May 2007 Swe List

[BMCM Ian McVicker]

List is out.

[MECM Steven Lowry]

List is out.

Any chance someone could e-mail that to stevenslow@cableone.net?

I don't have any high hopes for myself, but I am on leave babysitting a 6 and 2 year old. Somebody help me!!:D

[BMCM Ian McVicker]

It's on its way.

[BMC Robert Ornelas]

Can someone fwd the list to me too please.

HDHOMBRE@gmail.com

Cheers

Rob

[BMCM Deane Smith]

I can't believe there are only 31 on the BMCS list. Compared to 42 on the BMCM list.

[BMCM Ian McVicker]

I wonder if the E-PME was the issue again, just like last year. That number suprised me a little also.

[MKC Bruce Larsen]

Can someone fwd it to me. bjlarsen77@mac.com

[MECM Steven Lowry]

It's on its way.

Got it thanks!

[BMCS Burt Ford]

I can't believe there are only 31 on the BMCS list. Compared to 42 on the BMCM list.

I cant either deane!

BTW good job Deane!

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Thanks Burt.

I think we should all congratulate Steve for placing #1 on the PACM list! Good Job Steve!

[BMCS Burt Ford]

I think we should all congratulate Steve for placing #1 on the PACM list! Good Job Steve!

I forgot I knew a PACS! Congrats Steve!!

[BMCM Ian McVicker]

I forgot I knew a PACS! Congrats Steve!!

That's outstanding for Steve. Now the question is, will they make any?

[BMCS Eric Guerette]

I always seem to be stuck at home when these things come out! Could someone please send it to me? ehshe74@verizon.net thank you.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Eric...sent.

[BMCS Eric Guerette]

Thank you Dean.
Congrats to everyone.
Next year I think I'll study. I was just comparing the CWO list to the SWE list and it looks like there are only 2 common names for BMCS. So the 31 could become 29. That's allot more than they made this year.

Eric

[BMCS Mike Ellis]

I gotta have it!!!!!!!! I'm on leave w/ no access. Please send to

reggaemusic@comcast.net


THANKS!!!
Mike

[BMCM Ian McVicker]

On it's way

[BMC Robert Ornelas]

Thanks for the fwd.

Cheers

Rob

[BMC John Phillips III]

wrote 14, moved up to 7, most likely going warrant. Congrats to all that did well enough to make it - which for BMCS - is likely going to be all who took the test ;)

[BMCM Ian McVicker]

Yeah, only 31 on the list, some will go warrant, this years list already cleared, they'll probably go through this one to.

Am still curious on why there are only 31 on the list:confused:

[BMCM Deane Smith]

I'm with you Ian. Is it the OINC thing? The PME thing?

[BMCS Eric Guerette]

It's all three; E-PME, both OIC certs and the academy. I don't think there were more than a few more that were eligible and didn't take the test.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Maybe some E-9's can stay in E-8 billets???? Not sure what the current/forecasted numbers are for E-8 next year, but if there aren't enough E-8's to fill the billets they have to be filled by someone.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I'd guess it's an OinC issue. The force manager posted stats last year that said only about 10% of the BMCs held the required certifications to advance.

[BMCM Ian McVicker]

I'd guess it's an OinC issue. The force manager posted stats last year that said only about 10% of the BMCs held the required certifications to advance.


What does that say about the status of our rate today? 10% is a pretty small percentage for the number of BMC's we have. I know that we have more non-Oic jobs for BMC's in the CG today, but it's a command rating for heaven sakes.

Maybe it's those folks that think Sector CMD's are out to get OIC's:rolleyes:

I think it's sad that we have only 31 competing for BMCS, but 47 for BMCM. Last year it was only 33 if I remember correctly.

I wonder how much smaller the Warrant list would be if they required OIC qual?

[MECM Steven Lowry]

My question is have we been trying to find solutions to the problem rather then reacting when they reach critical?

[BMC Gene Daigle]

I know from talking to many BMC's, it is the OINC. I have attempted the Sector board twice, studied 2-3 hours a day for three months and still didn't do good enough. In Sector Miami, there was only 5 who sat for the March board, three of them BM1's. So two BMC's out of all of Sector Miami BMC's went before the board. Now that is UNSAT. The only ones who were able to move on to the D7 board were the two BM1's currently filling XPO billets. The EPME thing is the least of most peoples worries. The CPOA should not be an issue for those who truly want to become BMCS, and OINC's. Like I said in the Should MK's become OINC thread, anyone going BOSN should have the qual code before they can apply for CWO. But many are choosing to take the path of least resistance and then end up getting a station anyways. Would you want those whose motivation to advance is by seeking the path of least resistance by making BOSN and then being In-Charge of a Station???

At the same time, does anyone think the bar has been raised for those who sit in front of todays OINC review board, in an era of many getting RFC??

Does a bias exist for those who have never been XPO's prior to sitting in front of the board, or at least a different set of expectations with the difficulty of questions??

I think this is going to be a trend, which is going to be unfortunate for the rating. I think Disticts, Sectors, and units that are proactive and have regular OINC College have better turnouts than those Districts and Sectors that don't. That may be one of the reasons for poor turnout at the local level here in Miami. :(

[BMC Gene Daigle]

Since I was home when the list came out, could anyone send me the list? I had four people take the BM1 exam and two who took the BMC and would like to see where they ended up. I heard that over 500 people took the BMC SWE. That is a lot. Good luck to all who did well, and are almost guarenteed to advance.

[BMC John Phillips III]

I wonder how much smaller the Warrant list would be if they required OIC qual?

I think it would be about 5% smaller considering how many sitting OIC's were on the list.

Like I said in the Should MK's become OINC thread, anyone going BOSN should have the qual code before they can apply for CWO. But many are choosing to take the path of least resistance and then end up getting a station anyways.

Gene, I know you sat before the board prior to, but didn't you apply for warrant? If it's a case of you applied because you could, that's fine, but if you feel that strongly about it, shouldn't you have waited until you certified?

[BMCS Eric Guerette]

I feel that the OIC board has lost it's focus. I hear too many stories of unit or area spicific questions being asked or questions that do not apply to the particular qual. If someone is going for ATON OIC they should not be grilled on LE. Sure, there are a few ANTs that have some LE duties, but anyone that can handle being an OIC can handle learning something new on the job. Then you have the board members that a trying to stroke their egos and play stump the chump. The manual is very clear on what can be covered in a board. You shouldn't have to know the specs on a boat you have never operated, just because you could someday. Asking someone the operational limitations of an 87', 49', or any other boat is irrelevant. Before you sit for the board you have proven that you can learns unit specific information by already holding COX'N and DWO certs. A board member asked someone if they would drink with the crew, he said yes and was questioned as to why he would do such a thing. You just can't bring personal bias on issues into the board, it cheapens the process.
The OIC board is the on big stumbling block for BMs trying to make 8, it it the board that is broken not the BMs.
Eric

[BMC James Brock]

I think it is the billets as well. There are still very few BMC XPO billets. I know we had talked about this in another post but I think it is important for people to have that chance. The OINC colleges I have helped with have quite a few BMC's that were not in XPO billets and a few BM1's that were, the sitting XPO's definitely had the advantage. No solutions to the problem but I will just keep helping the one’s that are trying. I ended up 20 on the list on my first SWE in 5 years. I had forgotten how nerve-racking that was. :D

[BMC James Brock]

My bad 23 not 20. :o

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Eric, we live in a world of checks and balances. If people really had those experiences they should appeal the boards decisions. If a board isn't living up to its obligations, let someone who can change that know. The people who say they experienced those things are complaining to the wrong people. Everyone answers to someone else. There a Silver or Gold Badge present on the board and a board president; those people are there to set the direction of the board.

We should all be wary of people explaining why they didn't certify when they sat for a board. Very few people blame only themselves.

Gene, having an XPO tour prior to sitting for the board isn't a requirement for BMCs. I never had an XPO tour. Were people told that they needed an XPO tour before they would be recommended or were they told that they should take an XPO tour to better prepare them for certification? Remember that there's two sides to these stories. When you hear about these things, try contacting a member of the board to hear their side.

John, are you saying that 95% of the people on the Warrant list are sitting OinCs? If so, next years BMCS list is going to be bleaker.

Here's something else to look at,....... 575 people took the BMC SWE. There's only something like 648(?) BMC billets. We have almost as many people looking for those billets as we have billets available, and those people can't get in the game until the people holding those billets, make themselves available for 8, opt for Warrant, or retire.

Eric....... it's not the boards, it's the BMs. We have BMs running those boards. We have BMs who sit for those boards. We have BMs that successfully certify. We have BMs who fail to certify. We have BMs who refuse to sit. Guess where I think the problem really lies........

[OSCS Chase Kempf]

I am also on leave for the next 3 weeks, if anyone gets a chance please e-mail me the list.

Thanks and happy 4th.

shizniks@mac.com


Chase

[BMC Robert Ornelas]

I can only speak for myself... it was the OINC certification. I went through the Fall 05 boards (Group,District, PAC) and failed at the PACAREA board. Captain said I was to "black and white" with my answers. I know what I would do, but I fed them the policy answers I thought they wanted to hear. I would've liked to have passed, but taking this tour has put my career in holding pattern or will be taking me down a different path (If I happen to make BOSN next year).

Back to the other posts I do agree you should hold at least one OIC Cert prior to advancement to E-8, and would agree that if BOSN is going to sit for command they should have to sit the same or simular board if they don't have an OIC Certification.

Cheers

Rob

[BMC James Brock]

If BM is the only rate that requires a qual code code for E-8 why is that? I agree that we should have to pass a board to be able to advance in the rate. Why are other rates not doing the same. MK certify as an EPO, OS's certify as a SDO. Guess I am opening a can of worms but why not it is the mess. And I was mistaken before. My profile letter says 23 but the list says 20. :D

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

Rob,
From what you said, it would seem to me that the board was not ONLY trying to test your knowledge, which you probably did well in to pass the pre-boards and get the "black and white" reason for not passing the PACAREA board. The OIC review board also wants to get a feel for your judgement and how you will apply the policy. Policy should be viewed as guidance and should be followed as closely as a situation will allow, but you must temper policy with your judgement. Black and White is great, but not every situation requires a black or white answer. You said you knew what you would do but gave the board the answer that you thought they wanted to hear. I would guess that they saw right through that. My experience was, and still is, that up front, this is the policy and this is how I would apply it in the circumstance presented works very well. Not just in the board but in real life sitting in the chair. If all our pegs were square or round, it would be easy. The fact is, most situations are various deviations of those shapes and we need to find a solution that best addresses the problem of getting the peg in the hole.

[BMCM Ian McVicker]

I think it would be about 5% smaller considering how many sitting OIC's were on the list.

That seems like a high number of only OIC's on the list, I'm going to look at that list again.

I did find it interesting though, I believe there were not any BM1's on that new list for 2008. I guess that's a whole different discussion for another thread.

[ETCM Joseph Harold]

Anyone on right now and has the list, I would appreciate it sent to my work addy. Check the global.

Thanks,

[ETCM Joseph Harold]

Ok got three copies now. Thanks to all who replied.

R,

[BMCS Burt Ford]

For those that think the board system is broke, you are wrong. BMCM Wolfe got folks together that had failed the board to find out what they believed was wrong. It was not the board, it was, as Stu put it, the candidates. I have sat before 4 Pre-boards, one district and on Pac-area so I know how they are done. I also sit on the D17 Pre-board every chance I get. It is not about books smarts. It is about leadership. These boards test your leadership by role playing and knowledge.

For those that fail, you really feel it was the board? Did you contact boards memebrs after on the phone? Did you ask for help? If not, why? My guess is personnal pride. The board IS NOT judging you on how well you do your current job. Most people think when they show up as a current XPO they know everything and they sit down and remember very suddenly the way your stomach felt as a BM3 at our first coxswain board.

Most BMs would be shocked by the simple things that get people on board. Simple Rules of the road, relative motion and simple plotting. We had one candidate once with very good marks and a great endorsement but could not speak coherently enough to complete sentances. If you cant talk in a room full of people, how are you going to make policy at that Station?

[BMC John Phillips III]

That seems like a high number of only OIC's on the list, I'm going to look at that list again.

Ian, the math wasn't the only thing I based that 5% on, I just used sitting OIC's as one of the reasons I thought it would be around 5%. If you wanted true statistics, 8 of the top 10 have an OIC cert. or are sitting OIC's. I don't know the numbers any further down the list than 13 (I am sure you can figure out why). Regardless, the cut was ten so if you want a somewhat accurate statistic based on the first 10, it would be 20% smaller. But I guess I am one of those that wants to believe good about my fellow chiefs and say that the other 15% aren't going warrant to avoid sitting before an OIC board.

Eric, I agree with you 100% about asking unit specific information. Before I certified ATON Afloat, I knew nothing about a 55 other than it has a crane and it can pick up buoys. After I got orders to a unit with a 55, I learned everything I needed to know about the 55 that I could, before I got there. Which included underway time on a 55 in the area I was stationed.

When it comes to boards, I believe we have to go with the boards decision (obviously we have to, but I mean trust their decisions). I have heard of a few people failing for not knowing unit or boat specific stuff, but that was only from the failing member, it was never actually from any sitting board member.

Having sat on the sector pre-board, I can tell you that it's shocking how little preparation some people make expecting to come in and pass. I also would say that anyone that advises their people to just take the board to see what it's like is not doing their people any good at all. They are just setting them up for failure or even worse, a humiliating situation for that member and the members of the board.

[BMCM Ian McVicker]

Ian, the math wasn't the only thing I based that 5% on, I just used sitting OIC's as one of the reasons I thought it would be around 5%. If you wanted true statistics, 8 of the top 10 have an OIC cert. or are sitting OIC's. I don't know the numbers any further down the list than 13 (I am sure you can figure out why). Regardless, the cut was ten so if you want a somewhat accurate statistic based on the first 10, it would be 20% smaller. But I guess I am one of those that wants to believe good about my fellow chiefs and say that the other 15% aren't going warrant to avoid sitting before an OIC board.

John, my question was if the list would be smaller if the qual were required. I did not say that I believed Chiefs were going Warrant to avoid the Board. Sitting or not sitting before the Board is a decision we as BM's have to make, and I know several that have decided that BMC is as high as they want to go, and the Board is not necessary for them. I don't agree with it (the whole command rating thing), but it is their choice.

I do believe that the service should require at least one qual before you are eligible for Warrant, especially after the recent split of specialties.

[BMC Michael Bagley]

I have sat twice and failed both times at the Sector level. The first time I sat for all four and It was so much info I was overwelmed. The second I sat for Aton afloat and ashore, I got asked so many LE and security zone questions I was amazed. The CMC asked we do you understand why we are asking you so many LE based questions. I responed that an Aton unit could be called up to help with LE. Also the boarded was based on District policy. I did talk to each and every board memeber on mine. My CO didn't have much to say. The CMC said that I should have gotten underway with the local ANT and poistioned checked a buoy. Even though I explained the poistioning method. They said I had great Demanor wasdead on. I also got told that I make decsions to quick. That I should sit back and think out the situation. I disagree with this. If you have a upset non-rate or young 3rd, I 'm suppose to say Hold on let me think this over.
I do blame myself, not the board. But this hasn't gotten me down. I asked for advice in another post and BMCM Slesh hit the nail on the head, I already knew the answer. I could fail that another 15 times, but I qill never quit. I qill get aton ahore and afloat.
Just my experiance,

As I visit the 87's for SEOPS Training, I will be hitting up the local Ants for help and boat rides.
Mike

[BMC Michael Bagley]

I have sat twice and failed both times at the Sector level. The first time I sat for all four and It was so much info I was overwelmed. The second I sat for Aton afloat and ashore, I got asked so many LE and security zone questions I was amazed. The CMC asked we do you understand why we are asking you so many LE based questions. I responed that an Aton unit could be called up to help with LE. Also the boarded was based on District policy. I did talk to each and every board memeber on mine. My CO didn't have much to say. The CMC said that I should have gotten underway with the local ANT and poistioned checked a buoy. Even though I explained the poistioning method. They said I had great Demanor wasdead on. I also got told that I make decsions to quick. That I should sit back and think out the situation. I disagree with this. If you have a upset non-rate or young 3rd, I 'm suppose to say Hold on let me think this over.
I do blame myself, not the board. But this hasn't gotten me down. I asked for advice in another post and BMCM Slesh hit the nail on the head, I already knew the answer. I could fail that another 15 times, but I qill never quit. I qill get aton ahore and afloat.
Just my experiance,

As I visit the 87's for SEOPS Training, I will be hitting up the local Ants for help and boat rides.
Mike

Maybe I failed because I can't spell or type......hahahaha
Mike

[BMCS Eric Guerette]

Mike,
If anything, the spelling just proves your a BM.

I agree that the demeanor and leadership potential are the most important parts of the board. At the same time those are the hardest traits for people to judge fairly and consistently.
When it comes right down to it, what are we looking for in our OIC's and how can we best tell when a candidate has what we are looking for?
I can tell you a few things that an OIC needs to have; a good understanding of CMDT policy, how to apply that policy to a small unit, an understanding of how a unit fits into the entire CG system, good temperament, and sound judgment. These are by no means everything required, but some of what I feel are the most important. Identifying the traits is the easy part, evaluating a candidate the hard part. Sometimes I think we get lost in the knowledge part of the board and forget about leader.
The CG doesn't expect the CO of a Cutter or Sector to know every little detail of the units operations. Just because the OIC has a smaller unit with less stuff going on doesn't mean he has to know every little detail to be an effective leader.

Eric

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Mike, you should have asked some follow-up questions on why they wanted you to think before you answer. Just speaking from personal experience, but sometimes the person will start anwering a question before the board finishes asking it. And some people throw out an aswer before they think of everything involved. The fastest answer isn't always the best, and some boards want to see that you're taking the time to factor everything in.
With regards to the up-set non-rate,.......yeah...... think it over. Ask the questions needed to get them the help that they need.

Eric, the CO can't know everything, and the Coast Guard doesn't expect an OinC to know everything either. An honest I don't know can tell you alot about a candidate as well. We don't know everything, but we should be able to tell you where we would look to find that answer. At a minimum, let the board know that you're the person who isn't going to stop until to get the right answer.
Take it down a notch.... Do you expect your Coxswain's to know everything before you certify them? Or do you expect them to understand the basics, and demonastrate the professionalism and maturity to do what's right in all situations?

[BMC John Phillips III]

John, my question was if the list would be smaller if the qual were required. I did not say that I believed Chiefs were going Warrant to avoid the Board. Sitting or not sitting before the Board is a decision we as BM's have to make, and I know several that have decided that BMC is as high as they want to go, and the Board is not necessary for them. I don't agree with it (the whole command rating thing), but it is their choice.

I do believe that the service should require at least one qual before you are eligible for Warrant, especially after the recent split of specialties.

Ian, I didn't think you were saying that. I was just saying how I came up with the number, but to further elaborate. I agree with what your saying on all accounts. I do believe at least one OIC cert should be attained before applying for warrant. I also believe that the other 15% that I was talking about only didn't bother getting the cert because they knew they'd never need it.

Ex: I have wanted to go warrant since I was a 3rd or 2nd class, but I also wanted to be a Chief and OIC first. Otherwise I would have applied for warrant about 4 years ago. (also wanted to do well on the BMCS test, but didn't quite reach my goal)

Like you mentioned, some people have the goal to retire as a Chief, some people know they want to go warrant as quickly as they can. If an OIC cert is not on their career goals list, it's not required so why should they bother? If it were required then obviously it becomes one of the things on their list towards warrant.

[BMCS Eric Guerette]

Take it down a notch.... Do you expect your Coxswain's to know everything before you certify them? Or do you expect them to understand the basics, and demonastrate the professionalism and maturity to do what's right in all situations?

Exactly the point I'm trying to make. It just seems that sometimes in boards, OIC or otherwise, we can get too focused on the detailed knowledge not the other factors.

If only having 30 or so BMCs sit for BMCS every year starts to create a shortage of BMCS's will the CG start to relax some of the requirements? It was done with the nav rules test when that was determined to be holding up to many potential BMs. Any thoughts?

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Once you have sat on both sides of the table you can see both sides of this story. Quick answers on an oic board seem canned. I slight pause shows you are thinking the issue over.

Eric you are making my point in your last post. Usually the candidates get lost in knowledge and forget there is a leadership side. A great leader can do all of that, apply all off what you are saying and teach it to our crew.

Mike, yes if you are upset at that non-rate, it may be better to wait. Flying off the handle does more harm than good. Want to know more specifics, call myself or Ian and we can tell you first hand.

here is a part of an email for OINC board stuff that another BMCM and I were doing the last two years;

"When you are asked a question by the OIC board, you should provide an answer in a way that provides the board with the feeling that your given answer reflects an air of confidence and assurance. Too often the board can pick up on “canned” answers to questions. Be ready to articulate main points, references or simply relate your answer to a concept, policy, or an operation. You must be able to relate to the subject matter in a way that enables you to make informed decisions, and take any actions that may be needed as an OIC.

A specific example is the standard question - When is a Cutter Engineering Report due? The typical answer: The 31st of January.
Now the hard part is to relate various reasons for the Cutter Engineering Report, what it can do for you as well as others.
* Relate to a reference: M9000
* Relate to an application: CM-Plus,
* Relate to the reports main contents: Such as the self audits of all engineering and safety related programs, Parts and Allowances, PMS completion, Outstanding SHIPALTS, unit top 5 concerns, and OIC remarks etc…
* Relate to who sees the report and why: Group Engineering, (provides assistance and $) MLC (v), (Tracks trends, $) Port Engineer (Assists with LRMP, and drydocking)
* Relate what the report can do for you: Provides a self audit of all Engineering Systems, Allows you to verify outstanding ECRs, SHIPALTS, Track PMS completion, and allows you to voice your top engineering issues.

By relying less on providing canned answers to questions and relating to concepts you can talk intelligently on any given subject at various levels of command. That’s what an OIC has to do! Think of it as having to go before a gang of reporters. You have to be able to talk intelligently in any given aspect.

There is no worse feeling than providing a canned answer to a question without having the foggiest notion of how to relate to the answer that you provided. You must articulate your thoughts clearly, logically and with the command presence the Coast Guard is looking for in an OIC."

[BMCM Ian McVicker]

Mike, yes if you are upset at that non-rate, it may be better to wait. Flying off the handle does more harm than good. Want to know more specifics, call myself or Ian and we can tell you first hand.
[/I]

Burt, I believe he was talking about dealing with somone that is upset, not being upset with someone.

My answer would be to tell them to sit down and calm down. Deal with the situation rationally, and figure out what needs to be done. Even in a real crisis you have at least a few seconds to think. Most times someone is upset like that it involves some type of drama, and the answer is usually easy.

Burt, let's not start telling stories about irrational people flying off the handle, because we could be here for weeks:D

[BMCS Burt Ford]

Burt, let's not start telling stories about irrational people flying off the handle, because we could be here for weeks:D

Sorry Ian I was having flash backs! I am better now.

[BMCM Ian McVicker]

I hear you brother, I still twitch every once in a while:D