Coxswain Quals

[BMC Chris Gempp]

I have a question for everyone and hopefully you can help. I have a BM1 here, Prior QM, who has been on board for almost a year and a half and still cannot certify as a coxswain on the UTB/RB-S. I know there are ways to document the problems to start a trail, my question is do you tell the guy he is going to Mast, get transferred( not to transfer a problem person, but to open the billet here for someone who can do the job) or what??

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Have you already initiated a reduction in rate? Or a lateral to another rate?

[BMC Chris Gempp]

Senior,
Not yet, we are looking at all of the options and I told my CO that NJP could very well be the final option. We are trying to avoid that drastic of an outcome but if it comes to that we will do it.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

If a BM1 can't qualify coxswain, you need to initiate a reduction in rate. Transferring this member is not the right thing to do for the member or the CG. If they are going to be a BM, they need to meet the requirements for that paygrade...or choose another rate. You should not send them to another unit.

As far as NJP goes...I'm not sure what you would put him/her on report for?

[BMCS Shawn Vredenburg]

The day someone reports aboard my station they are given a memo from me stating their qualification deadlines. While we (me, the XO, or Ops) can informally extend those deadlines, they are put on paper the day they get here. They are also in my standing orders.

If someone goes over their deadlines, they go on a modified duty rotation...meaning they get even less time off.

If I had a BM2 or above who went significantly over their deadline I would put them on performance probation for reduction, or encourage them to lateral to a different rate (like OS).

Like Dean said, NJP isn't a factor here. Just because someone doesn't have what it takes to be a coxswain doesn't mean they have violated the UCMJ.

[BMC Ken Gouge]

I thing what Shawn and Deanne are saying is that you can reduce someone in rate without NJP. It would be as a result of sub-standard performance (ie. performance probation)

Since the member is a BM1 and it is required to have this competence as a BM1, there may be a way around the 6-month timeline placed on performance probation.

If he/she was made aware of the timeline for certification, and then given the same opportunities as everyone else to certify (including a more arduous training schedule after exceeding their deadline) you might be able to use that documentation as a substitute.

The drawback is that the person is still at the unit, but it can open up that BM1 billet.

Hope this helps.

[MKC Art Bailly (ret)]

What I would do with the member depends on their attitude and effort put into getting qualified.
If the member is putting forth the effort of a 1st class and is just not up for the job I would recommend another rate like OS. But if the 1st class is putting little effort into getting qualified then extra duty days, mast/performance probation would be appropriate. If the 1st class is going the extra mile to get qualified, like staying late, coming in on his own time, seeking help from every one he can, I would have some concerns for him and be more then willing to go that extra 1 ½ miles for him/her. But if the member chooses to be lazy and not put forth the effort then neither will I. My god he’s a first class and should be held accountable for acting like one. If it’s poor performance, why is everyone afraid to hurt the feelings of a POOR performer? If knowing that they might be reduced in rate or maybe going to mast doesn’t light a fire then what will. What does it say to the crew when you don’t hold someone accountable for their lack of action. I know that this type of situation can be a real moral buster for the rest of the crew.
Sorry but I have little tolerance for people not willing to do what is required of them to do. Everyone can do what ever they want. It’s their choice and they must reap the rewards of their decisions.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Perfomance Probation is the way to go. Once you youve started that, every thing else falls into place. For this there is not enough documentation. Meaning, document everything you have done and are going to do. I hope his evals show his lack of desire or inability to qualify. Questions to ask your self; are my other BM's qualifying with-in unit requirements? Have I given him fair and honest Trainers? Does he poccess the skill-sets required of a BM1 or PO1? When you get the letter done, call the detailer and let him know.

Your first peice of documentation can not be the letter notifying him he is a candidate for RIR.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I have to go with the fact the any BM1 CAN qualify as a coxswain. If someone hasn't after a year and a half, it's because they don't want to. Reduce them or have them pick another rate. You're not doing them, your unit, or the CG, any favors by keeping them around in that billet. And transferring them ISN'T an option. If they can't do the job at your unit, they can't do the job. Allowing them to transfer, is like admitting that your training program sucks, and if the person had better trainers, they could get qualified. Think back to your own career. Were you always blessed enough to have people who motivated you to succeed, or did you sometimes have to motivate them to train you ? If the person lacks some fundamental ability that they can't learn, then they can't be a BM1. Reducing them in rate in not punishment.....you're holding them accountable to the CG standard. If you don't have enough money in your account, the bank stops making payments on the checks that you're writing. If this person, as a BM1, can't qualify as a coxswain, they're overdrawn.

[BMC John Phillips III]

I would look at it from a perspective of, if the person was a non-rate or third, what would your actions be? The First Class should not be shown any leniency, if anything he/she should be held to a higher standard.

If it is an issue of lack of ability to successfully crossover due to rate merger, perhaps changing rate is gonna be your best bet, but still a bit of an easy way out if you ask me.

[OSCS Jimmy D. Belcher]

As a legacy QM prior to the merger I thought there was to be two types of BMs underway. Operations and Deck. Is transferring him/her to an underway cutter where they may have already proven themselves an option. Maybe a better option if this person is not a trouble maker and just can't handle the split second decisions of the BM rate. As an OS I am in a position which I like which is doing SAR. I am basically locked into the SAR world until I turn in my letter.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I would say it shouldn't be an option. The vast majority of BM1 billets are ashore. If you can't qualify as coxswain, you can't fill one of those billets. Why allow him/her to transfer to a place where they feel comfortable, and continue to be advancement eligible ? As BMs, if you can't qualify as a coxswain, you can't make BM1. If you can't certify OinC, you can't make BMCS. Thems da rulz. This person should have realized/researched that prior to choosing to become a BM. Why allow them to occupy a BM1 slot that some BM2 who has met all of the requirements wants to advance into. Some of life's lesson are harder to learn.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

I agree with Stu, transfer is not an option. If the CG does, we end up with another 17 years PO1 as in another thread. Reduction in rate is the only option. And as JPIII said, he should be held to a higher satnding. I hope he has not been recommended for advancement.

[BMCS Shawn Vredenburg]

Burt: I don;t know if I would say reduction is the ONLY way to go. Maybe a lateral to OS??

[BMCS MICHAEL PERKINS]

I hope that you have been documenting all of this since the problem was recognized. You need to start with performance probation, then the reduction for incompetence. Bottom line is that if he can't qualify then he needs to go back to BM2. I would not let him transfer. How did he get advanced without a Coxn qual in the first place?

[BMCS Burt Ford]

I thought about that Shawn. I not sure I would take a lateral or reduction. Lateral means back to e4 doesn't it? I believe the lateral that was used for the rank-for-rank of the QM rate is gone. Anyone know?

[BMCS Shawn Vredenburg]

I think (repeat, I think) you can lateral straight over as long as they complete all of the EOCT's, but I'm not sure. I just had a reserve PS1 lateral to reserve MST1, but he may have been able to do that because he's a reserve.

It may be worth looking into!

[BMCS Don Zoll]

I think (repeat, I think) you can lateral straight over as long as they complete all of the EOCT's, but I'm not sure. I just had a reserve PS1 lateral to reserve MST1, but he may have been able to do that because he's a reserve.

It may be worth looking into!

As far as I know Reserves are allowed to lateral rank for rank if all prereqs are met ie..PBQs, EOCTs, etc... Unless the rules have recently changed regarding Active duty they must go back to E-4 and start over. I would check and see if the QM to OS merger would still work as you'd think they would have put in a safe guard for situations like this.
Oh, wait a minute I was trying to make sense. I've gotta stop doin that!

[MSTC Michael Schmidtke]

Being a MST and seeing this happen, and not happen...in order to lateral without loosing rank, the rate has to be on the open rate list! And all of the other stuff needs to be met (all PQS for that paygrade, etc.) I've seen a MK2 lateral over to MST2, but he had every qual that would require this since he did back to back MSO tours. Plus at the time the MST rate was open. I don't know, is the OS rate an open rate right now? This is something that the rating manager would know....EPM used to send out a msg every year telling you what rates are open and what rates are closed.

The other piece of the puzzle is, will the powers that be (detailer and rating manager) let him go, especially if your in a rate that is open and want to go to a rate that is also open (ie BMs I think, since I haven't seen the update open rate list).

[BMC Chris Gempp]

Thank you all for your assistance. the probation slipped my mind for one reason or another. The two members were held acountable on their marks, not recomended, Other page 7's to follow. Thanks again

[OSCS Jimmy D. Belcher]

Mike the merger only happened a little over 2 years ago (June 2003) which goes with the time line of being there a little over 1 and a half. If he was a QM1 at the time and did not request to go OS then he was automatically made a BM1.

[BMC Wayne Kidd]

I would say it shouldn't be an option. The vast majority of BM1 billets are ashore. If you can't qualify as coxswain, you can't fill one of those billets. Why allow him/her to transfer to a place where they feel comfortable, and continue to be advancement eligible ? As BMs, if you can't qualify as a coxswain, you can't make BM1. If you can't certify OinC, you can't make BMCS. Thems da rulz. This person should have realized/researched that prior to choosing to become a BM. Why allow them to occupy a BM1 slot that some BM2 who has met all of the requirements wants to advance into. Some of life's lesson are harder to learn.

Well let me give you one possible bit of perspective from the BM1s side. I am a legacy QM, never had an issue with BMs just not what I wanted to be. Along comes JRR and BAM! my entire professional career path has been invalidated since I am ineligible to make E-8 (right now I am on my 7th cutter with one shore tour as an instructor). In fact I am not nor do I intend to ever be Coxswain qualified so I am seeking out billets where I am comfortable and giving up advancement opportunities doing so. The detailer tried to send me to a small boat station and I flat out refused to go and it is hard to argue with a priority 1 transfer (I helped myself out by ensuring I had leverage). So why would I be a BM at all you might ask? Well I do not want to be a BM, I want to be a QM but they are dead. So then why did you not go OS you might ask? Well the Coast Guard denied my application for OS when I submitted my resume and told me I HAD to become a BM.

So I can see several things in the last couple years that may have led up to this BM1 not having success and those things I can understand fully. Of course it is quite possible he is one of the QM1s that could never finish a tour on a 110' because he couldn't qualify OOD. I don't know and I read this entire thread and there was never enough information to know so I would say all those judgements were a bit presumptive and without a basis in knowledge of the full situation.

[BMCS Shawn Vredenburg]

The JRR set many senior QM's up to get screwed. Legacy senior BM's walked out unscathed (with a couple more senior level u/w billets...which could be good or bad depending on your perspective.) Junior BM's now have to learn that skivvy waiving and ceremonial stuff, and junior QMs had to learn the (rest of) the BM stuff.

Many senior QMs got screwed. It's just a fact of life, and there was nothing the JRR board could have done about it. Some QM's were able to get to small boat stations relatively quickly, and most of them have done well. Some senior QMs were thrown into Sta XPO positions, to varying degrees of success (big props to Blake Kilbourne who was the first ex-QM to get a Sta OIC job).

But there just were not enough positions to give to all of the senior QM's to get them this experience. A friend of mine was forced to go MS Warrant (something he was loathe to do) because he wasn't able to get one of these positions.

But the bottom line is now this particular person is a BM1. Like it or not, that's what he is. And if he can't perform the expected duties of a BM1 (whether that means qualifying coxn or DWO, processing a PR, completing a survey, or anything else), then proceedings should be initiated to reduce him.

What would you do on your ships with a QM1 who couldn't navigate??

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I'm sorry, I didn't see any QMs getting screwed over this deal. I saw the opposite. The second to the last QMCS advancement made more E-8s than they had billets for. And I don't know want happened with Wayne, but I know QMs that they begged to go OS. There were QMs who could have never hoped to make E-8 or E-9 and those lists were cleared for the first couple of runs. QMs who went BM were allowed to compete for E-8 without having to certify OinC for the first two years as well. Senior BMs now had to compete with Senior QMs who had more sea points and less certifications. I'm not crying for any QMs. Again....the JRR shouldn't have been a surprize to anybody. The service deemed the rate obsolete. You have to work with what you're given. And let's not re-write history either. Back in the day there were cutters that had either QMCSs or BMCMs as their OinC. We have had QMs who stepped up and took the helm long ago. I sailed with QMs who certified coxswain long before the JRR required it.
Wayne has it right.....he isn't certifing as coxswain because he doesn't want to. He isn't seeking those ashore billets because he doesn't want them and he doesn't have to. The BM1 in question no longer has that luxury. He is in a billet that he is not willing to fill, and should be reduced in rate.

[Bosn Robert Wilson (BMC)]

QMs who went BM were allowed to compete for E-8 without having to certify OinC for the first two years as well.

Senior,
Not to let facts get in the way, but here is part of ALCOAST 429/03:

2. FORMER QMS HOLDING ONLY THE OFFICER IN CHARGE AFLOAT
CERTIFICATION MAY PARTICIPATE IN THE MAY 2004 AND MAY 2005
SERVICEWIDE EXAMS. THIS WILL ALLEVIATE THE DISADVANTAGE FORMER QMS FACE IN QUALIFYING TO TAKE THE BM SERVICEWIDE EXAM.

So as we can see you had to have at least one certification. What you may be thinking about was the May 03 SWE was just a MRN SWE and there was no requirement for the OINC certifications since the merger had not become official yet (July 03).

As you know I have spent most of my career at sea thinking that is what a QM did. Never did I expect to be told I would need a coxswain qualification, heck I even turned down 2 stations as a QM because I didn't want to be a coxswain. Man if I could only go back in time on that decision.

[BMC Wayne Kidd]

I'm sorry, I didn't see any QMs getting screwed over this deal. I saw the opposite. The second to the last QMCS advancement made more E-8s than they had billets for. And I don't know want happened with Wayne, but I know QMs that they begged to go OS. There were QMs who could have never hoped to make E-8 or E-9 and those lists were cleared for the first couple of runs. QMs who went BM were allowed to compete for E-8 without having to certify OinC for the first two years as well. Senior BMs now had to compete with Senior QMs who had more sea points and less certifications. I'm not crying for any QMs. Again....the JRR shouldn't have been a surprize to anybody. The service deemed the rate obsolete. You have to work with what you're given. And let's not re-write history either. Back in the day there were cutters that had either QMCSs or BMCMs as their OinC. We have had QMs who stepped up and took the helm long ago. I sailed with QMs who certified coxswain long before the JRR required it.
Wayne has it right.....he isn't certifing as coxswain because he doesn't want to. He isn't seeking those ashore billets because he doesn't want them and he doesn't have to. The BM1 in question no longer has that luxury. He is in a billet that he is not willing to fill, and should be reduced in rate.

Well Stuart what happened with me as best as I could find out is since I had no ashore group time at a SAR desk or anything similar they felt I was unqualified to be an OS. Period. Now I did not go to ground and start a guerilla campaign to fight that decision as hard as I could have but thats the story. If I had my time in I would simply retire and leave the organization to carry on with its chosen path, however I only have 17 years so I had to find myself in a place where I can get a measure of happiness and remain a productive member of the Coast Guard and luckily I had the foresight to set myself up for that, I don't think everyone did. I know for a fact some of my old friends didn't.

Bottom line, I am welcomed on a cutter, I am a damn good DWO with 5 letters on 3 different platform types. I have learned many of the things I need so that I remain productive as a BMC vice a QMC. I am rigger, deck sup and safety on my current ship, things I had never done before. I am in the middle of a 20 week online course for "Fundamentals of Protective Coatings for Industrial Structures" to further my knowledge. All that said, I have no and have never had interest in small boats and it is where I have decided to draw the line. I could qualify Cox'n with little trouble on the ship's boats but I have a great shop of BMs who live and breath it and I give them all the support and help they can get from me to ensure they qualify and maintain proficiency. But I am doing them somewhat of an injustice because their BMC does not have 15 years driving small boats. Mind you he does have a dozen years driving big ones and when I get them on the bridge they learn more from me there than anyone else on board.

That BM1 may have a similar history, I don't know and that is what I was saying. If it is pure inability to learn then likely he should be reduced after lesser measures to let him know what the end result will be. If he is like me and a tour or two short of retirement and was a competent QM1 who would like to finish his career at sea and was unable to (not everyone had leverage like I did) I would say it might be reasonable to send him to a billet he would be comfortable AND productive in until he can gracefully step away. I am just too caught up in the shadows I am having to live in to accept it is so simple a black and white issue without knowing more. The Coast Guard sure isn't required to make the remaining time in my and many other former QMs careers comfortable but neither is it required to force folks into positions where they will perform at a sub-par level or even fail.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

OK Brian, let's not let the facts get in the way.....
the 2003 SWE was for advancement to BMCS. No rating questions, only MRN. Advantage QMs. The 2004 SWE allowed former QMs who were not fully certified to compete while preventing BMs from doing the same. Advantage QMs.
Where is this disadvantage former Qm faced ? Are you willing to admit that you are somehow genetically inferior to BMs? QMs have be eligible to screen for OinC positions for as long as I have been in the CG. QMs have successfully screened and filled those billets since I have been in the CG. Senior Chief QMs filled the same billets occupied by Master Chief BMs. To say the former QMs were at some disadvantage based on their career in insulting to the QMs that did what so many BMs still refuse to do. Not to insult you, just sticking with the facts, you're on the Larry Alley end of this arguement.

Wayne, regardless of your feelings on this issue, it is black and white. This person was in that billet for a year and a half. I don't care what kind of job they did prior to that. A year and a half, failing to accomplish what some E-4s do in less than six months. We're not talking NASA here. I would question the competency and commitment of any BM1 who couldn't qualify in 18 months. You qualified as DWO......I agree with you....I have no doubt that you could qualify as a coxswain if you wanted to. I also have no doubt this person could have qualified if he had wanted to. Now we're back to black and white. A year and a half and still hasn't qualified. If they had wanted to transfer they should have done something sooner. If they wanted to lateral they should have done something sooner. This person is a PO1. If they understand that little about their own options and career, they shouldn't remain a PO1. Reduce they.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

I'm going to side with the former QMs on at least part of this.

BMs start learning how to be command cadre at the E-4 level when they first begin to qualify as coxswain. They get opportunities to be XPOs at the E-6 level and can begin prepping for that all-important OIC board shortly thereafter.

All of the QMs that I knew (back in the day) that held XPO positions were E-8s. They didn't have an opportunity to become an OIC until they were E-9s. We all know that BMs start those jobs as E-7s.

They did start at a disadvantage. And, many of them did get screwed. If for no other reason then they did not foresee or want to change rates. Those that had too much time invested, really didn't have any other choice other than to get into a rating that they didn't like. We are all feeling the brunt of that situation.

And, I will argue that driving small boats at a SAR station is not suited to everyone. It's not easy, especially if you don't enjoy it.

So, let's give those legacy QMs a break. They are making the best out of a bad situation.

[Bosn Robert Wilson (BMC)]

OK Brian, let's not let the facts get in the way.....
the 2003 SWE was for advancement to BMCS. No rating questions, only MRN. Advantage QMs. The 2004 SWE allowed former QMs who were not fully certified to compete while preventing BMs from doing the same. Advantage QMs.
Where is this disadvantage former Qm faced ? Are you willing to admit that you are somehow genetically inferior to BMs? QMs have be eligible to screen for OinC positions for as long as I have been in the CG. QMs have successfully screened and filled those billets since I have been in the CG. Senior Chief QMs filled the same billets occupied by Master Chief BMs. To say the former QMs were at some disadvantage based on their career in insulting to the QMs that did what so many BMs still refuse to do. Not to insult you, just sticking with the facts, you're on the Larry Alley end of this arguement

Senior,
I wasn't going to debate this with you until you hit below the belt with that last comment. Where in my post did I say QM's were at a disadvantage? You made the comment that QM's didn't have to have any OINC certifications for two years, I pointed out that was not true. The ALCOAST stated QM's were at a disadvantage, not me. Obviously this whole situation bothers you from the BM side of the house, try to look at it from the other side. How many QM's based their career path on the chance that maybe, just maybe, they would need an ashore certification to advance, I am guessing very few if any. I tried to get a station upon departing Yorktown but was told I was needed on a ship..........to fill an E8 position. So good enough to be sent to do the job, just not good enough to get paid for it.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

First, who the hell is Larry Alley?

Robert--always debate with him. He won't learn anything otherwise.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Dennis,
SOME BMs did all those things that you mentioned. Others did not. SOME QMs did all those things too. I'm not saying anything is easy........I'm just saying that it's not that hard. And Larry Alley is someone who always unsuccessfully tried to point out how superior BMs were to QMs.

Brian, don't listen to Dennis, I'm not going to learn anyway. But you introduced that section of the ALCOAST so you have to take the hit for it. I could still swear I knew of people taking the 2004 SWE with no certifications. I do know people who certified ashore having never been at that type of unit. And doing an XPO tour isn't a requirement for E-7s to sit for the board. I know of people who are certified ashore and afloat and still were sent to an XPO billet because the detailer thought it would be better for them. They got screwed. And just curious.......when have you known me to ever look at something from someone else's point of view ? What bothers me is that some people are still willing to make concessions for people years after the fact. Do you honestly think that some BM1 should be able to claim that they CAN'T certify coxswain because they were a QM. I could accept won't, but I ain't buying can't. Some of the best people I ever sailed with were QMs. Some of the worst were BMs. I can't sit by while some people say that someone was disadvantaged because they were a QM. That's something I can't and won't do.

[Bosn Robert Wilson (BMC)]

Senior,
For the BMCS SWE for May 04 and 05 you were supposed to have at least the Afloat certification. As far as the coxswain not being able to/willing to, I will agree that a year and a half is way to long, ex-QM or not. I have never claimed ex-QM's were at a disadvantage, simply that they got a raw deal with the merger, especially the more senior ones. Personally I thought instead of just QM's having 1 certification they should have let it be one or the other for BM's as well. To me that would have leveled the playing field. The one great thing behind all of this is I did get that E8 job. While learning how to be an XPO has meant mind-numbing work hours, I am fortunate to be serving with the best crew I have ever sailed with, and that's no exaggeration. Of course I did already know the oparea a little, haha, so that helped get the U/W part taken care of quickly, once I learned how and which buttons to push.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Mybe this should be for another thread but I am ging to chime in on the BM/QM merger. That merger came as no surprise to anyone and everyone had years to plan for it. I read the whole merger in the CPO academy and no where did it waiv quailifications for either rate for any SWE. I busted my butt as a BM1 to certify OINC ashore and was rewarded with an OINC billet. But when the CG upgraded it to a BMC, I was extended. The detailers would not allow me to leave in order to get a DWO Letter so I could compete FOR BMCS. Then we waive another year and those of us with ashore quals cant compete. Come on, I had 2 pts sea time what threat was I.

I believe this BM1 should be reduced as with ANY BM1 , BM2 or BM3 that cant or wont qualify coxswain. Long Break! I would also offer this. When I get my ship, if I get a BMC that will not qualify coxswain, whether cant or wont, he too should be reduced regardless of his prior background.

[BMC Chris Gempp]

The member that I started this has been put on performance probation and the ball is rolling quickly. He is feeling the heat to get certified and now the pressure is on him. We'll see where decides to take it.

[BMCS Nick Pupo]

Burt, I agree that if a person is a BM1 or BM2 and cant/wont qualify as a boat coxswain then the option should be pushed to have them reduced. But how can you justify reducing somebody in rate if its not a EPQ? What would you use as your leverage?

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Nick...It is an EPQ. 5.B.01 & 6.B.01 both have this coxswain requirement within them.

The BOAT Manual is the best guidance for someone who has the inability to qualify as coxswain. Part 5, C-13 states..."If a BM (E-5 or above) is unable to certify as coxswain, within a reasonable amount of time, the unit commander should provide additional opportunities for training and experience and document the results. If the member still does not show progress, the process for reduction in rate for incompetency or change in rating as outlined in the Personnel Manual should be initiated. In no case should a BM (E-4 or above), unable to qualify, be recommended for advancement."

[BMCS Nick Pupo]

Dean, I agree 100% with both what you quoted and enforce what the manual says. No where does it say that a BM3 HAS to be a boat coxswain. However to read more into it also states that a BM3 can advance to BM2 without being a Coxswain all they need to do is qualify as a QMOW(lets not get into what is easier, thats not the discussion here).
To advance to E-6 a member has to certify on a boat listed in the BOATS Manual. That gives options, to cutter BM's to advance. Everybody is asking how this person advanced to E-6 without being a coxswain. Maybe thats how, or maybe he advanced to E-6 pre-merger. If he did it post-merger then I ask this. If attached to a small boat station, and he has not yet certified on a standard boat. Would anybody recommend this person for advancement to Chief?
Further more, remove this requirement from the EPQ's and make qualifying as a Boat Coxswain a requirement for E-5 in the PersMan. If we do that it removes the ability of commands to "defer" that EPQ. So if the member whats to advance, he has to submit a waiver to the RFMC, which I then would hope the RFMC would disapprove.

[BMC Chris Gempp]

He was not recomended on this last set of Eval's due to the reason of him not being certified.

[MKC Art Bailly (ret)]

I’m not a BM but I believe it use to be required to be qualified as a cox’n to be a E-5. I remember when I was at a small boat station as a third an BM that could get qualified was almost reduced in rate but instead they set him to a ant team where it was easier for him to get qualified. But then that’s probably another thread (Giving someone the easy way out, instead of holding them accountable). I think the requirement change several years ago for prerequisite to become an E-5. For I don’t remember the reasoning but do remember that I thought it was silly then and that problems like this would happen. I’m sure Stu or Dean can enlighten us on when and what the reasoning was behind the newest rate merger. I think the change happen right before the rate merger. I wonder which rates are next.
Regardless he must be held to the standards that are in place today.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Nick, i would use exactly what Deane quoted. Any BM chief can be placed in an XPO position afloat or ashore. If a command does not require the senior BM, weahter BMC/BM1 or lower to qualify on ALL boats attached, how does that chief look to the crew? How would you hold your BM1 accountable if you are not holding the BMC accountable? If you reduce a BM1 for not qualiying you must be willing to do the same to the BMC. So, I would use the PERSMAN and unit training matrix or ORGMAN.

[BMCS Nick Pupo]

Burt, I didnt go back thru all the post to see Deane's comments about any Chief can be an XPO ashore or afloat. But that's an incorrect statement. To be assigned as an XPO afloat you have to have an U/W OOD letter. That requirement is not in place until somebody wants to advance to BMCS.
As far as you other statement, maybe its me but you lost me.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Nick, sorry I was talking about some other remarks Deane said about leverage. XPO ashore and afloat were my remarks. I got an XPO afloat job without having a previous DWO letter 3 years ago. I know we are giving XPO ashore jobs to BMs without coxswain letters. I was just saying, needs of the service could put any un-qualified person at a position that requires certain certs. And, if my XPO came aboard, not small boat qualified and would or could not, performance probation would happen and could lead to RFC weather BM1 or BMC.

[BMC Ken Gouge]

I thought the requirement for XPO afloat was to have passed the DWO within 1 year of executing orders.

[BMCS Scott Hooley]

I believe that is one of the requirements as well. But one also has to have an underway OOD letter in their past to qualify for XPO afloat. Granted, as with anything else, there are probably exceptions made. But I have seen a couple of great ashore XPOs denied afloat XPO positions due to the fact they lacked the U/W OOD letter.

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

The requirement is to HAVE passed the DWO initial or renewal within 1 year PRIOR to executing orders. Rule of thumb that a good Master Chief gave me at PCO/PXO school was to renew the DWO each fall. That way you will always be eligible for assignment when one of those really good OIC/XPO jobs opens up due to the person ordered in failing to meet that qual. I have a good friend that went the CWO route and had his initial "Boot CWO" orders changed and was able to go directly to a 175 as XO when the previously ordered XO failed to pass his DWO.

[BMC Greg A Robertson]

It seems like 1 1/2 years is quite a long time , have these options been discussed with the BM1? Well over a year seems way too long. My question is has anyone taken this person under their wing to mentor and see what the problem is, is he/she not capable or are they just unwilling? It seems to me by asking the question that you still see something in this person and are still hoping for some type of improvement. You may have thought and or tried everything I have mentioned. I just thought I'd share my thoughts. I to have had a couple of problem "children" to work with, some have worked out some haven't.

[BMC Chris Gempp]

Greg,
That person has finally certified and has only had one mishap, yes it's true, just one, took an accom ladder thru the port side window of my UTB. Anyways, now I have another one who is getting ready to be put on performance probation for BTM.