ICS Courses

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

Does anybody feel more knowledgeable, better informed, or smarter for having to take these courses? Do they really make a difference?

[PACS Steve Carleton]

The course as it is on the FEMA website now? No. My experience with an asignment at the National Strike Force, with plenty of hands-on? Yes.

Think of ICS in terms of what we do now, everyday in the military:

We have a Planning Function
We have a Logisitics Function
We have an Operations Function
We have a Finance Function
We have a Command and Control Function

The important thing to rememeber is that we will be working with other agencies/entities/organizations that all do the same thing, they just do it slightly different, not that it is wrong just different.

When have to merge to respond to an oil spill, a fire, a terrorist event, a catastrophic loss of live at sea, we will be working with these people and we all have to strip away our agency affiliations and remember that we are working for the good of the response effort.

Considering that anytime, any one Coast Guardsman can be pulled into the response function inany of the above noted capacities, if you don't have the understanding and base knowledge of how it works can only be a good thing.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

I disagree. I think that the majority of enlisted personnel forget these lessons ten minutes after they finish the test because they are not applicable in our day-to-day responsibilities.

[ETC Pat Kaschube]

I disagree. I think that the majority of enlisted personnel forget these lessons ten minutes after they finish the test because they are not applicable in our day-to-day responsibilities.

Totally agree. These are probably benificial for strike team folks but the rest of us, well if you don't use it you loose it.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I have a shorter attention span. I retained the information long enough to pass the test, and then it was gone. The only thing that I remember is that I need to check in and do exactly what I am told. But I think I may have already known that.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Dennis,

Think of these courses as being similar to how an A or C School or even boot camp works:

They are designed to give you the base knowledge to understand in basic terms how it works. Certainly hands-on is the way to go, but that is not practical in this case.

I would never suggest that once you take the online course it automatically makes you an ICS Guru. You are right, if you don't use, it you lose it. But we are in a situation today that dictates we understand ICS and have enough knowledge to function within a Unified Command Structure.

This isn't anything new here, the Fire Service has been using it for 30 years, the Coast Guard M world has been using for about 15 years, what's the big push back? The training? The fact that you don't use it daily? Look at my previous post, you do use it in some capacity, you just don't realize it.

Look at many of the After Action Reports on the Hurricane, one of the biggest problems was the ability to "get things done" Listen to former Secretary Brown whining to Brian Williams on NBC, if he had a better idea on how an ICS system worked he wouldn't have had to "stay up for 24 hours screaming at people to get things done"

It is naive to think that anyone on this board couldn't be pulled in to fill a position in ICS/NIMS -- Look at the way the Coast Guard pulled people in from all over the Coast Guard to fly helicopters with mixed crews, to set displaced AtoN, manned mixed boat crews.

By having the ability to integrate seamlessly into a boat/aircraft/Command and Control function is one of our strong points -- Having the base knowledge to be able to be inserted into the ICS structure is just as important as the ability to be inserted into a mixed boat/air crew to complete the mission.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

If I am using it in some capactity and don't realize it, I don't need the formal training.

I have some familiarity with the ICS from some graduate level work I did. And, I'm here to tell you, I'd be shocked to see any enlisted (including Chiefs) be set up in any of the ICS positions. That's going to be an officer thing.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Dennis,

I guess you and I are going to have to disagree on that being an "officer thing"

I have been to many an oil spill where an E5 was a section leader -- I've seen SK2's leading the Finance Section, I have seen BM1's acting as deputy Operations Section Leaders, and no they were not Strike Team Members (CG NSF).

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Uh what is ICS?

[MSTC Michael Schmidtke]

The purpose of the training is talking the talk. Everyone should knows that if someone is a "Chief", then they are a Section Chief and not an E-7, and a strike team isn't a unit in the Coast Guard, its a combination of the same kind and type of resources.

People need to know the lingo.

[MKC Art Bailly (ret)]

I agree with Stu and to throw something else out there. I look at it like this. Does ISC work? Apparently not just look at Katrina. The only agency to get kudos was the Coast Guard. It seems to me that we already know how to get it done as a team, have the knowledge and skills to do the right thing right. So why is it that we have to learn a new system that doesn’t work? Maybe just maybe the other agencies should be looking at the way we get things done and follow our lead. After all we have proven time and time again that the coast guard is the best of the best when is come to search and rescue. Let the experts train the trainees and not the other way around. Sure I have completed ICS 100, 200, 700, and 800 but do I remember any of it? A few terms might ring a bell. What a waste of time.

[SKC Ronald Brumble]

ICS can work but it really depends on cooperation between all agencies involved. I have been through one CG only ICS, and three Drills that were multiagency. Wow, I'll tell you what, those Multiagency ones are crazy :eek: . Even though they were drills I learned a lot. I think the overall Idea of ICS is sound. But, when the poo hits the fan, so many aspects of ICS can get overlooked and that is where things start to go wrong.

With Katrina, in my humble opinion, no mater what plan or type of organization they used; it would not have been enough. Let’s face it; NO ONE was prepared for that. Look at what other countries do to control flooding and tidal problems. Look at Venice; look at how much money those governments have dumped into those projects. Now that we have seen first hand, we as a country see the value in that kind of expenditure.

The best that we can hope for is that we learn from our mistake and take appropriate actions to prevent this from happening again.

However, back to the ICS thing, I like it. I think it can work well as long as there are enough trained personnel working that incident who understand how the ICS works. I think the reason we did so well is we were all on the same page as far as ICS. The Rescue teams knew their job, the team leaders knew their job, and the responders knew who to talk to, to coordinate their efforts. Like you said, we do this sort of stuff all the time. We already follow ICS to a certain degree. We use it for spills all the time. Since I left my old unit they have responded to two spills using the ICS system.

It is not enough that the CG, some firefighters and a few select others are the only ones to use it affectively.

[OSCS Jimmy D. Belcher]

It is something we have all been doing since enlisting in the Coast Guard. Basically the only thing changed is terminology so all levels of the government can work together (federal, state, and local). The Boat Station has people in charge of logistics who report to somebody then there is the planning section who tells people when they are training or even standing duty and they report to the same person that logistics does. This works for finance ICS is just a way to pull everybody on to the same sheet of music. It does not change our way of doing things (ie LE, SAR, MEP, etc.)

[BMC Ken Gouge]

This is an easy one. No we don't gain much from it. We are the benchmark, the standard. We have proved it over and over. Since entering the DHS as a stand-alone entity (without under-secretaries etc.) unlike other agencies, those agencies wanted what we have - a better way of doing things.

As with all governmet processes they have to quantify it and give it names. A perfect example was TQM, the associated buzzwords and the fact that we had always done it even if we didn't know it.

This is just an attempt to get other agencies up to our standards, all we have to do is learn the new names.

[BMCS John Brady - Ret.]

Hey Burt, old Activities Baltimore pushed this real hard..... It apparently has been used by the Forest Service or Federal Fire Service (see how much I retained) for command and control of large forest fires. Basically a division of labor and game plan by setting up departments (uhhh like Prevention, Response, Logistics, they use some different terminology).

I have to agree with Stuart and some of the other posts here, ICS to me seems like "M" folks saying, gee!!!we are in the military. All of the stuff in ICS; chain of command, communications, logistics, etc etc have always been there and it is kind of what keeps the cutters, aircraft, boats going......

I have been involved in several multi-agency ops (state and local) and the thing I have seen work best is having a decision maker for each agency at command center for the evolution (major SAR, marine event, etc). Most of these agencies have never heard of ICS and are reluctant to turn over "control" to some CG Officer who may or may not know what is going on.

I did almost get thrown out of ICS tra in Baltimore(after you left Burt) because I asked "Aren't we already doing this???" Oh and I think I said this is gay gay gay gay.

JB

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

Well John, if you think that is bad.... I was doing the online course and when I said what I thought about it, my computer locked up and I had to come back at a later time and do it all over again. :D

Jim

[ETC Pat Kaschube]

Well John, if you think that is bad.... I was doing the online course and when I said what I thought about it, my computer locked up and I had to come back at a later time and do it all over again. :D

Jim

Maybe your computer knew what was about to be said and couldn't handle it.

[BMC Ralph Williams]

I played connect the dots and still passed all of the courses!

[MSTCS Jerald P. Motyka]

Actually, to offer a counterpoint, ICS DOES work - when it is used properly - and Katrina is a perfect example.

The Coasties involved launched into ICS rather fast - and we did a good job. We integrated into parish and local stake-holders and kicked some pretty amazing ass.

Louisiana didn't wanna play - and it showed.

FEMA is an organization that we don't often interface with, and they did what many federal agencies do when they got there... saying "I'm with the government and I'm in charge." They were in charge... of themselves... and they didn't integrate with anyone, and it showed.

Like the AMAZINGLY boring training showed, the ICS system was borne of the National Firefighting community after years of dealing with wildfires out west. All they have to do is holler and say where HQ is, and everything falls into place. We are new-comers in this, and the legacy "M" folks have embraced the concept, and it works... IF all the players actually play.

I was at the TWA-800 crash site as a scummy little Second Class - and I got a birds-eye view of what happens when all the players come together and announce, "I'm here and I'm in charge!" It was bedlam, from Coast Guard to ATF to FBI to NTSB to the local cops... the only people that had their act together was the Red Cross. It wasn't until I saw ICS in action that I became a believer.

All this being said - I agree - the "training" broke the laws of physics - by both sucking and blowing at the same time. :rolleyes: I learned NOTHING.

[ETC Pat Kaschube]

I played connect the dots and still passed all of the courses!

Hey Ralph
You must have been practicing your cribbage game.

[ETC Pat Kaschube]

Jerald
I don't think that the courses are all that bad of an idea except for the fact that there is a very good possibility that this ESD or the folks that work at this ESD will ever be put into this kind of situation. I have a feeling there are a bunch of other units out there that are in the same boat.
Is it good to understand the concept? Definately but my point is I took time away from the units I support so the guys could complete the course's. We have Strike Teams for these kinds of situations. Katrina was pretty much THE worst case scenario. I would think that the Coast Guard would want Strike Team members to set up the command centers and as bodies file in that the Strike Team would put them to use.
If I were to go to any of the folks that took those courses and just asked a few questions I would bet that they would look at me with a blank stare. Basically the ICS courses were a great big exercise in how to data dump to check the box.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

JB, you would do something like that!

I agree with some, the ICS concept is not new to us. The training was just there to ry and show you the civilian names so you would know if needed. Every ICS, at our level, should have an Officer we report too. So, it is just business as usual for us.

[SKC Eric S. Highland]

My 2 cents worth...

ICS is a fantastic tool for accomplishing a greater task that involves a multi-agency effort, but it is only as good as the level of training that the personnel participating have.

When I was stationed at MSO Puget Sound, we used the ICS model in actual situations as well as trained in it during mock evolutions.

The system when done right, actually is quite amazing and very effective for a coordinated effort between various groups not used to working together.

Back then, I was one supposedly one of two of the "highest" level trained Logistics types for the Coast Guard in ICS. Understand that I received literally close to a hundred thousand dollars worth of training in the Logistics area of ICS. I was supposed to be placed on a national registry in case of major disasters, attacks or emergencies that was supposedly maintained somewhere within the hallowed halls of the puzzle palace. They were to use this list to bring in the "ICS experts" when something of a national level occurred.

9-11 came and went, I was never called. Katrina came and went and I was never called off of this supposed "list" to go.

I did deploy with my unit PSU 307 as initial responders to Hurricane Katrina, but I was never once contacted by HQ to "rush to the aid" of the ICS team.

Which goes to show, that not only is the problem the lack of training in the system, but that those who have received significant training slip through the cracks.

But having been exposed to ICS in significant measure, I can honestly say that when it operates as designed, it is a pretty impressive Command System that allows various agencies with differing chains of command to cooperate toward a mutual goal with limited friction and proper documentation for after the event.

v/r

[BMC Ken Gouge]

ICS is a fine attempt by the government to get us on the same page. When you are running a SAR case with the local PD, Fire Department, or other LOCAL rescue agencies they may or may not use those terms. That said the plan still works, they are just forcing it too far down the chain.

What is better is meeting the people in those local agencies. Talking to them, finding out what their training is like and cross-train. Find out what assets they can provide if needed, what their limitations are etc. and let them know yours. At station BF Egypt your chances of working with FEMA or another major agency is pretty slim, but you can bet that a good working relationship with BF Egypt Fire Rescue or Dive Team will be very valuable. Having your people invested in THAT is more valuable than a test they have forgotten as they completed it.

My point is that making SA smith right out of boot camp complete the tests is OVERKILL. OIC's, XPO's, OOD,s (or insert your favorite acronym for someone that might use it here) would be a good idea. I don't want SA Smith out looking for the operations section chief at the incident command post. All he/she needs to do is what the Petty Officer in charge says. Thats the thing ICS doesn't put enough emphasis on. We need people in charge but the fewer the better, and some poeple at the pointy end don't need to know chapter and verse as long as someone in their chain does.

[MSTC Michael Schmidtke]

You guys are killing me....I'm at the NSFCC now and work WITH the guy that is now coordinating all of the ICS instructors.

First off, from the President....ICS is going to be used by everyone in the US. Government! Like it or not! I don't care if you think its a waste of time....YOU AND EVERYONE AROUND YOU MUST KNOW IT!!!!! THIS is a directive from the PRESIDENT!!!! Do I need to put in CAPS again??? Put your bellyaching aside and step up to the plate.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

There's a big difference between the CG using the ICS structure for responses and SA Smith needing to know the details of it and require him to take a test on it as soon as he reports to my unit. SA Smith only needs to know when to take in line one and what his ordered course is. He can let me (his OINC) worry about who to report to and how to addess them, SA Smith needs to only worry about reporting to me. EVERYONE does not need to take the test...sorry Mr. President you need to hear this. People in command elements or operation centers should have an understanding, but SA Smith does not.

[BMC Ken Gouge]

Thanks Deane. This is what we get when we let the duck-scrubbers in on our operations :D

Schmidtke, I hope Deanes reply was more to the point than mine, and understandable. As far as "bellyaching", get a grip. I took both tests and passed both. I also had to make sure those under my charge did as well.

That said, if there is any problem with an order from a superior, military protocol states that we step up and say "aye-aye" and carry it out. After it's done if it is appropriate we can question the order. Having carried it out I now have done my next duty which is to express the pure un-adulterated disdain I have for the way in which the order was given, in hopes the right person (maybe your friend?) will see the nature of the error and FIX IT!

Possibly it should be a prac for advancement, or a mandatory part of all indoctrinations in operational leadership (such as station OOD, U/W OOD...)

[MSTC Michael Schmidtke]

Possibly it should be a prac for advancement, or a mandatory part of all indoctrinations in operational leadership (such as station OOD, U/W OOD...)

If I'm not mistaken this is going to be included somewhere in the pracs, not sure where? I remember someone saying something about it, but I don't remember exactly where its going to be placed. I was in a blank drool during that part of the phoneconf.

As for the "bellyaching", your bosses at the Area's are complaining too, but sorry, people far above you and I have made the decision. And the guy I work with is only the coordinator of the ICS Instructors, not the program itself.

Congrats on passing the tests and getting your people to do the same. Good for you.