asked to go because I thought it was the right thing to do as a Chief, not because I have to in order to sit for E-8. I am doing it to better my abilities as a Chief. I learned long ago that you get back what you put in.


I look forward to seeing you there Danny!

-Delain

[DCCS Brett Wickett]

Gottcha Sr. I think the misunderstanding was, I was not saying to pull the anchors from people. I would never say to pull yours or anyone elses. It was meant more in responsibility as a Chief. Granted the CG has said that before xx year you were exempt. Works for me. Typically more is gained by experience than schooling. I was looking more at if we tell our Jr people to step up to the plate and go to SPOLAM, or LAMS or whatever, then we also need to walk the walk. I guess I used a wrong figure of speach. Again, hard to give a good expression when trying to type. All is good here. I think we are in agreement that we want the best for our people and our service we have given our career to.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

This is exactly why this conversation shouldn't be moved behind closed doors. People should openly express their opinion about something that is about to become a policy change. Dave, as you mentioned, the Academy is optional. It wasn't supposed to be. They grandfathered some of us into it not being a requirement for advancement, but they wanted everyone else to attand within X amount of time after becoming an E-7. Too many units and too many people made excuses why they shouldn't or couldn't attend. Now people who make policy changed how you had to disenroll. Other people who make policy are about to change the rules on what will happen if you don't attend or don't successfully complete the course. People should openly express their opinion while your opinion may still matter. Once this becomes policy, it will be too late. Everyone of us will see alot of policy changes during our career. Very few of us will ever see a policy changed back to the way it was.

[DCCS Brett Wickett]

This thing has got me to thinking. Maybe it will others. I think with me what it comes down to is this. The word has come out requesting chiefs go, highly suggesting chiefs go, recommending chiefs go. Basically we have been asked in everyway we could without being ordered to go. And I have seen that also. With all I have said, what I am trying to say I guess is that we as leaders should not have to be ordered to attend. It bothers me that the policy change is comming making it mandatory. It bothers me that we could not get enough people to want to go that is is now going to be mandatory. But this does not degrade or downplay the ones that were grandfathered in. Like I said earlier, ALOT comes with time, experience carries much.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

For those who havent been, can you make your Petty Officers go to LAMS? Would you? I went, and everyone of my POs will go/have gone to LAMS. It is not thier choice. Now If I had not been to CPOA, would it be fair to make a PO or non rate go to any optional school?

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Brett, I'll be honest with you. I never went because I never HAD to. It wasn't a requirement for me so I never felt as though I needed it. Not just a play on words. If the CG wasn't going to make it a requirement for me, I felt as though they recognized me as not needed it either. Five weeks in a classroom doesn't sound appealing to me. But if they change the policy and make it a requirement, I think that everyone who wants to either become a Chief, or remain a Chief, should plan on attending.

[MSTCM C Stevenson]

This thing has got me to thinking. Maybe it will others. I think with me what it comes down to is this. The word has come out requesting chiefs go, highly suggesting chiefs go, recommending chiefs go. Basically we have been asked in everyway we could without being ordered to go. And I have seen that also. With all I have said, what I am trying to say I guess is that we as leaders should not have to be ordered to attend. It bothers me that the policy change is comming making it mandatory. It bothers me that we could not get enough people to want to go that is is now going to be mandatory. But this does not degrade or downplay the ones that were grandfathered in. Like I said earlier, ALOT comes with time, experience carries much.

Great post, Brett.

With regard to...
It bothers me that the policy change is comming making it mandatory. It bothers me that we could not get enough people to want to go that is is now going to be mandatory.

The organization has taken this approach countless times where they want to reach a program goal but seem to take forever to get there. They're still working fitness standards to be something concrete, right? On the other hand, the weight program is a hell of a lot smarter than it used to be.

I used to think it was the organization or people (or both) as lame, weak or unwilling, which caused lack of action or buy-in. We've all been there: Why don't they just make it happen now? and Why aren't people getting on board!?

I'm wiser now.

And our bosses are smarter than they used to be: They work hard crunching numbers and stats to make sure adequate resource allocations, staffing and operating budgets exist before charging in. They want the change to have more creditbility in the long haul. They want it to last. Kudos to them. Its extremely boring and time consuming, but thats why they get the big bucks, right?

We should look at the time leading to a program change as free prep time.

[BMC Ken Gouge]

Well, I haven't been yet. I intend to go. Since I need it to advance, I don't have much choice. I would have rather had the choice and attended instead of it being mandated from on high.

I think they should have just stopped at the point of making it a practical factor. I think that if they want all chiefs to have attended then they should make it a prac for E-7, not E-8.

I love the Coast Guard, but I WILL NOT spend 6-8 weeks on patrol, then attend during a 5 week in-port only to come home and get underway for another 6-8 weeks. I (and others who have not yet attended) received the below e-mail (while underway) from the Lantarea CMC:

Chiefs,

I noticed in a recent report that you haven't yet attended a Senior Enlisted
Academy. I strongly urge you to do so, even if you presently plan to retire
at your present pay grade or transition to the officer corps. The training
& experience you'll gain at any of the service academies for senior enlisted
members will do you well in whatever career path you take. Please feel free
to contact me if I can be of any help in your decision to attend.

good luck!

very respectfully,

MCPO Bill James

Command Master Chief, CG Atlantic Area

I am sure it is a great school, I have heard that from everyone that has attended. I can't wait to go. They are already postponing my chance to advance until I attend, do we really need the propaganda and mandates?

Ken
2-91-1-L

Leadership is doing what is right when no one is watching.
--George Van Valkenburg

[DCCS Brett Wickett]

Ken, I hear ya about the patrol, school, patrol. That does suck. That is one reason I said in my first attempt to type what I feel, that I think a bigger issue lies with the leadership over the Chief. They should be making the time to send their chiefs. Don't be fooled to think the patrol, or the CG will stop without a chief there. I know several OIC's XPO's and EPO's that have gone. Most of these have been from river tenders. The burden should not rest squarely on the shoulders of the person trying to attend. It should be at least equally carried by the leadership over the chief. I know I have seen many messages directing CO's to make the time for their chiefs to attend. I have never seen one that said make them do it on their time or only between patrols.

[LT Arthur Nelson (MKC) (Ret)]

I feel like I'm walking point going into a known ambush.
What is the big deal about going to the Chiefs Academy?
God, there are so many excuses like "I just came from patrol" or "the station/ship can't run without me"
I'm sorry; but that just doesn't cut it.
Yea, I'll stand on my soap box and tell everyone I've got 17 years sea time including three 378's, 2 MEC's 2 WPB's and two buoy tenders. Guess how many missed birthdays, holidays, anniversary's ect ect...
When I made CWO, it's required to go to the indoc school.
I had just came off an extended 7 month depolyment when I left less than a week later for CWO indoc.
Like we always say, it's hard describing what your trying to say typing it, vice personal discussions. But what is the big deal??
Actually, those of you Chiefs rebelling are just settin a bad example to those PO's reading this...

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

How is someone expressing their opinion , setting a bad example. Attending the Academy isn't required........yet. Attending the CWO indoc is. Always has been. It's required. Go back to the Navy plan to have E-7s get their Associates Degree prior to making E-8. That's not CG policy,....yet, but are those of us who aren't seeking higher education setting a bad example for Petty Officers ? As Chiefs we should follow and enforce POLICY. This isn't policy.....yet. As far as setting an example.......have you attended the Chief's Academy ?
There are Senior Officers who have never attended any of the Senior Officer Schools. They can just never expect to make Admiral. If the CG thinks that the Academy is so important, they should make attendance mandatory. If every Chief needs it, make it a practical factor for E-7.

[BMC Ken Gouge]

MR. Nelson,

Step back a minute and actually READ my post.

Now, having done that, find one excuse for not attending or tell me where I said anything negative about the Academy or about not planning to attend.

I walked to school 10 miles through the snow and it was up-hill both ways just the same as you. And I'm guessing you wouldn't have missed a single anniversary or birthday if you had the choice.

I merely stated that I will not SCHEDULE to attend a NON-MANDATORY school during a short portcall and miss seeing my family for almost half a year. I don't like that my chance to advance has been placed on hold because of it. And Stu seconded my point that if it is something all Chiefs need to attend, make it an E-7 prac, not E-8.

And it's not an ambush if you know they're coming...

[BMCM Bruce Bradley]

If I remember correctly the only requirement for having attended the CPOA or another service school (outside of the current advancement to E7 one) is if you are applying for a CMC position. And I'll bet money that it will be for the new Sector CMCs and CSCs to have attended before application.

[LT Arthur Nelson (MKC) (Ret)]

Stuart & Ken,
I hear you & your both correct on all accounts. Right now it's a personal choice and with the "Condition of Employment" mails going around just muddys the waters. Appears the policy makers have to get off the stick and make attending the Chiefs Academy mandatory, or not.
Until then, [I personnaly feel] the CMCs should always encourage Chiefs to attend.
And no, I did not have the honor of attending the Chiefs Academy. When I selected Warrant, I was on the E8 list. Had I chosen E8 I would not have hesitated putting my name on the list.
This indeed is another interesting discussion reading everyone's opinions.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Ken you lost me on the ambush thing.......you set up an ambush when you know that they're coming. It's not an ambush if they know that you're there......

[BMC Ken Gouge]

Guess I should have said it's not an ambush if you're expecting it.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Now I'm witca

[BMC John Phillips III]

That's not CG policy,....yet, but are those of us who aren't seeking higher education setting a bad example for Petty Officers ? As Chiefs we should follow and enforce POLICY. This isn't policy.....yet. As far as setting an example.......

BMCM, sometimes we have to do more than what is required to set a good example. I know you still have this misconception of sitting behind a desk for 5 weeks, but there is a lot more to the Academy than class work.

I don't think it should be a requirement to make E7 at all, that would take the Chief out of Chief Petty Officer Academy. I will also add that the academy is the best and biggest mess that any chief could be a part of. Being in Petaluma does suck (at least in my opinion) but much like other schools, it is away from distractions.

[BMC John Phillips III]

Great post, Brett.

With regard to...
same comments quoted



I will add, the instructors don't want people that are just there to "punch their ticket" so I suggest attending before it is required. I know as an instructor I would give a lot more to those who volunteer for my training than those that are required it. That sounds bad, but it's human nature, it's my nature.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

JP3, some things need to be required to show the importance to the organization. Let's be honest....if the OinC review board wasn't a requirement......how many people would actually volunteer to sit before it ? If the PCO/PoinC school wasn't a requirement.....how many people would volunteer to attend ? If the Chiefs Academy were a requirement to make Chief.......we just put the Chief back into it. Kinda like OCS. You send them the raw materials to make into Officers. We send them E-6s, they give us people ready to become Chiefs.
And I think that this site has the potential to be the biggest Chiefs Mess you could ever be part of. I don't think that any Military Classroom is open to open frank discussions without fear of reprisals.

[BMC John Phillips III]

Your arguement makes sense, they usually do. I will add that one of the first things they tell you at the Academy is they practice a non-attribution policy. My class (129) seemed to be very candid and there didn't seem to be any reprisal. I would dare to say that my class was very open! So, I guess it's one of those things, 50 people could go and you end up with 50 different perceptions of how it went. And yes, this is the 2nd best Mess I have been a part of, but I have only been a member of 3 so far and haven't been to a Chiefs Call at my new mess (my 4th) yet. As far as sending E6's to the Academy, I'd say only if they were above the cut and frocked at graduation.

[MKC Art Bailly (Ret)]

Ken I here where your coming from. I have attended the CPOA but do not Plan on Making E-8. My command at the time was very supportive of letting me go when I wanted to go. I missed an underway trip and the first part of the dry dock and I was the MPA. But what I agree with you on is the family part. We all have to make decisions on what we do in life and if you feel it is more important to you to spend time with your family then to go to a optional “C” school then more power to you, And to say it sets a bad example for others I highly disagree. I to are at the point were my family takes priority over the Coast Guard. My family has sacrificed a lot already and now its time to make sacrifices for them. I am not advancing any higher because of what that would mean for my family. Its time to take there lives into account on what I do next in my career as a Coast Guardsman. So if I don’t get another job here I am retiring. It doesn’t make me any less of a Chief. It makes me a better one.

[BMC Ken Gouge]

Thanks Art, I am actually planning to extend onboard for one year so I don't have to move just prior to my oldest daughter starting her senior year in high school. If that ain't taking one for the team...

I do think we should change the WMEC to WMHA (Migrant Housing Authority) It would more appropriately describe our mission.

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

I have to agree with both Art and Ken here. I don't know about making either of you a "better Chief", but certainly putting your family first makes you both better husbands and fathers. Those are title's that you will likely hold much longer than your career. Personally, I think that is where your priorities should be. I turned down CWO because I didn't want to move my family again. Maybe it would have been a harder decision if the move would have been to somewhere other than Detroit. ;) Now I am faced with a possible short tour here and then would be moving prior to my oldest daughters senior year as well. If that happens, I will go as a geo for a year rather than do that to my daughter that has supported my career and moved 8 times in her life already. I understand that moving is part of the career, and the family has been very supportive, but the support needs to be a 2 way street. I will always respect the person more that puts his family first.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

And we're all talking about choice. Some of us are in the position to make those very choices. If it were made mandatory and we were retirement eligible.......?........ I myself would probably opt to go. If I look at taking the Gold/Silver Badge down here I might have to. I don't want to spend that five weeks away from the son, but it's a trade off. It's that Gold Badge here on the island or an 87 back in the states. And which state ? Where will that first yard period be, and for how long ?
As far as putting your family first..........our Sector Commander gave us his Command Priorities when he took over. In it, it says..."I expect your priorities to be your family, your health, and your job." Now I'll admit that I'm not that bright. But I'm smart enough to recognize that he's a smart man. What kind of a Chief would I be if a tried to reprioritize his Command Priorities ? For those of you having a hard time following me....my boss said that he expects me to put my family first. He thinks that I should think of them before I consider my own health, or my job.

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

Wow Stu, I just had an apiphany (sp?) I just realized that I am "pro choice". :eek:

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Yeah epiphany has an e, but now that you're pro choice, you can spell it anyway you want. I'm pro-life. Military life that is. I think that anything that they want us to do, should be made manditory. It's like hair cuts...they don't suggest that we get them, they lay it right out. Weight standards....laid right out. Not enforced, but laid out. This will be an issue as long as people can choose. If it's made manditory, people will be able to choose whether or not they want to become Chiefs. The choice will always be there, they just become more limited the older you get.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

This will be an issue as long as people can choose. If it's made manditory, people will be able to choose whether or not they want to become Chiefs. The choice will always be there, they just become more limited the older you get.

And this is what I've said every time this issue comes up. For this to be effective, it has to be mandatory! As people come up in the CG, they will know that they have to attend...it will be a given. If you want to join the brotherhood of Chiefs, you'll get initiated (under my plan) & attend the academy. Dont do either...then you can't join the brotherhood.

As far as the being away from family issue...I agree. Very few of us want to be away from our families. But, if this were mandatory, people would know well in advance that this was coming.

[BMCM Bruce Bradley]

Please don't tell me that someone would make the decision not to attend the CPO Academy based soley upon time away from family because of the length of the school. But then again we have problems with having members being sailors and getting underway too.

And Deane not to be the PC Police, but I know a couple of Chiefs out there who don't like being part of a "brother"hood. Why don't we just call it The Mess.

[BMC John Phillips III]

I have to agree with both Art and Ken here. I don't know about making either of you a "better Chief", but certainly putting your family fi Those are title's that you will likely hold much longer than your career.

Another thing they teach at the Academy is to step back and not get so wrapped around your career. Some people obviously don't need to be told that, but some people do get their eyes opened up as where they are and where they should be.

[FSC Jayare Parker (Ret)]

Why should they make going to the chief's acadamy mandatory to become a Chief but not make it mandatory to go through CCTI to become a Chief?

If someone doesn't go through CCTI but they go to the acadamy that makes them eligable to be a cmc?

Does anyone else think this is backwards or is it just me?

Jayare

[BMCM Deane Smith]

And Deane not to be the PC Police, but I know a couple of Chiefs out there who don't like being part of a "brother"hood. Why don't we just call it The Mess.


For someone who didn't want to be the PC Police, you jumped right in there. Call it what you want...you got my point.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Why should they make going to the chief's acadamy mandatory to become a Chief but not make it mandatory to go through CCTI to become a Chief?

If someone doesn't go through CCTI but they go to the acadamy that makes them eligable to be a cmc?

Does anyone else think this is backwards or is it just me?



Jayare...you're points are all very valid and I agree with you 100%. That's why the CCTI & CPOA should be mandatory to make Chief.

[BMC John Phillips III]

And Deane not to be the PC Police, but I know a couple of Chiefs out there who don't like being part of a "brother"hood. Why don't we just call it The Mess.

I agree. The term brotherhood does not bode well with me.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Jayare,

You are right on the money. When we integrate the CPO Academy and the CCTI process that works hand-in-hand and builds better CPOs then we only become better as a CG Mess.

MCPO Bowen and Admiral Allen are holding a mandatory Chiefs Call this morning in Portsmouth, seems like a good topic to discuss.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Bruce, I'll be the first to openly admit it. I wouldn't apply for the Academy based soley on the time that I would be away from my family. But you can't compare the Academy with being on a ship. I have fourteen years afloat. Being underway is a requirement for those attached to the cutter. You know that when you get your orders. It's something that you need to do. The Academy is an option. I was never required to go. It was never a requirement for advancement. It wasn't a requirement for OinC. It wasn't a requirement for an position that I asked for. Why would I apply for something that takes me away from my family for something that I feel as though I don't need, and for something the CG says, hey Slesh, YOU don't need this. Other people might, but we're going to grandfather you in, because we feel as though you don't need it. You're good, carry on.
And I know I'm not alone. If they made it strictly voluntary, fewer people would apply.
Most people with families base many of their career choices on.....you guessed it....their family. People ask for assignments, seek or reject advancements, based on the needs of their family. Even the people seeking those 378's are looking for the ones where they can meet the needs of their family. People have sought or avoided OCONUS assignments based on the needs of their family.
I don't see how people expect them to ignore the family and attend a 5 week school that isn't required.

Now if they make it a requirement, then the story changes.

And Bruce your a BM, answer this for me. If the CG told you that you could have an OinC job, even though you never sat for an OinC review board, would you take it, or demand to sit before the board first ? If they said the people whose last name starts with one of the first three letters of the alphabet didn't need to be OinC qualified before applying for E-8, and they sent you the test, would you wait for your ashore and afloat certification before taking it ? I knew former QMs who scrambled to take that test. You can't fault them, they met the standard the CG set for them.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

So I posed the question to MCPO-CG and Adm Allen on riday at the Portsmouth Chiefs Call and here is the general answer that was given:

The Coast Guard is looking at developing a leadership school/program at the E4/5 level. (I know, we have all heard that before)

At this point, there is no decision to make the CPO Academy mandatory prior to making Chief. I see many positives to that, but there would have to be some changes to the way we conduct our advancements, etc.

It was alos passed that in recent CPO Academy classes, there have been Border Patrol and Customs Agents attending as a test. I'm not sure what the long range plan for that would be, but it certainly will help with integrating and merging us with the DHS World the same way that USAF students have integrated us with our DoD counterparts.

[BMCM Bruce Bradley]

Stu, and speaking of underway I just got back from patrol (got 16 years and counting). I'll support your right to not attend, after all isn't that why we wear uniforms anuway so that we can make choices. I don't understand it, but it's your career and your choice. But with that are you saying that every school you have attended has been a requirement for your job? There have been none that you wanted to attend that were not requirements? No desire to attend something that might help out or improve or maybe just to experiment?

I think that it is a very interesting command philosphy that your boss has. I truely wonder how it works out in the real world. "Sorry Captain but that patrol this week kind of conflicts with the sons birthday so I'll pass on it this tie around". Or am I reading too much into what you wrote?

And I suspect that with no review boad process that we would have alot more RFCs to discuss here.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Every school that I attended was job related or job required. All of the best training that I've received was on the job. Same as the seminars I've attended. I went to the ones required. If the CG didn't tell me I needed it, I agreed, and didn't go. I've always been operational. I've never found the time to just try something out. I've been too busy meeting the things that I was required to do.

You are reading too much into my boss' Command Philosophy. Our WP are running in one of the most demanding operational arenas. The mission must get done. But he wants people who are devoted to their families. If people really put their families first, how many personnel issues would we be facing ?
If people thought of their families before they drank, gambled, ran around, or bought things that they couldn't afford, were derelict in their duties....etc.

And I don't agree with the RFC issue either. Most people get relieved during their second or third tour. I would argue that the people that get assigned without the certification tend to focus more on their job, than themself. Look at the most recent RFCs that we've had, it wasn't a poor screening process that led to their downfall. If anyone of them had put their family first, they would have re-thought the decision that led to them getting relieved.

But that wasn't my question. If YOU were told the YOU didn't have to go through the OinC process, would YOU have still done it ? I wouldn't have. And Bruce, I am what the CG made me. I was the BS police. I was the guy that raised the BS flag on everything. Do you know what the CG taught me ? Do what you're told. I live a stress free life. I used to worry about every decision that came my way. I used to fight every fight. You know the analoy about wisdom ? You start off fighting every fight, as you get wiser, you only fight those that you know that you can win, as you get truely wiser, you only fight those worth winning. I'll go the extra mile, until I'm directed to stop. The CG taught me that the more I'm willing to listen those people appointed above me, the better my marks, the higher my awards, the easier my life. And in turn, the easier life is on my people. The CG taught me to meet the standard. I'm meeting the CG standard. When they raise that standard, I'll meet it. If people lived and worked by that philosophy, no one would get RFC. The people being RFC are putting themselves first. What's in their best interest. They aren't holding themselves accountable to the CG standard. It doesn't matter how many times they go through a screening process, people like that will always be relieved as soon as someone holds them accountable.

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

Stu, I may be wrong here and certainly don't intend to offend, but it sounds to me like your are saying that you make every effort to maintain "status quo". What happened to making things better? Going the extra mile? Raising the bar? Leaving things better than you found them? I was always taught that the standard was a "4". If you want more than a "4", then you need to exceed the standard. Go the extra mile, raise the bar... I am not privy to all the reasons behind recent or any RFC's, but I would venture to guess that is it because someone decided that policy did not apply to them. When someone does not meet the standard, does not live the core values... then they reap what they sow.
Based soley on what I have read in your postings, I think that you are probably one that does much more than status quo. What I suspect, and please correct me if I am wrong (I am sure you will) is that you see little value in the CPOA for you in your current situation and career status. Certainly not enough value for you to take the time away from your family. It may well be the case that if you did go that you would return with little return on your time investment. But my question is this... If that is the case, then how much would others that attend the same class learn from someone like you, being there and sharing your experience with them? How much impact would you have on a younger and less experienced Chief's mess? While the instructors are hand selected and good at what they do, they are only a small part of the curriculum. Maybe you should not go to the CPOA for you. Maybe you should go for others. For the good of the Chief's that are going to improve themselves as Chiefs. Your family has obviously supported you through your career, maybe they would be willing to support you in this effort as well. You never know, maybe you will get something out of it after all. Remember Jerald and the CCTI?

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Jim, I think I would get something out of the CPO Academy. I think that I could get something out of any school. I could probably get something out of coxswain "C" school. But I won't go if it weren't required. I know that others could get something out of my being there. But what about the person who didn't because I took a billet.
I don't want it to seem like I hide in the corner and hope no one looks my way, I'm far too vocal for that. But once the CG or one of the people I work for says stop, we're going a different route, I stop. The CG changed course on the requirement for the Academy.
I'm all for going the extra mile......just make sure that you're going in the right direction. If the CG said I didn't need the Academy, would going anyway really be going that extra mile, or would it be a boondoggle ?

Same question to you. If the CG said that you didn't need to sit for an OinC review board, would you have sat anyway ? Couldn't the members of the board have learned something from you. Couldn't you have helped improve the system ?
To me the CG is saying the people that they grandfathered in didn't need it. They also didn't want them taking the seats of other people that did. When they weren't filling those seats, the opened it back up to the people who wanted to go.
Have you ever attended a school that you didn't need....just because.
The only thing that wasn't job related that I ever volunteered for was the hynpothermia tests. Jump into freezing water for an hour and a half or until your body core reaches 93 degrees. The CG "needed" people and I fit the body type.
As far as marks.....4 is the CG standard. But who's enforcing that. I exceed the standards and expectations of my boss.....at least that's how they see it.

[BMCM Bruce Bradley]

Stu, yes I did skip the question originally. And no I wouldn't go through a board if it wasn't required. But at the point that I did go to the back years ago was also the same time that started asking to have the big chair. I thought I was ready, so did my bosses and so did the board. The rest is assignment history.

And I'll credit Jim with writing it better than I did above looking for the same type of answer. You say that you have attended training that was either required or job related. One of the top training objectives of the CPO Academy is leadership, not just on the job but in life. We all have different styles that have evolved during our careers from exposure to the styles of others. The Academy is an outstanding to not olny share but to pick up a new point of view or two. Hey it's only 5 weeks. A lot like BO School but without the daily beatings and a lot less painfull than dry-dock.

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

Stu, I have to tell you, I think your argument holds little water. The OIC review board is not about improving the member, or teaching him anything. That is not the purpose. It is about giving the "powers that be" a little confidence in an individuals ability to command. Would you give someone a coxswain letter because they went to coxswain "C" school without riding with them, or giving them an oral board? I think not. To answer your question. No, if I could rise to a command position based soley on the the recommendation of my OIC / CO, then I would not have gone through the board. (Well, maybe I would have, I got a couple days in Miami out of it)
As far as the CPOA goes, it was made mandatory to make "8" because the "powers that be" saw a need or the great value for the additional leadership training and tools provided to the Chiefs corps. The simple fact that you were grandfathered in does not mean that you would not benefit from it. It was simply a managerial decision that needed to be made to ensure that those newer Chiefs would get first shot. It is simply a return on investment decision for the Coast Guard. If it was made mandatory for all who wore an anchor, then there would have to be some consequence for those that chose not to go, and then there would have to be opportunity provided within a given time for those to attend. It is just easier to grandfather some in and wait for attrition to take it's toll. Now that there are seats going empty, the management might make other decisions.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Jim, for my arguement, holding little water, ....you're saying the same thing I am. I am not saying there wouldn't be a benifit in attending, I saying that there would. And I'm only using the OinC review board as a CG requirement that people would opt out of if given the opportunity. Remember the Academy "used to be" a requirement to make E-9. When they, the CG, grandfather that in, they made it an option for some people to attend. For what ever reason they did it, they said you don't need it in your career. I'm saying, if they want to bill it as this needed leadership tool.....why isn't it mandatory.

Bruce, same thing....why isn't it a requirement already ? And BO school is the perfect example. I went to that because it was required. If I could have just done the pracs at the unit, I wouldn't have gone. And I went during a dock-side in Miami. Worst of one world, best of the other....... And I really don't need the CG telling me how to live my life.

Back to Jim....the OinC Review "Process" is, IMO, a way to improve the candidate. People get back into books, and review current policies. People do learn things during the process. Everyone who goes through that process can take something positive away with them.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Stu, if you get that CMC job, will you go?

I think ALL CMC/CSC must go. How can a gold or silver badge sell it, from those positions if they have not been?

BO school is required now? Or was that a unit requirement? I am a BO and have never been. But, I haven't done LE since 1999 so everything may be different.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Burt, if the CG tells me I need it, I'll go. I still don't know if it will be a requirement if those sector jobs are listed as "Silver" Badges. I can't find that 1306.1A (modified) ????????
BO school was required as part of the pipe line training prior to showing up on the mighty OCRACOKE because I hadn't been to BO school in over five years. The first time I attended was the three week school up at Otis that was required by the unit.

As far as selling something that you yourself haven't bought....... I could stick to the point about it being a requirement for them to advance. Much the same way that a CO, or CMC/CSC tries to sell the OinC review board to BMs. I won't have to go through alcohol counseling in order to recommend it to someone that I feel needs it..............

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

I won't have to go through alcohol counseling in order to recommend it to someone that I feel needs it..............
Stu, but you do need to be sprayed in the face with pepper spray before you can carry it or spray anyone else. :eek:
Speaking of mandatory pipeline BO school. I went to the VASHON as a BM2. I got pipeline orders to BO school. I didn't know that because I was at a base across town from the Group and the YN was good enough to file the message without letting anyone know. I found out when BO school called and wondered where I was. Hmmmm. My wife was a few weeks away from giving birth and BO school asked if I could get on a plane that day and leave her for 5 weeks. My answer... NO! I didn't get to go to BO school until my unit after the VASHON.
What I am getting at here, is that "mandatory" is a reletive term. What are the consequenses of not going? Mandatory to fill this or that job description, mandatory to advance beyond a certain point, or as this thread is about, mandatory to REMAIN a Chief?

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Back to the OinC issue. It's mandatory that you are certified as an OinC before taking an OinC billet...........unless the CG needs someone to fill it. And Jim, with the OC....if there was a way I could have gotten out of that, I would have.

Any policy that the CG comes up with will only have the teeth that they give it. If they want to say the this school is needed,....then they need to make going a requirement. As long as it's an option, people will opt out. The last D7 ADM made it his policy, that all requests to have orders to the Academy canceled be routed through his desk for approval. Once that happened, CO's stopped saying that their Chiefs couldn't go. No one wanted to talk to the ADM about how they couldn't live without that person for five weeks.

And attending the Academy is like getting those BMs to sit for the OinC Review board. As long as you're not making them do it.....it doesn't matter how critical you make it sound....people will opt not to go. Make it a require to remain a Chief.....and watch how many more people put in for Warrant. And they'll have the marks to compete.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Burt, if the CG tells me I need it, I'll go. I still don't know if it will be a requirement if those sector jobs are listed as "Silver" Badges. I can't find that 1306.1A (modified) ????????


Will you go if your Sector CO says you have to be his CMC? I am sure you will. But, wouldn't it market you better if you went before then? I know its not a requirement but the BO school you referenced was unit specific.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

See Burt, we're back to the enlistment oath I took. If someone above me tells me they want me to go in order to meet a job requirement....then I'll go. If they tell me that they'd like me to go because it could benefit me or someone else.........not going. No desire to spend five weeks so someone can feel better about something. No problem dedicating five weeks to meet a service requirement.
Follow me here....Do you want to get sprayed in the face with OC ? No. You have to get sprayed in the face with OC if you want to be a BO. Then I won't be a BO. You HAVE to be a BO in order to take orders to the unit that you wanted. Spray away.
Do you want to spend five weeks away from your family ? No. You have to go to the Academy in order to meet the requirements of that job that you want. Cut me orders.
If it just an option, I will never go. If it stands in the way of something that I want, I will attend. And as with everything else, if ordered to go, I will. No offense, but I've never had the desire to go to Alaska. I've never put in for it. If the CG cut me orders for Alaska tomorrow, do you know where I'd be ? If they solicited for someone to fill an emergency billet in Alaska, I'd never submit my name. If they asked for someone to restart Loran Station Estartite Spain, I'd e-mail, phone, fax, mail and pony express my name to them.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

I understand where you are coming from. But what i asked was wouldn't it look better on your resume if you went?

Do you think all Gold badges should go?

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

All Gold Badges HAVE TO go. It is a requirement for them to attend. It is highly RECOMMENDED for the Silver Badges that have it as a collateral duty. That's why I'm curious what that 1306.1A (modified) says.
As far as a resume ? I think at this point they either want you or they don't. You either meet the requirements or you don't. I think that if you were on the fence about someone who hadn't attended but was willing to before they filled the position you'd give it to them. Now if they hadn't been and refused to go ? It depends how important that Sector CDR feels about the Academy.

But to answer your question do "I" think that they should have to had attended. No I don't. If they met the requirements to advance, they should be good to go. If you were grandfathered into a program, that grandfather claus should cover everything. If you need it to be a CMC, all E-9s should have to go. But I would also allow someone with a tatoo on their forearm to be the CMC.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

But I would also allow someone with a tatoo on their forearm to be the CMC.

Well then maybe I could be a CMC since I do have tats on my forearms.

Thanks Stu. The retired CMC D17 West, had never been to the CPOA. He did a great jopb as our CMC I was just curious how you felt since you are considering a sector job.

Burt

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

And that goes back to Jim's "what's mandatory ?"

I don't think that there's a cure all for an situation that you might face in the CG. As far as CMCs go, I think that a person who wants to do the job will always be better at it than someone who doesn't, regardless of their training and background. That being said..........stand by...........I would rather that the CMC was married and had kids at some point in their career.

[LT Arthur Nelson (MKC) (Ret)]

This is much like the past and on-going discussions whether, or not, a PCPO should attend the CCTI. Many of those who ask why; they ask - what will I get out of it? Especially those who may have already the CGA but not the CCTI...
If it's not required, other than "tradition and welllll because..." based on these discussions, why did those past folks brave enough in the past say why they had no desire to attend their CCTI, why should they?

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Tradition or not...the CCTI is required. It is required if you want to become part of the Mess. You can't really be part of the Mess if you're told to leave everytime the Mess starts to discuss certain issues. Going through the CCTI shows that you're willing to do what every member of that Mess has already done.

[MSTCM Jerald Motyka]

BUT - is it for the better of the individual and/or for the organization?

(Oh, God, he's not going back to that, is he?)

The CCTI is a great example of a tool to learn (no, REALLY learn) about networking and working together as a senior enlisted member of the organization. It benefits the member by teaching that the Chief's Mess is a tight group and that you can really rely on us to help you out if you need it - and that you should expect to help others out if they need it. It benefits the organization by getting the movers and shakers of the organization to work together as a cohesive group with a network of feelers throughout the entire system.

The Chief's Academy SHOULD be the same thing, but in my opinion, it should be the capstone of a long line of leadership schools the Coast Guard FORCES her members to attend.

Yeah, I've voted for "Mandatory".

I just wish we had the voting buttons for a REAL ELAMS and SPOLAMS training. "What's 'ELAMS'," you ask? ENLISTED LAMS. We do things that officers, auxiliarists and civilians DON'T and SHOULDN'T do... so why do we all train together?

Sorry, that's a rant for another thread... :mad:

[BMCS S. D. Peters]

Just my $.02. I attended the CPO academy and you get out of it what you put into it. It will not make you a leader (you should already be one by now) but it will put a few tools in the box to assist you. The best thing I got out of it was more contacts in my network. PACAREA has made it mandatory for all Chiefs to attend the academy or an equivalent school. If you read the following string of email they are actually tracking it.

To all,

The email below is from CMC Kevin Isherwood, PACAREA CMC. Please pass this information along to your Chiefs that have not attend the CPO Academy or equivalent service school. All Chiefs are required to attend the CPO Academy or equivalent service school in order to advance. Additionally, IAW the Pacific Area People Plan the CPO Academy or equivalent service school is mandatory for ALL Chief's in the Pacific Area. All Chiefs that have not attended need to submit the required STTR. All Chiefs with approved retirement letters are exempt, but are encouraged to attend.

If you have attended the CPO Academy or equivalent service school and your name is on the list make sure that your name is updated in Direct Access.

Also as a reminder please review the current Weight Standards before attending or applying for the CPO Academy or other service schools. Other service schools such as the Air Force or Navy have different standards for weight.

I am a firm believer in the CPO Academy and an ardent supporter of the program. It is my hope that we will have similar leadership programs in the future for our Junior Members, but until that time all Chiefs need to attend. As always if you have any questions to please give me a call.

CMC Vanderwerf
(907)463-2036


-----Original Message-----
From: Isherwood, Kevin CMC
Subject: CPO Academy Attendance 13Jul06
Importance: High


>Command Chiefs,
> Greetings. Attached you will find a spread sheet (Last updated 13JUL06) containing the Chief Petty Officers (7, 8 & 9s) in our AOR that have not attended the CPO Academy.

For the current list of Chiefs that HAVE attended the CPO Academy or a sister service equivalent, go to http://cgweb.pacarea.uscg.mil/pcmc/ <Click> "CPO Academy" <Click> "Attendance List".

> I am not sure if you are aware of this or not; the CPO Academy is one of the VERY few fully funded, fully staffed under utilized programs in the CG and we are squandering valuable training quotas each class with empty seats. As most of you do know, the PACAREAINST5357.2 Pacific Theater People Plan (para7.f.2) requires that the Command Chiefs ensure that ALL Chiefs at their unit attend the CPO Academy or sister service equivalent. To clarify the intent of the instruction, "if an active duty or reserve Chief, Senior Chief, or Master Chief Petty Officer at your unit has an approved retirement letter on file they are exempt. All other Chiefs shall submit the required STTR)"

> Please schedule your Chief Petty Officers to attend this fantastic personal and professional leadership development opportunity. The return on this training investment can be priceless for the member, the unit and for the Coast Guard. As always if you have questions or concerns, do not hesitate to contact me.
>
> This information was mined from Direct Access, as with all data pulls, there may be errors in the results.
>
>Yours in Service and Support,
>
>Kevin Isherwood, Command Master Chief
>Pacific Area
>Coast Guard Island (Bldg 51-6)
>Alameda, CA 94501-5100
>Office (510)437-3070
>Cell (510)219-1714
>"Shipmates rarely fail alone…. Unless left alone"
>http://cgweb.pacarea.uscg.mil/pcmc/
>

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Well we put it forth to the MCPOCG today. He said that he would like to see it become mandatory, and they are looking at ways to impliment and enforce that. I'm not sure what PACAREA is doing for people that don't want to or won't go ?
But they will start soliciting for those CMC/CSC jobs that they created real soon and attending the Academy will be a requirement. They might issue waivers if someone hasn't attended, but would you want to gamble on that ?

And another thing that the Mess down here suggested.......Making the CPOA a requirement before someone can submit a Warrant package. It might grow legs.............

[PAC Jamie Devitt-Chacon (Ret)]

When Master Chief Isherwood was here, he basically put it like this:

Either you go when YOU want to go, or you'll go when WE want you to go. Policy to be implemented VERY SOON.

Personally, I thought it was the best training I have ever received. It is a school like none other. There were 60 Coast Guard Chiefs, and 4 Air Force Master Seargents. They are now all part of my extended network, as are all of you.

I went because I try to take opportunities to help me become a better leader and a better chief. Life is a journey, not a destination. (Who said that?)

[MKC Harold Whitt]

Please schedule your Chief Petty Officers to attend this fantastic personal and professional leadership development opportunity. The return on this training investment can be priceless for the member, the unit and for the Coast Guard.

IF it is so "priceless" why does a reservist only do 2 weeks .... and I am not talking about the reservist who drills every once in a while and does 2 wks IDT....

I am talking about folks on title 10 Since 9/11, who are leading our "regular' enlisted folks everyday .... what does he or she take away in 2 weeks that has to absoloutley cost me 5 weeks of my "Priceless" home time?

seems a rather large disparity on something that is so "pricless" and that is being sold so hard from the upper levels

I think if it so damned important to somone that we all go then we should all go to the same school....


H

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Whitt, I'm guessing it was to accomodate the 2 week IDT requirement for the Reservists. Prior to 9/11 we didn't have that many Reservists on Title 10.

I would agree with you that if they are on a Title 10 or an ADT Contract, they should attend the full 5 week version.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I'm with you Harold........what three weeks did they cut out ? If they can eliminate over half the curriculum and still give full credit for attending........ If it is in fact priceless, people shouldn't worry about paying a little for it.

[BMCM Bruce Bradley]

I agree, one Academy, one standard for all of Team Coast Guard. Or maybe if it is becomng a condition of employment the it will become shorter for all. I doubt it but that might be a good question to push back up the chain for the next one who gets a visit by Skip.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

I get the ADT issue with reserves and that is why (I assume) it is shorter for our reserve chiefs. Having said that, there are other funding sources for reserves that they could probably use to get the total package.

I wonder what the other services are doing? Does anyone know? Do they have an abbreviated academy? When I attended the AFSNCOA, I could have swore that we had reserves in our flight, but I can't say for sure. I'm just curious if this is happening in all services or just the CG?

[BMCM Bruce Bradley]

Deane, yes the Air Force sends their Reserves to the full blown course. There were at least 8 reserve AF members in my class with 2 in my flight.

[DCCS Todd Holcomb]

Senior,
I can't say about the senior enlisted schools for other services, but one of my guys graduated from Airman Leadership School about a month back and when I visited his class it was about 50% reservist/ active duty. This school is a requirement for them to "promote" to E-5 so it appears it is one standard for them.

I agree it seems that the reserves seem to get full credit for shortened versions of the active duty schools, and when called upon fill EAD contracts and have the same interaction with junior members as any of you or I do, so yes, why is the 2 week version acceptable for someone who may be doing the same thing as I am only under a different contract. I say 1 school for everyone, across the board whether it's CPOA, LAMS, BO, BTM or any other schools that are shortened for Reserves.

Todd

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I'm soon to be in compliance.... I received orders for the Oct class today.

[BMCS T. D. Ellis]

Stu, the only way you could be out of compliance is if you were carrying 2 sacks of cement in your pockets, and even then I think you'd pass because your body fat % would save you.

I pity the CPO Academy instructors but wish I could be a fly on the wall while your there.

[MKC Art Bailly (Ret)]

Have fun being the class president. Senior person gets the job and not many master chiefs attend these days.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I was once told that they try and set aside three or four seats per class for 8s and 9s. I'm looking at the rooster and only see only me and one 8. Lots of BMs and MKs........

[PACS Steve Carleton]

To qoute the Auburn University Fans out there, "Give'm Hell"

No really, THe CPO Academy is like every other training that we attend, go ith an open mind, listen, keep what you need, and either leave the rest or put it away in your toolbox for future use.

[AMTC Kevin Langlois]

I was once told that they try and set aside three or four seats per class for 8s and 9s. I'm looking at the rooster and only see only me and one 8. Lots of BMs and MKs........


Hey Hey Master Chief!

I am attending CPOACAD right now...let me know if I can do anything to ease the transition for you...it's a little colder here than I remember it being in PR...you may want to dig your Eisenhower jacket out of the sea bag :D . I have a temp e-mail address in the global if you have questions.

V/R

Kevin (CPOACAD Class CXXXVII)

P.S. Get ready to meet Bob while you're here...you won't ever forget him :rolleyes: !

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Do you wear trops everyday ? Someone once told me that their class voted on it ? I was wondering if after the COMDT authorized it in the office if some of the classes didn't follow suit.........no pun intended.

[BMC Mark Emerson]

When I went it was trops and combo covers everyday. I came from Hawaii and wore my jacket alot. Hope you have fun with Bob. Barney for the big people.

[AMTC Kevin Langlois]

It is Tropical Blue (long) with the Combo Cap, some days are appropriate civilian attire (Dockers and Polo shirts). I know it may seem like a pain...but I can't imagine how much it would have sucked to bring ODU's across country, along with a dinner dress uniform and civies...PT gear...hiking boots...the bags would have gotten mighty heavy, and many airlines only allow 50 lbs. per bag now...