Enforcing uniform standards

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

This is getting so bad they actually released an ALCOAST to address it. Let's all try to enforce it on an installation near you...

THE BASIC RIGGERS BELT (NSN: 8415-01-526-5551), ALSO KNOWN AS THE BATTLE DRESS UNIFORM (BDU) BELT, CAN BE PURCHASED THRU THE UDC AND MAY BE WORN AS AN OPTIONAL ITEM ON THE ODU. THIS BELT IS A 1
3/4 INCH BLACK NYLON BELT.... THE "BLACK HAWK" RIGGERS BELT IS NOT AUTHORIZED FOR GENERAL WEAR, BUT MAY BE WORN AS ORGANIZATIONAL EQUIPMENT DURING TACTICAL MISSIONS."

Get the word out.

[MKCM Brett Ayer]

This is getting so bad they actually released an ALCOAST to address it. Let's all try to enforce it on an installation near you....

There is also seems to be a problem with people not understanding that one size does not fit all, and the end needs to be trimmed to length. If I see another one wrapped half way around someones backside......

Be Safe,

Brett

[HSC Chris Fly]

One of our problems here was Station/MSST/Taclet (and some others) thought they were "tacticle" 24/7 and could weat the blackhawk belt even when not in an "operational" mode. We have eventually got it pretty much under control.

One question- Is this a new alcoast or the one that came out late last spring? If it's not a new one, why is it taking this long to start enforcing?

Chris

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

I can't tell you how many E-7's and above I had to continually tell had the wrong size insignia on their ball cap... They ARE supposed to have the same size a collar device... Most want the next larger size...

Guess they have an inferiority complex... ;)

Wray... :cool:

[AMTCM John Long]

There is also seems to be a problem with people not understanding that one size does not fit all, and the end needs to be trimmed to length. If I see another one wrapped half way around someones backside......

Be Safe,

Brett

Hey Brett,

I think there's a reason you see folks do that. Here's what I see as an improvement on that. Either have the end of the belt go _____" (pick a distance) past the first belt loop or reduce the current distance (pick one) the end protrudes thru the buckle. I'll use myself as an example. After a period of usage, the end of the belt tends to fall away from the body and doesn't look too sharp. I have noticed this on other folks too. I have also noticed folks who only extend approx 1" past the buckle so as to avoid the end protruding out.

Under the current policy, the fix is:

1. Buy a new belt that still has some stiffness to it

2. Come up with some way to keep the bitter end of the belt flush to the body

3. Fix the current policy

I submitted this to the last Uniform Board and will do so again when the next Board forms up.

I'm surprised this wasn't caught on the initial intro of the ODU.

My personal preference is to have a longer belt vs a shorter one. The use of the belt in the Blackthorn mishap is why I have that view. There could be a future situation where someone might have a use for the belt again. In an emergency, I'd rather have a little extra belt to work with.



John

[MKC Chad L. Royer]

When the new untucked version of the ODU is released you won't be able to see what belt they are wearing or how much is past the buckle. Unless someone is walking around without the blouse.

[MSTCS Jerald P. Motyka]

Master Chief Long, there is a problem with your post... the length of the "dangle" has already been addressed. They have steadfastly held to "2-4 inches in length" as the appropriate bitter end length, even with the rigger's belt.

And I remember this coming out last spring. Why the re-release of this info, are we that lax in keeping things standard?

[BMCS Nick Pupo]

The way I understand it, beside the length of the overlap, it says that the bitter end should be hidden under the first loop?
If not maybe that's what it should read.

While we're on the subject or not really, let me throw this out.
How many Chief's do you think put in for another Service's Senior Enlisted Academy because they know that if they attend the CG CPO Academy they would be sent home because of weight. Just throwing that out...
And here's what I mean.
A person gets weighed at the CPO Academy and gets sent back to their unit, but that same person could attend another Academy and pass with flying colors.
I say no accontability or again set standard.
Thoughts

[BMCM Deane Smith]

While we're on the subject or not really, let me throw this out.
How many Chief's do you think put in for another Service's Senior Enlisted Academy because they know that if they attend the CG CPO Academy they would be sent home because of weight. Just throwing that out...
And here's what I mean.
A person gets weighed at the CPO Academy and gets sent back to their unit, but that same person could attend another Academy and pass with flying colors.
I say no accontability or again set standard.
Thoughts

Nick...that's an interesting question. In my mind, I find your scenario unlikely...but. In a perfect CG, an overweight member wouldn't get on the plane because their command should weigh them prior to leaving...but.

Jerald...what do our Chiefs look like that are attending the AFSNCOA? Could Nick be on to something?

[CMC Isherwood]

For every Chief from a PACAREA (ATU21) unit that has chosen to attend a sister service CPOACAD equivalent I receive a phone call from MSTCM Diane LaCumsky. During that phone call Diane asks me to personally verify the Chief's MAW measurements with that Chief's CoC.

I can't even imagine (well maybe I can :D ) the fallout for embarrassing the CG by being sent back to your unit from another service’s course.

The statement in the ALCOAST regarding hiding/tucking the bitter end of the belt under the first belt loop was crafted specifically for the issues AMTCM Long raised

[BMCS Nick Pupo]

Master Chief, knowing you but only from your posts on here and two previous meetings. I believe you do do that. So my question is this how do you do it personnaly? Do you travel to the Chief's unit upon receipt of orders, or do you issue "marching orders" to the specific Silver/Gold Badge at that particular unit?

I have to say that if we as a service are sending people back from the CG Chief's Academy. Then to me it would be logical to think that some Chief's attending another Senior Enlisted Academy fall through the cracks or go knowing, that they can fly under the radar.

[ETC Joe Jester ret]

For every Chief from a PACAREA (ATU21) unit that has chosen to attend a sister service CPOACAD equivalent I receive a phone call from MSTCM Diane LaCumsky. During that phone call Diane asks me to personally verify the Chief's MAW measurements with that Chief's CoC.

Kevin,

Why get you involved for such a trivial thing? If the CPO is above MAW, then a letter to their CO's supervisor is in order recommending lower evaluations for that CO in specific areas, and tax those units with the expended travel charges consumed unnecessarily.

Just have some more CPOs at the ready to fly out to fill the class. It might delay the class a couple of days, but the point would be made with a large exclaimation point.

One RFC for "loss of confidence" would send a shockwave throughout the remaining commands to enforce the standards.

Drastic measures? Certainly. Will it change attitudes? Definately.

Will it every reach that point in reality ... nope. You'll just continue to be engaged in the process, consuming time that you could be doing something else.

[AMTCM John Long]

The statement in the ALCOAST regarding hiding/tucking the bitter end of the belt under the first belt loop was crafted specifically for the issues AMTCM Long raised

Outstanding!!!

Sounds like I need to go back and re-read the ALCOAST. I must have missed that!:o

[AMTCM John Long]

Outstanding!!!

Sounds like I need to go back and re-read the ALCOAST. I must have missed that!:o


Ok.....I went back and re-read ALCOAST 427/07 (Para H & I). The Riggers Belt goes to the first belt loop. The standard belt is still at 2"-4"

ALCOAST 056/08 did not address the belt issue.

I did not see any other ODU guidance messages.

John

[BMC Tim Woody]

Greetings,

The issue of MAW standards at the CPOA and within the service has been an ongoing issue. I think what is more embarrassing than an individual being sent home for exceeding the standards was watching fellow Chiefs take 20 to 40 minutes to "walk" the mile and a half run the first day at Chief's Academy. When are we as a service going to start tightening our PT standards for everyone? Maybe this deserves another thread. Thanks

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

REMINDER REMINDER REMINDER REMINDER

CPOA = Chief Petty Officer Association......

Tim, Is that what you really meant?

Wray... :cool:

[BMC Tim Woody]

Wray,

CPO Academy. Sorry for the confusion.

[MSTCS Jerald P. Motyka]

Master Chief Slesh, may I just say I am saddened that all Gold Badges aren't as anal as MCPO Isherwood.

I just left a post on the MAW/PT thread about this, but it bears repeating.

In just three classes where I've done screening (only two counted), I have disqualified more than 15 for being over their MAWs and/or BF%. I had one applicant that was at his MAW (exactly), but his BF was over 31%... and his command gave him a glowing endorsement. He was SIX percent over his max body fat percentage, and his command thought he was a good representative of the Coast Guard.

Luckily, none of the people I have disqualified have made it through the screening process to get orders... which would require flag notification.

Then, after I get through the poundage issues, then I get to the physical fitness stuff... lemme say that I am nauseated by the responses I've received.

The class that just graduated from the SNCOA was the largest contingent the Academy has ever seen - and they did phreaking spectacularly. Of the 14 people attending, I had almost the same amount tell me - point blank - when I did phone interviews, that they couldn't do the required PT or they WOULDN'T do the required PT to attend.

The program starts with a PT test to put people in appropriate run-time groups, starts with a 20 minute run (the slow group does about 1.5 miles in this time, the fast group about 2.5 miles), and 12 PT sessions later ends with a 40 minute run (the slow group does about 3.5 miles, fast group about 6.5 miles).

And I had about a dozen people tell me that even the slow group was either too much for them to physically handle, or too much for them to emotionally handle.

When I got this job as Coast Guard liaison, I was a phreaking couch potato - and I haven't had a problem either keeping up or improving myself. If _I_ can do it, it blows me away that other people aren't willing to do it. Even for something as important as a service academy. Why apply when the solicitation message says there is a strong PT program in effect.

Now all I have to do is get my waist measurement down so I can pass the darned PT test...

[MSTC Andrew Grow]

Just to throw another wrench into the mix...

I wear the riggers belt. I trimmed it to fit under the first loop on my pants.

Problem is, the first loop isn't in the same place on all pairs of my pants.

Two pairs are perfect. The other two (my newest ones) the loop is to my left side enough that the loop can't hide under them.

Not sure if I'm the only one - I'd find that hard to believe - but again, lack of uniform consistency rears it's ugly head.

[BMCS J Lucas]

Just to throw another wrench into the mix...

I wear the riggers belt. I trimmed it to fit under the first loop on my pants.

Problem is, the first loop isn't in the same place on all pairs of my pants.

Two pairs are perfect. The other two (my newest ones) the loop is to my left side enough that the loop can't hide under them.

Not sure if I'm the only one - I'd find that hard to believe - but again, lack of uniform consistency rears it's ugly head.

Two words?? Low Bid.

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

I like one word better... Untucked.

[HSC Chris Fly]

2 words on that-
Looks sloppy......not as neat as tucked in

[BMCS Eric Guerette]

The untucked looks no more sloppy than a half tucked in, bottom button showing, faded, pen hanging out of the pocket, collar curling under, blouse worn by someone over their MAW. When worn and fitted right it looks good, just like the tucked.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

The untucked version I saw in person looked pretty squared away. Like Eric said, it's all on the individual putting it on.

[BMCS T. D. Ellis]

The untucked version I saw in person looked pretty squared away. Like Eric said, it's all on the individual putting it on.

Let me guess. Were his initials T H A D A L L E N? Admiral to his friends.

[MSTCS Jerald P. Motyka]

May I trod on sensitive grounds for a moment?

Admiral Allen is a big boy. As a guy that's battled the bulge my whole life, I would be truly amazed if the Admiral was over his BF%, but he is still a big guy. My experience in fighting Dunlop's disease has made me sensitive to the plight of fatties - and if I can maintain the standards, everyone should. In my opinion, the Admiral is within standards (by quite a bit!)

And in my personal opinion, the untucked ODU's he wears look phreaking cool. They look professional and don't make him look like 10 lbs of crap stuffed in a 5 lb sack.

If he WAS fat, it would look like crap... the blouse would look like a maternity top, all tented out in front from the hangover. It doesn't.

(Disclaimer: I'm not sucking up - he can't do anything for me. To be honest, so long as I don't break any laws, the worst he can do is make me retire. I just call 'em as I see 'em. If I thunk he was fat, I'd make the accusation. I don't.)

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

I for one hope that "appearance" is not a prerequisite for COMDT. I couldn't give an ounce of crap what the COMDT looks like. I care about his leadership and management. But then again, that is my OPINION.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Let me guess. Were his initials T H A D A L L E N? Admiral to his friends.

Close...it was MCPOCG Bowen.

[BMCS Eric Guerette]

We have been testing the untucked for months now. In my opinion, it is harder to look like crap in the untucked, and it is more comfortable.

[BMCS J Lucas]

We have been testing the untucked for months now. In my opinion, it is harder to look like crap in the untucked, and it is more comfortable.

I am on the other end of the scale, pun intended, of Jerald. I couldn't gain a pound if I ate out at Mickey D's for a week. How does the untucked look on us svelt folks? I'm thinking that if fatties, as Jerald put it, look good in the untucked the way they must be cut, then us svelt ones must look like we're wearing a tent.

[BMCS Eric Guerette]

The uniform folks have been working hard to get the sizes adjusted for us. We do have some thin people testing it and they look good. We are going to have to make sure that people are buying the right size, not only for girth but for length. It will take some getting used to. The biggest issue is someone with long arms and a short torso, in order to get the bottom of the shirt to fall in the right place; you would need to order a short instead of a regular but then the sleeves end up a little short. Most of us never wear the sleeves down so it doesn't matter much.

[BMCS J Lucas]

Most of us never wear the sleeves down so it doesn't matter much.

Except for those of us in D9 and northern D8.

[HSC Chris Fly]

Hey, I keep my sleeves down in San Diego at this time of year....:)

[BMCS J Lucas]

Hey, I keep my sleeves down in San Diego at this time of year....:)

Good idea.

[MKC Art Bailly (ret)]

Not many of us in D-17 wear them rolled up either. especially during the winter months.