COTM Responsibilites

[BMCM Deane Smith]

This was brought up in another thread and thought maybe we could get some conversation going in its own thread.

What are (or should be) the responsibilities of the COTM?

How do those responsibilities differ from the CSC/CMC?

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

First, the COTM and the CMC/CSC need to be different people. As a Chief, I would expect the COTM to come my aid and be my advocate should the need arise. The CMC/CSC may have a conflicting responsibility if he/she is responding to a complaint or issue that directly involves me. You cannot be my advocate and advocate for those that made the complaint at the same time.

The COTM needs to lead the Chiefs. I'll say that again- the COTM needs to lead the Chiefs. That means making them do things that they don't always want to do, keeping them focused on Mess issues, and ensuring that we police ourselves before someone else has to. A Mess is effective only when everyone it in works together. The COTM is responsible to see that happens.

We often default the job of COTM to the most senior member. However, I've never seen a rule, regulation, or policy that dictates that action. If the most senior guy isn't up to the job, replace him/her. Do it so that no one loses face, but do it nevertheless.

[BMC John Phillips III]

I am wise enough to know that I don't know enough to add my two sense (I realized I mispelled that but I decided not to change it ) here. Anyway, I just wanted to add that here in Corpus, our COTM is the CMC. I think you might have a good point BMCS Endicott.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Both should be strong, respected leaders. Both should be champions for all things CG. After that they need to be two very different people.

The COTM needs to be the most active member of the Mess. They need to be the person that can motivate others. They are the conning officer for the Mess. If they don't like the way things are going, they need to change course. A weak Mess has a weak COTM. The stronger and more committed the COTM, the stronger the Mess will be. It is a collateral job that needs someone willing to make the time to do right.

The CMC (Command Chief) is actually the COMMAND's Chief. Their primary duty is that of addressing Command issues. As Dennis said, they need to be the advocate of the enlisted force first, before being the advocate of the Mess. If they even give off the appearance of favoring the Mess, people will stop going to them about matters that involve Chiefs, and later about any matter.

The CMC should NEVER be the COTM. They should have two different agendas. I also don't like to see a sitting OinC as the COTM. It presents too many opportunities for people to question your desicions in matters that involve the base and your own unit.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

Which is also why the CMC/CSC should not be a collateral duty. There should be specific billets for the CMC/CSC at a every major command. It's a serious job that requires serious attention.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I'd back that play and second that motion.

[SKCM Linda Reid]

The guidance I have for the revised CCTI ... dated 1 Jan 1994 and signed by MCPOCG Jay Lloyd ... states, "The Chief of the Mess is the most senior Chief Petty Officer of the Mess." No mention of willing.

Anybody got a written job description - I'd love to see it.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I wouldn't use the most senior person present as a rule. Don't have anything in writing, but, if someone doesn't want the job, they're more apt not to do the job.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

My Command is rather top heavy we have 7 Chiefs including one SCPO, and very few E6 and Below, the remainder are O's or Civilians. The SCPO is the Silver Badge and has defaulted to the position of COTM for our little bunch here.

We do not hold specific Chief's Calls at the unit, we have on occassion, usually once per month take an extended lunch to address issues pertaining to the command/mess. I think our silver badge likes to gather input on unit issues from all of us which he considers prior to talking to the command.

We have a Consolidated Mess here in E-City with and E9 from another unit that serves as COTM for the Consolidated Mess. In my two years here, that person has only been the POC for setting up CCTI's, but there has never, let me repeat never been a Consolidated Chief's Call outside of CCTIs. I feel that is damn shame. There has been low level discussion of holding a Chief's gathering, but it has never materialized. The MWR side of the Mess tends to fall on the CPOA and our lounge, however, the Consolidated COTM does not support the CPOA and has in fact let his membership lapse.

In my humble opinion, the COTM has a duty and responsibility to the Chiefs, the Chiefs have a responsibility to the junior enlisted crew and the junior officers who need some seasoning.

The Silver Badge has a responsibility to the Command!

I just had another thought -- I think the idea of setting up Silver Badge Cadre Billets at the units to be filled by qualified personnel would be a good idea -- First it will open additional billet opportunities, place them under special assignments, have a review board, pipeline training etc. give them the "shield" crows and send them out the door. Second, it allows for some continuity and Command trust in the individual.

It works for the Navy, why not for us?

[ETCS Robert Kelley]

I wouldn't use the most senior person present as a rule. Don't have anything in writing, but, if someone doesn't want the job, they're more apt not to do the job.

I disagree... (especially when the senior Chief is the only E-9 or E-8 in the mess). I believe the senior Chief has to be the COTM and that if they are not willing to do the job and put forth their best effort he/she should not request a transfer to a billet that puts them in that position. By letting the senior Chief out of that responsibility it sends a message that it is OK not to live up to the responsibility of an assignment. What message does that send to a new Chief to the mess? What kind of Chief do we grow with environment that accepts “opting out”?

Bob

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

But Bob, people have already gotten that message. Opting out is what more and more people are doing from Chief's Calls because we don't have strong COTMs to ensure people toe the line.
The CG isn't going to spend money transferring a person that doesn't want to fulfill a collateral duty. A Command isn't going to reduce someone in rate for failing to live up to their responsibilities on the Mess. With a weak COTM, the Mess suffers. I would rather answer to a strong boot Chief, than a washed-up, uncaring E-9. (The use of E-9 was not a typo.) How many of you have seen the command remove a weak COTM or the CMC for that matter ?

[ETCS Robert Kelley]

Stuart,

I know people have already gotten that message from the top to the bottom of the organization… it is time the pendulum starts to swing in the other direction and where better a place to start than the Mess. I have been a boot Chief in a mess where the senior Chief (E-8) was non-functional in the Mess and the deck plate; it was not a good situation for anyone. Since he was retiring (Command holding him accountable for non-performance and he decided to retire rather than change) the Mess decide not to hold his feet to the fire. Luckily there were a few other E-8s in the Mess so it was not as obvious to the crew that the COTM was not the senior Chief and when his replacement arrived he was a boot Chief so the senior Chief was already the COTM and in this case the COTM and CSC were one in the same. Wouldn’t it be better (not easier) for the hard charging E-7 to help the Mess hold the senior Chief accountable to perform than accept sub-standard execution of a vital function?

Bob

[DCCS Todd Holcomb]

How does a mess go about ousting COTM if said COTM is substandard? and if Master Chief Reid's posting is correct, if the senior Chief in the mess also happens to be a member who aims low and still misses we are apparently stuck with them...................... :confused:

[BMCS Nick Pupo]

Todd, you got something in mind, in regards to the COTM. You're not even here yet and you already want to "relieve" the COTM? :)
I have never heard of a COTM being relieved, but I have see that the Mess has ask that they step aside, and somebody else steps to the plate.

[DCCS Todd Holcomb]

Todd, you got something in mind, in regards to the COTM. You're not even here yet and you already want to "relieve" the COTM? :)
I have never heard of a COTM being relieved, but I have see that the Mess has ask that they step aside, and somebody else steps to the plate.
;) Senior, Who Knows..............I'll borrow Donald Trumps line "you're Fired"
No, I have just never heard of that happening.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Stu said...But Bob, people have already gotten that message. Opting out is what more and more people are doing from Chief's Calls because we don't have strong COTMs to ensure people toe the line.

It all starts with a strong COTM, just like Stu said. If you don't have a strong COTM, he/she isn't going to ensure maximum participation. They're also not going to ensure that department heads (thru the CO & XO) understand that ALL Chiefs will attend. That's sometimes an issue at larger commands, but it takes an active COTM to curb that quickly.

[MSTCS Tom Gentile]

I promise this is my last post for the day! At the Command Master Chief school in New London, they address the specific issue of the Command Chief being the COTM as well. The message was very clear, the Command Chief should be the COTM. As for whether it works or not, I don't know, but I'll get back to you in a few months as Sector Northern New England comes on line, or better yet, maybe someone from our Chief's mess will let everyone know how well it works (or doesn't)

[SKCM Linda Reid]

Well, now, that's dang interesting! Looks like I can give this job to Frank Tatu when he gets back! He went to that class and never mentioned any such thing!

[YNC Josh Braarud]

Well, now, that's dang interesting! Looks like I can give this job to Frank Tatu when he gets back! He went to that class and never mentioned any such thing!

Should I warn him? He's right here. :D

[SKCM Linda Reid]

Yeah! Or maybe bring it up in a discussion!

[MSTCS Tom Gentile]

Hi everyone, I was just talking with MCPO Brayman regarding the teachings at the CMC course. He mentioned that the approved course curriculumn is written so as to promote discussion of this topic whether the CMC should/should not be the COTM and are there times that it will work versus times that it won't. It is NOT written to say that one way is any better or worse than the other. The comment I made in a previous post was based on a direct quote from the instructor who had the podium that day (not MCPO Brayman) and made the statement that the CMC and the COTM "need to be one and the same" I took that to be the schools position on the topic which it is not. I apologize to all for quoting someone who was speaking from their point of view and not that of the school.

That is all

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

No apology necessary, Tom. Too bad, Master Chief Brayman has decided to boycott this board. He could have shed some light himself.

[MSTCM C Stevenson]

Terrific topic. If someone would have told me prior to my current duty station that performing CMC and COTM duties simultaneously is a bad call, I might have believed it.

Then, I took orders to Sector LA/LB.

I wear both hats every day. It's a challenge I thoroughly enjoy. For instance...

Deciding where resolution of an enlisted member's problem/issue is best found... via The Mess or the Command... is a dance. Sometimes the answer is both. My point: Having both venues at my disposal = more resources. It's quite the luxury.

or...

Picture this: I sit in Command staff meetings twice each week; the only one wearing dark blue. The rest are O4'S and O5'S using Officer-speak to brief the Sector Commander and Deputy Commander, both 4-stripers.

In my pocket there is an unpleasant Mess-related issue needing the attention and complete buy in of the Officers. Keyword: Unpleasant. If I were to present the sticky issue to the Officers separately, it would take several sales pitches. Also, it's likely some might view it as an us-against-them (Chiefs v. Officers) thing.

So, I brief the Deputy and speak to the sticky issue. He turns to them, they look at me and nod a "yes, we're on board." - Done deal. Instant buy in. Score one for The Mess using Command turf. Peer pressure can be a wonderful thing and I certainly don't mind using it to the benefit of The Mess.

Then, from my other pocket I pull out an idea or process that makes the O'S lives easier. I make sure to tell them from which Chief the idea came.

It's a win/win. CMC and COTM duties can certainly compliment each other.

By the way - Nice site, Dennis. I know site Admin can be a bitch and extremely time consuming. Thanks for the space.

CRS

[BMCS Dennis Endicott ret]

Master Chief-
I had a situation once where the COTM/CSC had to decide whether to be my advocate with the Group Commander or advocate for another individuals within my crew. I was OIC at the time.

Without going into details, it wasn't a clear cut issue. As COTM I expected him to back me. As CSC, he had a responsibility to the other individuals. He couldn't do both.

After the issue was resolved, and because of other issues, the Mess asked him to step down from the COTM position so that he could focus on his CSC duties. That is why I don't believe you all should be doing both.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I still see problems with it. I think that it removes some the the Checks and Balances that are built into the system. It CAN work if the right person is put into the job who is willing to give 100% to both positions. I've seen too many people who didn't want to devote enough time to either.

[MSTCS Tom Gentile]

I am in the same situation as MC Stevensen. I am in every staff brief and meeting (not too much fun) and it amazes me how stuff gets briefed to the top of the Sector Staff. That being said, the Chief's Mess here discussed it at length and decided that with the right person, it would be a perfect fit. ( I take that as a huge compliment) There are some areas where we realize there is potential for conflict of interest, such as the Chief's Council that we run to help straighten the path of wayward youths, but in those cases the previous COTM, still stationed here takes on that responsibility. I also truly believe that with the right person in the job it can help raise the level of mutual respect and trust between the Officer corps and the Chief's Mess. The wrong person in the job would obviosly have the opposite effect. I guess this was my long winded tangent to simply say that "right person = good things" "wrong person= bad things". Each Mess will ultimately have to decide for itself.