Aldebaran II

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Well we are finally up and running. We used it for the first time today and I have to say that I'm impressed. I realize that lots of other people worked out the kinks before it got to us,.....but we have all the benefits without the pains.
The system is much cleaner/crisper than Capns program. The AIS overlay is an incredible advantage. The defaults buttons for marking aids, zoom in/out, switching from day/night.........
The on screen mile marker display.....
Everything you need to know is right there on one screen.

I think after we make a couple of trips with it, we'll wonder how we ever did business without it.

[BMCM Ross Fowle]

Stu,
I am unfamiliar with Aldebaran. Is it a commercial product or CG designed? I knew the CG was working on a fleetwide replacement for the various programs currently in use, but I didn't think it would be out for awhile.

[MSTC Steve Natale]

Please explain more.. This is the first I have heard of "Aldebaran II".

although we did have a F/V Aldebaran run anground and sink last week.

[BMCM Ian McVicker]

Aldebaran II is a navigation system designed for use for the Inland River Tenders, and is also installed on two 64' ANB's. Most of the river units were using Capt Program on a laptop, and some didn't even have that. This project has been worked on for quite a while by HQ, C2CEN, and D8 to provide a standard charting system for the river fleet. I believe most use S-57 charts from the ACOE, but the system can use several different charting sources.

The system is much more accurate, better functions (but requires more user interaction then Capt), can be hooked to the depth sounder to record bottom contour, and comes with AIS overlay on the chart. Compared to what the tenders have been doing in the past, this is pretty state of the art. One of the nice things is we can download our charts straight from an ACOE web-site, save them to a flash drive, and then download onto the laptop. After we have our buoy marks and such saved on the chart, we can upload the entire chart including marks back to the ACOE, where any of the boats can access it. If one of the tenders is going to transit through others areas, they can download these charts and marks right to their laptop. The commercial mariners will have access to them as well. Won't do much for the folks on the Lower Mississippi due to changing stages, but the pool water folks should have good info most of the time.

The original version was installed on the boats, and as with anything else there was a lot of bugs. It looks like they have those taken care of, and are reinstalling the system. I have heard mixed reviews from the units, and I believe a couple of units are still trying to get charts for the system, and takes some getting used to if you have run Capt for a long time.

I haven't had a chance to see the AIS overlay yet, because they did not install it on the 64' yet, but Stu seems to like it a lot.

[BMCM Ian McVicker]

Stu,
I am unfamiliar with Aldebaran. Is it a commercial product or CG designed? I knew the CG was working on a fleetwide replacement for the various programs currently in use, but I didn't think it would be out for awhile.

It's a commercial product Ross. The CG gave them the parameters and list of our needs, and ICAN designed the system. They designed the prototype that was tested on a handfull of Tenders for over a year, and then the first version was installed on all the units earlier this year.

[CWO Eugene Diotalevi (BMC)]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2065/1600461219_d4277cfefb.jpg?v=0

[CWO Eugene Diotalevi (BMC)]

More A2 slides.

[CWO Eugene Diotalevi (BMC)]

A2 slides.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Ian, thanks for responding, I had connectivity issues last night.

With the AIS overlay............
Remember back when you had to listen to the radio and then guess what the vessel trying to hail you was called? Remember looking up at the fleeting area through binos and and wondering which vessel was which?

The AIS we were using listed the three closest contacts. The Aldebaran II list all of them within range. It also shows their location, which direction they're traveling, and their speed. It acquires them automatically, lists CPA, and can show you where on the river you'll meet if you both mantain speed.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Are they "really" up-to-date Stu? Are all the dikes on there? If not do you have the ability to add them?

Looks nicer than the captain and dang sure better than the grease pencils we used to use out there.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

They seem up to date. You can also add all kinds of markers on your own. We mark where we normally find shoals. We also mark all of our normal anchorages and stockpiles.

[BMC Chris Johnson]

The Capt'n program also allows for AIS overlays if your willing to buy the newest edition and not have it supported by ESU. We also purchased a touch screen monitor that made the Capt'n more user friendly.

[BMCM Ian McVicker]

Are they "really" up-to-date Stu? Are all the dikes on there? If not do you have the ability to add them?

Looks nicer than the captain and dang sure better than the grease pencils we used to use out there.

Yeah Burt, they are pretty up to date, but I can only speak for my area. Mine were pretty much new, and even have one for the Ouachita, which we didn't have before. I use the S-57 charts from the ACOE, and they update them pretty regularly. All of the dikes are on ours, but you have to look a little closer to see them. On the old Capt charts the dikes and revetment were bold black, and now they are a really light gray. If you know your area it's not a big deal, but if you were new you might have to look a little closer.

Roger that on the grease pencils. I remember working buoys on the lower Red with those and the old book. There's not a whole lot of room for error in there, just ask Mike. I think that barge still has the big dent in the b-hole.

[BMCM Ian McVicker]

Sorry for the double post.

The only three big complaints I've heard so far are:

1. No touch screen capability. ESU swears this program is not compatible with a touch screen. I still don't know if I buy that or not. What I can't believe is that it was tested in the field for over a year, with those units providing info to ICAN and C2CEN, and that item was missed???

2. Program takes more user interaction than Capt...I say yes and no. There are some functions that require a little more time, but they also have hot keys set up, (push the #1 and it sets a nun, push #0 and it sets a can). I think it is more the fact that the program is new, and I bet in a year nobody will know the difference. I don't know if you can make a default mark, like for when you have info attached to your marks like gages or dates.

3. I hear from the pool guys that they used to be able to create a work list for their buoys (mooring inspects) in Capt under the marks function, but do not have that same capability with Aldeberan. It looks like you have to find a way, (seperate speadsheet I guess) to track your work and inspects/switchout.

It also sounds like if you are running the corp charts, if they go out and do a channel survey, and upload an electronic copy to their web-site, you may be able to download it as an overlay to your chart. Now that would be a pretty useful function for us.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Ian...you're right about getting used to the new program. They installed the first version several months ago and then realized that it had too many bugs to work out. One of the big problems was that the computers that ran the Aldebaran program kept crashing (or freezing up) because they couldn't process all of the information. So, the CAPT program was put back into use.

When I was trained the first time on the Aldebaran, I noted that it does a lot more than we need it to. There are so many functions (bells and whistles) that we won't use. That doesn't make it a bad program, just more than what's needed for the WLR fleet. Overall, I liked the initial program and it is better than what we have. The ability to download/upload information from the internet or email attacheents will help when we are in someone elses AOR. Getting the ACOE info is a great resources also...once that's available it will be good. The commercial industry will also have access to the most current navigational information.

The days of grease pencils, radar ranges and fine-line fathometers are over and we're finally moving in the right direction fleet-wide.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Sounds like we are headed in the right direction.....finally.

I want to see it work, any of you got soem extra money around you can send so I can come see?

[BMCM Ian McVicker]

Are you going to come out to the district conf? Sweet talk uncle Steve, I'll bet he'll bring you out.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Good idea Ian. Whats his last name again? SEC UMR may not have the money.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Hadley right?

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Burt...that's the right name. The message came out, I'll forward it to you next week if you want it.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

please do deane.

Thanks!

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

With all the complaints coming in from the field, you knew it wouldn't be long before they looked at changing out the laptops. I'll be getting the new Panasonic Toughbook next week and will start running it.
The way I understand things, is the hard drive issues are going to be addressed first, and then they're going to look at upgrading our software needs.
I also think many of you will be getting the new laptops about 45 days laters. It's supposed to be 15" and the graphics blow the current laptop away.

Everyone going to St Louis should bring all of the problems they've encountered to that meeting. I'll make a list of the things that you were running into, and see if the new laptop has the same issues. I also plan on telling them all of the things that Aldebaran II is capable of doing that I don't think we'll ever need.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

We made our first trip with the panasonic toughbook. It's probably about ten timnes faster than the other system and has a bunch on new functions that we didn't have before. We created a default key for stray, and the system automatically numbers them for you. We mark them on the down bound and you can search on the way back up and it will tell you the distance to your next stray. The graphic are much clearer and we didn't experience any delays or freezing.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

We've run several trips with the new system. I was wondering if the other people that have used this think that we should really start looking at moving to virtual buoys and call it a day?
Don't you think with this system, we could replace the WLR fleet with an ANT and a boat? Something with a crew of 3 or 4 that could run the entire AOR in a day every other week and drop blibs on the screen every 1/4 mile?

[BMCM Deane Smith]

I don't think that would work for a lot of reasons. Taking the CG and the legal aspect out of it...the first thing you would have to do is get industry to buy off on using (and relying) on an electronic chart system for their navigation. Some tow-boaters don't even use an ECS and wouldn't want to start. There are also reliability of GPS issues in some of the areas that WLR's operate in. Your AOR is MUCH different than mine. I have 638 miles to cover, an ANT boat couldn't cover that area. A WLR is the most efficient means of covering it.

I doubt what your suggesting would ever happen. The thought of relying ONLY on an ECS is kind of a scary thought.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I'm not saying the Coast Guard wouldn't have a role, we could still be the ones setting those electronic buoys and checking the bottom. But we wouldn't need to replace all the metal, wire, chain, and cement. We could also replace units that have 15 people with units of 4 or 5. In areas that have 600 miles we could break it up into two areas. In pooled water areas we would need to run less. Make the ANT boat a 40 footer, it would be alot cheaper than keeping some of those WLRs running.

The mariners could be required to meet a standard. Requirements change for them all the time. I think some of them would rather have electronic aids that are updated instantly.

I just wonder where technology is taking us everytime I use that system.

[BMCM Ian McVicker]

Separate from the facts that it would put me out of a job, and do away with the best jobs we have in the CG...I still say no.

First, computers (especially laptops on a vessel) are hardly reliable 100% of the time. Someone has a computer freeze up, or crash on them and their day is over.

Second, they have to have strong and wide spread cell coverage to get regular updates of the NavAids for each of the AOR's, and we know this isn't the case. You regularly complain to me about cell coverage in your AOR, and there are places where it is worse.

Then of course you have the human error. The one time the coxswain driving that boat forgets to put a mark on the computer, because he was talking on the cell, and a couple of days later someone runs aground because they were following his flawed buoy marks.

I would still like to have those buoys out there, but I'm kind of bias.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Throw in reduced visibility or nighttime operations and having the buoys show up on radar is a necessary requirement.

[BMCM Ian McVicker]

Aldebaran II is a great program, and the equipment on the WLR's has definitely improved over the years, but we have to remember it's only a tool. I get real uncomfortable when we start relying on electronics only.

It wasn't even 6 years ago I was setting buoys on the rivers using a fine line, and marking the buoys on a plastic coated river chart with grease pencils. Some rivers are just now seeing their first electronic charts with the start up of Aldebaran II, and still working out the bugs. In some areas I still don't think they are as accurate as they could be.

I do think there is less need for all of the shore aids we have, which would cut back on the brushing.

I don't care what we give the river guys electronically, they are still going to want that radar and spot light. If we want to try this Virtual ATON stuff, let's get them Coastal folks to do it, out where the stuff is actually positioned. Lets leave the rivers alone.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Now Stu dont put me out of a job just yet.

Legally it would never happen. The industry would raise so much hell you butt would get warm from the heat. I think coastal would be a better beta test of something like this.

I am biased too. Ask me in foru years.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

First, computers (especially laptops on a vessel) are hardly reliable 100% of the time, but neither is ATON. Aids to navigation, look at how many people run over the buoy because they know they have good water and need, need, need to be over in the duck water. The last couple of trips I've recovered about 40 buoys in my northern AOR. We have people who see buoys as a hinderance to their path.
With cellphone coverage,....... it's just a matter of time. We could even pay for a couple of towers and it would be cheaper in the long run.
The human error is there right now. We place buoys, and even if everything went right, the next guy down the river might have taken them all out. You could have also had the bottom change since you set the bouy. We talk about our legal responsibilites,.... but we're the one who set those. We say where the Aids are and vouch for their reliability. If people knew that the ATON was electronic, what guage they were set at, the depth, and the date,.... wouldn't we be just as covered, regardless of the fact that we didn't have metal on scene?

Burt, the rivers will be the first to change. We're already discussing replacements for the WLRs, and lots of people are discussing the need. The people that we serve are mostly professionals. We don't get the recreational traffic they get on the coast. It easier for us to enforce requirements on commercial users. We tell people they need AIS or Electronic Charts...... they're going to comply.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Buoys are Aids to Navigation. The Aldebaran (and other ECS brands) are the same...Aids to Navigation. Neither should replace the other. If the aids on the Western Rivers can be replaced by electronic marks on an ECS...all aids could be replaced in the same way. Again...legally, I can't see this ever getting traction. When that electronic system crashes for an extended period of time...everyone is going to want those buoys out there.

And Stu...if you would just widen the river like the tow-boaters want, you wouldn't have so many buoys getting run over! When they run them over...that's a hint.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Deane, they aren't running over mine, I get everyone else's strays. We do have different people using our systems though. Those coastal Aids are being used by anyone who buys the boat. Ours are used by licensed operators and people who just read Tom Sawyer. I can see a time when we regulate the types of navigation systems that commercial user would have to carry,.... I can't see where everyone in personal crafts would have to meet those same requirements.

[BMCM Ian McVicker]

And Stu...if you would just widen the river like the tow-boaters want, you wouldn't have so many buoys getting run over! When they run them over...that's a hint.

LMAO! Now that was funny.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Stu if you think there aren't many rec boats on the river, you can ride with me, Deane or Ian and learn much dfferently. There are not too many on the lower, but throw in a lock and dam and damn the rec boats are everywhere.

I disagree, coastal would be easier because the positions you put your aids do not change when it rains, the snow melts or it doesn't rain.

Your buoys dont get run over, we all say that. We always blame the guys above us and you have 4 boats above you just to the Ohio.

Now, you can retire and chill out the rest of your days in PR. Deane would not mind and you could take some more with so I can make 9 next year. Unless you are trying to desin a new program that would allow us to quit setting buoys.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Burt those rec boats aren't the ones that use our bouys. Have you ever gotten a complain about where you're putting your buoys from the private sector? Are you marking random rocks or 12 feet/9 feet of water? Those rec boats are drawing what.... 4 foot. They go where they want to.The ones that use the rivers don't compare to the ones who use the marinas along the coast. The taxpayers with the money will put up the fight to keep their favorite waterways open and clearly marked. Wouldn't you agree that if we had people with pull asking for them, we'd have lighted bouys in certain areas?

I'll make the push for transferring all ATON in Puerto Rico to another agency before I retire. Then I'll send my resume to them. I'm not designing a program,... I didn't even have the originality to come up with this one. When we were called by the people looking at replacing the WLR fleet, they asked if someone else would be able to do our job. I think people have been looking for ways to transfer ATON to someone else long before I jumped my first buoy back in the mid 80s. I look at Aldebran II,...... and I hear a clock ticking in the background.
The new TANBs that we bought for our ANTs have gun mounts. Tick tock tick tock....... or if it makes you feel better, the whistle in the background is a train coming, be prepared to get onboard.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Stu...rec boats that draw 4ft in my AOR use the bouys or they run aground (in some areas). There are plenty of shoals where my bouys are sitting in 9-12 feet of water but it drops down to 4 feet just outside of the bouy line. I also have plenty of buoys that are marking underwater hazards...rocks, sunken barges, bigger rocks, etc...

There are some buoys that are lighted on the rivers. The problem is that they don't last. Either the water takes them out, a tow-boater takes them out or a rec boater takes them. I know there are still a few out there.

As far as marina's go...Ian's mooring is right next to a marina that's as big as any I've seen on the coast. And, the boats to match!

LMR is VERY different than areas up river from you. When you go to Iowa for your DD, you'll see what we mean.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Why do I gotta go to Iowa? I think the CHENA is going to put in a good word for me down in LA..... I've got two years to lobby for that anyway....
As far as the lighted bouys being taken out by the mariners..... I thought that was a hint that they wanted to be where the buoys are? If you have four foot shoals, why not punch a pole, and put one of those new LEDs that has a battery with a longer shelf life than a twinkie, ..and call it a day?
If the water is taking the buoys out shouldn't we be looking at a better system?

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Stu, water takes out or is responsible for the debris that takles out buoys all the time, even south of Natchez.

The upper still has lighted buoys. I know the Scioto has several.

First you have the change the law, then you can have virtual buoys but if you con the river community into it, the the coastal buoys are next. Do you really think that will happen? The lobbiest will go nuts and believe me, those tow boat comapanies have some pretty high paid one on thier staffs. I know we always revisit whether or not the CG should be doing ATON but for some reason we continue to get the call. The construction tenders are in the same boat as us. I know there are enough contractors punching piles along the coast that we could do away with that job first. Why dont you look at that? Why are we punching piles along the coast?

Some years ago the CG contracted out ATON in the Cape May AOR. It failed. If we cant contract it out, how are we going to convince the mariners they dont need buoys? Sell them first then I can retire.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Why do I gotta go to Iowa?

Beside the fact that Burt will be there? It's a great place.


If you have four foot shoals, why not punch a pole, and put one of those new LEDs that has a battery with a longer shelf life than a twinkie, ..and call it a day?

Stu...those shoals usually extend around a bend. There might be 3 bouys or 10 bouys marking it...Punching a pile isn't going to be the answer for that.

I just can't imagine your proposal working.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Burt, what law? And I'm not saying we stop marking the channel, I'm just saying we stop marking them with stuff you can actually touch. Now, before we start calling this my proposal let's all admit that this isn't the first place you've heard of it. Are you guys saying the Army Corp couldn't take over the rivers? How about it they transferred the assets back over to the DOT? You really can't envision a day when that happens?
You see, I can see a day when they say if it isn't multi-mission capable..... it isn't Coast Guard.

And Burt, I got an e-mail today that didn't come right out and tell me to tell you not to unpack when you get to your next unit,........ but I also wouldn't tell you to set aside money for that COC in four years. You might luck out and get to keep the keys when they're done with her...... but I wouldn't count on that either. Next year when we're all sitting around in a room wondering why we haven't heard anything about replacement hulls and we haven't gotten anything final on the SSD/CST decision, just realize..... you're on the back burner, waiting to see how the rest of the meal turns out.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Now, before we start calling this my proposal let's all admit that this isn't the first place you've heard of it. Are you guys saying the Army Corp couldn't take over the rivers?

Stu...this is the first place I've heard of making ATON "Virtual". That's new to me.

The idea of having some other agency (like the ACOE) take over the ATON mission...that's not new. And, we all know that could happen. But, it's quite a stretch to get from the ACOE taking over ATON to setting virtual bouys...

[BMCS Burt Ford]

The law that tells us that we have to mark US navigable wayerways. I am pretty sure it is not a vitual mark either.

Last I heard the corp did not want the job of marking channels in the western rivers since this would be a precursor to them taking over all ATON. I am not saying the CG will always have to do ATON, but everytime we put another dollar into a tug, we are sealing our fate. If these new engines/gensets work out, you will be the last to see new ones. I saw the '09 budget and there is a request for the money to help.

I am getting possession of a 41 UTB here. Part of that reson is so the CG does not loose the asset when/if it gets recapitalized. DO you think the CG would want to loose 20+ assets? I dont think they will.


Your idea has merit, but dont sell it to us, sell it to our customers.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

I saw the '09 budget and there is a request for the money to help.

There was a total of 9 million dollars asked for in the 09 budget for the inland fleet. It's a start.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Deane, ........ actually getting the money will be a start, they've been asking for years. Didn't someone mention that they asked for $1 in the 08 budget? That was a non-starter.

Burt, I'm not selling anything. I just asked if the rest of you are thinking the same things that I am. I drive down the river , look at that screen, and wonder why we really need the buoy there. I've listened to people talk about how the tugs drive over the buoys all the time and keep wondering how long we'll keep replacing them. It's like when I hear about those guys who keep rebuilding the same structure everytime they get underway.....

I have a question for you..... if you took over your next unit, and you found a shore aid that was completed obscured by vegetation. You guess that it hasn't been brushed in years. You also notice that it hasn't been reported by anyone. Would you work to clear the Aid, or ask to remove it?

[BMCS Burt Ford]

I have a question for you..... if you took over your next unit, and you found a shore aid that was completed obscured by vegetation. You guess that it hasn't been brushed in years. You also notice that it hasn't been reported by anyone. Would you work to clear the Aid, or ask to remove it?

Ask to remove it. I have done that several times. In fact, I found an aid ext(Baltimore) in passing. I let it go because I though the aid was stupid. Made a note of Date and time and waited. 6 months later it still was not reported and we fixed it. My request was denied because the Maryland Pilots wanted it. I pleaded my case and lost. So, there are tens of thousands of rec traffic on the bay but we kept an aid for the pilots and they did not even know it was out. I have also discontinued 3 aids since my arrival here and I dont have many.

To answer your other question, no I have not thought about virtual aids. Hell if we can't get rid of loran for fear of an attack on our satelites, I am sure our ATON system will never go to virtual for fear oof the same thing. I would venture to say our buoys are considered critical infrastucture for the safety of the american people. Take out GPS sats, people need paper and buoys again.

[ETC Pat Kaschube]

[QUOTE=BMCS Burt Ford;28950]Ask to remove it. I have done that several times. In fact, I found an aid ext(Baltimore) in passing. I let it go because I though the aid was stupid. Made a note of Date and time and waited. 6 months later it still was not reported and we fixed it. My request was denied because the Maryland Pilots wanted it. I pleaded my case and lost. So, there are tens of thousands of rec traffic on the bay but we kept an aid for the pilots and they did not even know it was out. I have also discontinued 3 aids since my arrival here and I dont have many.

To answer your other question, no I have not thought about virtual aids. Hell if we can't get rid of loran for fear of an attack on our satelites, I am sure our ATON system will never go to virtual for fear oof the same thing. I would venture to say our buoys are considered critical infrastucture for the safety of the american people. Take out GPS sats, people need paper and buoys again.[/QUOTE

Bring back typewriters and brownsheets. How about the yellow cards for inventory. :D

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Burt, you're reaching.... We have all seen where someone comes down the river and takes out some aids because they know they have good water and are trying to make good time. They don't care that the aid isn't there for the next guy. You might even hear the argument that the aid shouldn't have been there in the first place. That guy isn't using the aid, he's using the technology that tells him he'll be okay. That guy might just be going off of personal experience and his own knowledge of the river.
With the advancements in technology we have people transitting where they wouldn't have before,.... and making better time. Radar isn't always accurate and could fail at anytime, but people still use that to navigate. I've seen people making 14 knots when they couldn't see their own bow. Now you could argue that the rader is picking up those buoys....... but that electronic chart is showing them where they are in real time.
We will get to a point when we can pass over an area, read the bottom, it will convour it on to your chart, and automatically upload it and update a server where other people can download from. We already get print outs where someone surveyed an area and you get the phone call on why your buoys are placed where they are.

[BMCS Burt Ford]

What am I reaching for? The reason we dont loose LORAN? Thats what we where told here, if someone were to shoot down our sats, LORAN would be needed.

I have seen people take out buoys for a number of reasons. I have run an AOR where the tows where two hundred yards behind the buoys. On the lower, if you are that far outside the buoy line, then it is how the OIC set them. My opinion, if you are on the lower, get a 10 foot rise and dont move any buoys, you aren't marking the channel you are marking the river.

I have to agree with Deane, if someone is getting the same stretch of river taken out everytime they service the aids, then move the buoys.

Your srgument about radar is a good one but I could make the same one about electronic charts. lets start with a back-up for the back-up and an extra GPS.

I will say this, most of those guys running the river dont need a buoy or a chart until there is a new shoal and then they only need to see it marked once.

Those same people you say are transitting and making better time, could do without ATON anywhere.

Why do we need ATON in the man made parts of the ICW? Same argument only the ICW channel does not shift after a big storm or fast rise.

It will happen one day and the rivers may see it first, but I dont think so. I know the tree huggers would get involved too esp with the hazmat going up and down the river.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

When I was stationed at Oregon Inlet, every morning about 30 minutes before sunrise the sport fishing boats all lit off and headed offshore. When they got to the bridge, most of them didn't use the marked channel. They used an alternate (unmarked) channel that ran close to the south breakwall before heading offshore. Why did they do this? Because they knew there was good water over there and it was quicker than running out to the sea buoy. Did we request that the buoys be moved? NO. Everyone understood that they were running there at their own risk...outside of the marked channel. It's the same for the tow-boaters on the LMR. If they choose to run outside of the buoys, they're at risk. If they know there's good water there...great. But, if they run aground and it's determined that they ran outside the channel...they can't blame anyone but themselves.

Stu...you should take a trip with me on the Monongahela River. The guys that run that river (and the upper Ohio) run about 240 days a year. In that year, they make about 200 trips up the river. They're the experts on the river. If they want a buoy moved, I move it. If they don't need a buoy, I take it out. They're our customers. And, I've talked to them recently and they want the buoys in the water...

ATON has made significant advancements in my 20 years and the Aldebaran is just one of those advancements for the western rivers. Buoys are built better and can remain on station much longer. Shore aids have gotten much better and are being lit with LED's which keep prolongs their service life and service intervals. Aldebaran is just the latest and greatest in electronic charts.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Deane, it's going to come down to cost. Are those guys running the Monongahela using electronic charts? The day is going to come when we don't give them the option..... just my opinion. But eventually we're going to get tried of buying the hardware. When that happens, we're going to require them to use the software...... again, just my opinion. But we are moving in that direction. I get that you guys are saying that we have people that need us, and that you want to be able to continue to meet that need,..... I'm just saying that I reading the writing on the wall....... and there will come a time where we define what the mariner needs and what he wants..... and those will be to different things.

Burt, you're stretching with people taking out our satelites. You'd have to realize how many back up satelites we have available. If we're worried about someone destroying GPS, we had better still be teaching people how to use those sextons. And when was the last time you saw river charts with Loran Lines on them?

[BMCM Ian McVicker]

They're the experts on the river. If they want a buoy moved, I move it. If they don't need a buoy, I take it out. They're our customers.

Thank you for posting that Deane. Those are the two biggest things missed by folks on the rivers today.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Stu...No, the majority of the guys that run the Mon don't have electronic charts or AIS. When I make my upper run, I don't see anyone with AIS. When I make my lower run, maybe one in 5 have it. My point is we're a LONG way from this virtual ATON world that you envision. I can see the day when another agency takes the mission over, but not virtual buoys.

I don't know what wall your reading the writing on...

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Stu, I am not reaching, the government may be. I never came up with the satelite comment I was told that by people here in D17. I have no idea if that is a real threat or a remote possiblility, but if we keep LORAN for that reason, I dont see virtual buoys ever happening.