BM3's in todays Coast Guard

[BMC Chris Gempp]

:confused: I have a questions I have been pondering for a while and I am looking for some help so here it is. At my Station we dont do alot of painting and I see that alot of my BM3's dont know how to paint. They will tape everything off instead of cutting in. Seems like a waste of resources etc. Do any of you see this as a problem perhaps with the current way our up and coming BM3's are trained on how to do a job properly? Is it a fault as I as their supervisor for not training them or just assuming that a simple job as painting, they would know?
Hopefully you understand what I am trying to get at.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Painting is a skill, something that continually gets better with practice. It is something that is learned, therefore, someone needs to teach them. The longer I stay alive, the more people amaze me. I find it hard to believe that the first time someone picks up a brush is after they make BM3, but it does happen. I've run across people in their twenties who have never painted, cut grass, done laundry, or driven a car. I was talking to a non-rate that I had on the buoy tender who had commented about some of the great inovations we had in the AtoN community. He especially liked the "steel brooms" that we had to clean the buoy decks with. He was referring to frickin' snow shovels. Amazing. Chris, I feel your pain, but for all of the practical expereince that they lack, they could still kick our butts at Nintendo. A skill that many have honed.

[BMC Chris Gempp]

Stu,
Thanks for seeing it as I do. It is scary about the "steel broom". I do have and have seen some outstanding BM3's that are coxswains, but when it comes to simple "rating" tasks, they can't seem to do them right or do them the hard way.
I agree about Nintendo also. Computers in general too. I am not that literate and they are.

[MSTCS Jerald P. Motyka]

When I came in the Guard, I was 30. I KNEW how to friggin' paint!! :mad:

And then BM3/2 Chris Schramm got hold of me. :(

My GOD did he have to do some yelling to get me to break my old habits. He was patient and explained about "surface preparation" and "protective coats" and "cutting in" and "feathering" and why you shouldn't mix up five gallons of Mare Island for a quick 2"x2" touch-up on a cleat... :eek:

I really did learn how to paint after I came in - and as a non-rate.

It is one of those "useless" skills that a person should pick up that will end up being "useful" the rest of our lives. And if you are on a cutter, it may well save your life! When he read me the riot act for painting over some rust on the deck, I really did learn something about TOMORROW and the fact that I may be getting over today, but when one of my shipmates fell through a rotted deck, I would have to live with knowing that it was my actions that hurt/killed the kid... it really did sink in!

BM2 Schramm is now a CWO on the Dallas... and I hope he knows that he got at least one old dog to learn a new trick... or two... :o

[BMC John Phillips III]

It is one of those "useless" skills that a person should pick up that will end up being "useful" the rest of our lives. And if you are on a cutter, it may well save your life! When he read me the riot act for painting over some rust on the deck, I really did learn something about TOMORROW and the fact that I may be getting over today, but when one of my shipmates fell through a rotted deck, I would have to live with knowing that it was my actions that hurt/killed the kid... it really did sink in!


Jerald, please don't take this as a personal attack, I just have to say it. Of all the posts I read here, you continually blow my mind more than anyone else! In fact you are pretty much the only one that does. Anyway, I pride myself on being an excellent painter, anyone that has ever worked for or with me knows that is true. I hardly see painting as a "useless skill". I find your remarks as mostly silly. I mean falling through the deck is that actually an example someone used to get you to do the job right? I guess I am old school in that I take pride in my work and I don't like doing a paint job I did 2 months ago again 2 months later. There also used to be this sense of pride when someone from another unit came by and complemented the boat (and you knew it was true).

To answer your question Chris, I can't swear on this but I would be willing to bet the Color and Coatings manual gets little or no attention at BM A school. As a SN I had to read the book and become familiar with it. I might be a freak because I found it to be one of the more interesting CMNDTINST's. I also paid attention when the leading SN (not even a BM3) was showing me the ins and outs of surface preparation. I will admit though, some people can just figure things out, like painting, a lot easier than others.

[BMC Ken Gouge]

I am in the last days of a 92 day drydock availability in Curtis Bay. I have seen first hand what new style BM3's don't know about painting (and then trying to lead 17 SN at it). You should have seen the look on their faces when I took a black grease pencil to their freshly prepped bulkhead marking all the spots that still needed some work. They didnt know why you couldn't cut-in with a foam brush. They were using a Die Grinder to try and grind away pitted rust, the list goes on.

Not one of them had a problem with the BMC stealing their paint brush, sander, needlegun or whatever to show them the proper way to do it. But now they know, and can lead more effectively.

As far as cutting in, with the Ameron PSX (poly-siloxane) paint system recommended in the C & C manual tape doesn't work worth a damn. I've tried both masking and painters tape, and it leeches its way under both. You still need to tape to get straight lines, but you have to cut-in AFTER you pull the tape. If anyone has any lessons learned on this please pass them along.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

Why can't you use a foam brush to cut in?

[BMC Chris Gempp]

Dennis,
We used the PSX on the POINT SAL/STURGEON and the paint eats the foam up faster then you know what. You still have to use a bristle.
Perhaps BM A school needs to go over proper painting techniques with the students.
It would be nice in the long term.
I am glad to see that everyone shares the same frustration that I do.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

good to know.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Ahhhh, the internet generation. If it is not on Playstation, the computer or the PDa todays younger BM's can't do it. I agree, in the last couple of years(not here, no boat) I have spent numorous hours with young BMs teaching thme the finer art of PPP. While in the Yards in St. Louis, I think I held PPP training everyday for a week. Chirs, my deckies had so mauch tape on the Barge shack, 3M sent me a christmas card with money! To get them to stop using tape, we painted first so they could see what to cut in. It seemed to help. Then the tape was used only sparingly.

[BMC Chris Gempp]

Burt,
I did the same thing. My deckies had a cheesy painting in our Bos'n Hole taped off.....So I showed them how to cut in and they said "thats why your the Chief", ahh o so true but hopefully they learned how easy it is to cut in. I guess I'll have to keep a watchfull eye on them and monitor progress

[BMC John Phillips III]

You still need to tape to get straight lines, but you have to cut-in AFTER you pull the tape. If anyone has any lessons learned on this please pass them along.

Well you can use the tape, pull it back and wipe the leaks with a thinner rag rather than cutting in again or you can use a method I was taught by a crusty old Bos'n, called "using the wet edge" only works with a sash brush and steady hand. Works well near welds, a lot better than tape. Seems like it's taking a long time but compared to taping off and wiping runs, it's about the same, it's just more time spent painting vice taping and wiping, so maybe that's a good thing.

[BMC Ken Gouge]

We'll probably have to go with the tape and wipe method. My Cutter is over 40 years old, and it would be hard to chose WHICH weld to follow, much less one that is consistently straight enough to look good...

I guess the thing that ends up making it more difficult is that I was taught to paint the white first (bulkheads, bulwharks...), then the decks. That method with PSX means your gray is the one bleeding up onto the white, which then needs to be cut in with a "wet-edge". Only problem with that is gravity.

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

If you apply your tape, say on white paint, then use more white and paint the edge of the tape that is going to be your line, it will seal the tape and not allow bleading of your color under the tape. Whatever your base coat is, use that again to seal your tape. Believe it or not, this is a trick that I learned from my wife, the faux painter, and it works well.

[BMC Greg Klynman]

Painting, like splicing is becoming a lost art in the BM rate. With small boats going to a non-painted hull, and many cutters having civilians paint in the yards we will not get the skill in ownership many of the past BM's had. I know that the Coast Guard wants the majority of BM's to come from A school vice striking, but with striking I believe many of our hands on traditions are past on better. Many of the instructors at BM A are 2nd's and 3rd's and I personnally don't believe that they can take the time to pass on our traditons like learning from a one on one supervisor, student level that you can get from striking.

[BMC Kerry Wagoner]

It is not only the BM3's but the BM2's and the BM1's that lack the needed experience and knowledge (some, not all). I had a BM1 stop by my station the other day, he just got to his new job (desk job) and wanted to know if there might be a spot open at my station. he told me that he really wanted to go to sea but he would take my station if he could get it. When i asked him why he did not put any cutters on his e-resume, he replied that he filled up his resume with cutters. He went on to say that he needed sea time to advance. When I asked him how much time he had, he replied "zero". Now, if this BM1 has no sea time (working on cutters, P.P.P. ships, etc...) how can we expect a brand new BM3 right out of "A" school to have the knowledge and experience?

Good or bad........it is a sign of the times. When I was coming up, it was the norm to see a BM1 with 20 years, a BM2 with at least 10 and the BM3 had several units under his belt and knowledge to boot. Now, the BM1 has 4 to 6 years max, the BM2 may have 2 or 3 years and the BM3....well.

It is up to the Chief to develop the junior enlisted (and the officers) to become effective and productive leaders and Boatswains Mates. If we the Chief does not, then who can?

[BMC Greg Klynman]

Kerry,
I agree with you. I spend the last 30-45 minutes of my day reviewing pracs, quals and any career development topics my personnel want to cover. What I do see from the E6's on down in any rate is their obession to advance over learning and becoming proficient in their prospective rates and duties. I have not recommended personnel for advancement because I felt they did not have the knowledge and maturity for the next paygrade. When they are counseled on the topic they seem offended that they can't advance.
I think many of our newer members need to see this as making our service better by getting comfortable in all aspects of their responsibilites before moving up the ladder.
I also believe that with some of the rates slowing down and implementing SWE's this will help correct the situation.

[PAC Darrell Wilson (Ret)]

Hey Greg, if your the same Klynman on the Hickory that went thru CCTI with me, hello shipmate. I know I am a PA chiming in on a BM thread but I just wanted you all to know this is not limited to just the BM's. We have a PA who just made E7 with a little over 6 years in. I dont care what rate it is, I think thats too fast to make Chief. Just how much knowledge do you have with so little time? I think the Coast Guard is doing a real disservice to its self by waving tests. I remember Chiefs being old and crusty and knowing everything. Now some of them look like they just started shaving.

[BMC John Phillips III]

10 year BMC chiming in here (take off the first 2 that I was going MST and I made it in 8) So do I get credit for those first 2 years or not? Either way I would match my knowledge and leadership skills to any 20 year BMC out there. I am potentially going to be an OINC next year this time. So I don't know if your blanket statement was very well thought out Darrell.

Do we have a problem with 1sts 2nds and 3rds that are inexperienced? Yes, is it as severe as most people make it out to be? I don't think so. I believe people raise their level of performance to whatever you require of them. So as Chiefs if you have inexperience out there, you might have to go out and get your hands dirty showing them the way. Of course it's always nice to get that BM2 and yes you would hope a BM1 would know just about everything they need to know to perform their job. If they don't though, it's our job to get them there. We can't just keep sitting back complaining about why they aren't there. That doesn't do anyone any good.

Everything we do has been done before, it's not rocket science and having 20 years in doesn't give anyone some special "know all do all powers". Come back and ask me if I still believe that in 20 years and I may not feel the same way, but by then I will likely be a CWO4 or LT and won't be allowed to post here. I refuse to sit in one pay grade any longer than I have to. Geographical stability or liking billets is a prerogative, but it's also contradictory to adapting to the military lifestyle.

It seems that the above spare change may total more than 2 cents ;) but that's me.

[PAC Darrell Wilson (Ret)]

John, I am sticking to what I wrote cause thats how I feel. You made Chief with 10 years in the Coast Guard. Thats a big difference from 6. And you want to talk about a blanket statement not very well thought out. You said "I would match my knowledge and leadership skills to any 20 year BMC out there." You honestly think a 20 year BMC might not know a little more than you? I am not being confrontational, I really want to know if you think that.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Knowledge does not come entirely from the books you read, courses you study or classes you attend. It comes from all of the above in addition to, and most importantly, your experiences in the field. Did I know everything as a 12 year BMC? No but I thought I did. Whether you are a bm3 with 1 year, BMC with 10 or a BMC with 20 more is learned with experience. John when you get that first OINC job, your outlook will change. You will look to that 20 year BMC and ask some question that there is no answer to in the books. His/her experience will not be written in the study guide, manuals or leadership books, it will just be what he has seen done on another day. From painting, to performance probation that OINC has to draft or hurricane avoidance, more expereince is needed, required and essential to our success. How many BMs still retain our core skill sets required to pilot and navigate? Are our new BMs really proficient? Well I would say not since, at the recent PACAREA OINC review board these skill sets killed several candidates. Can we still navigate with Captain tunred off? ECPINS not funtioning? GPS off? Has todays BM1 with 5 years in ever plotted with LORAN "C"? Millions of years after the ice age we are still learning from the Dinosaurs!

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Darrell, I'll put JP3 up against lots of 20+ year BMCs I know. I've watched him train the trainers. We've replaced alot of those old crusty people who knew everything with people who are just old and crusty. And who was it that advanced the E-7 in six years ? That person didn't advance themselves. I recommended two of the members of this board who advanced to Chief with 10 or less years. I stand by those decisions. And I would put them up against those retirement eligible E-7s anyday.

[PAC Darrell Wilson (Ret)]

Senior, I just thought his statement smacked of arrogance. Its one thing to be confident, arrogance is another. I agree with Burt wholeheartedly, some things can only be learned thru time and trial and error. Maybe I read John's post the wrong way and he wasn’t trying to be arrogant, that’s the downside to these boards, its hard to read emotions. I am glad you know John and feel comfortable with him. I take you at your word that he is everything he says he is. The Coast Guard lives its life around boats so we need competent boat operators.

[BMC John Phillips III]

Darrell, you may have interpretted it as arrogance, which is understandable as you said, you don't know me and you can't see or hear how I am saying that. So no harm no foul.

If you want to read my stance on arrogance you can, there is a thread here http://cgchiefs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=75

I am appreciate the fact that you stand by your original statement as I am sure you will appreciate me returning the favor. Just keep in mind that I think very highly of myself, but not so highly that I think I am the only fast advancer that has a clue. I see advancing fast in our time (which is here and now) as a good thing for motivated individuals who are willing to step up to the plate. In my original post I did recognize that there were fast advancers out there that are behind the curve, I also recognized that
1. perhaps they should not have been recommended.
2. if they are close we as chiefs need to get them all the way there.
and 3. that people tend to perform to whatever level you require them to.
Remember there is good stress and bad stress. Being stressed about not knowing how to do your job is good when you are willing to learn. Bad stress is not knowing how to do your job and hoping noone ever finds out.

[PAC Darrell Wilson (Ret)]

John, I agree with your 1, 2 and 3 points.

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

JP3, Have you been initiated? Seems you could learn a little there. Also, you may have advanced fast and that is great. Stu stands behind your abilities and that is great as well. However, how many units have you been at? Have they all been the same type? I.e ATON, MM ashore, afloat... Different platforms? There is a great deal of learning from experience to be had out there. How many narcotics seizures have you had? How may ATON have you constructed? How many heavy weather tows / rescues have you done? Have you ever had to deal with migrants or how about someone requesting asylum? Have you ever had a subordinate threaten suicide? Have you had to deal with DUI's, Emergency leave when deployed or drug users at your unit? It is one thing to get your pracs signed off and be a great performer at your present unit, but there is an awful lot of things that a BM can learn from that word EXPERIENCE that you cannot get out of a book. I don't doubt for a minute that you are darn good at what you do, but I do wonder how "well rounded" you can be in such a short time. Personally, I think you kind of put your foot in your mouth with your origional statement.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I gotta back my boy......JP3 has had a well rounded diverse career. There are people that will tell you that he doesn't smack of arrogance, he reeks of it. He is everything that I claim him to be. What me claims himself to be is a whole other issue. He is a hard person to PROVE wrong. And though he may not have done everything on Jim's list, and very few people are still around who have, he will rise to any occasion.
Though not all experience can be learned in a book, some of it can. Some people can learn from the mistakes of others. Some of us have to be the others. We still send Mishaps hoping people don't make the same mistakes we did. Those people advancing faster than some would like, are being recommended for it by people with more experience and authority than some of you would care to acknowledge.
Do you want to learn something about this issue. Look at the seniority list of BMC, BMCS, and BMCM. The people that the top of each of those fields made it there in near record times, with whatever experience that they had, and stayed there. This situation is by no means new. People making BMCS in under ten years, fifteen years ago ? Kinda makes JP3 look like an old salt now doesn't it ?

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

I vote to make JP3 the new "Super Moderator" when Dennis retires, since he seems to be the very best the Coast Guard has to offer. Maybe we don't need to network amoungst each other anymore, just go to JP3.
I know that this sounds terrible and it is written somewhat "tongue in cheek", but I don't like putting anyone on a pedistal so high that you can see under their skirt. Words like those posted make people wait for that opportunity to say "gotcha" when the inevitable happens rather then back ya.

[BMC John Phillips III]

Hey Jim, I just thanked you in another post for good information and now this?! ;) Well that's ok.

I will stick with my previous statement of saying I do not believe I am the exception to the rule as far as fast advancers go. I believe there are several out there just as squared away as me ;) I also feel compelled to say that I never said anything derogatory towards the 20 year BMC's out there, so sorry if I offended. As far as posting words that opens me up to a gotcha, well this is where knowing me would come in handy, because I do my job to the best of my ability and invite anyone, anyone to "getme". I am not perfect, never claimed to be, but I know there is not a job in the CG that I am not capable of mastering in a relatively short time. Again, it's not rocket science, although there are some "old guard" mentalities out there that would have you believe it is.

I am not going to list all of my accomplishments, awards, experiences, etc. I mean people already think I have a big head (right?). However, I will offer this, even though I lay claim to a large portion of the success I have had, I would attribute a great deal of it to the influences I have had. Without name dropping or fluffing any of them (wouldn't want to give you the wrong impression), I have worked for/with the most senior Bos'n in the CG (at the time), a BMCS that ended up #1 on the BMCM list, a BMCS that ended up #2 on another BMCM list, a two term CPOA pres., and a 13 year Bos'n. There were some less than stellar influences along the way but ironically most of them had a ridiculous amount of time in one paygrade.

Oh and as far as me becoming moderator, I like that idea. I have been told I am a good writer.

SSS, thanks for positive remarks and influence. I am still way better than you at chess though!

Edited to add: Yes I have been initiated. I guess I would also like to add, I hate picking up books so your theory on that one is a little off as well. I am more of an adobe acrobat reader kind of guy ;) But now you have the impression that I sit behind the computer all day :(

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I am still way better than you at chess though!
Oh Johnie, Johnie, Johnie.....you lie like a rug.
That goes back to my impression of him as opposed to his own.
And Jim, ..."tongue in cheek"...if we go to JP3 for all our answers, we'd still be networking. He would be the only person that didn't need to. And just for clarify, I never said he was always right. He doesn't talk about things that he doesn't know about and when he doesn't know something he'll tell you. When he does tell you something he's almost always right. Not Always, almost always. You can refer back to the Chess statement to see where he is still capable of making mistakes.
And we've always gotten a kick out of watching the mighty fall. We talked about that in other threads.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I would rather have a ten year BMC working with me than one who is retirement eligible. There are lots of reasons someone stays in one paygrade for so long and I can't think of one that I like. If they can't/won't use their experiences to advance their own COAST GUARD career, do you really think that they are using it to advance someone else's. Give me the guy who is willing to the minimum requirements to make rate in the minimal amount of time, any and everytime. If you want to argue about changing the minimum requirements we can do that. But I don't want to hold someone down who was met the COMDT's standards out of spite.

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

Stu, JP3, Don't get me wrong. I am not trying ot hold anyone down. I have a BM2, actually, he just transferred, that made it in 2 years. He was coxswain qualified 2 weeks before he made 3rd class. I am all for the squared away sailor getting what he can get. Hell, I made BMC in 12 years and may make Sr next year. Still got a ways to go till 20. I am a little put off by arrogance though. I think that tends to alientate people. Again, this may be a fault of text vs voice communication. I still stick by my statement that you cannot exchange "book knowledge" (whether you get it from a book or a computer) for experience. You obviously need both, but you still NEED both.
If Stu is loosing his touch at chess, I would guess it is because he is spending to much time with the old boys playing dominos. ;)

[BMC John Phillips III]

Jim, a little bit from the "about me book" then I think we can get this thread back on topic. I didn't make BMC from being a book/computer memorizer. The SWE I made BMC on, my test ranked 37 places lower than I ended up on the list. So I moved up based on experience points (sea time, marks, tig, tis, awards). As far as me coming off arogant, I am not gonna say it doesn't happen, but I will definately say it wasn't my intention to do so here (in this forum).

I am glad to hear you were fortunate to get that highly motivated BM2. I am also glad to hear you wouldn't try to hold anyone back based on lack of experience. Sometimes, and especially nowadays, you have to give your people the benefit of the doubt, trusting they will be capable of performing at the next higher level. I think when you extend that trust, more times than not they will meet those expectations and as I stated before, if they are close, it's our job to get them all the way there.

From the much smaller "humble JP3 book" I will admit my Chess comments to BMCS SSS, were in gest. He beat me 4 out of every 5 times we played, but I still have those 5 games in a row I beat him to hang on to ;) Oh and Triple S, if you are reading this, I want to know what you meant by "not always right"????

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I was referring to the times when you're wrong.
Jim, I'm from the old school, so I know how to multi-task. I'm proficiency in Chess, dominos, and cards. I can go from spades, to hearts, to cribbage, without skipping a beat. And when there's not competition around, there's always solitare.
I'm amazed by some of the things that our BM youth haven't already done in their lives, but I still don't think that they're that different from us when we first came in. I had to learn how to wear shoes and fiddle with 'lecticity, but I still had to re-learn alot of other things the CG way. Like my stance in the seniority/juniority thread, I think the the biggest changes are in our leadership. We as leaders aren't as involved with our people as our leaders were with us. Generally speaking. We seem to give more credit to our people than we were given. It was assumed that I didn't know anything about anything until I showed the boss different. We sometimes think that things are so obvious that everyone else understands them, and they don't. We are also programmed to treat people differently than we were treated. Now, I'm not for hazing, but some of it did serve a purpose. We used to have a fear of stepping out of line. We are also more involved in documenting everything, which takes alot of our time and keeps us from being as hands on as our predecessors. They had time to take people aside for more one on one because they didn't spend hours in front of the computer approving TMT/AOPS. Marks were done on paper and things didn't get lost after spending hours writing your comments justifing the marks. We are continually asked to do more with less, and someone has to pay for it. And as bad as we think that we have it, those BM3s are going to have it worse. With all of the new technology that they are being burdened with, the BM basics are being lost. And in the long run, which one are they going to need more ?

[BMC Ken Gouge]

[QUOTE=BMC John Phillips III]Sometimes, and especially nowadays, you have to give your people the benefit of the doubt, trusting they will be capable of performing at the next higher level.QUOTE]

JP3
I agree with the above statement, but I would have to add:
encl. 1
If you are there when they pin on that first (or next) crow it is your duty as a leader to ensure they
1. understand the additional respect they should expect from those subordinate
2. what they need to do to earn and keep that respect, and
3. the change in responsibility to and expectations of their leaders.

IMHO
Ken

[BMC John Phillips III]

Ken, I totally agree with your additions. One of the leadership principles I like to share with my subordinates is that each paygrade warrants a certain amount of respect and it is up to the individual to gain or lose respect (respectively) based on their actions and leadership style.

I think most of the Chiefs here will agree that a BM3 has a lot more on their plate than most other 3rd classes. While I am for fast advancers (and I was referring to 2nd's 1st's) I think the majority of our BM3's are behind the curve. I think this stems from the bootcamp to A school deals going on now. In the past it would take a non-rate 1-2 years to make BM3. That might be a little long for some, but for the most part what you would end up with is a BM3 that is ready to make BM2 in 6 months. Whereas with the boot to A school BM3, you are getting one that needs a lot of developing and likely won't be ready to make BM2 for well over a year (if they are being marked properly).

[BMCM Gary Keen (RET)]

A little "tongue in cheek" here. Seems that this might be the same group that is complaining in another thread that the retired Chiefs don't show them enough respect. When the current BM3's are Chiefs will they have somehow just figured it out for themselves or do we (actually the current Chiefs) have some responsibility to see to it that they do know their stuff. If there are current BM3, BM2, and Bm1's out there that do not know their stuff, do I need to tell you who is responsible for allowing that to occur?
Gary