Military Courtesy An Bearing

[FSC LANCE HOLVOET]

Is it just me or has anyone else noticed a considerable degradation of military courtesy and bearing on the part of many our junior folks? It seems that all too often I have to "counsel" a young lad or lass about common military courtesy.

Phone manners seem to be non exsistent. I'll call a unit or office looking for the CHIEF in doing so identifying myself as a CHIEF then having the PO or non-rate continue to speak to me like I am one of their peers. No "yes CHIEF, no CHIEF" like I was brought up but a "yeah" and a "hold on please". I had this happen about two weeks ago and briefly counseled the lad. The other day his CHIEF decided to try and make me look like I was too enamored with my anchors. He did this from across the room full of other CHIEFS, which I intend to straighten out but that isn't the issue. The worst part about it was he made the excuse that we are at an AIRSTA. That really p....es me off. I didn't know that made a difference. Especailly when I know some very professional Aviators.

Another issue is greetings and the use of a cover, for some reason many of our young folks seem to think that either
A. Greetings are optional (usually I will wait till they pass and then say "how about a good morning CHIEF, afternoon CHIEF, F-YOU CHIEF, Something!")
B. Seniors are supposed to greet juniors first
C. Covers are an optional uniform item

Just thought I would get some more opinions.

[ETCS David Kroll]

Good point! And I think it is up to us to set the example and to continue to "counsel" our folks about the customs and curtesies. One of my many nicknames is "Hat Nazi" which was earned by my insisting that Chiefs, Seniors, and Masters all wear the proper device! Why do many Chief's(all included) think they have the right to NOT wear the collar device sized anchor and instead wear the garrison cap size on their ball caps? I've often heard the excuse that I'm a Chief, and I'll wear what I want to. I'm sorry but thats crap. We are the senior enlisted corps, we must set the example, not show people how to wear inappropiate items and get away with it.

So I encourage you all, set the example. How can you "counsel" junior people about not wearing a hat outdoors, or being out of uniform when you aren't even wearing a proper uniform.

Wow, that was a good vent, I feel better now. Thanks

[BMCS Dennis Endicott (Ret)]

Let's not forget that those junior guys are supposed to be making mistakes. The mistake is not the issue- it's the lack of response by someone that knows better (us). As long as your stopping and correcting them, then everything is as it should be.

As for the chief that tried to ridicule your intervention, Lance, I'd say that he was brought up poorly. And, that's not an easy thing to fix. Maybe if he starts to read this web site?

It all goes back to confrontation. I'll say it again...we have become a service afraid of confrontation. It needs to stop.

[MKCS Jon Menze]

Lance,
Have you ever got the greeting of "Yo" before. I agree with you that this is something getting out of hand everywhere. I have stopped many for not even gretting me at all. I have had to council a few people about it and it is not just with us. I have seen it as far as not giving the proper greeting to the CO. It almost seems like your talking to a wall at times.

[CWO Keith Wilbee (DCCS)]

Wow another great topic: Heres one of my "Sea Stories".
I was down in Petaluma attending several "C" schools, while there one night I decided to take the liberty van to Taco Bell, we dont have that here on the Island. Well there was two younger lads participating in driving and giving directions. I was a passenger and the other passenger was a female. Just passengers going to Taco Bell, These two start conversing about this and that, every other word was f***, and S**T, Screw this and thats Fu***d up. Me being a Chief in the finest service decide which course of action to take. (Good Chief/Bad Chief), I lean up to the front and ask both of them directly how long they had been in the service, Lets see Ive been in about 10 months, and Ive been in about 1.5 yrs. Chief Wilbee: Then im going to have to say that both of you have been in this service long enough to realize that using offensive language may offend someone. Ive been in the service awhile now, Im a Chief Petty Officer. Nice to meet you. Thats all it took, they sat at attention for a minute before I put them at ease. I spoke with the female passenger briefly because she was at a "C" school also. And I went about my business. Not another foul on the ride back to Base.
Nowadays I have to verbally acknowledge most Junior People, before it was always, Morning Chief, and they would get out of you way. I speak up constantly, some get it some dont.

[DCC Mitchell Penneau]

I agree there is a general lack of respect now days. I got one for you...How about this, a new guy (just out of boot no less) walks up to me and hold out his check in sheet and the words that come out of his mouth are "Quote" Dude you have to sign my check in paper before I can leave today. I was stunded to say the least. Did I set him streight you bet. But in my opinion it is the generation so many of the younger generation have almost no respect for anything. :eek: :eek: :eek:

[BMCS Dennis Endicott (Ret)]

Mitch- you can't blame it on the generation. I remember the old timers saying the same thing about my generation. I repeat...the junior people are supposed to make mistakes. And, we are supposed to step in and correct them. As long as that is happening, everything is OK.

[MKCS Jon Menze]

Dennis,
Junior people do make mistakes, but the problem is that they keep making the same mistake. Somedays it is like dealing with a 5 year old. You have to keep reminding them. I really like it when they ask what is the big deal. I believe that it is partial to blame the generation because kids are not being taught to respect their elders like we were.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott (Ret)]

No, no, no.

There is nothing more wrong with this generation, than was wrong with our own. In fact, I'd say they are bit smarter.

Coasties do not come pre-packaged. They are made on-the-job. It irritates me to hear Chiefs grouse about having to remind a junior member proper customs and courtesies. THAT IS YOUR JOB! As long as they are getting the same response from all of us, they will not repeat their mistakes often. But, I wonder if they are getting the same response.

[DCC Mitchell Penneau]

I agree with Jon, it is the generation.

[BMCM Joe Wright]

On the bit of sounding a little sarcastic.....do any of you have E5's and E6's. If you do, where are they? Dennis, I agree, it is our job as Chiefs to correct anything that is not up to par. But that does not only mean to correct the issue on the spot, it means we need to address the issue with the members immediate supervisor and then HOLD THEM ALL ACCOUNTABLE. If they continue to do it - that is our fault....we are not holding them accountable. We cannot just sit back and say "I tried, it must be the generation".

IT IS NOT THE GENERATION......I think that is an excuse for their actions. I do believe their are great differences between ages, but everyone joins the Coast Guard to do a good job.....lets help them do that.

Joe Wright

[BMCS Dennis Endicott (Ret)]

"Hold them all accountable..."

Good point. I agree.

[MKCS Jon Menze]

Dennis and Joe,
I do agree that it is our job. There is also a big difference between our generation and their's. It has nothing to to with how smart they are. It has to do with willingness and general respect. For the most part, I see most junior people give the proper gretting. The problem to me is counceling the same people over and over again about doing so. Is this or isn't it a problem?
This, I amn sure, is not a new problem but on that has come more to light the higher we go. Again, It is our job with out a dout.

[OSC Mike Sodemann]

I don’t believe it’s the generation. I recently had the opportunity to visit TRACEN Cape May and observe recruit training. I have to admit I was impressed with the quality of people we are getting. They are definitely smarter; many recruits are comming in with degrees. I saw highly motivated, very respectful, young Coasties ready to get to work. We have to ask ourselves what’s happening to these people between Cape May and 6 months at our unit, and what are we doing about it….

On a side note I highly recommend anyone to invest a few days and visit the TRACEN for yourself. We all have an open invitation from MCPO Jim O’Neill and the Command to visit and see what they’re doing. I was hesitant myself because I had “too much to do” but it was worth it, I left motivated. Go see for yourself

[PACS Steve Carleton]

If differences in generation have anything to do with this issue, then I as a Gen-Xer would be stereotyped by others here and not be where I am today. That said, my position is that it is an issue of respect for authority. Plain and Simple!

My father is a retired USAF E7 and proper respect for authority was part of my life lessons. I take the same approach with my 8 year old. I insist that he refer to all adults as Mr. or Mrs. unless they, the adult tell him he can refer to them in a first name basis. When that happens, he will call them Mr. Joe or Ms. Jane, but the respect is there. The cycle starts at home, I have no doubt that if my son enters the military, he will have proper respect for authority.

When I am in the office with my E6 & E5, I call them by their first names, they return the favor by calling me by my first name "Chief" But, when we are outside the office in an official capacity, teaching/responding, whatever, I refer to them as Petty Officer. The same way I earned the right to be called Chief, they earned the right to be called Petty Officer. This works very well for me and them.

In addition, when I am in a liberty status at home in my neighborhood with a mix of Coast Guardsmen of varying ranks E5 to O5, we are on a first name basis, but when we are in uniform on base we all address each other in the proper manner. It is an issue of boundaries, knowing what they are and when they need to be enforced or slackened.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott (Ret)]

"In addition, when I am in a liberty status at home in my neighborhood with a mix of Coast Guardsmen of varying ranks E5 to O5, we are on a first name basis,"

That is a problem.

You should never be on a first-name basis with a non-Chief. It is detrimental to good order and discipline and probably contributes the forementioned issues. I've found that practice common in the M-field, and among some support units. It's rare on a ship or small boat station.

Look at it this way, even if those Coasties are disciplined enough to call you "Chief" at work when they are calling you by your first name during liberty, they are always thinking of you as "Steve." And, if that's true, they are also thinking of you as a peer.

I'd also suggest that you tolerate and encourage the practice because you want to be friends with those non-Chiefs. That is not your role. You have a separate mess facility, berthing area, and name (Chief) because you require a professional distance. You cannot do your job properly without it. And, you cannot turn it on and off.

If I can figure out how, I'm going to make this its own thread. I think you've hit on a topic that is going to generate a lot of conversation. Good job.

[MKC Art Bailly (Ret)]

It’s a shocker but I have to agree with Dennis on this one. He pretty much tells it like it is. I heard the same kind of this when I was a junior member. But I also heard not only the chief speak up I heard the junior enlisted guy’s speak up first. I do believe it is getting worse. I see the problem being more with our E-5’s and E-6’s. Where has their leaderships gone? Well I believe it is in part to our rate grabbers or those taking advantage of the advancement opportunities these days. I have competed in service wide exam’s for ever pay grade and these days we have young petty officers that have less then a year in because they came into boot camp as an E-3 went to Yorktown or Petaluma to a guarantied A-school and advanced a few moths later to a E-4. I’ve said it before and If we continue this type of advancement we the senior people will have to deal with these type of problems. But I guess that could be another topic. I feel everyone coming out of boot camp should go to a ship for a year before they go to a school just for the bonus and then hate there job. Yes some already know what they want to do when they come in but I still think they should work in the field first to see what the rates really do. All Officers go to a ship for their first tour.

[BMC Ken Gouge]

Jon (hi) and Mitch,
Blaming it on the generation may be fine but it's not the kids. It's the PC turn that the service has taken in its attempt to assimilate these kids to our lifestyle.
I have had the rare honor of attending 2 boot camps in my career. The first was Army in the early '84, then Cape May in '92. There was a major difference between those 2 (not just because of the different service aspect), and I'm sure none of us would recognize Cape May's boot camp now if we went through it again. Any current or recent CC's please feel free to correct me on that.
There is no fear! That's the difference. Recall reporting to your first unit? Did you call the first petty officer you saw "sir"? Were you sweating whether or not your uniform was good enough and properly put together? I could go on but you get my drift.
We need boot camp to give these guys the tools they need to succeed, not show up saying "oh, I was sick that day" or "no, we didn't get to shoot guns"... Give the CC's some lattitude and remind the kids that when they signed up they lost a good portion of the Bill of Rights in doing so.
Lastly, don't send them to shore units. I don't think I'm the first to have that idea, so I guess I'm finished .

Ken

[OSC Thomas Jackson]

I've heard a lot about the "new generation". This problem has been going on since I have been in. I want to say it all started when they decided to have the "Kinder, Friendlier, do you need a Hug? boot camp". When I was stationed in Seattle in the 80's, we had an SA doing extra duty because he told a Chief to "F... Off". I don't know about you, but I would have probably let him meet my fist. (yeah yeah, I know that's not good). When I got out of boot camp, I was scared to talk to a Chief unless he/she talked to me first. Now I am not saying there aren't squared away kids coming out of Boot Camp, but maybe we need to let the CC's put the fear of God into them again. :eek: I'm done......

[CWO Roland Ashby (BMCS)]

Very interesting topic. I remember going through boot camp in 91. When I would see a Chief coming I would turn and go the other direction. I was more afraid of the Cheif than the LT!

Through the past 14 years I lost a lot of my military bearing. Part of this came from working at small boat stations and the rest because I was a reservist. In the civilan world I work with a lot of CEOs and was on a first name basis. I even call the president of my company "Bob" and not "Mr. XXX". It got so bad that I was actually concerned about going to school at one of the training centers as a BM2 and completely screwing up my military bearing.

Since becoming a Chief I am seeing things in a much different light. I find myself correcting the Junior Enlisted. Not because I am offended if someone calls me Roland, but instead I don't want them to do it with other Chiefs or Officers. I hope to lead by example and help other E-5 and E-6s from losing thier military bearing.

[EMC Travis S. Parks]

This "the younger generation" mess has got to stop. Paternalism is not professionalism. I have three E-5s working for me who are two to five years older than I am. So I suppose many of you are including a lot of Chiefs in any blanket statements about "the younger generation".

[BMCS Dennis Endicott (Ret)]

Good point, Travis.

[MKCS Jon Menze]

Good point Travis. No. I do not believe that all the younger people coming in are that way but I do believe it has a lot to do with the way people are brought up. Plus those that do rise up through the rates at a quickly, generally do so because they follow the rules that are set forth.

Dennis, To an extent I do agree with you because even when I came it there was always the 1 or 2 that thought they made the biggest mistake of their life by joining. They did everything they could to show they distaste for the service. The part I don't agree with is the fact, and I could be wrong, when I came up through the ranks it usually only took 1 or 2 trips to the Mess to straighten up and try to do the right thing, now days it seems like you see the same person weekly. I actually had to counsel someone for blowing by the CO without greeting him and the person told me that he doesn't like talking to other so why does he need to greet the CO, Officers or Chiefs in passing them. I was floored when he asked me why he needed to greet them. In the end the only thing you can do is keep on trucking and hope to get through to them.

[OSC Thomas Jackson]

I am going to start by quoting Jon "because even when I came it there was always the 1 or 2 that thought they made the biggest mistake of their life by joining. They did everything they could to show they distaste for the service."
Here is my question, do they still screen the recruits as they are going through boot camp? When I was in boot camp, the CC gathered us around him during the second week and said if there is anyone here who does not want to be in the Coast Guard, speak now and we will process you out. After this, if anyone continued to screw up, they were placed in X-RAY company and went through hell until they straightend out, and if that did not work, they were processed out of the guard. Are undesirable people being processed through simply to meet the needs of filling billets?

[MKCS Jon Menze]

Tom,
I don't remember them asking if we wanted to be there or not. I don't think that they really get that way until they get to their first unit. The ones that thought they would be driving boats and stuff like that right off the bat. They did not realize that you start out at the bottom and work your way up.

Jon

[OSC Thomas Jackson]

It's been awhile since I've been in boot camp (1980 - Tracen Alameda Echo 133). Things have probably changed..... I have seen people get disgruntled because they don't feel they should have to do the menial labor to get where they want to go. I've had a couple of subordinates who seemed to have been spoiled as children and didn't want to put up with the "B.S.". Most individuals can be reached if you're willing to work with them, but there are others that just never get it.... My whole point about boot camp stems from things I have seen from kids reporting to their first unit and have automatically started off on the wrong foot. A lot of it is due to lack of discipline, as I said earlier in this thread, there was a SN who was doing extra duty for telling a Chief to "f... off". I have heard of some of the changes made in boot camp since I have been in, and I think that maybe it has been made a little easier (less stressful) on the recruits. The reason for adding stress to boot camp is to see how the individual reacts in stressful situations. Who knows what the invidual may have to face (i.e. ship fires, sinking, etc). If the individual cannot handle stress, how can he/she be counted on to help in emergency situations. Ok, I think I got off subject a little so I'll stop now.....

[BMCS Dennis Endicott (Ret)]

I just returned from TRACEN Cape May. I can tell you from personal experience that those recruits are being trained just as intently as was I.

None of them graduate with bad attitudes. On the average 10% of a company will be discharged prior to graduation. Another 20-25% will get reverted (rephased).

By the time they reach their 8th week, they look and behave like Coasties. If they lose that inclination, it is our fault.

Face up to it, and take forac.

[OSC Thomas Jackson]

I'm glad to hear that the screening process is still going on. As I stated earlier, it's been awhile since I went through Boot Camp. Also, I never stated that the problem is to be placed entirely on Boot Camp. I have dealt with several different problems while acting as a supervisor and have handled each one. For example: I had a SNTC who was being trained by a TC3. The SN felt that the TC3 should be showing him respect, because he was older than the TC3. A prior service individual came onboard my ship, when he signed up for the Coast Guard, they guaranteed him that he would come in as an ET3, instead they processed him through as a TC (a rating that he did not want). Needless to say, he had a chip on his shoulder. Another prior service TC2 decided that he should not have to do the same menial labor as the other Second Class Petty Officers because, he was older than most of them, he had been in the service longer than them and therefore had done his time. They ended up giving this individual a Letter of Commendation. A TC3's mom was divorced and she was having problems with her new boy friend. The stress of worrying about his mom affected his work. Another TC2 got into an argument with a TC3 over a float coat. He stated that the TC3 had stolen it, and when the TC3 denied it, the TC2 started screaming at him and calling him a liar, they almost came to blows. Did I mention that this all occured aboard the same ship? I have also had to deal with a member who was suicidal, and members who were caught doing drugs. I took action on all of these instances.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

If there is a generation problem it's with ours. We aren't holding our juniors to the standards our seniors held us to. There are now and always have been people that are going to slip thru the cracks of TRACEN. The big problem becomes when that attitude or problem isn't addressed at their first unit, and they are allowed to advance and tranfer somewhere else where they effect others. For the people who aren't getting results from previous reprimands.....take it to the next level, then the next. If you have someone who is unwilling or unable to adhere to CG standards, discharge them. I have personally put my hands around a non-rate or two, and never to hug them. I always get my point across and achieve my desired result.

[OSC Thomas Jackson]

But Stu, it's a kinder friendlier Coast Guard now, maybe a bone crushing hug.... I've thrown a couple around myself.... but only as a last resort.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Sorry Tom, I'm not buying it. It's only kinder and friendlier if WE allow it to be. Regardless of our attitudes the UCMJ is pretty much unchanged over the last couple of hundred years. What has changed is OUR willingness to enforce those standards. Over the years, I have had people senior to me tell me to take it down a notch, try and be more understanding or tolerant. I always tell them to do what they see as just, and I will do the same. I haven't changed the way I handle problems with those junior to me. Wisdom and Tact have allowed me to ignore the problems I have with those senior to me.