What the **** is going on.

[RDCS Jack Hawkins (Ret)]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

As an old fart, looking in from outside, I really must question what in the world is going on, with the Guard today. I read and listen to all the speaches and the back and forth on this and that, How do we movitate the poor performer, how do we do this and tahat, yet Are you really taking care of your people.

In recent history, We have the Healy incident, PO Gill incident, The SA's homicide in Corpus last year, PO Ignatowski's homicide this year in Corpus,( hope this investigation is handled better that last year's), the suicide at Sta Lake Worth Inlet and the ongoing case of the BM sentenced by New Hampshire to three years in jail, for domestic violence, being "harbored" by the Coast Guard. These incident are just the ones I can recall reading about.

What in the world are YOU doing to protect your people? What in the Hell is going on?

[ETC Pat Kaschube]

Well hell it is easy to point out the bad things going on but here is a challenge for you. Give us five good things that you have seen in the last year. A 47 pulling someone's butt out of the fire, bet there was a chief behind the traininng. A 378 in the bearing sea taking a crabber in tow, bet there was a soaking wet BMC behind that evolution. An EM3 or maybe a FN that got qualified DCPQS in three months instead of six, I bet there was a Chief driving the program if not the person. I personally had a YN3 hook me up with a travel claim issue for one of my guys. Guess where she got the answer from??????
Remember what it was like being active? One bad thing wipes out ten good things, well that hasn't changed. Instead of challenging the entire Chiefs corp how about taking a specific topic to task and see if you get an answer.
Considering the number of posts we have seen from you so far you should take a step back and possibly try to provide some experience and some guidance instead of just being a source of complaints.
In other words if you don't have a specific solution to a specific problem,,,,shut up!

[MKC Chad L. Royer]

Pat,

Well said.

[AETCS Scott Wood]

Hmmm... I kinda thought Jack's post sounded a bit like Admiral Allen's Guardian Ethos message. :eek:

Maybe you missed it: http://www.uscg.mil/Comdt/all_hands/message19.asp

:confused: I'm so cornfused... which way do I go? ;)

In other words if you don't have a specific solution to a specific problem,,,,shut up!

Ow. Now there's an open invitation to productive discourse. :rolleyes:

[YNCM Doug Squires (Ret)]

Pat

Is it all retirees you feel that way about, or just that one?

I think the Senior Chief brings up a good point - you should spend a little more time thinking about your reply instead of just running off at the mouth!

Go back and read Guardian 1 and 2 that Admiral Allen recently sent. Although said slightly different - they say pretty much the same thing that the RDCS said.

MCPO Doug Squires

[RDCS Jack Hawkins (Ret)]

Pat and Chad,

I see the good things that happen. And I cheer them just as loud as do you.

But the stupid things that happen are what gets me. Healy, IMHO had the BMC checked the scene earlier than what happened, Perhaps they would be alive. How many times did someone mention the fact that people Could be thrown out of the boat during high speed turns. I don't know the FULL story of the SA's death,in Corpus, only the FU that occured after,BUT IGNATOWSKI would not be dead today, had someone walked her HOME. How about the BM at STA Lake Worth, who's wife got a box of his stuff, containing a couch pillow, with a bullet hole in it and blood on it. The fact that when she called the District, a Capt told her to just put it in a bag and someone would be around to pick it up can't be laid to the Chief's community, but who should have supervised the packing of the BM's gear? Can you picture what the response would have been had his young daughter picked it up. :mad: The case of the BM wanted for domestic violence is too screwed up to even consider with what has come out now, but multiple command layers screwed up:(
Check out the story on An Unoffical CG Blog.

I'll make you both a promise, Correct these kinds of screwups, and I'll not post What the Hell is going on again. I WON'T HAVE TO CHIEF!!!!!!!!!!!


MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS , WHO WEAR THE ANCHOR AND SHIELD THAT I DID. IF I HAVE OFFENDED YOU PLEASE ACCEPT MY SINCERE REGRETS, I MAY BE RETIRED, BUT I STILL CARE ABOUT THE COAST GUARD AND ALL IT'S PEOPLE.

Jack

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

The problems of today are amplified because of the different outlets to get the story out, both in quantity and quality.

Of course, since the darker side of humanity sells the newspapers and spots on radio and television, that will be the largest portion of our daily diet.

Let the reader beware.

The story did achieve it's objective. It spured an emotional response from an interested party.

To answer the question posed ... What the **** is going on. The CG is doing the best they can with what resources they have at their disposal. The human resources being drawn upon includes all segments of society, including the dark side of humanity.

Accusations certainly need to be investigated. I suspect this latest incident was investigated and the complaintent didn't get the response they thought they deserved.

With it out on the internet and such an interest is being displayed, it might require more resources to confirm or deny the accusations. The results of this may also be unsuitable.

The CG needs to prosecute those who make false complaints. Every complaint needs to be investigated. Uttering false official statements, an article of the UCMJ, is the appropriate charge for false complaints. Like everything else, the Article 15 or Article 32 Hammer need not fall immediately as some can be resolved with a CG-3307. Let's face it, the young PO or non-rate may not grasp the severity and reprocussions of the complaint because of their inexperience.

Anyone who's been accused and proven innocent knows. The rumor mill embelishes the story expotentially.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Jack, as another old fart, ...... I say it goes back to that fear of confrontation. You could add some fear of admitting failure in there too. Some of those incidents might have been avoided if the right person stepped up and said something. Sometimes a person does step up and say something, and a higher authority tells them to "shut up and color".
We also need to be realistic. You can't prevent someone who really wants to kill themself from doing it. You can't keep someone from beating their spouse or their dependants. You can't force someone to leave their abusers. You can't change the way a person feels or treats their shipmate mates, their friends, families or themselves..... you can only hold them accountable. And you can only hold them accountable if you have that authority.
You really think that a death could have been prevented if someone would have walked another adult home? Who was going to walk that person home? Here's a solution, let's end liberty. If everyone stayed at work they wouldn't have access to the guns or the alcohol or their families.

We lose more Coasties every year to automoblie accidents,...... more specifically, with motorcycles. Should we ban motorcycles to protect a handful of people while depriving the liberty of the other hundreds of riders that practice safe responsible driving?

I don't know the full story of the SA's death in Corpus last year either....... I do know that there were people who tried to do the right thing, and people in high positions went another route.
I don't care who starts the question, the answer is that you can't stop people from doing what they really want to do. If they really want to do it, they will find a way. We need to identify the hazards and mark the shoals. Now's the tricky part...... we need to take the people who don't want to follow the rules of the road off of our waterways.......... that's not going to happen. We have too many people who are at least a phone call away saying things like "they need a better mentor"... "have you tried to empower them to make better decisions".... "how about performance probation" ..... "put some duct tape on it"........
Some people shouldn't have been allowed to join the service. Others shouldn't be allowed to stick around. The forestry service goes out and marks the trees that need to be cut down so the rest of them can grow..... we're still trying to save them all.

[RDCS Jack Hawkins (Ret)]

Senior Chief Stuart,

"You really think that a death could have been prevented if someone would have walked another adult home? Who was going to walk that person home? Here's a solution, let's end liberty. If everyone stayed at work they wouldn't have access to the guns or the alcohol or their families. "

Yes, I do in this case. No, we don't have to cancel liberty. The PO3 lived in an apartment two blocks for the bar, where the party was being held. The dirt bag that is accused of her murder has stated that he followed her home and forced his way into her apartment.

This is an incident involving drinking, and she was impaired. An easy target.
Who should walk her home, I don't have an answer other than this.
SHIPMATES WATCH OUT FOR SHIPMATES.
Regardless of where you are.

As senior NCO's it is our job to do the really dirty jobs. Take the case of Sta Lake Worth. A suicide, crew packs up personal gear of deceased member for return to family. Wife opens box and finds, a couch throw pillow, with stuffing outside of the pillow, turns it over to find it is blood covered and has a bullet hole in it. I don't even want to think of the trauma to the young daughter, had she found it. Totally unnecessary. Who supervised the work detail, or was it just given to a couple of young non=rates and maybe a junior third, because we were too busy? The callous remarks by the Senior Command staff officer at District, are not something that WE as Chiefs can control, but had there been a Senior PO in charge, perhaps it would not have happened. Again
SHIPMATES TAKE CARE OF SHIPMATES

It seems that Pat and Chad think that I am a "typical" retiree. Oh, it was better in the old Guard. Perhaps it was. I do know that the Coast Guard is an organization that I love and am honored to have been a part of.
I don't want to see my shipmates hurt, traumatized or killed, when the actions of a Senior PO, could have prevented it.

I hope that you and everyone reading this will have a Safe and Happy Coast Guard Day. My local stations, have not yet finalized plans, so I don't know where I'll be for Coast Guard Day, But know this, I will be thinking and praying for all.

Semper Paratus

Jack

[AETCS Scott Wood]

Thanks Jack. I think you're right on track.

There's no doubt we won't hit 100%, but the premise in this Watching Out For Your Shipmates press is that at any point in time any one of us could be included the 1% that the 90% apparently consider expendable.

In 28 days, after 32 years, I'll be a proud member of the (ret) crowd. I'm running the gamut of emotions on that right now. I think I've already accepted the fact that once I cross that line my opinion is worth far less to those that remain than my medals are to Starbucks. I'll do my best to be content with my memories and pray that those few individuals I was able to touch will carry on with those traditions that I held close to my heart.

However, I do fear the WIIFM crowd will ultimately prevail--it's just the way our society is headed. For me (in the words of Joe Walsh) it'll probably easiest to simply turn my pretty head and walk away. It was a great ride while it lasted.

I will stand relieved.

[RDCS Jack Hawkins (Ret)]

Scott,

Congratulations, and condolences. The day you retire, will be the most bittersweet day.

if you are ever in the West Palm Beach Area. Please grant me the honor of buying you an adult drink of your choice and we will toast our shipmates. Past, Present and the ones we have yet to meet.

UP Spirits.

Jack

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

[quote]Considering the number of posts we have seen from you so far you should take a step back and possibly try to provide some experience and some guidance instead of just being a source of complaints.
In other words if you don't have a specific solution to a specific problem,,,,shut up![quote]

What does the number of posts a person has made have to do with their opinion on any given topic?

I believe if a retiree tries to provide "guidance" based on past experience, he/she will only be told that the CG has changed, we are not up to date with the current publications, and that is not how things are done in todays Guard.

While it is nice to offer a solution, it is not always possible... and..... it is certainly not a reason to tell someone to "shut up"... statements like that cold certainly affect membership & participation here.

Wray... :cool:

[BMCS Eric Guerette]

I don't care who starts the question, the answer is that you can't stop people from doing what they really want to do. If they really want to do it, they will find a way. We need to identify the hazards and mark the shoals. Now's the tricky part...... we need to take the people who don't want to follow the rules of the road off of our waterways.......... that's not going to happen. We have too many people who are at least a phone call away saying things like "they need a better mentor"... "have you tried to empower them to make better decisions".... "how about performance probation" ..... "put some duct tape on it"........
Some people shouldn't have been allowed to join the service. Others shouldn't be allowed to stick around. The forestry service goes out and marks the trees that need to be cut down so the rest of them can grow..... we're still trying to save them all.

I couldn't have said it better if I had stared at the computer for a week!

As for the retirees:
I have no idea where this feeling of the active guys not wanting to hear what you have to say. Are there a few retirees who's opinions mean little to me, of course. There are active duty opinions that I ignore as well. For me it has nothing to do with active/retired/reserve/etc... it has to do with the quality of the advice. Even if you reference an "old" policy, we can still benefit from "this is how it used to be done". Being an effective leader has more to do with dealing with people than with the dotted I's and crossed T's of CG policy, and that is some of quality input a retiree can give us.
Eric

[BMC Russell Miller]

Senior Chief Stuart,
As senior NCO's it is our job to do the really dirty jobs. Take the case of Sta Lake Worth. A suicide, crew packs up personal gear of deceased member for return to family. Wife opens box and finds, a couch throw pillow, with stuffing outside of the pillow, turns it over to find it is blood covered and has a bullet hole in it. Jack

Senior.
Let me ask you this question,
1. Do you think the crew that was cleaning up may have made a honset mistake?

2. How many suicide have you had to clean up when they have used a gun?

3. Have you ever seen the mess it makes?

I have three times over 25 years, it not easy thing to do. You have to go through everything to make sure there is not anything that may hurt the family, you are in there knowing a friend ended thier life, you are standing there with the blood and grey matter, every where. Do you think that is a easy job? Do you think the crew did this on purpose? We are humans, there is alot of emotions you go through when you clean up this type of mess. I pray I never have to do it again, and I prey no else does either.

[ETC Pat Kaschube]

Jack
I wanted to reply sooner but my paid subscription apparently ran out and I wasn't able to get back on until this morning.
First off this is for you and Wray. The retirees have a huge potential to provide guidance to those of us that are still active. I think that if you asked the anti Bill Wells crowd they would back me up in the fact that I have accepted some of his ideas and questioned him in a way that does not state that the "Guard" has changed and you guys do not know what is going on any more. He is definately one of the less popular posters but I still respect his opinion and I feel I am able to navigate around his posting "style" to get to his points. Leadership has many sources of inspiration and those of you that were around when I was a deck seaman in 87 still have much guidance to offer. I have gone to my dad, a retired E7 in the Air Force (1982) for guidance so lets not make this about active duty vrs retirees because I would challenge anyone to find a post that I have made stating anything negative about someones opinion simply because they are no longer active.
Second, I apologize for the asshole way I came across. Bad day that blew up when I read a post that, in my opinion, attacked the entire Chiefs corp. I should have logged off, had a beer and looked at it the next morning.
Third, the post still reads as attacking the entire Chiefs corp. In your day were there no deaths, no loss of personnel due to stupidity or just pure accidents? Are these incidents truly indicitive of the modern day Chiefs or just more publicized. This is a legitimate question I think. In 88 as an E3 there was asuicide in Long Beach while I was on the Venturous. The individual was stationed on the beach and it resulted in a bunch of training for us on the Cutter, a good thing. But, it happened, that was twenty years ago. So it happened back then and it happens now. DUI's happened back then and they happen now. So my question is what is the difference between when you were in and now.
I can tell you, for everyone that works for me their favorite sports teams, be it baseball, basketball, who like football and who doesnt. Their favorite NASCAR drivers, favorite video game for those that don't follow sports, favorite beer, food, etc. I just get to know my people. I talk to them about the college classes they are taking, I debate them about their opions before they write a paper for their colege classes ( if I'mremotely qualified on the topic). In other words some of us realize that the people are what make this thing work.
I still think that the negative incident has ten time the impact of one positve incident and as Chiefs when our people do good we don't (or in my opinion should not) take the credit. I screwed up a simple paint job as an E2 that got me EMI shortly after a stellar report as the DCPO. Just a personal example that Ichoose to use an how not to do buisness.
Agian, my tone was out of line. The intent of my post still stands and I will alway welcome the retirees opinions.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

if you are ever in the West Palm Beach Area. Please grant me the honor of buying you an adult drink of your choice and we will toast our shipmates. Past, Present and the ones we have yet to meet.

I'll be there Saturday..... (only kidding) but I do get down there once and awhile... If I have time I'll look ya up and the first round is on me....

Wray... :cool:

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Pat,
Thanks for the post..... It wasn't your subscription that ran out.. I think (just a guess) that Dennis forgot to pay the bill again.. I don't believe anyone could get on for a day or so.... Maybe all you "dues paying" members should tell Dennis to take that money he has offered up, and put it back into the account here..

I know Jack was not attacking the entire Chief corps..... His concern for others may have come across to you like that, but lets not forget... the Chief's were know as the "backbone" of the CG, in our day... They took care of the junior members, senior members as well as all other fellow Chief's.... Being retired we are not always privy to message traffic or CMC e-mails that may be going around.

As always one "Ah Shit" wipes away 1000 atta boys.... some things will never change...

Wray... :cool:

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Jack...If I might ask, what years did you serve in the Coast Guard?



lets not forget... the Chief's were know as the "backbone" of the CG, in our day... They took care of the junior members, senior members as well as all other fellow Chief's.... Being retired we are not always privy to message traffic or CMC e-mails that may be going around.

Wray...Are you saying that the Chiefs aren't the backbone of the CG today? Or, am I mis-reading your post? Thanks for clarifying.

[ETC Pat Kaschube]

It is amazing what can get lost in translation between the written word and the word spoken over a couple of beers.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Deane,
Why do you always take everything I say in the negative.... To clarify for you, it was a very common phrase.. I think I even had a t-shirt that had that on it... It was a saying that was often said, and written...

I have not seen it said or printed anywhere for years.... I was not inferring anything about the Chiefs of today... I also do not know if they have any particular sayings they use... I certainly haven't seen any that I can think of right off the top of my head. (to clarify -- that does not mean or imply there are none.)

Wray... :rolleyes:

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

Deane,

Wray isn't saying the CPOs of today aren't the backbone.

Being retired we are not always privy to message traffic or CMC e-mails that may be going around.

That is the most operative of Wray's posting. We get to see the publically released stuff, via the various sources. We don't get the CG's side of things till the damage control team goes into action. Not that the CG is hiding anything, it's they are late to the public information arena.

Everyone needs to remember the darker side of humanity sells. One person's opine is just that, one person's opine. That reflects the "perception" of one. Reality is rarely perception. Till a full story is out, expressing the views of all sides, will perception bow to reality.

Hindsight has perfect vision. Foresight is blind when compared to hindsight.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Deane,
Why do you always take everything I say in the negative....

Wray...I wasn't taking it negative. It was in a context that I couldn't tell your meaning...that's why I asked for you to clarify! Thanks.


Deane,

Wray isn't saying the CPOs of today aren't the backbone.



That is the most operative of Wray's posting. We get to see the publically released stuff, via the various sources. We don't get the CG's side of things till the damage control team goes into action. Not that the CG is hiding anything, it's they are late to the public information arena.[/QUOTE]

That's a good point. This is a good argument for why a retired Chief should stay active in the CPOA if near a chapter.

[AETCS Scott Wood]

Scott,

Congratulations, and condolences. The day you retire, will be the most bittersweet day.

if you are ever in the West Palm Beach Area. Please grant me the honor of buying you an adult drink of your choice and we will toast our shipmates. Past, Present and the ones we have yet to meet.

UP Spirits.

Jack
Thanks for the invite, Jack. Maybe after I retire I won't try to avoid Florida. :D

I will most certainly always toast the aforementioned shipmates with the fondest memories.

If I head down your way, I'll be sure to look you up.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Jack, if that was what happened with the personal effects of the member, someone senior should be held accountable......
but with the case in Corpus, you have to hold the killer accountable. Saying that the other people she was out with are somehow responsible for not looking out for their shipmate ....... is irresponsible in itself. Like you said, she lived two blocks away. A man followed her home and forced his way into her apartment......... can you say that he won't have waited until her escort left before he forced his way in?
I'm all for pointing the blame, but let's focus a little. The senior person in a crew can't possiblly continue to look after everyone and still grant liberty. Adults need to be adult enough to make adult decisions. People need to take repsonsibility for their own actions as well.
Five shipmates go out to a bar. One of them picks up a girl and plans on taking her home. Is it really the responsibility of the other four to prevent that from happening? Should they run a credit check on her and work up some blood tests to make sure she's disease free? Who's responsibilty to make sure she isn't currently married or spoken for? There's a line that can be crossed. There are things that you have a professional responsibility to ensure and others that you have a personal responsibilty to stay out of. Should you prevent a shipmate from driving while impaired,.....yes, can you prevent a shipmate from drinking if they of legal age and on liberty.....good luck with that one.
Two shipmates are out drinking, one has had too much in the opinion of the other. The "good" shipmate tries to prevent the other from continuing, a fight insues, and our good shipmate gets injured........... who opened themselves up for the AI?
If we move to hold the shipmates accountable for their shipmates' short comings, everyone is going to go out by themselves....... We have responsibiltes and we know what they are, we don't need to invent more. We are getting in the habit of blaming everyone else for the misdeeds of a few people.
You know who could have prevented the death in Corpus? Well anyone who was there that night if you want to cast the net far enough. Anyone who changed their actions could have changed the outcome. Who's responsible for her death? The guy who killed her. He can blame anyone he wants, his parents, society, the neighbor's dog....but he killed her. We can ask what we could have done better, but let's focus our finger pointing at him.

[AETCS Scott Wood]

Stu - your posts would be much easier to read if you'd add just a little white space between thoughts.

I'm not going to address most of your over-the-top-hyperbole, but I can't let this one fly by without taking a shot at it:

but with the case in Corpus, you have to hold the killer accountable. Saying that the other people she was out with are somehow responsible for not looking out for their shipmate ....... is irresponsible in itself. Like you said, she lived two blocks away. A man followed her home and forced his way into her apartment......... can you say that he won't have waited until her escort left before he forced his way in?

I guess I'd ask her shipmates if in their hindsight they'd walk her home.

I'm pretty sure I know what they'd say now.

I guess you take issue with the old adage, "There is safety in numbers."

Get a grip.

[RDCS Jack Hawkins (Ret)]

Master Chief Slesh
STU, If I may,

First , let me take my foot out of my mouth and tell you I regret, speaking to you by the wrong title. I did not read Master Chief, remembering my first days here when you were Senior Chief.

As to PO IGGY in Corpus. I can not describe to you and others why exactly her death has impacted me the way it has. You are right, when you ask, in effect Are we our brother's keeper. Can we stop Adults, even those still "wet behind the ears" from doing what we know are wrong and dangerous things. To a degree we can , while on duty, off duty, we hope the correct things that we have tried to drill and show them will take hold. Sometimes it does, some times it doesn't, often with dire results. As for Iggy, the news and police reports, state that she had an argument with the alleged killer at the bar, during the -party. He stated that he followed her home from the bar. COULD an escort have prevented her murder, I don't know and probably will never know, but I'll bet that those who were there that night, will, hopefully never let a shipmate go home walking alone again.
Shipmates take care of shipmates.

Master Chief Wray,

Any time, WRAY. The Captain Morgan is stocked, as is some very good Royal Navy rum, I received as a birthday gift from a fellow shipmate. Anytime ,anytime at all.


Senior Chief Smith,

Deane,
I enlisted in June of 1965, was in Company India 58, Was SA aboard the CGC Absecon (WAVP-374) til simmer of 66, when I started ET"A" school, At Groton. Bilged out of ET school, and after 2 months in the galley, started RD"A", graduating in Dec, 66. Was assigned to CGC STORIS (WAGB-38) from 1/67 to 7/68. Was then Assigned to CGC PONTCHARTRAIN (WHEC-70) from 7/68 to 5/69. After reenlisting early, I was assigned to PreCom Crew CGC RUSH (WHEC-723) form 5/69 to 9/71, including the Vietnam Deployment.
Upon return from Vietnam, was assigned to Harbor Advisory Radar/Vessel Traffic Service San Francisco form 9/71 to 11/73. Then assigned to CGC RELIANCE (WMEC-615), in Corpus Christi, from 11/73 to 6/75. Then to TRACEN CAPE MAY, duty as Instructor/Recruit Career Counselor, from 6/75 to 6/79. Then to Atlantic Area Training Team (Sar/Mobility/Law Enforcement) from 6/79 to 8/82. I went home to CGC RUSH for second tour, now as RDC, from 8/82 to 10/83, went I received a HUMs transfer to Group Charleston SC due to my mother's cancer, . I was there from 10/83 to 2/84, when I was transferred to CGHDQTRS (Defense Operations Division) from 2/84 to 7/85.
After making Senior chief, I was assigned to Vessel Traffic System new York, from which I retired, by way of Support Center New York, in Sept 86.

Chief Miller

Russell,

To answers your questions,
1. I certainly do hope so, but I would request that you read the postings on Fred;s Place from the wife from Wednesday and draw your own opinions. My point is that kind of job should never be left to juniors. There hopefully should have been a Senior PO, hoping a Chief to ensure that a mistake would not have been made.
2 & 3 Suicides. I have been involved as a friend and Volunteer F/F EMT for 17 years, (11 on active duty) in four suicides, three with guns, so I am quite familiar with the mess. No, I don't think cleanup and packing up is an easy job in any stretch of the imagination. Which I why, I feel that the CG work party should have been led by a Senior PO, at best a Chief, to see how how it was effecting his/her crew in order that they get the assistance they might need. Suicides effect everybody that knew the person. Everybody. Your prayer is the same one that I say. Never Again, Please God, Never Again.

ETC Pat,

Pat,

I came across too harsh also. Please reread my closing on post 6 of the thread. I was not attacking the Corps. But from my view each of these incidents, Could have been different, IF, one thing had changed.
I agree, that I only shine when my troops shine. and the glow is from THEM, I just get to polish it a little.


Thank You, My Shipmates, for your opinions and responses. As I said before A Safe and Happy Coast Guard Day to you all.

Semper paratus

Jack

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Scott, hindsight is 20/20. How many things would you go back and change if you knew the outcome? You can't ask those people if they would have done something different that night.... of course they would. A better question would have been if anyone could have foreseen what was going to happen that night.


Jack, you can't be everywhere at once. Even those people who will never let a shipmate go home alone....... at some point, someone is going to be the last person standing...... alone. This could have very well happened in a parking lot in broad daylight. There are bad people out there. Should we be looking out for each other? Absolutely. But you can't expect to protect everyone from the unexpected.

[RDCS Jack Hawkins (Ret)]

Master Chief,

Sorry for the delay, but I took a couple of days off.

Yes you are right, the incident that led to PO Iggy's death, could have happened in the parking lot. However, the idea that I am trying to promote, is that we influence everyone that we serve with. IF we make it a guiding principle, that SHIPMATES/CREWMATES take care of one another, at each and every station, it will become a fact.

Example: Ever see the movie MR. HOLAND'S OPUS? In that movie, a young music teacher starts a career that extends over a 30 year period. He interacts with a variety of students over the years. At the end of the movie, he is let go, due to school budget cuts. He feels that his life has been a failure, yet on his last day, his family take him to the school auditorium, where it is filled with his past and present students. The Governor of the State (a former student in his first year of teaching) arrives and says to him, You are not a failure, we your students are your opus.'

I was always amazed in my career, the number of persons, that I would run across, that I had served with before. I feel that my opus and I believe that of all of us that have or are serving in positions authority, was and is the people that I trained and served with, and how they were with others.

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

The Mr Holland's Opus is a great example Jack.

Our sphere of influence is greater than we think.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Wasn't that the movie about the guy who ignored is own child to mope about how his life wasn't working out the way he wanted it to?.......

Jack, I got your point. But where do we draw the line? Which one of us should have pointed out that you shouldn't have invited Wray over for a drink, because you can have fun without alcohol? Who should have pointed out that if you're going to invite him over for some rum you should first find out what the rest of his travel plans are? Who should have brought up the designated driver?....... Or should we all have accepted that you're adults, responsible for your own actions?
My point is, that as adults, we should rely first on ourselves..... and we should hold people accountable for their own actions.... then you can ask about the inactions of others. You can't prevent people from exercising their own free will. ...And most importantly, not everything that your shipmate chooses to do, is your responsibility to prevent.

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

I agree with much of what Stu has said here. I would add however, and I bet Stu will agree, that we do have a responsibilty to be aware of what our folks are doing and warn them when they are steering into shoalwater. It is also our resonsibility to make our expectations clear. Then it is our responsibilty to hold our folks accountable for meeting our expectations. It is not our responsibilty to assign a babysitter for our members. They are also entiltled to a private life. In fact, I encourage folks to have a private life away from their shipmates. We spend enough time together.

[AETCS Scott Wood]

Jack, I got your point. But where do we draw the line? ... You can't prevent people from exercising their own free will. ...And most importantly, not everything that your shipmate chooses to do, is your responsibility to prevent.
I take it you disagree the content of Admiral Allen's Guardian Ethos message... or perhaps you could point out which part of his message you do support.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Nice Phishing with you Scott......
Are you saying that we are responsible for every decision someone junior to us makes?
I don't remember having a conversation with the COMDT about this, I thought I was talking to you guys. Was it the COMDT that said that none of this would have ever happened if someone had walked her home or was that one of you guys?
I got the message about about being a shipmate. I got the message about looking out for each other. I think you missed the part about personal responsibility.

I'll ask you Scott, where were you when they were talking about getting together for drinks? I didn't hear you chime in to ensure they did it safely? When was the last time you stopped a shipmate from going home with someone they met at a bar? When was the last time you got together with the spouses of your subordinates to ensure that everything was alright at home? Have you ever gone out and talked to the pediatricians that take care of your shipmates' children to see if there's anything that you should be concerned about?
Here's one for you..... Do you
A. teach your subordinates about financial responsibility.
B. sit them down at payday and ensure they pay their bills.
C. pay the bills for them after someone else notifies the command that they haven't been paying their bills.
D. none of the above.
Where does your responsibility rest?

Its 11 O'Clock...... do you know where your subordinates are? Do you call them up at night to ensure they get enough sleep, or do you hold them accountable when they're dragging the next day?

You can ask around Scott, I'm a big supporter of COMDT policy. I'm a big fan of being a shipmate. People know where they stand with me. They know what's expected of them. I don't have any children working here. We're surrounded by adults. Adults making adult decisions. Not all of those decisions are ones that I agree with. There are some bad decisions that we can all live with, and there's others that we can't. Shockingly enough, the ones that we can't, are backed up by COMDT Policy. Shocking isn't it?

[AETCS Scott Wood]

I should know better than get into a discussion with you Stuart.

What part of this do you have a problem with?

It is a loss of situational awareness about our own shipmates. Collectively, these experiences remind us that we must be each other’s Guardian. It should not take a command directive to prompt us to remind someone to wear a helmet when riding a motorcycle. We should not sit idly by when a shipmate announces he or she is driving 24 hours straight to see their family or fiancée. Just as you would not disregard briefings and required checklists before executing operations, you must intervene before shipmates put themselves at risk on watch or on liberty. Likewise, we must respect the strength our Service gains from the diversity of our workforce. We should not treat our fellow Guardians any differently than we would treat those we are trying to rescue or save. We cannot afford the loss or injury of one single person. The effect on families and friends is devastating and everlasting. The effect on the Coast Guard erodes our capability, competency, and capacity to serve the Nation. We need each and every one of you. We must be Guardians of one another on and off duty.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Were we having a discussion? If so, why didn't you answer any of my questions?

I'll answer your question..... I don't have a problem with any of it. Stop people before you see them do something you think is dangerous.
There's a huge difference between stopping someone who plans on driving 24 hours straight, and someone who is going to walk the two blocks to their house. Not everything seems dangerous before it happens...... And we have policy about taking trips and what's considered a safe distance. I don't remember ever reading what was a safe distance or neighborhood to walk. If you're going to blame the people who let her walk home that night, why not blame the people that approved her request to live in that neighborhood in the first place? You can't foresee everything.

[MSTCS Jerald P. Motyka]

We could continue this with asking why the command didn't mandate at least two other Guardians live with her - and never let her out of their sight. :rolleyes:

We do a fine job of keeping each other safe, I think that this is just an aberration.

[AETCS Scott Wood]

Stu - I didn't answer your questions because they were rhetorical and they missed the point.

You might want to take off your two stars for just a second, and recall what it was like when you were a BM3... and when maybe YOU were looking out for your shipmates (i.e., your PEERS.)

Maybe you missed ADM Allen' comment... (It should not take a command directive). To me, it simply makes sense to walk a shipmate home late at night--(call me a sexist) especially if that shipmate is a female, but actually it really doesn't matter today; there's no shortage of bad guys out there that would do any one of us harm if given the opportunity, but females tend to be an even greater target. Why you miss that is beyond my comprehension.

It isn't always about the CHIEF babysitting; sometimes it's about the little worker bees taking care of each other as well. I think that's the Admiral's point. Sometimes the Chief may have to help teach the little worker bees how to do that--they don't get those lessons in most school systems nor is it included in the WIIFM classes. Those lessons come as we live--you and I both know the Coasties in Corpus learned it; they'll pass the test next time.

[BMC Russell Miller]

To me, it simply makes sense to walk a shipmate home late at night--especially if that shipmate is a female, but actually it really doesn't matter today; there's no shortage of bad guys out there that would do any one of us harm if given the opportunity, but females tend to be an even greater target. Why you miss that is beyond my comprehension.

.

Senior,
I agree that it does makes sense to walk a friend home, But it seems people are blaming her friends for not walking her home. Was this the first time she walk home or was it the 100th time she walked home by herself. Did she say she felt safe and did not want an escort, did she want to stay later than everyone else. These are questions that should be asked. We all live in areas good or bad, we all become safe in our neighbor hoods. We all make our own desions as adults based on our our comfort levels. Saying we failed her by not walking her home, not right. I have four kids 2 male 2 females 21-27 years old. Is there a chance something can happen to them yes, do I worry yes, do I tell them what the should do to stay safe, yes, do they always listen NO. Does this make me a bad parent? Do I tell my folks what they should do to stay safe at work and home yes, Do they always listen, NO, Does this make me a bad Chief a bad OIC? Does this make me or my crew a bad shipmate?

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

It's human nature to look back with such perfect vision and identify what coulda, woulda, shoulda, been done to prevent this accident.

We tend to blame ourselves first in the coulda, woulda, shoulda, analysis.

Dr Dennis Noble's book on Q-river reminds us the OiC stated that February night ... I should have trained them more.

Forsight travels in a thick fog. Hindsight travels with bright sunshine.

Be safe when navigating the fog of forsight.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Scott the questions weren't rhetorical, you just didn't want to answer them. You don't need a command directive to tell you to do what we all should be doing. And you can have faith that the people in Corpus learned that lesson..... I think they missed it. That was the second death down there in as many years.
We lose Coasties every year on the highway. Some when they try and drive too far with little rest, others who drink and drive. Some will never hear the message no matter how many times you tell them. When they fail, it's their failure, I'm not taking the hit for it. If my message were anything other than don't drink and drive, blame me all you want. If they were drinking at my house and I let them leave, feel free to blame me. If I had no part in their actions or their decision making process, I'm not taking the hit just because I'm the senior person at the unit.

And Scott, since I have your permission.......You're a sexist. Now you can explain how you ensure that every women who leaves your base gets escorted home. That you ensure there is at least one male to escort every female home at any function you organize at your unit.
I'll introduce you to some women who can take you two out of three falls. I'll introduce you to some women who make sure that their male counterparts make it home safely at night.
Just a question, it's not rhetorical, I just don't know the answer....... How many other women left alone that night? How many have left a bar alone since that night?
I wasn't there. I didn't see what they saw. But I'll put myself in their situation.... as a BM3 or a BMCM, unless I thought she was so drunk she couldn't safely make it home, I would have asked, and if she said she was okay, I'd have taken her at her word. If she was so drunk that she couldn't walk, someone should have said something earlier.
Do you really want to blame her friends for her death? You have that right. You can blame anyone you want. I'm going to blame the guy that they're taking to trial.

Joe, the Quillayute River incident is a great example. They were trained well enough that the unqualified guy was wear the protective gear. The others made the choice to ignore what they were trained to do. Now if no one had used the gear, maybe more training would have ben the answer?

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

I'm sure the killer will work a deal as, to quote an HBO series, "Texas is a killing machine." I'm sure the killer doesn't want the needle.