Physical Fitness Standards

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Below is an email that I received from CAPT Robert (OCS) asking all CO/OINC's to ensure their members are meeting the Physical Fitness Standards.
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I need your help in ensuring compliance with the COMDT's Physical Fitness Standards…

5 out of 12 personnel reporting to NMLBS for the 22 Aug MLB Basic Course were unable to meet the physical fitness requirements for resident training. 1 of the 5 ( BM3 from xxxxx was within 10% of the standards and allowed to remain in the course…as of 24 Aug, BM3 xxxxxsuccessfully met the requirements. The following members were returned to their units.

BM3
BM2
BM3
BM2

BM3 from Station XXXXXXXXXX…a replacement for one of the above...also failed, but was within the 10%.

Those member's who failed to meet the Fitness Standards should have their certification immediately rescinded IAW with the BOAT Manual.

This is very discouraging given our recent message to the field addressing this issue and the responsibility of the unit CO/OinC (Attached Below). This is a waste of valuable training dollars and limited quotas!

Our boat crews are operating in very physically demanding environments…they need to be in good physical condition to ensure mission accomplishment w/ minimal risk. Our unit CO/OinCs need to ensure assigned personnel meet the COMDT's Physical Fitness Standards.

Thank you for your help in this matter.
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So, why are people showing up to schools without being able to meet the standard?

[BMC Mark C. Lewis]

I have sent three members to that school. Two where sent back. After talking to all three I found out that the school was not testing people IAW policy. The school was requiring persons to have their elbow above their knees when they came up during sit ups and that they had to return to a flat position. The policy states that the elbows will touch the knee and then return so that both shoulder blades are touching the deck. I called and talked to the XPO and he stated that they where working on it from their end. My unit was one that got one sent back from this last class. The BM3 is one of the most fit persons I have met. Both of the persons that got sent back passed during the RFO within six weeks. This BM3 did 40 push up in 30 seconds and ran in 10:29 while at school. During the RFO he did 60 push ups, 40 sit ups, and ran 10:21 that was this past Apr. The other person that got sent back was a BM2 and he did the following during the RFO 31 push ups, 40 sit ups, and ran 11:40.

If there are that many people getting sent back than it might be a problem with the school?

[BMCS Nick Pupo]

I have to say, from what I've read, Im pretty lucky. I have yet to have anybody sent back from any school for failure of the PT requirements, or for that matter, any other reason.
Mark, you state "If there are that many people getting sent back than it might be a problem with the school?", you're correct, but. The schools give more than one chance to pass the test. So, if the person fails because they bring their elbows to their knees. Dont you think, after they have failed the first time they could follow simple directions and bring them past their knees the second?
I remember a couple years back when this issue was brought up the first time. There was talk, if a member was sent back because of failure to complete the PT successfully, the cost of the travel was taken out of the unit budget. Wonder how that would go over now?

[BMC Mark C. Lewis]

The NMLBS does not give a second chase. As far as the elbow to the knee it should be done right and you would think with the way the school acts that they would be doing it right. We wonder sometimes why students come back from schools with strange information this is why (I do not know much about NMLBS so I am not saying them in particular).

My Group CO got an email from the D1 Chief of O wanting to know why my BM3 was sent back. I made sure the CO knew how irritated I was with this situation. My unit needs their training. My unit is brand new to the MLB. With this problem I am having does not give me a warm and fuzzy about the school. It makes me wonder if I should send anyone else out to this school. My BM3 is feeling pretty dejected, especially since if is as fit as he is. He is also my Wellness person and has been to the school.

[BMCS Bill Gheen]

The schools give more than one chance to pass the test. So, if the person fails because they bring their elbows to their knees. Dont you think, after they have failed the first time they could follow simple directions and bring them past their knees the second?

Regardless of how many chances you get to incorrectly pass something, doesn’t exactly make sense to me, whether the instruction is simple or not. Where does it say past the knees? A standard is just what it implies. Shoot why not make it back of head past the knees? It’s too bad that the human factor is such a key element in this. Can’t really get rid of that though. I am glad we have an emphasis on our crew health. Do we have the right emphasis coupled with the right information is my question.

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

Mark said: I called and talked to the XPO and he stated that they where working on it from their end.
Jim says: "What in the heck is there to "work on" at their end?" To the knees, past the knees. People can either meet the standard or they can't. I appreciate the fact that they are actually testing and sending those home that don't meet the standard, but they should not have the standard under a magnifying glass and measure each millimeter of each excersize.
I went to the CPO academy a few months prior to the new bi-annual weigh in and that stuff. We had some enormous Chiefs in our class. I could tell by the look on MCPOCG Welch's face when he came for a visit that there was going to be fallout. Messages all say that member must meet weight standards and we had some that blew them away. Not just by a few pounds either. I could see keeping those that had a possibility of making their weight by graduation, but the ones that obviously had not read a message and whose commands sent them anyway should probobly be advised that this is for real. BTW. Just for the record; I had to lose a few pounds and did it the first week.

[CWO Chris Sparkman (BMC)]

“Those member's who failed to meet the Fitness Standards should have their certification immediately rescinded IAW with the BOAT Manual"
Maybe I need some help on this one. I am just not seeing it. The physical fitness requirement is an annual requirement to maintain certification. I have a member currently at the School who failed the run by 30 secs. He will be retested this Monday. If he passes, he will stay, fail, and he comes home? I will not pull his certification if he comes home. Should I take it in the pocket book? Well maybe. :o It would save a lot of money and time. But that member is still in the field, performing their duties. Does it solve the problem? I did not test him before he left. Last minute call and we had to get him there immediately. When I asked him if he could pass, his response was "yes Chief, just went through RFO". If I would have tested him and he passed, he would have driven 3 hours to the school and then had to retake his PT when he arrived. Well in this scenario, he has met the annual requirement twice in two months. Pass again at the school and now he's met it 3 times. :confused:

We recently went through RFO two months ago, and the member passed his PT. PT is an annual requirement. What is someone to do? Randomly pick a day and say "Go, right now, run, sit, push", would all of them be able to do it? Should they be able to do it? Anytime, anywhere, any place? What if I ask a Coxn a NAVRUL question and he/she misses it. Do I pull their letter? I do not think so. You have 5 years on your DWO/NAVRUL. Mandatory PT, it is only mandatory if you do not meet the weight standard.

We do “mandatory” PT every Mon, Wed, Fri. Everyone participates; they participate on their own. The crew, as I enjoy the time to work out and keep in shape. But I’ll be the first to admit, there are days where I doubt I could bend over to tie my shoes, let alone put me head between my knees, touch my toes, do the hooky poky and turn myself around. :D Bottom line is, we spend months training our folks to get to Crew, Coxn, Eng, BO, BTM. positions. I think I could work with them on their PT, and still allow them to run the same. Unless I'm missing someone, Physical Fitness Standards only have to be done by boat crew positions and BO, BTM. Everyone else, just meet the weight standard. No Physical Fitness standards need be met. Don't meet your weight, now you are put on the program and monitored. Given a certain amount of time, meet you weight and your back in the game.

I’m not seeing the benefit in pulling their letter just because they missed their sit-up’s by 5, or their run by 30 secs. I cannot afford to do that. Now, it becomes repetitive, and there is not effort put forth by the member, well that’s another story. With a little mentoring and motivation, in a short amount of time the member could be back in the game. Maybe I am way out in left field. I have been known to play there before. ;) Just my 3 cents worth (had an extra penny)

[BMCS Nick Pupo]

Bill ask, "Where does it say past the knees?", to answer that question, its in the BOAT's Manual.

Mark, now that you've heard the answer from the Lifeboat School, what are you gonna do. You showed them that they were enforcing an incorrect standard. Are they going to give you two other billets for the classes? Since they sent two of your guys back, I would believe thats the right thing to do.
Also, before they were sent home did the school call you or better yet did the two guys that got sent home call you? If not, why?
I still have a hard time believing that people were sent home for doing situps wrong. Why didnt the school correct the members and make them do that portion over again. As an example, if they incorrectly measured a mile and a half, and a high number of people failed. Wouldn't it make sense that they allow the members to re-do the run with the correct distance.

Deane, I dont know the answer to your last question. But, why is 10% of the standard mentioned? Either a member fails or passes the PT standard. Do any OIC's qualify a member if they fail but are within 10% of the standard?

[CWO Chris Sparkman (BMC)]

Senior..
Do any OIC's qualify a member if they fail but are within 10% of the standard?

My answer would be no. To become intially certified, you must meet the standard. Now, two months later, you go to school and fall short, this is where I like the 10%, (never heard of it but...) Kind of like not meeting your weight standard. You don't lose all your quals/certs for your rate, you get a little motivation and a time frame.

Weight standards and Physical Fitness standards, two different things, but one allows you to change and hopefully suceed, the other, well, follow policy and your lose your cert. Period. Do the right thing and we can allow our members to suceed instead of feeling dejected.
r/
Chris

[BMCS Bill Gheen]

Nick,

Perhaps you can help me out where it more specifically it says “Past the Knees” (as there is quit a bit to the BOAT Manual).

Here is what I do know:

BOAT Manual VOL 1
Part 5 – Boat Crew Training
Chapter 3 – Qualification
Page 5-26

One Minute Sit Ups

Step 1 - Lie on back, bend knees, place heels flat on floor about 18 inches away from buttocks, and keep fingers loosely on side of head. Hands may not come off of side of head for sit-up to count. Note: Feet may be anchored

Step 2 - In the up position, elbows will touch the knees, then return so that both shoulder blades are touching the deck.

Step 3 - The buttocks should never leave the deck. Note: Any resting should be done in the up position.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

You know why this is happening? Because we only enforce physical fitness standards for qualifications. If we did it as a matter of routine (mandatory workouts as discussed in another thread), we wouldn't be concerned about a few inches of reach on a situp.

[BMCS Nick Pupo]

Bill, my bad. I not only misread your post but also misquoted the BOATS manual, thanks for pointing that out.
Chirs, I say no also.
Now I ask this, how many of the people who supervise the PT at these schools would actually pass it?

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Dennis - I agree with your statement about routine.

Nick - Great point about those that are supervising the PT at the schools. That would also go for RFO evaluators, STAN Teams, etc. If you're going to talk-the-talk, you better be able to walk-the-walk.

[BMC Ken Gouge]

Then I give a big BZ to Group Buffalo. When I was there, the Group CO, XO and OPS (at a minimum) would all test with us. It was a big goal to beat them in the run, but few would.

[BMC Mark C. Lewis]

Senior
Both called and talked to my XPO (both the school and the members). The BM2 that was sent back was very vague and his story did not jive with the school. I took the school's word at face value and did not listen to my BM2. After the BM3 came back and I talked to the other person that went and passed PT I apologized to the BM2.

[BMCS Nick Pupo]

Here's the thing. As we all know the Lifeboat School falls under Boat Forces. So, the first place they will go to get direction on the PT requirements should be and is the BOATS Manual. That said, I also know from talking to the three of my people who went and had to do the PT. The school goes over the proper way to do the Situps and reads the requirements right out of the book. With that, when conducting the test they also have observers who count. So Mark, my question to you is this. Why did the member fail, for doing the situps incorrectly, not doing enough, or both?

If the member falls out of the 10% criteria, they cannot re-try, if they fall within the 10% they can. Oh by the way where does this fantom 10% come from? Either a member passes or they dont if they dont, give them a second chance if they fail the second time then home they go.

Another suggestion, if a member fails PT or has a discipline issue and gets sent back. The funding for that student should come out of the unit's funds.

Oh and on a side note, my comment about the PT being given by people who may or may not pass the requirements themselves. It was ment to include every "C" school that requires PT, not the Lifeboat school specific. For as we all know, the Lifeboat School is the center for excellence and anybody there can pass the PT on any given day. ;)

[BMC Mark C. Lewis]

Senior
The three BMs that I have sent (Nov, May, and Aug) all said the same thing about the sit-ups, if it was just one of my BMs I would go with the school but when all three of my BMs say the same thing. I go with my guys.

The impression I got from the XPO of the school was that there appeared to be problems in the past prior to the XPO and new CO getting there.

I know my people and all three passed the PT before going to school. What happened at school all I can go on is what my guys and the school says and right now the school has no credibility with me.

I have another BM3 going to the basic coxswain course in Sep. I will just have to wait and see what happen. He will be test on his PT but I know he will do well. He has passes every PT test so far. However I am leery of sending anyone out there at this point.

[BMCS Nick Pupo]

Mark, dont be too harsh to judge the school. Think about this, take one of the billets yourself and see what they are doing first hand. Prior to me getting to Montauk, I had the opportunity to attend the Basic Class, as I was never certified on the 47'. I found the instructors professional and willing to work with me and my old 44' habits.

Also, tell Will Crowley that neither the Pats nor the BC Eagles got a cold chance in hell this year.

[DCCS Todd Holcomb]

Now I ask this, how many of the people who supervise the PT at these schools would actually pass it?

Hello Shipmates, I haven't posted in a while but here I am.
I know people don't want to hear "when I was...." but When I was in the Army and we had a PT test the only people who could administer the test and score you were the SGTs and above in your platoon who had been to the physical fitness school, and could pass the test with flying colors. Much the same as all the instructors at the CPOA (as far as getting the school). It didn't matter if it took all day if you had 30 people and only 2 qualified instructors, then you did it 2 @ a time. Right or wrong it worked and gave continuity.

Can the CG afford to send people to school to make sure they are "properly" supervising PT? HMMMMMM
I do know that with the new mandatory standards we need to do something or we will keep having the same problem.

At TACLET we had a few guys that couldn't pass the standards, which were slightly different than the fleet, but after some hard work and either the OIC or AOIC supervising everyone testing on our teams the standards were met, correctly.

It seems to me if we can afford to send all the instructors at the CPOA, we should be able to send some from the operational side, that's where it count's, what good does it do if all our Chiefs get the proper instruction from qualified health and fitness guru's if our BTM's and BO's can't get the same level of commitment from the CG?
My .02,
Todd :D

[BMC Mark C. Lewis]

Senior
I will tell him. He is doing great here.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I think that it's great that someone is actually enforcing a standard.
That being said, I wish the would enforce it correctly.
And we should re-visit the physical fitness standards as a whole. We need to make them more practical. I've been in for twenty-four years and have never had to run a mile and a half to do anything. I've never had to do one sit-up to do my job or complete a mission.
I think that you should be able to do the pull ups. You may need to pull yourself back on the boat one day. You should be able to pull someone else on board. And you should be able to do some sort of physical activity for 10 minutes without stopping.
Running is one of the worst things that you can do to your body. Look at any of the avid runners from ten, or fifteen years ago, and see what kind of medical issues they are facing today.
The program that we have in place doesn't really evaluate physical fitness. It does assist many of us in achieving disablity pay later on in life.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Well lets look at it this way. I have no boats and I do not do LE. Therefore there is no requirement for me to complete any of it. But we do. I do an annual assesment because we fly. WE are not air crew just passengers. and when my old &^% can get out of the helo, carrying more gear than my PO2's are, then we need to do it. Plus it will help when they do get to another unit. With that said, our standards are only for folks overweight or operational. There are many ISC requiring standards which is good. But a standard should be CG wide, not singling out the OPS guys.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

And you're right, it should be service wide. People should be ready to be sent into the field to respond to anything that the CG does. When disasters happen, we need physically fit warm bodies to assist the qualified people in getting the job done. What's the use in presenting that physically trim military appearance if you can't help pull a person on board your vessel ?

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Right on Senior!