Chief Petty Officer’s Academy

[MKC Tony Balcer]

Here is something I would like to talk about and would appreciate the opinions of those that have already attended.
Why should I go? Is it really going to make that big of a difference in my career? Other than the fact that I need it to compete for E-8, what are the benefits? I have received some mixed reviews and I just want to know; what really is the return on investment?
Thanks for the time.

MKC Tony Balcer

abalcer@cgctahoma.uscg.mil

[BMC Matthew James]

Tony,

Good question. I asked myself the same thing before I went. Overall, I found the Academy to be a good experience. I was expecting an "in your face" sort of course, instead the staff is very professional and personable....it's not often you can call an MCPO by his first name in an instructional situation.

For the most part, the classes were informative. There were a couple that we could do without. The quality of the course completely depends on the personality of you classmates. A classroom full of "prisoners" can make any lecture torture.

There is a huge emphasis on teamwork at the academy. Wellness also plays huge into the course along with some community service.

I think you'll find the that the Academy is just like anything else in the CG....you will get out exactly what you put into it. Go ahead and put in your training request. I went in very skeptical (actually tried to get my orders cancelled) and ended up enjoying my time there. I didn't have "aha" moments, but I enjoyed the company of my classmates and the Mess.

Have a good weekend. MattJ

[DCCS Todd Holcomb]

Tony,

I didn't have "aha" moments, but I enjoyed the company of my classmates and the Mess.

Have a good weekend. MattJ

Tony, I most likely wouldn't have went if the "requirement thingy" for 8 wasn't applicable, but since I did I agree with Matt you get out what you put in. I had some great classmates, there were parts of the cirriculum that I didn't care for, the galley is great, you're busy most of the time but do have opportunities to check out local areas.

Would I do it again? HMMMM ---------yeah it's a must for 8, plus you can roll down the hill from the bar to your room!!!!!!! Really I would, met a lot of good people and got a few college credits to boot.

Good luck with your decision,
Todd

[MSTCS Jerald P. Motyka]

If you are having problems with the "To do, or not to do" question, have you considered one of the other service Senior Enlisted Leadership Courses? You can also go to the Navy CPO Academy or the Air Force Senior NCO Academy and meet the requirement for E-8 - AND deal with services that take leadership training seriously.

I went to the Air Force SNCOA, and had a blast. The leadership classes they teach are spot on, and the writing they teach (and require), while being VERY anal, makes you God's Gift to awards writers.

And there is PT five days a week.

Contact me off-line if you want more info about it.

BUT, now I am beginning to wonder about the CG CPOA - because even if you go to another course, you can still attend the Coastie Academy. I am wondering if I should fly an STTR for it... hmmmmm

[MKC Tony Balcer]

Thanks for the input. I guess I should have put this in my orig post. I'm slated for the OCT class, but find myself wondering why in the hell I'm doing it. Just thought I would seek some feedback before I'm off and decide that I made a mistake. No one has told me it was a complete waste of time, but when I ask them if it was worth having to make E-8. They say that’s the only reason for going.
It pisses me off that the CG holds that over our head. For some reason I can’t help but feel that if the course was worth it’s weight in salt, they wouldn’t have to sell it that way. It would sell it’s self.
I did the CCTI on the blind faith of my fellow Chief’s and I have never looked back. Actually, I have made it a point to go around and thank those that were responsible for helping me make my decision to do it. I guess that’s what brings me here.
In some ways I’m like Jerald. I want some answers. That’s one of the things I respect about him. I may not agree with him all the time, but I admire his resolve to seek the truth. If you guys tell me that it’s one of those things I just can’t understand until I do it. I’m on line with that and will march off without question. You guys have never steered me wrong before and that means a lot to me.
Jerald:
No offence. But, if I’m questioning going to the CG CPOA; I sure as hell am not going to one from another service. If I do go, I’m CG Blue and that would be the only place for me.

MKC Tony Balcer

[color=black]
(abalcer@cgctahoma.uscg.mil)

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

Good on ya Tony. I was in the first class of 64 (comined when they closed the Acadamy one). I echo the others. What YOU put into it, is what YOU will get out of it. Like booze, the more you drink, the drunker you get.
Gerald, I hope you weren't insinuating that the Coast Guard does not take leadership training seriously. That would be very disappointing.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Tony, I went and ended up have a great time. This classes themselves were average to above average. Some of the classes were plain silly. I had a great class and that was the most important part. The make-up of the class is as important as the class. You increase your network of Chief's by 30 and you get to know them very well. It is well worth the time!!

Burt

[MSTCS Jerald P. Motyka]

Jim, yes, unfortunately, I am insinuating that the Coast Guard doesn't take leadership training seriously.

If they did, they/we would have mandatory training for our junior personnel over and above the average of EIGHT hours in "A" school. Look at what the Army, Navy and Air Force have...

Oh, but we do have LAMS!! Ohhh, lets treat our junior enlisted exactly the same as civilians and junior officers! And it is completely acceptable for a Coastie to go through SIX advancements and serve well over twenty years and never have a JOT of leadership training.

Go ahead, TRY to tell me that we take it seriously. :(

Yes, things are going better in the last five years or so, but it still isn't enough. Jesus, we have to have people like Senior Chief Smith (from these forums) dig up info on how to farm out our folks to other services to get this training!! I applaud him for his efforts, but IT SHOULDN'T BE NECESSARY!!! All he should HAVE to do is help his people turn in an STTR for an IN-HOUSE school.

Or at least that is what he would have to do if the USCG took leadership training seriously.

Instead, we are provided with info and course material to set up UNIT leadership training - because they want to farm it out to the field so HQ doesn't want to have to think about.

But - out of respect for Chief Balcer's thread, perhaps we should continue this in another thread...

[YNC Josh Braarud]

After I went through LAMS, I wrote a recommendation through the D1 CMC (the beauty of being the Admiral’s YN) that LAMS should be mandatory for advancement to E-5. Then I think there should be an advanced LAMS to make E-6.

We did a LAMS roadshow on ALERT while underway, and it went very well. We pulled the personnel who signed up for it right out of their respective watch rotations. I think it benefited the boat in a big way and should be done on more cutters.

[DCCS Todd Holcomb]

Jim,
I was in Class 112 as well, the first of 64. I think I met your brother in Ft. Peirce while doing my CCTI, or am I thinking of someone else? I did have a lot running through my mind at the time.

Jerald,
I do think that the CG takes leadership training seriously but as always we are behind the curve on this as well. I know at the CPOA several of us discussed this with the present MCPOCG and the past MCPOCG's that came for discussons. "My impression" was we all had the same opinion that we (the CG) need resident leadership courses as requirements for advancement and they should be at the lower levels. These things don't fix themselves overnight and just as everything else we do, this is the same, where do we rob peter to pay paul in order to make this happen. I believe that in the future, who knows exactly when, this will come about. Until then it is our job as Chiefs to mentor, utilize LAMS, and any other tool we have to develop our junior members, and if need be "farm out" the training when possible. I too applaud Senior Chief Smith and am glad that we have such members of the mess who are willing to go the extra mile in order to ensure our junior members can get this when available, especially since we don't have it. I agree with you it shouldn't be necessary, but sometimes it is. We have to play the cards we're dealt and try to improve our hand when we can.

Back to the CPOA, Tony, I went on blind faith as well and am glad I did. Did I get something out of every lesson, No. But what I did get made it worth it. the biggest thing was another 63 Chiefs from my class (I still have my roster just in case) and the instructors that I now have added to my network. The instructors take the job very seriously and give 110 percent. Bottom line, for me at least, it's a class and I hate sitting in class but would do it again, just like CCTI!!

Todd

[MKC Tony Balcer]

Todd,

I can roger-up on what you are saying. I appreciate all the input.

Senior Chief,
If you need me to fix something all you have to do is ask. You have enough on your plate without having to edit my foul mouthed posts. That’s the way I talk so sometimes it ends up in my posts. Sorry didn’t realize this was a rated “G” site. Didn’t mean to offend. Sometimes this place is just a little to PC. IMHO.

MKC Tony Balcer
abalcer@cgctahoma.uscg.mil

[PAC Darrell Wilson (Ret)]

Well, I am not putting in for it. I have over 19 years in and I have no plans to make 8. Go ahead, look where the two PACS' are located. I'll give you a hint, both places end in "Area" Neither me nor my family have any desire to go there. I plan to retire after this last tour so I'll leave my spot for someone who is making chief.

[ITC Steven Grimes]

I attended recently and, I believe they would like to make it mandatory for E-7s, whether you are ever going to try for E-8. Leadership training for E-6 and below has gotten better and yes... Its too little too late, but they are trying. You as Chiefs have the ability to do training at your units, have you gone to the Unit Leadership Development program and seen what is ALREADY in place. The COMDTs 28 leadership competencies are listed, and resources for training. Some of the training comes from the Chiefs Academy. I'm sure those that have not attended and don't plan too already know every thing I have said, since you see no reason to go. You might accidentally learn something that will help you take better care of your people. You can start training in leadership rather then waiting for someone else to take care of it.

http://learning.uscg.mil/uldp/

[DCCS Todd Holcomb]

You can start training in leadership rather then waiting for someone else to take care of it.

http://learning.uscg.mil/uldp/


Right On, Steven. The future leaders in the CG are our junior sailors and junoir officers today. They'll be here using "our" lessons long after we're in the old sailors home :eek:!!!!!!!!
Todd

[PAC Darrell Wilson (Ret)]

Steve, I am sure everyone has their own reason for not going. I have formed my own opinoin based on some respected Chiefs that you and I both know. I dont like PC, touchy feely crap. Why dont you give us your honest opinoin about it. Did you really learn that much? Was it worth the 5 weeks? Did you learn something that you just wouldnt have learned any other place? We all worked for Chiefs that didnt go to it and they were successful.

Steve, cant agree more with you on this, "You can start training in leadership rather then waiting for someone else to take care of it." I have always been a fan of in-house training. One of my old supervisors used to do training weekly on different matters and I liked it. I will be doing the same in my new office. Each member will get the chance to conduct the training.

Jerald, I agree with you. The Coast Guard is a long way behind the curve on training the juniors. Heck, I dont need it shoved down my throat after almost 20 years. It should have been made available at the E-4, E-5 and E-6.

[OSC Lew Winningham]

Tony, I agree with you that the CPOA shouldn't be held over our heads..."It pisses me off that the CG holds that over our head. For some reason I can’t help but feel that if the course was worth it’s weight in salt, they wouldn’t have to sell it that way. It would sell it’s self." Unfortunately, a lot of units wouldn't let us attend if it were not mandatory. Like most others who've commented on this subject, I'll say it's worth the time, take the bad with the good, and you'll get out of it what you put in. And, say hello to Carrie...she's a nice lady. :)

[MKC Tony Balcer]

Lew:

Its funny you should mention commands not letting people attend. I have already had my command cancel three schools on me, one being the academy. I understand their position, the MPA PCS’d and the new one don’t get here until after this patrol. They at least wanted me down in the hole, my MK1 is good but a little green. I understand it, but if I hadn’t made the OCT class I would be screwed next year for the SWE. The CPOA was great about letting me reschedule and still being able to make my deadline for next years SWE. That was the good thing about this command, they didn’t wait until the last minute. And the CO, XO both seem to put a lot of emphasis on going. It’s like I have their support, but we have to squeeze it in around our schedule. That’s my only complaint about these MEC’s. Everything is mission-critical. Hell, it’s even difficult to schedule maintenance, let alone get people off to schools. Our COTB is out there right now, so I’m looking forward to getting his opinion when he returns. Out of seven of us on board, there are only 3 that haven’t been. But out of the 3 of us I’m the only one that’s going. The other two are going to retire and don’t see the need to go.

[BMCS Mike Ellis]

Tony,
I'll see you there. I'm in the OCT class as well. I look forward to it. I think it's going to make me miss the OIC review board though. I was on the fence for a while about which one to cancel, the class or the board. My COTM convinced me to go to the school since I'm not tour complete until 08.

Mike

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

Darrell, OK let me get this straight... If you didn't recieve formal leadership training at the E-4 to E-6 level, you don't want it "shoved down your throat" at the E-7 level? That is rediculous. Where were YOU at the E-4 to E-6 level. Before LAMS there was SPOLAM for the E-5, E-6 formal leadership training. What kind of formal training are you providing at your unit? OR do you feel that your members need to go to a school that is staffed by someone just like you that HAS been to some leadership training and is now instructing in that training!!! When was the last time you looked at the LDC website or called them and asked them for materials for leadership training at your unit? I got some great materials in a matter of days and I am on the west coast. The leadership training is out there. It is available. It only takes a leader to go get it and / or lead his crew to it. I hope this is not to touchy feely for you. The CPOA is not only about what you learn in class. I agree that there was very little there that I didn't already know, and alot of it was motivational and touchy feely. If you put your best effort into it though, you will get a great deal out of the networking, homework, activities... If you put forth the effort, you can't help but come out a better person, a better Chief, and dare I say it... A better leader :eek: .

[BMC Ralph Williams]

I will also be going in October.

see ya there.

[PAC Darrell Wilson (Ret)]

Jim, great post. I love your straight forwardness. And NO! I dont need it shoved down my throat after 20 years. I must be doing something right, I made it this far. I never had the chance to go to anything except the LAMS road show when it came through Juneau in '97. I do know about the stuff LDC has to offer and will use it when I get to my next unit. I am sure I can learn from it just like my crew will. Thanks for putting this in print, I agree that there was very little there that I didn't already know, and alot of it was motivational and touchy feely. This is what I have heard time after time. And if a CHIEF needs to go to CPOA to learn to network, then he/she didnt learn much in CCTI.

[MSTCS Jerald P. Motyka]

Darrell, you said:
"And if a CHIEF needs to go to CPOA to learn to network, then he/she didnt learn much in CCTI."

Oh, so VERY true... so very, very true!

On a related note, I just received an e-mail via the CMC network - and am shocked.

In d7 ALONE, there are 170 E-7s and above that have NOT attended the Academy or a sister-service SNCOA as of this week. This includes 16 Senior Chiefs!! I can't imagine...

[BMCS Deane Smith]

I've been reading these posts for a few days now and it's time to respond.

First...I have some pretty strong opinions of the CPO Academy and the CCTI in general. If you care (or are bored) you can read all about it in previous threads.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I attended the Air Force Senior NCO Academy, it was a great experience. I went 5 months after advancing to E-7 and 2 months after making Chief. I went because I wanted the Challenge. When I was offered the class, I asked around about it. I was told that if I had the opportunity to attend, I should attend. They said that I would not be dissappointed and they were right. I took so much away from that experience and I would expect that my AF counterparts took things away from their interactions with me and the CG.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

For those that think that the CPO Academy is just a stepping stone to E-8 or the CG is just holding it over your head, you probably should attend. You still need some work on your transition to E-7 if you think that way. If you think that you won't learn anything or you won't take anything away from your experience...You're Wrong! We should all be supporting the academy just as we support the CCTI...they should go hand-in-hand.

This is OUR Academy. Why wouldn't you want to attend?

[PAC Darrell Wilson (Ret)]

Senior, I agree 100% on the other services schools. I have heard nothing but great things about the Army and Air Force senior schools. If I planned to make E-8 or stay in much longer, I would put in for one of those in a heart beat. The MSO I am co-located at had a PO1 attend the senior airman school on Elmendorf Air Force base and it was great for him. From what I gathered it far exceeds our CPO academy.

[YNC Josh Braarud]

I put in for CPO Academy the same day the revised cut came out and I found out I was making it. One of my best mentors said it's the only school he ever went to that wasn't a waste of time. The Chief's Mess on ALERT all said it's fantastic.

I leave on Friday. I haven't been this excited since I went to YN "A" School. :D

[DCCS Todd Holcomb]

Josh, If Joey Persico is still there, tell him I said hello. He and his wife are good people, Enjoy the class.

Todd

[DCCS Todd Holcomb]

From what I gathered it far exceeds our CPO academy.
Darrell, I don't see how you can "gather " anything into any of the service schools since you haven't been. Give it a shot you will learn something there.

We had 4 Airforce E-7 and above in our class and the Airforce Liasion at the school was a CMSGT, he was in my group of 8 ,team Calhoun rocks!!!!, because he had just reported to the School.

All of the Airforce "shipmates" had been to thier own leadership schools prior and everyone one of them said "OUR" Academy was far better.

I hear great things about the Army's Seargent Major Academy, and everyone I have known that had been to another service school said it was a good experience. I have worked with the Navy a lot in the past 3 years and every ship or unit I have been to I have been asked by either the COB or the CMC how they could get seats in "OUR" school I shrugged and gave them the schools website. 70% percent of those told me, they gathered ours was the best out there and the funny thing is about half of them had been to both theirs and ours, and had the certificates proudly mounted beside each other, especially the CMC's. that total number may only be 12-14 for the Navy people I met but It made me proud for them to recognize theCPOA.

I'm one of those Senior was talking about, who went because it was now required, but left with a few more "tools" to work with.

My .02
Todd

[YNC Josh Braarud]

Josh, If Joey Persico is still there, tell him I said hello. He and his wife are good people, Enjoy the class.

Todd

Will do, Todd.

[SKCM Linda Reid]

... and do give MCPO Frank Tatu a hard time ... he decided to join the class.

[PAC Darrell Wilson (Ret)]

Well gee Todd, I gathered my info from talking to the senior enlisted who runs the class, talking in great depth with the PO1 who attended and living next door to an Air Force E-8 and E-7 who talked to me about the school. Thats how I formed my opinion.

I am a huge fan of the Army way on how they train and teach. And I GATHER my info from that cause I am prior service Army, my uncle is a retired Army CSGM, my brother is career Army, and several of my old Army buddies are now E-7's and E-8's. I called and spoke with the school staff on Fort Richardson Army base here concerning sending some junior people thru but I dont know if its going to happen or not.

[DCCS Todd Holcomb]

Senior, I agree 100% on the other services schools. I have heard nothing but great things about the Army and Air Force senior schools. If I planned to make E-8 or stay in much longer, I would put in for one of those in a heart beat. The MSO I am co-located at had a PO1 attend the senior airman school on Elmendorf Air Force base and it was great for him. From what I gathered it far exceeds our CPO academy.
Darrell,
I went to the CPOA, I am prior ARMY, Have a brother (SSG) in the Marines, and have been in many of the Navy's Chiefs messes over the last 3 years, but I can't say with any real justification that any one services schools far exceeds the other. Now if I get the opportunity to attend another services SNCO schools then I can compare those in which I have personal knowledge.

"Talk to Senior enlisted who run the class", which class? If it is the CPOA instructors and they are telling you this, Have they been to the other services schools? If so then I guess they can render an unbiased opinion. "Live next door to Airforce E8/9 and talking to them about the school", again which school? Have they been to both? If not, if these are all AIR FORCE related, How many CG people that you talked to about the CPOA have been to more than one? according to the Navy Chief's I put in my earlier post, the CPOA is the best thing since sliced bread, again I can't give an honest opinion, w/o attending more.

I just think(my opinion) that we should partake before we decide. ie;Just like like the CCTI how can anyone say it doesn't work or that it's not worth it if they haven't been through it?

Hopefully you'll be able to get your guys into Ft. Richardson, I wholeheartedly believe we need the same set up as the ARMY (PLDC,BNCOC,ANCOC, etc) so we can have leaders developed over their careers, instead of waiting until the E-7 level. At that point in a person's career it's hard to "unlearn" habits, if need be, and their leadership style has already been ingrained. As I said before I got a lot out of it.

I too am a big fan of the Army's ways with a lot of issues, but the training and leadership model, for lack of a better word is great. But again I can't say the course itself "far exceeds our CPO academy".

I'm just asking here, so don't shoot me, but is it that you think the other services leadership schools are that far superior to ours or just that their systems in place are?

By the way where where you in the ARMY? I was in Bamberg, Germany 1/52 Infantry 86-88. Yeah I did the 2 year thing, that's all it took for me to realize I didn't want to live out of a foxhole or stop bullets for a living. I in no way mean any disrespect to our brothers/sisters in arms, I have the utmost respect for those who choose to defend us at that level. it just wasn't right for me.

These are just my opinions and I just don't like to see other Chief's saying one far exceds "OURS" without firsthand knowledge. It's kinda like Jo's Yo-Yo fish essay.

I'm assuming you're in Alaska, If I ever get up there I'll buy you a beer and we can sort out the worlds problems and the same holds if you ever get to Long Island, where I'll be middle of next month(YIPPEEEEEE)

Todd

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

To answer Deane's question,
I never attended the Academy, because it wasn't required for me to advance. I've never had any complaints from my superiors about my ability to lead. Never had any problem networking. Public speaking....not an issue for me. I've stayed operational since I joined and never really saw where I had the time. And honestly, the thought of spending five weeks in a classroom environment isn't all that appealing to me. Many people need a structured setting like the one provided at the Academy, I never felt as though I did.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

I think the CPO Academy was a good experience. I got exactly what I put into it. Expanded my network of Chiefs, learned a few things, and left with a different sense of who I was as a person then when I arrived.

One of my classmates put it very well, I actually wrote it down when he said it,

"Before I can help my people to be better people, I need to make myself a better person."

If I am reading most of the responses on this discussion, I think the underlying problem is the lack of formalized building blocks of leadership training that is consistent throughout the Coast Guard.

For example, teach things like "Bob" at a lower level basic leadership course. Teach things like Awards writeups and Evaluations at a mid level course and use the CPO Academy more like a grad school capstone type course, refresh on the things we did at the earlier training, but assign a problem to the class and have them tackle it. The end result could be a position paper that is used by CG Leadership to implement a course correction.

[ITC Steven Grimes]

I keep seeing questions about what you’re going to get out of the Academy or why you should not go. How about why you should go and what you can take to the Academy. I learned almost as much from my fellow classmates as I did from the instruction and the teachers. If you don't go you have done nothing but be selfish with your skills as a leader by not sharing them with other Chiefs. I was very impressed by the different skills and experience that my classmates had. The examples that I had to learn from when I was surrounded by 62 Coast Guard Chiefs as classmates were immense. Those that chose not to go will not have that experience. So in my opinion those that can't take five weeks out of their busy schedule to go are not helping to make the Chiefs what they could be. Do you think the students that do go were just sitting around thinking, "Hey I've got five weeks to spare, let me go to Petaluma and burn some time", don't think so. We all have lives and are busy, but we have to make choices. Your skills as a leader may be awesome and keeping them to just your unit instead of possible helping improve the leadership at 63 other units is selfish and minimizes your chances to help improve the U.S. Coast Guard.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Steven, you're assuming that those of us that don't go ARE limiting ourselves our units. I am very active with other Chiefs from surrounding units. Also very opinionated and quite outspoken. I can use this forum to reach more people than I could attending that class. And I don't know which unit I have been at over the past five years that was willing to give me up for five weeks. Not all of us are in the same situations. I have always and will always make myself available to anyone who comes to me seeking advice. I not going to limit that to the people who attend New london with me.

Steve, not everyone responses well to those formalized building blocks that you spoke of. Some people gain so much more from on the job training and those trails by fire.

People that feel the need should by all means attend the Academy. And as is true with almost everything in life, the more you put into it the more you will get out of it.

[ITC Steven Grimes]

The CPOA Academy is no longer in New London and has not been for quite some time. The course offered at New London is the Senior Enlisted Command Master Chiefs course; this is not the same as the CPOA. So if you had not made E-8 before the requirement do you feel your units would not have let you go? If anyone is being denied the right to go to the Academy no matter what their position of importance, real or perceived may be, I think the school and perhaps the MCPOCG would like to know about it.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

If it were a requirement for me to advance I would have fought to go. As it wasn't, I didn't. I also think that my commands looked at it as an elective for me as opposed to a need, which probably also affected their decision.

[PAC Darrell Wilson (Ret)]

Very well put Senior Chief Slesh, are you sure you're not a PA in hiding?

Todd, I really think you and I see eye to eye on all of it, we just have different ways of expressing it. The beer is on me buddy, when ever, where ever. I was in 11th Armored Cav in Fulda from '85 to '88 then 1st Cav Div at Ft Hood till '89. I got out cause all we did was train, train, train. Then as luck would have it, a few months after getting out we go to war and the 1st Cav Div was the first to go.

[DCCS Todd Holcomb]

Could be on the views.

The 2/2 Armored Cav was across the street from us and they had the best "mess Hall".

[ETCS Robert Kelley]

Darrell, you said:
"And if a CHIEF needs to go to CPOA to learn to network, then he/she didnt learn much in CCTI."

Oh, so VERY true... so very, very true!

On a related note, I just received an e-mail via the CMC network - and am shocked.

In d7 ALONE, there are 170 E-7s and above that have NOT attended the Academy or a sister-service SNCOA as of this week. This includes 16 Senior Chiefs!! I can't imagine...

Chief,

Let me introduce myself as one of the 16 D7 area SCPOs who has not attended the CPOA, maybe I can help you imagine the situation that would facilitate that situation. I advanced to CPO in 1997, which was when the requirement to attend the CPOA to advance to E-9 was instituted. I applied to the CPOA the first time I was eligible, unfortunately I was one of 450 applicants for 250 openings. I was not selected but a lot of E-8s who applied their first time (driven by the new requirement) were selected. The requirement was later revised to make the CPOA (or other service school) mandatory for advancement to E-8 and now it is required to remain E-7 (within a year of advancement from E-6).

Since then I have attended the OIC school at the LDC and have successfully complete an XPO tour and ¾ of an OIC tour. During this time period the CPOA focus has apparently changed to an indoctrination course for new Chiefs based upon the requirement that all newly advanced E-7s are required to attend within a year of advancement. I also understand one of the focuses of the CPOA is education and I have completed 3 degrees (AS, AA, & BS) and currently working on a Masters. Can anyone who has attended both the OIC and CPOA courses tell me what the CPOA offers other than educational focus that I am missing?

Bob

[BMCS Deane Smith]

Bob...I also advanced to CPO in 1999. If I'm not mistaken, it was Jan 1999 when the requirement to attend the CPO Academy was in place to advance to E-8 not E-9.

[DCCS Todd Holcomb]

Senior, my recollection is that anyone who advanced to E-7 prior to Jan 99 was, here's the buzzword again, grandfathered. For all who made it after that they were required to attend CPOA to compete for 8.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Steve, not everyone responses well to those formalized building blocks that you spoke of. Some people gain so much more from on the job training and those trails by fire.

Senior Chief Slesh,

I agree with you that different people have different learning styles and will certainly benefit from the "trial by fire" That is called learning from your mistakes, and ensuring that you at least don't repeat them.

A formalized resident training program simply augmments the real world Coast Guard that we live in, it can never replace it.

I think that if formalized building block leadership training were ingrained in CG culture, we wouldn't be having this argument.

Think of it in terms of career pipeline training. You wouldn't send an OIC or XPO to a unit without certain courses to teach them the nuances of leading a unit would you? You wouldn't send a GM or ET to a ship without the pipeline training of the systems aboard that ship to do the job effectively.

Why as an organization are we sending our people out into leadership positions without the training and tools they may need to complete the jobs effectively?

[PAC Darrell Wilson (Ret)]

Could someone that recently went to CPOA please explain what the class teaches?

Steve, I understand what your talking about concerning pipeline training but everything I am hearing on here and else where, people are saying they learn to network, they get in shape and they work on their education. They are not learning any technical training like pipeline training.

I am just looking for what the class really teaches.

Also, someone mentioned earlier that it is a requirement to attend within one year of making E-7. Is it a written requirement or something they just shoot for?

[DCCS Todd Holcomb]

Could someone that recently went to CPOA please explain what the class teaches?

I am just looking for what the class really teaches.

Also, someone mentioned earlier that it is a requirement to attend within one year of making E-7. Is it a written requirement or something they just shoot for?
Darrel, Here's my short version I went in Oct 03 and it probably hasn't changed much.
1. there were a lot of instances where we had to get up and speak in a formalized setting. I know this is old hat for PA's and some others but for the snipe types we don't usually get as much opportunity for formal presentations. So I would say effective public speaking.
2. We went through the "Generations" model which really opened my eyes, do I wholeheartedly agree with it.........HMMMMMM? Different generations have different values, what worked to motivate us as junior PO's may not necessarily work for todays.
3. I throughly enjoyed doing the Myers Briggs Type Indicator test(personality test). they also go through how you can use this in conjunction with "Generations" to help those that are sometimes a little harder to reach.
4. We did a clep test but I don't really think the cirriculum is centered around college credits, that was only a small part.
5. We spent a few days on effective writing, again old hat for some of you.
6. We spent a few days working on wellness, health and well being, not just how it affects us but how to use it to help others.
7. Some time on effective listening as a leader.
8. Process improvement guide(PIG).
9. Making the hard decisions.
10. Coaching and counseling.

I know a lot of this is everyday stuff for a lot of people but it was good to see so many different approaches to some of the scenarios they put us in. I think the lesson of teamwork was key.

As far as the 1 yr. thing????????????? I thought it was a requirement for 8 but didn't think it was mandatory, and I didn't know there was a time frame attached. If that's different someone let me know so I won't pass bad info to others.

Hope this helps,
My .02
Todd

[BMC Ken Gouge]

Darrell, I think you are mistaken about the 1 year thing. They advance many more E-7's in a year than they have billets for the class in a year.

[PAC Darrell Wilson (Ret)]

That makes sense to me Ken, I was quoting the one year thing from someone else on here who mentioned it.

[MSTCS Tom Gentile]

Originally, attendance was required within 1 year of making E-7. (my wife was in that group) That has since changed and the policy as of today is that it's only required for advancement to E-8. (I fell into that group) Also, it is NOT required for advancement to CWO. If you haven't attended and make CWO there is the CWO INDOC course at New London.

[ITC Steven Grimes]

I am under the impression, having recently attended, that the goal will be to require it for all E-7's just as soon as they feel they can handle the required amount of students. Regardless of whether they will be trying for E-8.

[BMCS Nick Pupo]

MSTCS Gentile: I dont ever remember hearing about the "within 1 year" policy. I do, however, remember hearing that the then MCPO-CG, MCPO trent wanted to required a policy similar to that. Which was, if you did not attend within 1 year you were reduced in rate to E-6. Almost anything is available on the web can you provide me with the policy, vice just word of mouth. Also, the CWO Indoc course is required for EVERY new CWO. If a new CWO never attended the CPO Academy then its length is 3 weeks vice the standard 2.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

I'm not sure of what the guidance "was" or what the goal of a former MCPO-CG was, but when I went through a couple of years ago, we were told that the goal was to get "newly advanced" CPOs within two years of being advanced into the course. I have never seen this in writing, but with classes of 64 each time, it seems like they could get a good majority of the newly advanced CPOs through without problems.

As I recall, our class president was pretty close to or just over the two year mark and they were a bit hesitant to send him through.

[OSC Jeff Alger]

Could someone that recently went to CPOA please explain what the class teaches?

Steve, I understand what your talking about concerning pipeline training but everything I am hearing on here and else where, people are saying they learn to network, they get in shape and they work on their education. They are not learning any technical training like pipeline training.

I am just looking for what the class really teaches.

Also, someone mentioned earlier that it is a requirement to attend within one year of making E-7. Is it a written requirement or something they just shoot for?

Check out COMDTINST 1500.15F for the straight skinny on what the Academy teaches. Their website has a lot of good information, as well.

I'm also a recent gradute (same class as Steve Grimes), and I feel it was time well spent. I'll echo the sentiment that I learned more from the collective experience of 63 Chiefs (plus the staff) than from anything that was being formally taught. Yes, I knew a lot of what they were teaching, but much of what helped me was the stuff they don't teach, like time management, developing resources, research skills, etc.

The first day, they ask you why you came to the Academy. Many people put their reason as "because it's required to make E-8". Towards the end, they ask you if you learned anything useful. I don't think anybody said no, and many of us said we learned more than we expected to.

Was it all good? Not at all. Nothing ever is. But, as a new Chief, I definitely felt it was worth going.

[MSTCS Tom Gentile]

Hi Nick,
This is straight from the CPO Academy website:

The Coast Guard has made the successful completion of the Chief Petty Officer Academy a requirement for E-7s to be able to take the SWE to E-8. This is required of all E-7s promoted on or after 01 Jan 1999, both Active Duty and Reserve (see CG PERSMAN, COMDTINST M1000.6A chapter 5.C.4).

Members promoted prior to 01 Jan 1999 (1998 or earlier) do NOT have to attend the Chief Petty Officer Academy in order to take the SWE for E-8.

Also, as for the 1 year deal, I was referring to the reversion to E-6 you mentioned as that was the policy for about 2 years from approx. 1997-1999 give or take a year either side.

[BMCS Nick Pupo]

Tom, thanks like I said I didnt believe that it was policy to HAVE to go to the CPO Academy. But as you stated if you advanced after Jan1999 it is required to advance to E-8. With that any sister service Senior Enlisted Academy fulfills that criteria.
Nick

[YNC Josh Braarud]

I'm well into the first week now, and the staff let us know that they still have over 50 billets open for this summer alone. I tied my class into my PCS so it's relatively painless for either unit.

By the way, there are eight Air Force Master Seargents in my class instead of the usual four because some Coasties cancelled. They've already commented on how much more we work as a team as senior enlisted folk.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Josh,

I truly enjoyed interacting with my USAF counterparts -- I find it rather disappointing that we seem to have problems supporting our own service's leadership school, through cancellations, lack of attendance, etc.

[BMC Paul Wells]

My only problem with going to the CPOA is that I am at the end of my career and I would rather my spot go to a young CPO instead of me. I have always believed that the CG waits too long to send people to schools to teach them how to be a leader, "most" of the time its too late as they are already molded into what type of leader they will be. There should be a better availability[/B] for our younger PO's to go to learn these valuable traits, LAMS is very good start, but we need to make it mandatory to make E6 like it is for us to make E8.

Its mandatory for BM's to be a qualified coxswain to make E5, at least last time I checked it was...... Why focus on that instead of the leadership schools? If we (the CG) had more money for these types of schools then our future would be brighter. How about we stop sinking money into lost programs like Deep Water!!!!!

My two cents for the day!!!!

[BMC Ken Gouge]

Paul, I think you hit a good point. A BM has more requirements to advance than any other rate that specifically require leadership and decision making. I think that helps in the long run and is actually better than formal classroom leadership training.

Other rates may or may not be placed in the same leadership positions depending on their unit and billet within that unit. I also think that other rates aren't placed in leadership positions as early (regarding rank) as other rates may be.

Not to start any inter-"ratial" wars or controversy, my point is that while it is required that a BM2 already have the leadership skills (to be a cox'n) an ET2 does not have that same requirement. But both may end up as an OIC during their career. There needs to be ENFORCED leadership requirements for ALL rates at an earlier grade than E-7.

Ken

[BMC Paul Wells]

Ken,

Thanks for the support...I agree with you also about the BM rate, nothing against any other rate in the military. We all know that BM's are placed in that position as early as an E4 being a small boat coxswain. Thats just the way the CG runs. I just wish it would give these kids the leadership direction they need that early in their career's, whether you are a BM, MK, ET SK, or whatever rate you choose to go. Our E4's need the early influence in their career's, not later as I stated before. Most of the time we hold out hope that they each have a good person above them to learn from, but that is a 50/50 shot.

I have seen young kids as E5's and E6's lead in a terrible way and they reply to me when I ask them about their leadership, "Thats the way my supervisor showed me." They dont know any different because they have not had the chance to attend LAMS or anything else.

It doesnt matter what rate you are, eventually you will be in a position to be someones supervisor.

[BMC Mark C. Lewis]

Something that was not mentioned was that there are persons out there advancing to E-5 and E-6 in four unit at one unit, not much in the way of a diverse leadership styles for examples at one unit.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Mark, how true --

It looks like we will diverge into the juniority argument here. But that is why we must train and prepare our people for the leadership positions that will come in their career.

Even if someone chooses to leave the CG after 1 tour, thel essons they could learn in a formalized leadership training program will benefit them throughout their lives.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Which would be a hard sell for the CG. We already lose out a large investment when we lose a first termer. Now I'd bite off on the investing early in their career "hoping " people decide to stay around.....but helping prepare them for their next career ?

[MKC Ryan Sinclair]

I will be attending the CPOA next month and I am going to be honest and say that I'm a little worried after reading over the course info. I'm not the best public speaker, writer or leader for that matter, but it looks as though this class will challenge me to become these things and that will be a real good thing for me. I'm also looking forward to meeting and hearing the opinions of 60 something Chiefs.

Something that was not mentioned was that there are persons out there advancing to E-5 and E-6 in four unit at one unit, not much in the way of a diverse leadership styles for examples at one unit.

I'm the perfect example of what Mark is saying here, making Chief in 8 years. Hopefully the CPOA can help me out in some leadership areas, given my "junority" I never had the opportunity to attend LAMS. This course looks like it's just what I need.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Come on Senior, you can't tell me that in your Coast Guard career you didn't pick up a few lessons along the way that will benefit you in your life after the Coast Guard.

Your statement would be like, saying, "I'm not going to send my kids to college to get a Bachelor's degree because they might just take the things they learned and go get a Masters or a Doctorate."

Also, consider that most American workers in today's economy change jobs/career fields something like every 2-4 years, what are the supposed to do a data dump of all knowledge obtained while employed by company X before going to work for company Y?

[ITC Steven Grimes]

Ryan, first off congrats on making Chief in eight years. That’s quite an accomplishment. Your fear of public speaking is quite natural and let me assure you, you will not be alone on this one when you meet your classmates. You will get out of it, what you put into it. The public speaking training there will definitely improve your skills. The great thing is you end up depending on your classmates and they end up depending on you. It’s very much a team effort. Let us know what you think when it’s over. There are those that think they won't learn anything and won't go, their loss.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Steve........Holy reading things the wrong way Batman. My statement would be like saying that " I'm not spending CG time and money to train someone who isn't going to return that investment in the CG." Given one slot to fill for a formalized school, would you rather send someone who has career intentions, or someone who has already stated that they plan on getting out? I'm worried about our "future" leaders, not our "future" civilian taxpayers. It's the same reason that the CG wants you to send people to school when they still have twelve months remaining at their current unit. Train your own crew for their current billet, and try not to worry about their next assignment. Also, given one slot for the CPOA, would you give it to the MK who needs it for advancement to E-8 or the BM who has shown no desire to seek OinC certification ? One slot to fill....does it go to Ryan with 8 years and the potential for 12+ more, or the Chief with 18+ on his twilight tour ? My answer for all would be the one that best serves the CG, not the dead weight. I would rather use the resource than watch it get p1$$ed away.

[BMC Ken Gouge]

Which would be a hard sell for the CG. We already lose out a large investment when we lose a first termer. Now I'd bite off on the investing early in their career "hoping " people decide to stay around.....but helping prepare them for their next career ?

Stu, I believe that the Montgomery GI Bill might just help prepare them for their next career...

I have seen 1st termers decide to get out because they didn't get out of their first term what they thought they would. Long wait for A-School, not getting C-Schools, spending their 1st 4 years at one unit and not getting to see how the other side lives (afloat OR ashore) and many other preventable reasons. Many of these people become disenchanted because of these things, but would have stayed in otherwise.

When they wait for 2 years on an A-school, and then they are told they have to extend or re-enlist just to be able to go. About half of those I've seen just get out. If all they've seen of the CG is a migrant ferry why tempt fate?

They NEED leadership training at least as a prac for E-5. The need to see both afloat AND ashore in their first 4 years, and they need US to show that those experiences can produce professional, well-rounded (not by beer) sailors who actually DO have a vast repository of knowledge regarding all worldly things...

Ken

[BMC Mark C. Lewis]

Ken
Trying to get every boot camper to two units in thier first four years is unrealistic and very impractical. It takes most people that long to get qualified and comfortable with what they are doing, not to mention the amount of money it would cost the CG.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

Mark- I disagree. No SA/FA should spend his entire 4 years at one unit. At most, it should be 2 years.

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

When I came in the Coast Guard, a non-rate afloat tour was 2 years. If you didn't go to A-school at that point, you would transfer to another unit in the geographic area so as to not cost the Coast Guard anything. Ken makes a very good point.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Where to start ?
Ken, the GI Bill was used as an incentive to get people to enlist. Do you allow people time off to attend college while they're at your unit or do they need to do that on their own time ? Can you USE the GI Bill while still on active duty or do you have to wait until you're Honorably discharged ? You might want to look into that. Tution assistance is available while on active duty, but I don't know of anyone who has rearranged a work schedule so someone was guaranteed to be off to attend classes. Which comes first at your unit ...the job at hand, or the future of someone intending to RELAD. And I believe that you have to have obligated service before you can use Tuition Assistance. The CG wants to recapture it's investment.
I for one, will lose no sleep over someone waking up from their dream state and realizing that Serving in the CG sometimes requires service. What ever fantasy TV or their Recruiter painted for them, I'm an artist with a different brush. I won't be bound trying to help someone reach their unrealistic expectations of what the CG should have been for them. Not everybody can be stationed at Mom's house. I'll go tit for tat with you. I have known many people who have opted out of the CG because they didn't like where they were going to be sent next. Mostly because it was going to be afloat. Recruiters have offered people guaranteed assignments close to home for their first tour. Just so you know, "It's a small world" is a bad song and an outdated ride at Disney. It's a big world. Our people need to be ready for world wide deployment. Those that aren't should get out. And not with their hand out. We owe them nothing. They signed contracts as adults. They were paid for their time. If they didn't do research prior to signing on and invest while they were in, we've already been taught two very important life lessons that they can carry with them, and it didn't cost us a thing. The CG requires people to re-enlist/extend after attending school so we can recapture our initial investment.
Most of the people who were disillusioned weren't the stellar performers anyway. They spent too much time whining about what they didn't have as opposed to enjoying what they did. Be glad that they're gone.
Dennis, I wouldn't care if a SA/FA did twenty years at the same unit. As long as they did SA/FA work and recieved SA/FA pay. I'm not a big fan of Homesteading Rated People and don't much like seeing people doing several tours at the same unit. Back to the Disney mentality.
Schools in general should be viewed the same as advancements. Rewarding people for future "expected" service, not pay backs for previous work. Investing in our future, not just theirs.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

An SA/FA does not know what the Coast Guard is all about and, he/she will not learn that at one unit. We have an obligation to the service to invest a little time and money in these folks during their first tour to make sure that they see more than one type of unit and one type of mission. Hopefully, by doing so, they will decide to reenlist and become those model Coasties we all want them to be.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I don't know....I think that some people can learn more at one unit than others could learn at ten. I agree with investing time, money depends on the individual and their needs. I've never had anyone who worked directly for me RELAD. While they worked for me everyone has extended or re-enlisted. And I don't lie or candy coat for the people I work with either. Almost everyone who has worked for me advanced at least once during our time together. I did everything I could short of taking the test for those who didn't. Some people might only want that one type of unit or mission, and forcing them into another one only forces them out. Some people are content in their current station in life and don't want anything more from the CG. Sometimes you can't do anything more for them than let them be.

[BMC Ken Gouge]

Stu, GEEZ, did I push a button or WHAT???

Dennis and Jim, thank you that's what I meant. When I came in it was the same, you transferred to a unit within the district at the discretion of the non-rate detailer. Usually where a local move or no move was involved.

Straight from bootcamp to a cutter. PERIOD. That is how it should be and let the detailers figure it out. After boot camp to a Station, ANT, MSST or whatever. The shore unit will then benefit from that as well, because they will be getting people that know what a qualification process is and know how important it is to qualify rapidly. It's harder at a unit that is already Port and Stbd to add extra training time to a person not qualified in time.

If you cant get a nonrate qualified at your unit within 6 months to do the things a non-rate is supposed to be able to do then you need to re-evaluate your qualification process. You then get an 18 month "return on your investment"

One other thing to remember is that these "boot-campers" have come from a different training regimen than one that you and I went through. My CC didn't give a DAMN about my feelings, and I was OK with that because I was in the F*&^%@#$ MILITARY. Now I don't even think they can look at them really mean.

[SKC Raymond Kurtz]

Does the Coast Guard have stress cards in Boot Camp yet? For the possibly uneducated, a stress card is used by a recruit to take a break from training because he or she or it is under stress.

When I went through Boot Camp in 1979 the CC was able to do anything and everything to you short of actually hitting you. I was called every name in the book, and maybe some that was invented by my CC. Like all forms of discipline I probably deserved it.

[BMC Matthew James]

No on the stress cards. The way I understood that legend was that one company tried it as an experiment and it failed for obvious reasons.

I'm down with the two-year nonrate tours, of course for that to work we would actually need some nonrates!

I would say more, but that should probably be on another thread.

[PAC Jamie Devitt-Chacon ret]

I graduated from the CPO Academy this month, and I have to say that it was the best training I have ever received in my 18 years in the Coast Guard.

Having said that, if you decide to go kicking and screaming, save your breath and the taxpayers dollars and stay home. There is nothing worse than being in training with people who hate where they are and what they are doing.

If you go with an open mind and ready to learn, it really is great leadership training. Take advantage of what the service is willing to give you.

-Jamie

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Ken, I don't really have buttons, but I am tried of hearing the "what else can we do to coddle to the whiners" speeches that have invaded the CG. We will never get to the point where everyone's first tour is afloat, and we don't need to. If people Ashore treated Non-rates the way people Afloat did the lessons would still be learned. When you report aboard ship you are given your PQS/JQR and told that the priviledges and benifits start after you become qualified to fill your assigned billet. When people show up at shore units, they're usually put in the same duty rotation as people who have been there for three years. Same housing, same liberty, same perks. Where's the incentive to qualify? The times haven't changed as much as our leadership has. I haven't had to put my hands on someone to get my point across for years. I don't even have to raise my voice or call people names, I just stare at them. Message recieved.

Jaime,
leave it to a PA to bring things back on point. I think that you're absolutely right. People seeking the training and going there to learn will in fact learn a great many things. People who are being forced to go will probably be disruptive to everyone else's experience and waste time, money, and a billet that could have gone to someone more deserving.

[MKC Tony Balcer]

Jamie,
Thanks for the input. I’m scheduled for the OCT class and I think I’m actually looking forward to going.
Maybe its time for old school to meet the 21st. century.

[MSTCS Tom Gentile]

Hi Ray,
The recruit "stress timeout" card is totally Coast Guard urban legend. I have talked to Master Chief Gordy Yowell, the Battalion Adjutant at Cape May at length about the recruit training process and that rumor happens to be one of the more popular ones he spends all together too much time trying to correct. For those who may have questions or concerns on the training our newest folks are recieving, try signing up to be to be a recruit company sponsor. It gives you a first hand look at the process and helps put an end to this never-ending recruit rumor mill.

[SKC Raymond Kurtz]

A funny story about the Navy stress cards. I have a neighbor who was an SK2 in the Navy onboard a carrier. My neighbor was telling me one day that a young lady not too long out of boot camp was having a difficult day and was being chewed out by her Chief. This young lady proceeded to whip out her handy - dandy stress card. My neighbor said that the Chief did not take kindly to this, and informed the young seaman that she was not in boot camp anymore and to put that #%@*ing thing away.

Raymond

[BMC John Phillips III]

Anyone else going to the Oct class? I will be. I saw that there are three so far that have posted here. MKC Balcer, BMC Ellis, BMC Williams and myself.

I will keep my views on going to myself until after I return then I can make an edjamicated post.

[BMCS Mike Ellis]

Actually, I came to the Sept class instead. You'll enjoy it. It's a lot of work, but very rewarding. I will admit that I'm ready to go home though.
Mike

[BMC Scott Coder]

I will also be attending the OCT05 class. I am not sure how "rewarding" this class will be, but I am looking forward to making new contacts and I know that I will learn some new and differant aspects of leadership.

Hope to see you guys there.

Scott

[OSC David Nolan]

I'll be there, with my clubs, as per previous emails that have gone out.

Dave

[BMCS Deane Smith]

Scott & John -

If you guys go into the academy with a bad (or negative) attitude about it, then that's how it will go. Why don't you try and have a good (or positive) attitude about OUR academy and go into with that mindset. With this board being a public forum, our junior Petty Officers are going to feed off of our attitude towards the academy and have the same attitude about it when its their turn. Let's not let OUR academy get a bad reputation, especially by those that have not attended.

As a Chief Petty Officer in the United States Coast Guard, you should be priveledged to attend!

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

On the other hand-

They are simply expressing reservations about attending a school that teaches the very same leadership skills and administrative duties that they, as BMs, they have been practicing for years.

I reject the notion that we should present a brave front for the junior petty officers. This board is designed to be a source of unvarnished truth. Let them freely state their reservations now, and give some input when they return. If they don't believe it to be worthwhile, especially after attending, they should say so.

I also don't believe that their experience will be tainted by their less than enthusiastic attitude. If the CPO Academy is as good as you indicate, they will come around. Just like they were PCPOs going thru a CCTI.

There are plenty of Chiefs on the forum that have related positive experiences from the CPO Academy. A couple of naysayers is a good balance.

[BMC Scott Coder]

All,

Not sure how it came off as Negative comment. I only stated I am uncertain how "rewarding" it will be. As stated above I am looking forward to making new contacts and getting some other views on leadership. The above posting was never meant to bash or minimize the academy. Sorry you took it that way.

To me a rewarding experience is one that is earned and fought for, so all of this may just be a differance in opinion.

Scott

[BMC John Phillips III]

BMCS Endicott, I agree with your post 100%!

BMCS Smith, I didn't think I came off as having a negative attitude about it in my post but I am skeptical, seeing how I agree with BMCS E's statement about being a BM for many years.

I will definitely go into the course with a positive and enthusiastic attitude and of course afterwards I will post my "informed" opinion.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Unvarnished Truth.......Deane's right. But I always say that. I also "read" both of your comments as being negative. I don't say that's how you meant to write them, but to me, they came off as negative.
As to the notion that BMs have been practicing these duties and skills for years...?.....Not all of them. Word on the street is that four people in a recent class were sent back to their units for practices that they should have learned "NOT" to do years ago. And at least one of them WAS a BM.
The Academy is like almost everything else in the CG, the more you put into it, the more that you're going to get out of it. Negative people can make positive people negative, easier than positive people can make negative people positive. I'm positive about that.
And JP3, I can think of two BMCs that each have almost three times as much experience being BMs as you do, that could learn a great deal from any formal CG training that they could get. I don't know what you'll get out of the class, but I know that your classmates will get more out of any class you participate in.
Let's not kid ourselves here........not all leaders are BMs and not all BMs are leaders. Those people who have all of that practical experience could share it with their classmates, and in the process, gain something out of it themselves.

[BMC John Phillips III]

I will try to keep it short and sweet, but I am not making any promises.

After attending, I will retract my agreement with the statement about BM's not necessarily needing this class as much as other rates.

At risk of hurting anyones feelings, I will say I gained more out of this class than I have out of any other experience in my career (CCTI included). This was possibly one of the best experiences of my life and anyone that knows me could recognize how mind blowing a statement that is!

If you haven't been through CCTI or you have a weak mess (not trying to get off topic - so please don't respond to that on this thread), I absolutely recommend attending. The Chief Petty Officer Academy is hands down the best our Chiefs Corps has to offer. We had 50+ Chiefs and Airforce MSGT's working together and learning together and more importantly teaching each other and creating bonds and relationships that will likely last a lifetime! I would venture to say that attending would actually make you want to go thru CCTI and give you the tools you would need to improve on your current mess.

I have always been one that believes if something was so good, it wouldn't need to be sold. Also, that if something was that beneficial, you shouldn't have to talk someone into doing it, as they are only selling themselves short by not taking advantage of whatever it was. Well, I was wrong about that too! (BMCS Slesh, do you believe I just admitted I was wrong two times?) If you choose not to attend the academy, you are indeed selling yourself short, but you know what? You are selling me, your co-workers, seniors, subordinates and the entire Coast Guard short.

I am gonna try to close here, I promise. I just want to add that the staff there is incredible. They are top of the line people that care about the future and current state of the Coast Guard Chiefs Corps; hands down the best instructors I have ever met. There should NEVER be an empty seat in that class, in fact there should be an extended waiting list to attend.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I do know you ...and that is a mind blowing post. Thanks for submitting it.

[BMCS Deane Smith]

John...Great comments about "OUR" academy!

Thanks for sharing your experience (at the academy) on this board. How could anyone who hasn't been not want to sign up and attend?

[BMC John Phillips III]

I was just looking at the Chief Petty Officer Academy's website and they have our class pictures up. If anyone out there wants to put a face to the name, my picture is appropriately #1, then 25,33, and again at 111, I think there was an error, I should have been at 11 too :D OK, just kidding about that, but the thing I am most proud of is that my jacket was the only one with two hash marks on it and yes I was in proper uniform.

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/tcpet/cpoa/gradPics/class129/index.htm

[PAC Darrell Wilson (Ret)]

Holy crap! If you put baggy pants and a t-shirt on, you could pass for a high school kid. I need to retire.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Darrell,

I get enough crap about the number of service stripes on my sleeve.

[BMC Ken Gouge]

I was forwarded this via e-mail. I merely post without comment for those who haven't seen it. This should remove all doubt as to whether or not they are serious about the fitness/weight standards. This is from the School Chief at the CPO Academy.

Subject: Class 133 - Opening Weekend Sitrep
Good Morning Captains, CDR, Doctor, MCPO Welch, Ma’am, Shipmates,
A quick run down of this weekends events:

As a reminder our capacity is 64 students.

62 students reported.

1 CG no show, reason unknown at this time, member from a recruiting office, no answer at home number or cell.

1 AF no show, member understood orders to be cancelled (this is the first time this has happened.)

3 AF Students onboard

1 International Student onboard – Royal Bahamian Defense Force

12 CG Students reported with Page 7’s with established screening weights

5 CG students were taped for exceeding MAW

1 of 5 above CG Students issued new Page 7’s establishing new screening weights

2 CG Students returned to unit for non-compliance with weight standards

2 CG Students on Weight probation, must be in compliance prior to graduation (17 April) or will be disenrolled. IAW 1020.8E member will be returned to unit with a recommendation for discharge if compliance not reached by 17 April

6 CG Students flagged for follow up with TRACEN Clinic for hypertension

3 of the above students Blood Pressure were outside of established parameters to prevent participation for today’s Personal Wellness Profile assessment. If cleared will conduct separate assessment

It is my experience that most hypertension issues are cleared by medical. Members can artificially raise their BP due to many factors, such as anxiety about the PWP or weight assessment.

V/R
JN

Proud to Serve,
MCPO John F. Niece
School Chief, USCG Chief Petty Officer Academy

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

Ok, I'll comment. You know me, I'll comment on darn near anything. Here goes...
It has absolutly nothing to do with "fitness". It has everything to do with compliance with COMDT weight standards. These standards are supposed to be checked by the sending command prior to sending the individual.
Fitness is a byproduct of the aerobics and things that they do at the acacemy. It is something that they can "measure" from beginning to end.
I like the idea that if someone is within a few pounds and could reasonably make weight prior to graduation, that they stay.
My feelings have been abundantly clear on how I feel about the weight VS fitness dilema.
Now this is all about "accountability".

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

It is all about accountability.......but who is being held accountable ? 5 out of 62 student who should have never left their parent unit. That's like 8%. Ask yourself if they met the standard on the day they were advanced. Ask yourself what's being done with them when they return home. Ask yourself what's being done to the commands that sent them. Ask yourself how many other people are at those commands are getting ready to transfer to your unit in the next few months. Too many commands are allowed to view these standards as suggestions. Where is the accountability ? They've added marks in the EPEM to cover E-7 and above participating in the Mess. When are they going to add one in the OERs for having your people meet COMDT Standards ?
The good order and discipline has JOs released every quarter for failing to meet MAW. I'm waiting to see someone held accountable to failing to ensure that they met the weight in the first place. These people didn't get over weight, overnite. 8% of our "newest" "?" Chiefs reporting to argueably the most important school of their professional career ? Where is the accountability ?

[BMC John Phillips III]

It is all about accountability....... Ask yourself what's being done to the commands that sent them. ........ 8% of our "newest" "?" Chiefs reporting to argueably the most important school of their professional career ? Where is the accountability ?

I want to see them start having the commands foot the bill for travel. To my knowledge, they haven't started that yet. Then again, some would argue my knowledge is very limited :D

Seriously, this is the most important school of their career, that's a very key point.

Accountability is something that has to be held all of the time. Not just to make an example or when it's convenient.

[YNC Josh Braarud]

The blood pressure thing is no joke either. We sent someone home from my class and had a few others who needed screening to make sure they weren't going to blow a gasket while they were there.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Yeah Josh, but we're not having the blood pressure thing rammed down our throat. And you can't tell someone has a blood pressure problem from across the parking lot. And I love the location you listed.

[BMC John Phillips III]

Yeah Josh, but we're not having the blood pressure thing rammed down our throat. And you can't tell someone has a blood pressure problem from across the parking lot. And I love the location you listed.

I know someone that you can tell has blood pressure issues from the other side of the planet!

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Yeah but you actually have to be talking to him to realize it. And if you get too close to the vein in his forehead you're entitled to hazardous duty pay.

[ASTC Ronny German]

I applaud the CPO Academy for enforcing the standards!

I agree that every member is responsible for their own weight and fitness, but as Chiefs, we are responsible for setting the best examples. If the Chief is a fat a$$, do you think he (or she) will enforce the regs on his (or her) subbordinates?

[PACS Steve Carleton]

I'm all for enforcing the standards, and spinning around and sending home those who are not within the standards, it is the right message to send.

Now, that said, when I was at the CPO Academy, they (an instructor, not an HS) took my blood pressure onthe final day to measure my progress.

I told said instructor, that I had been in the weight room lifting less than 2 hours prior and that my BP may be slightly elevated, the instructor told me that wouldn't impact the results tremendously.

When they handed out the final printed results, I was flagged and told that my BP was elevated and that I needed to get it checked out when I returned to my home unit.

Now, I'm all for fitness, meeting the standards (just set a new personal best in a half marathon), but I want to have assurances that the people administering things lie BP, etc know what the heck they are doing, before they send some Chief home because they didn't take all of the factors in to consideration.

[BMC Mark C. Lewis]

I had a BM3 sent back from a school and I found out that the school was not doing the PT by COMDT standards. Who holds them accountable?

[BMCS Deane Smith]

I had a BM3 sent back from a school and I found out that the school was not doing the PT by COMDT standards. Who holds them accountable?

I'm sure that you've already done this...but, you need to write a letter through the chain of command informing the proper people about this. We're very quick to be held accountable, we need to hold others as accountable.

[BMC Mark C. Lewis]

I called and talked to the XPO of the school and he said he would take care of it. I had another BM3 go shortly there after and they did PT IAW COMDT standards. I thanked the XPO.

[AETC Jason Cochrane]

The CG's CPOA experience was well worth it. After 16 years of just dealing with "Airdale's" it was good to learn what my "Black Shoe" breatheran do and how they handle different personnel issues. I felt that most classes where informative and would help me in my day to day job. There were a few classes that I felt could have been shorter, but that is for you to find out. The entire staff was extremely professional and were always willing to help. Some of the "tools" which I brought back to my unit were the different PT workouts (A School Student's hate :mad: ), better network of friends, and a increased respect for myself as a Coast Guard Chief Petty Officer. Good luck, and please attend the academy with an open mind. :)