Condtion of Employment

[BMCS Nick Pupo]

Should the Coast Guard require that a prespective member possess a drivers license prior to enlistment?

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

Should the Coast Guard require that a prespective member possess a drivers license prior to enlistment?

No. You would be excluding a large portion of the urban population from applying for "employment".

What percentage of the billets require a drivers license?

I'll bet the PALs don't reflect any government license requirements.

[BMCS Eric Guerette]

What timing, just last week an "A" school student received orders here. He is married with 1 child and another on the way, neither him nor his wife has a driver's license. The closest gov. housing is just over 15 miles away, and finding someplace close to base for that size family would require 3 times the BAH. He could bum rides from others that live on base, but on the weekend he would be required to come in by himself. It makes for an interesting problem. I'm not sure why but his orders were canceled the other day, so I won't have to deal with it for now.
So what do you do with a crewman that can't drive? No parts runs, duty driver, or trailering, we have storage off base so they can't go get supplies from storage. Could I even make it a requirement that every have a license? I bet legal would have a field day with that.

[MKC Tony McKinnon]

Back a couple years ago, our non-standard boat eng qual packet had trailoring as a PQS item, being in key west we trailored quite often. Why couldn't you require some one to get a DL? Maybe not as employment, but first unit, I know, put it in the IDP and create another section!

[BMCS J Lucas]

We've got BM's that have never driven a boat before, so we train them as a condition of employment. We get FN's that have never turned wrenches before, so we train them as a condition of employment. Why can't the CG provide drivers training, i.e. supply a vehicle, and pay for classes so a member can get a license, as a condition of emplyment?

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I don't think you could or should require it. The member is limiting themself in their life.... but it is their life.
Would you support a policy where we discharged anyone who later had their license revoked or suspended?

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

If there is a "requirement" to drive, the PAL should reflect such a requirement.

Yes I know the reality of living 20-40 miles from the unit and the necessity to hold a valid operators license.

As far as the young person without a license and having duty weekend ... I guess they are on base for the duration, arriving Friday and departing Monday when liberty is granted. Now, they would rectify their decision to obtain an operators license pronto.

The we don't need to list drivers license in the PAL attitude only tells those at the palace it's not a requirement. What other qualifications for the billet isn't on your units PAL? I can remember a time the PAL was reviewed by the OIC/CO to ensure its correctness, after all, that is one document the assignment officers use to find you qualified individuals for your unit.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

I think it would be impossible to require someone to have a drivers license BEFORE they joined. Some grow up in areas where they don't need a vehicle and don't think twice about it. But, I wouldn't have a problem with having a requirement to get a license AFTER they join. They could have XX number of days/months to get it. That sounds reasonable enough to me.

[MKC Craig Thorngren (Ret)]

Though it isn't a requirement to enter the CG with a drivers license, at certain units it places an undue burden on the command. On Attu, two of our eight engineering watchstanders did not have a license (one never had one and one lost his due to a DUI). During inclimate weater someone had to drive them to inspect the transmitter building. They also weren't available to drive the big rigs for snow removal (and there is a lot of snow:D ).

Trying to change the PAL is a test of patience, or more like beating your head up against a wall. At the time EPM was the biggest blocking force. The reason given was that if they allowed this requirement to be placed on the PAL, then other units would do the same. Then they would have a complete class of personnel that weren't available for world wide assignment.

The young lad with the DUI should never have been assigned to us(Isolated/OCONUS), but since his previous command failed to document everything properly, and gave him a positive endorsement on his E-resume, EPM never knew he was ineligible...

I like Jeff's idea of training them, i.e. pay for them to go to a driving school. It's a simple solution and a great analogy.

Craig

[MKCM Brett Ayer]

I don't think you could or should require it. The member is limiting themself in their life.... but it is their life.


I don't know about should, but yes we could. We have similar requirements right now. We have Lawyers that have to be members of the Bar; we have MKs that must have their EPA cert to work on AC&R, etc. Requiring members to hold a civilian certification is not new.

Now the should part is a little more complicated. I don’t believe it should be a prerequisite for enlistment. I’ve served with many good Coasties from NY City that never drove a car in their life, doesn’t mean they couldn’t learn, just that never needed to.

After we have them, I don’t see why we can’t require it for a specific billet just like we do with all other qualifications. As long as you can tie it to a job requirement, I have no problem.

However, if the only reason is for the member to commute back and forth to work, then it should not be a requirement. If a member does not have a license, they can take a cab, walk, ride a bike, or whatever. The excuse that housing it to far away doesn’t cut it with me. Commuting is the member’s responsibility.

In the above case I would (and have) do everything I could to assist the member in obtaining a license on their own, but if it’s not a valid job requirement, it’s ultimately up to them.

Be Safe.

Brett

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

He is married with 1 child and another on the way, neither him nor his wife has a driver's license.

Unbelieveable... how does he get to/from work? Food for his family? the list goes on & on.... but why bother

Wray... :cool:

[ETC Ben DiGuilio]

I don't have any quarters at my LORSTA everything is 30 miles away.
It is stated in our welcome aboard message that both a valid drivers license and a reliable auto is needed. I don't know if I could prevent someone from coming but it would certainly place a large burden on the station.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Being elgible to get a DL could be a condition of employment. What if no one checks and it is because of a legal reason, ie person was heavy on the foot and lost thier DL due to too many tickets.

I agree with Brett, there is not a town in this country they can't get a cab ride. If a person is adult enough to join, then the only condition of employment is them getting to work, themselves. If it is in the unit or CG JQR/PQS that they have to be a duty driver or drive with a trailer, they need to get a DL. If they dont, send back to thier home of record.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Okay, I'll ask again...... what are you going to do it someone loses their license? Someone served for 18 years and gets pulled over, has too many tickets and loses their license. Are you prepared to end their career?

[BMCS Burt Ford]

If thier job requires a DL, possibly. EPO, I would consider it even more so. Is it responsible behavior for a person with 18 years in to loose thier driving priviledges? But it is all moot, anyone with more than 8 years has a discharge board.

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

I agree with Brett, there is not a town in this country they can't get a cab ride.

That is a false statement. I know of many towns where there is no cab service. Where I'm at right now doesn't have a cab service.

Tell EPM to stick it. If it's a requirement of the billet, it should be on the PAL, to do anything less is assinine. The reason they don't want it on the PAL because it would be tougher for the assignment officers to fill the billet. I'm sure the manual relating to the PAL will back you up.

Yes, making changes can be long and drawn out, because both the ADCON and OPCON have an opinion. That's why you provide OPCON and above with advance copies.

[BMC Russell Miller]

We've got BM's that have never driven a boat before, so we train them as a condition of employment. We get FN's that have never turned wrenches before, so we train them as a condition of employment. Why can't the CG provide drivers training, i.e. supply a vehicle, and pay for classes so a member can get a license, as a condition of emplyment?

If you think they are going to pay for someone to get a DL it would come out of unit funds We can not get them to foot the bill for a Manditory Motorcycle Safety Course also.

[BMC Russell Miller]

Okay, I'll ask again...... what are you going to do it someone loses their license? Someone served for 18 years and gets pulled over, has too many tickets and loses their license. Are you prepared to end their career?

That a good question Master Chief, if he/she has 18 years of service that would make them between 35-45 years old, they might even be the XPO or EPO of the unit. Discharged from the Coast Guard no, relieved of their job yes. I would also recommend they read the Motor Vehicle Manual, have them take the GSA on-line Defense driving Course and hopefully they can apply for and get a Temp DL that allows them to drive back and forth to work only. If they hold a OPS/AEPO job I would work with the detailer to have them replaced. I have had a member we had to cart around due to a problem with his DL and we got him transferred. Plus I would call other OIC to get thier take on the matter.

[MKC Craig Thorngren (Ret)]

Okay, I'll ask again...... what are you going to do it someone loses their license? Someone served for 18 years and gets pulled over, has too many tickets and loses their license. Are you prepared to end their career?

Stu,
I don't think anyone would be willing to end someones career because of speeding... However, if the current billet they are in requires them to have a DL and they lose it or if they are assigned and don't have one, they should be reassigned. If they lost their DL do to tickets or a DUI etc... we have the UCMJ to take care of the disciplinary issue, but the command is still short changed because getting a DL added to a billet control number or PAL is almost impossible.
Look at how long and drawn out our assignment process is now; Gold/Silver Badge assignment, OinC, XPO, EPO and now those that have a DL. It would only get more complicated if we required any of those personnel to have a DL. To me the issue is who decides what billets require a DL. As Burt pointed out, the EPO should, and others will have a different take on it. Who decides...

Craig

[BMCS J Lucas]

If you think they are going to pay for someone to get a DL it would come out of unit funds We can not get them to foot the bill for a Manditory Motorcycle Safety Course also.

I don't know of a job in the CG where a motorcycle would be a condition of employment. But if driving a vehicle is considered a condition of employment at a unit, than I think we should train the member.

OK, this may be a stretch, but might be good fodder for discussion. A member requests to be the Comd'ts driver, but doesn't have a DL. Would it be discrimination to deny that person the opportunity because they don't have a DL, or is the CG obligated to train that person to perform that job? Or what about a Coastie who wants to work at Kodiak PD which does vehicle patrol/response (i assume, i've never been there), but doesn't have a DL. Do you deny them that position, or do you train them to perform the job?

[BMCS Burt Ford]

That is a false statement. I know of many towns where there is no cab service. Where I'm at right now doesn't have a cab service.

What town is that Joe and what CG unit is there?

I was at Milford Haven VA, no cab service in the phone book but you could get one from yorktown. I would cost you plenty but the option was there.

[MKCM Brett Ayer]

Okay, I'll ask again...... what are you going to do it someone loses their license? Someone served for 18 years and gets pulled over, has too many tickets and loses their license. Are you prepared to end their career?

The answer is that depends. What would you do with a BM1 that could not qualify as DWO. They qualified as a Coxswain at their last unit, but they can not qualify DWO?

What would you do with an MK at the MSRT that could not qualify with the weapons, or the SN at your unit that had his boat crew quals pulled and has no chance of getting them back?

If it's a valid job requirement, and they can't meet the standard, they are ether reassigned or released from active duty.

What you do with the member is not the issue, we have policies to deal with that. The issue is, can it be a job requirement and the answer is yes. The should part is very dependant on the job they are assigned to.

Be Safe

Brett

[MKCM Brett Ayer]

What town is that Joe and what CG unit is there?

I was at Milford Haven VA, no cab service in the phone book but you could get one from yorktown. I would cost you plenty but the option was there.

I will admit that cab service is not always an option (well a practical one anyways) but, a cab is just one choice.

It is interesting that we have only had cars for the last hundred years, but people have been going to and from work for at least the last couple of thousand years. Humm, makes you think.

There have been points in my career where I didn't have a vehicle available, but I still made it to work. Going to work is something everyone has to do, in the Coast Guard and out. If a member without a drivers license can’t figure out how to get back and forth to work, maybe they should consider a new career in telemarketing, or news paper delivery, I still have my red wagon if anyone needs it.

Be Safe.

Brett

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Regardless if cab service is available or not, are you guys all forgetting the cost of it? How could an E-4 or so afford to go everywhere, using a cab? It is just not realistic.

Wray... :cool:

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

Burt,

Since you asked ... there is no CG unit where I'm currently located, however,

Lorsta Boise City - nearest town [Felt] 9 mi, no cab service. Next town [Boise City], 30 mi, no cab service. Keyes, OK ... no cab service. Griggs, OK ... no cab service.

Lorsta Dana - nearest town [Dana], no cab service.

Lorsta Nantucket - nearest town S'conset ... no cab service in 1988. Town of Nantucket ... cab service.

Lorsta Sellia Marina - nearest town, Simeri Crichi, no cab service.

I don't recall seeing cab service in Texline TX, Hooker OK, or a host of other small towns I've been to.

Is there cab service in Sallisaw, OK? I don't recall seeing a cab on the streets when I was there in Dec.

Statements like every town has a cab service is false. All it takes is one to disprove that statement.

If a drivers licence is a requirement for the billet, put it on the PAL. If EPM disagrees ... prove to them why it's required. Very few units have government housing at the unit. D2, when I took the visitors to lunch, on the drive to lunch [30 minutes minimum], recommended that we should let the duty person have home-to-work use of the government vehicle. Naturally when I requested it, D2 approved the request.

Calling cab service from their point of origin to get to work is setting a young non-rate or young PO up for trouble. You might as well write the indebtiness stuff up as soon as they report aboard.

[CMC Bruce Bradley]

Calling cab service from their point of origin to get to work is setting a young non-rate or young PO up for trouble. You might as well write the indebtiness stuff up as soon as they report aboard.

Ain't that the truth...and when we start writing them up it's gonna lead to being discharged more than likely. Although we will agrue if having a DL is a condition of employment....from your statement above it might end up being a contributing condition for unemployment. Kind of that vicious circle thing.

And no Nick I'm not going to get into the mess I had with numerous members of my last CPB not having DLs. And happy 500 to me.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Brett, with your DWO and other examples, you're already talking about requirements for the job. The original question talked about making it a requirement to have a DL. Other than the COMDT's driver example, I haven't seen one where you need to have a DL as part of your job. Why make it a requirement?
I've served at units where people didn't have a DL. I've served with people who had a DL and no vehicle. I served with some people who had a DL and were never allowed to drive the GV and no one in their right mind ever rode with them in a vehicle twice.

Craig, it's kinda interesting that you'd pull the trigger on the DUI, but look the other way with the speeding. As far as re-assigning people..... you can't see that blowing up in our face? You have someone assigned to a billet they don't want, they lose their DL and get stationed at the large metro area they were looking for in the first place. People that don't want to leave large metro areas never get a license. People that want a large metro area are told those billets aren't available because we reserve them for the people withoput DLs so they need to submit E-resumes that have only rural areas.

With the COMDT's driver example..... he wouldn't get a Command Recommendation. But what kind of person is asking for a job they aren't qualified to fill? They probably have a civil lawyer on speed dial somewhere.

Edited to add after Bruce's post....... I was stationed on two different cutters in Bayonne. At that time all of our single guys lived on Staten Island. We got lots of people without a DL and even more without a car. Add in a $6.00 daily bridge toll.

[BMCS J Lucas]

So how about the inner-city kid who has no DL, goes to a PB out of boot and wants to do the LE thing. After the PB, he puts in for Kodiak CG PD. Will he be denied that billet because he has no DL, and it requires road patrol and emergency response?

I just think we spend alot of money on frivilous things, usually right before Sept 30th. Why can't we, even if it's just for no other reason than helping a kid grow, supply a GV and/or pay for drivers training if they need it, or if it will help them in their current position? They will then have that skill for the rest of their lives. Isn't that what we're kind of all about? Well, until they turn about 70, then it's down hill from there. :)

What about tuition assistance? Can that be used for drivers training through an accredited school?

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

How many people are you talking about that don't have a drivers license? I probably had 2 during my entire career.... If they didn't have a license they usually rode with a shipmate if they wanted to go somewhere...

I just can't believe this is a terribly big issue, CG wide.

Wray... :cool:

[BMCS J Lucas]

I think we are having two seperate conversations here that folks are getting mixed up. Some are talking about having a DL to do the job at work. Others are talking about members GETTING to work. I think the original poster was concerned about having a DL to do the job AT WORK, and that is what my examples are addressing.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Jeff, how much do you think it would cost that origional poster to just get to & from work per week? Without putting a dollar amount on it, do you honestly think he/she could afford to do it?

That's the point...

Wray... :cool:

[BMCS J Lucas]

Jeff, how much do you think it would cost that origional poster to just get to & from work per week? Without putting a dollar amount on it, do you honestly think he/she could afford to do it?

Wray... :cool:

Depends if their vehicle is diesel or not. That stuff is up to $4 a gallon here in MN. That's just crazy!! A less refined fuel is nearly a dollar more that unleaded. I don't get it.

My wife's cousin works up on the north slope in AK for one of the big petrolium companies. He does the heated diesel fuel flushing on one of the oil rigs up there. He told me that the company charges itself what it costs to make the diesel. Want to take a guess on how much per gallon that is??

$0.11 per gallon.

I'm in the wrong buisness.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

All good points Joe. My apologies for unjustly accusing all towns of having a cab service. I was trying to make a point about coming to work, not say everyone should take a cab. There are many choices on how to get to work, bike would be great for anybody.

Remember though most units have barracks and/or duty rooms so that memebr can stay there if unable to get a ride. Also, at all those LORSTAs and other units, even with a DL, you can't force them to buy a car so we still have a problem because if we force that non-rate into buying a car, or taking a cab, he still going to be in debt.

[HSC Chris Fly]

Here's another facet....

How many members have (or had) a DL and either don't tell the unit about them having one because they don't want the extra duty (duty driver, etc) or they don't tell the unit their license is suspended because of a DUI. speeding, etc?

I'm suspect of any in the CG telling me they don't have a DL....either they don't have it because they got in trouble or they're lying....

As far as requiring it....YES we should. Every unit has at least one GV, what happens when a member needs a ride to the ER because they're hurt? There are so many facets of the CG that requires a DL. As far as the 18 year CPO that gets his supended for a DUI (or ??)...they get their quals that require it pulled and can't advance until they are eligible again.

Chris

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

How many members have (or had) a DL and either don't tell the unit about them having one because they don't want the extra duty (duty driver, etc) or they don't tell the unit their license is suspended because of a DUI. speeding, etc?

I think at every place I have been you usually can tell, if people drive to work. Even when at large places such as Yorktown you knew who drove what car... Of course there was never the need to ask to see their DL.

Is this really a big issue these days?

Wray... :cool:

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Verifying DL is required at every MLC Compliance inspection. I know I got gigged for it during my last one.

[ETC Pat Kaschube]

I think at every place I have been you usually can tell, if people drive to work. Even when at large places such as Yorktown you knew who drove what car... Of course there was never the need to ask to see their DL.

Is this really a big issue these days?

Wray... :cool:

Apparently so though I am suprised. In 20 years I've never seen it be an issue. I guess the fact of the matter is what policy do you follow if you have a 1 in 3 duty driver rotation and a replacement doesn't have a DL? What would I do if I had a memeber show up to my ESD who didn't have a DL? I would probably put him on a stricter duty rotation while he worked to get his DL. And yes I would expect him to get a DL. Can't respond to a call if you can't drive.

[BMC Russell Miller]

OK, this may be a stretch, but might be good fodder for discussion. A member requests to be the Comd'ts driver, but doesn't have a DL. Would it be discrimination to deny that person the opportunity because they don't have a DL, or is the CG obligated to train that person to perform that job? Or what about a Coastie who wants to work at Kodiak PD which does vehicle patrol/response (i assume, i've never been there), but doesn't have a DL. Do you deny them that position, or do you train them to perform the job?[/QUOTE]

Read the manuals, in order to drive a GV you must have a vaild DL. So no they would not be able to do the jobs.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

OK, this may be a stretch, but might be good fodder for discussion. A member requests to be the Comd'ts driver, but doesn't have a DL. Would it be discrimination to deny that person the opportunity because they don't have a DL


I'm sure a prerequisite is to have a good driving record.. If you don't have a license, you have no record....you are not qualified... The CG has no obligation to train an individual for that position...

Wray... :cool:

[BMCS Nick Pupo]

Or how about this.
Your cutter is in the yards, with no "hotel services". But everyday, you as OIC want colors raised and lowered, you dont want the National Ensign flying from the Mast with a light shining on it. So it's the duty stander's few responsibilities to go the the yard at Sunset and bring down colors.
If that watchstander does not have a drivers license what decision would you make?

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Nick, do you have POVs in the Yard? If the only vehicle available is a GV and the member doesn't have a DL, someone's going to have to suck it up. You could always accept that someone who doesn't want to drive has already resigned themselves to walking alot...... how far away is the hotel?

[BMCS Nick Pupo]

Stu, nope no POV and also no GV. MLC rented us two mini-vans. And sucking it up is exactly what is going to happen. But that doesn't boad well to the people who either have to pick up the slack or drive those watchstanders over to the ship every night. The yard is about 6 miles up I95 from the hotel.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

With a rental car.... I'm surprised that they didn't tell you that they didn't want anyone under 25 driving.
I'm still going with six miles.... walking distance. It's also the members responsibility to deal with. We cover these things in the EER..... Responsibility, Working with Others, Loyalty, even with seeking out new ways to accomplish assigned tasks....... Their inability or unwillingness to get a DL doesn't excuse them from getting their job done. They need to work on getting one, or improving their networking and social skills.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Stu, Military on orders can be 18 and rent a car. At least that is what I read on the bottom of this rental contract on my desk.

[BMCS Nick Pupo]

We covered that when we picked up the vehicles. But I guess they cant get a hotel room, just ask Bruce.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Thats the dang truth TWB!

[BMCS Ian McVicker]

Or how about this.
Your cutter is in the yards, with no "hotel services". But everyday, you as OIC want colors raised and lowered, you dont want the National Ensign flying from the Mast with a light shining on it. So it's the duty stander's few responsibilities to go the the yard at Sunset and bring down colors.
If that watchstander does not have a drivers license what decision would you make?

Here's an idea...You could work with the situation, be a little flexible, lighten up a bit, and just fly it from the mast;)

Your to squared away man...You should have been Top Conn.

[BMCS Nick Pupo]

I am already going to do that when we get the deck blasted. We just have to find a light to keep it lit throughout the night.

[CMC Bruce Bradley]

That's why yard contracts require the contractor to provide berthing onsite for watchstanders. It's one of the base requirements under port services. If the cutter isn't livable they use the other berthing, which also needs all hotel services, except the "special" movie channels.

[BMCS Nick Pupo]

Bruce, I would agree, however. With the changes in the way the CG sets up Port Services, it falls under a completely different contract. In our case the CG awarded the contract to Global Event Mangements. In that there is no mention of any berthing on site, thats the down side. The plus side, 6 different restaurants to choose from.

[CMC Bruce Bradley]

Nick, look in the basic services section of the contract specs. In the same place that it call for heads, showers, phones and the like. There is a requirement (or at least there was the time I did a dry-dock) for those services to be provided on site as temp services.

[BMC Russell Miller]

I am already going to do that when we get the deck blasted. We just have to find a light to keep it lit throughout the night.

Hmmm Sounds like a good job for the guy who does not have a DL.

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

Okay, I'll ask again...... what are you going to do it someone loses their license? Someone served for 18 years and gets pulled over, has too many tickets and loses their license. Are you prepared to end their career?

Just got back from a few days away and haven't read this entire thread so maybe I am reiterating what has already been said, but here is my thoughts...

First, We end people's careers because they have gained to much weight. Why not end someones career that can't follow the law of the land? That is a lesson that they should know by the time they have 18 years in. It takes more than a few tickets to lose a license.

I think it should be a requirement to graduate from boot camp. If someone does not have a license when the enter service, they can be on the 9 or 10 week plan while they learn to drive. We teach kids to talk on the sound powered phone at boot camp and then send them to stations... Why not make them learn to operate a vehicle before sending them out into the world? Seems like a "needs of the service" thing to me. At least set folks up for success is some small area. That is at least one thing that they will likely use the rest of their life.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

Why not end someones career that can't follow the law of the land?

"law of the land - a phrase used in the Magna Carta to refer to the then established law of the kingdom (as distinct from Roman or civil law); today it refers to fundamental principles of justice commensurate with due process; "the United States Constitution declares itself to be `the supreme law of the land'"

"Law of the Land" -- Care to rephrase that? I do not know of any "law" for ANYONE, ANYWHERE to get a drivers License..

I'd rethink that "Voice of Reason" stuff.....

Wray... :cool:

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Reread it Wray. He is referring to someone loosing their privledge to drive by not following the law of the land, not a law making someone get a DL.

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

OOps... how right you are... Sorry Jim, my mistake... reading fast, trying to do too many things at once... Burt, thanks for pointing that out....

I do agree, if you can't keep your license you must have a serious problem... Anyone in that boat needs to be looked at....

Once again, sorry....

Wray... :cool:

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

No worrys here Wray. You may need to slow down a bit though. You are supposed to be retired and setting a better example for us that are looking at you lifestyle and thinking... Hmmmmm... Road King... Long trips...

As far as the VOR stuff... That is someone elses doing. I thought I would have lost it long ago after some of my more "opinionated" posts.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

No Jim, I still think you're a voice of reason..... I chalk some of your more "opinionated" posts up to self sabatoge..... but alas, some images just can't be tarnished.