USMC to LOWER Drinking age to 18 [Archive]

LTJG Brian Strattard (ETC)

05-18-2007, 09:11 PM

IMO...if you serve you should be afforded the opportunity to drink if you choose. Before anyone chimes in with the "they're young and don't make good decisions" argument...remember that these are the people we are entrusting with weapons, dealing with sensitve documents, giving security clearences to, maintaining our operational equipment, handeling our money...and the list goes on. Besides...being older doesn't make drinking any easier...just look at all of the alcohol related incident in the CG and many of them were over 21. It would be interesting to see the years alcohol situations and incidents data, taking those who were underage and just caught with alcohol out of the mix, I'm willing to bet that most of the fights, arrests, DUIs and such were from members that were over 21. Yes, if all our members had access to alcohol if the policy was changed, the numbers of situations and incidents would be expected to increase, but then we could give training and look out for each other out in the open instead of leaving underage members to their own devices...

Strat sends...

BMC John Phillips III

05-18-2007, 09:56 PM

IMO...if you serve you should be afforded the opportunity to drink if you choose. Before anyone chimes in with the "they're young and don't make good decisions" argument...remember that these are the people we are entrusting with weapons, dealing with sensitve documents, giving security clearences to, maintaining our operational equipment, handeling our money...and the list goes on.

Brian, we usually seem to agree on a lot of things but I think the only reason we don't on this matter is that you are not fully informed. (sorry if that comes off as arrogant - at least I am self aware)

Anyway, that very same argument was brought up at the last "alcohol training" we had and the fact of the matter is that at 18 the brain has the mental capacity to perform all of the tasks you mentioned (thankfully). So while 18 year olds may be psychologically ready for booze (and I would argue that to be a very very small percentage of them) they are not physiologically ready for the alcohol. This is a fact that has been scientifically proven. The brain hasn't fully physiologically developed at 18 and alcohol limits or even damages that growth (depending on level and frequency of intake).

Ironically the one person in training that wouldn't let go of the argument (or just didn't get it) admitted that his parents gave him alcohol from the time he was an early teen.

ETC Joe Jester (Ret)

05-18-2007, 11:05 PM

John,

Opinion of Dr Ruth Engs (http://www.indiana.edu/~engs/articles/cqoped.html) recommending lowering the drinking age.

AMA's history of Minimum Legal Drinking Age (http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/13246.html), funny, the research findings doesn't mention any physiological factors.

Effects of Minimum Drinking Age Laws: Review and Analyses of the Literature from 1960 to 2000 (http://www.collegedrinkingprevention.gov/SupportingResearch/Journal/wagenaar.aspx) doesn't mention any physiological factors.

Choose responsibility (http://www.chooseresponsibility.org/myths_realities/) is an interesting website discussing the myths, the pro's and the con's.

For the record ... I'm on the side that states ... IF your in the military and you want to have a drink ... you certainly earned it. That opinion of mine hasn't changed since 1969.

BMC John Phillips III

05-18-2007, 11:46 PM

Joe, I am not sure that opening your remarks with a link that is entitled "the opinion of..." is going to help your case but hey, freedom of speech and all that jazz.

For every website or study arguing something one way there is another (remember it's the internet). So I will not waste my time or yours providing reputable studies and research supporting what I have stated as fact. (two reasons) 1. you could easily find them yourself and 2. it wouldn't likely change your stance on it.

As with a link provided in the "terminology thread" bad things happen when alcohol is involved and I am talking a 40 something year old... and you want to give alcohol to 18 year olds? Seriously....

LTJG Brian Strattard (ETC)

05-19-2007, 01:09 AM

John,

I look at it like...if the majority of the world drinks at 18 or less...and the rest of the world is just fine...that's proof enough for me. Statistics is a funny tool since results can be skewered to fit most any theory...so I don't really take everything as what is presented to me...as with this case, I see the rest of the world having no ill effects then it leads me to believe that those telling us that the body can't handle alcohol at that age are the same vodoo doctors that keep changing the greatest diet stategies with the current trends...:D BTW...smoking is bad for all ages...yet that can be bought when you're 18...

Strat sends...

PAC Darrell Wilson (Ret)

05-19-2007, 01:41 AM

John, you have fallin in line with the rest of the sheeple and believe whatever is spoon fed to you. Let me give you some facts to do what you wish. During my early years from 18 to 20 I lived in Germany. There was no drinking age. If you had the money and could reach the bar, you could buy whatever you wanted. Sex was also very open and was not taboo. At the local pool there was no requirement to wear anything. You know what was amazing? Germany had a much lower incident of unwanted/unmarried pregnancies. There was also a much lower percentage of alchol issues. You know why? There was no mystery to it.

BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)

05-19-2007, 07:20 AM

I have reserved my opinion on this until now. I will make it short & to the point. Aren't those in the military supposed to be taught responsibility? To me for a Coastie to have a few beers at a CG Day Celebration, drinking responsibly, would not hurt at all.

The USMC is not opening this up to very base, all the time. Those 18 at Quantico this weekend will still have to drink there Pepsi.

Personally, I don't see it as a big deal. Those that have grown up with the 21 year old drinking age perhaps don't want others to have something they didn't. I don't know, but a few beers with a hamburger are ok in my book.

Wray.... :cool:

BMCM Deane Smith

05-19-2007, 08:16 AM

but I think the only reason we don't on this matter is that you are not fully informed. (sorry if that comes off as arrogant - at least I am self aware)

John...yes, that comment comes off as arrogant and it's arrogant to be self aware. But, couldn't you have made your point without the comment?

BMC John Phillips III

05-19-2007, 09:54 AM

The italicized part or the part before? Either way, I think that because there are people out there that misread me a lot and look for things I say to find offensive, that I would clear that one up right away.

I meant the first line as, me and Brian usually agree on a lot of things and I was guessing maybe he didn't know that the brain was not fully developed at 18 (someone show me where that statement is untrue).

Then I threw in the part about that sounding arrogant due to the part about people looking too deeply into what I say. I knew it could be misinterpreted as me being arrogant. The self aware part (I stand by that I am) was more of a joke to say that I agreed with the people who would see that comment as arrogant (even though I don't really).

Back on track - to the people that don't have an issue with 18 year olds drinking (and we know their brains are not fully developed)- what is your stance on pregnant women drinking?

I have to speculate here and say that the majority of people who (I won't say are not enforcing) are sympathetic to 18 year olds drinking do so out of not wanting to be a hypocrite. Which is respectable. I on the other hand didn't consume alcohol until I was 22 and my stance has always been if I can wait until 22 then anyone else can wait until they are 21. Maybe that's why I am so smart :D

BMCM Deane Smith

05-19-2007, 10:26 AM

The italicized part or the part before?

This part..."you are not fully informed"

It's an unnecessary comment. No matter how it was intended, It sounds bad

And, you didn't answer my question. So, let's try it again...couldn't you have made your point without the comment?

The self aware part (I stand by that I am) was more of a joke to say that I agreed with the people who would see that comment as arrogant (even though I don't really).

I agree...I don't agree. Which is it?

what is your stance on pregnant women drinking?

If you're asking me...I don't think that pregnant women should drink.

BMC John Phillips III

05-19-2007, 11:26 AM

I meant the comment just as I wrote it. If what you are saying is that I have to go back every time I make a post and reword it, I will probably stop posting. I added the comment about sorry if it sounds arrogant to show that, yes I understand it could be took that way but it's certainly not the way I meant it towards Brian. As far as I know he hasn't taken issue with it - as we tend to agree. I will wait until he comments before making a final decision as to whether or not I could have worded it differently or avoided saying it at all.

Are you asking me to change who I am? As far as I know that post is still in line with the rules. However:
2. Respect each other. "Personal" attacks and demeaning remarks have no place in our discussions.

every time one of my posts gets picked apart - it seems to be by the same person. So to me that is "Personal." But maybe you are just here to keep me honest (not necessary). I just see it as singling me out and getting yet another thread off topic.

If you're asking me...I don't think that pregnant women should drink.

I was asking everyone that thinks 18 is a good age to start drinking. The reason I asked is for the same health reasons a mother should not introduce alcohol to her unborn babies brain. I will concede that the damage to an 18 year olds brain would likely pale in comparison, but then again I am sure that neither the mother or baby are binge drinking either.

I know I didn't put it in the form of a question, but could you give me your perspective on my speculative theory?

LTJG Brian Strattard (ETC)

05-19-2007, 12:18 PM

John,

No worries...I knew what you meant. I've got a pretty thick skin and a high regard for myself anyway!!! Maybe that is why I keep the pic below on my desk...:D

Strat sends...

ETC Joe Jester (Ret)

05-19-2007, 01:46 PM

John,

That first link was the opine of a Dr of applied health sciences ... and it differed from yours which is why it was included in the list.

You failed to provide any link ... so you haven't affforded me the opportunity to read your side ... which would come from the same internet.

What is a reputable source for you? I showed you studies supported by the AMA, a Dr, and another. Is the AMA ... American Medical Association ... an questionable source?

Who wrote your "source material"? The last website I quoted has the pro's and con's of the MLDA of 21.

Because someone doesn't have the same opine as yours doesn't make them wrong ... it makes them different. You don't like me challenging your statements ... then show some sources. This website wants people accountable for their statements, then don't complain if your being held accountable. If you read the responses, I wasn't the first to disagree with you, although I was the first to provide some links for others to read and decide for themselves. You my friend, have offered nothing but an opine.

I certainly would have read your references, checked out the authors, and see if there's a political agenda behind their statements.

When I clicked on the AMA link, I was sure they would support your opine concerning the physiological factors and was suprised when they didn't.

BMCS Jim Madsen

05-19-2007, 03:47 PM

John,
You have a very high opinion of yourself. Your posts almost all tend to support that idea. OK, so be it. That is who you are and that is fine. I think issues arise and you are called out when it is percieved that you are standing on someone elses toes to make yourself taller. Not a cheap shot or trying to bash you. Just pointing out what others may perceive. Unless you have a Phd behind your name, it would be nice to have something to back up your suggestions as others have provided.
Maybe it is because I am 6'3", but it seems to me that the biggest, lifted trucks with monster tires are driven by the smallest men. I wonder if there is some compensation going on there?
As far as alcohol at 18... I am a believer in obeying the law of the land. I have seen far to many problems associated with alcohol to believe that there is anything good that comes from it's use (abuse). I will not argue that a person that is old enough to carry a gun and fight for his country is not old enough to have a beer. I think it has much more to do with maturity, respnsibility and accountability. If those are factored in and there is a standard that all are held to, then pour away. Personally, I QUIT drinking at 18.

BMCM Deane Smith

05-19-2007, 03:51 PM

I meant the comment just as I wrote it. If what you are saying is that I have to go back every time I make a post and reword it, I will probably stop posting. I added the comment about sorry if it sounds arrogant to show that, yes I understand it could be took that way but it's certainly not the way I meant it towards Brian. As far as I know he hasn't taken issue with it - as we tend to agree. I will wait until he comments before making a final decision as to whether or not I could have worded it differently or avoided saying it at all.

Are you asking me to change who I am? As far as I know that post is still in line with the rules. However:
2. Respect each other. "Personal" attacks and demeaning remarks have no place in our discussions.

every time one of my posts gets picked apart - it seems to be by the same person. So to me that is "Personal." But maybe you are just here to keep me honest (not necessary). I just see it as singling me out and getting yet another thread off topic.

I asked a "Yes" or "No" question and you give me the above? OK...never mind, I'll assume from your dissertation that your not willing to answer yes or no.

You of all people shouldn't ever accuse anyone of picking apart posts or getting threads off topic.

BMC John Phillips III

05-19-2007, 04:36 PM

John,

No worries...I knew what you meant. I've got a pretty thick skin and a high regard for myself anyway!!! Maybe that is why I keep the pic below on my desk...:D

Strat sends...

Brian, that's awesome! Great reply....thanks for accepting me for who I am :p

John,
You have a very high opinion of yourself. Your posts almost all tend to support that idea. OK, so be it. That is who you are and that is fine. I think issues arise and you are called out when it is percieved that you are standing on someone elses toes to make yourself taller. Not a cheap shot or trying to bash you. Just pointing out what others may perceive. Unless you have a Phd behind your name, it would be nice to have something to back up your suggestions as others have provided.
Maybe it is because I am 6'3", but it seems to me that the biggest, lifted trucks with monster tires are driven by the smallest men. I wonder if there is some compensation going on there?

Jim, once again you earn the "voice of reason" attached to your name. You are 100% correct in stating that I have a very high opinion of myself and as always - in my mind, rightfully so. Just ask anyone that has met me. I will answer Joe's reply and take some time to provide some factual information that shows the brain has not fully developed at 18. But I doubt that will lay to rest the argument with legal drinking age. Especially when the majority (my opinion) of the advocates for lowering it - are on that side because they drank underage.

For the record, I drive a Jeep Grand Cherokee which seats me only slightly higher than your average sedan. I do have to admit though I was considering putting a lift on it - only because it's a 96 and the suspension is shot and it wouldn't be worth it to me to replace with a factory suspension. Most likely I will just trade it in soon. I do recall seeing a picture of BMCS Smith's truck on here - that thing was huge, but it doesn't line up with your theory either cause he's a pretty tall man.

I will provide the information and links when I get back from coaching my girls' softball team, we have a game in about a half hour - wish them luck!

BMC John Phillips III

05-19-2007, 09:09 PM

The first link talks about Alcohol's effect on the brain.

http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa63/aa63.htm

A number of factors influence how and to what extent alcohol affects the brain (1), including

how much and how often a person drinks;
the age at which he or she first began drinking, and how long he or she has been drinking;
the person’s age, level of education, gender, genetic background, and family history of alcoholism;
whether he or she is at risk as a result of prenatal alcohol exposure; and
his or her general health status.

this one (adobe) talks about alcohol effects on teen brains why it is more dangerous to them than adults (and I am going with 18, 19 being teens, 20 well that would be the buffer cause not everyone grows at the same rate).

http://www.preventionnetwork.org/PAM%20Page/New%20materials/Adolescent%20Brain%20Under%20Construction.pdf

And while the teen brain is more susceptible to the negative effects of alcohol, teens aren’t wired to heed the warning signs of dangerous levels of alcohol use. They are at much greater risk of ingesting fatal doses of alcohol because they don’t experience the sedative effect or the motor problems that adults do.

This site talks about how alcohol enters the brain more easily than some drugs.

http://www.amsa.org/resource/natlinit/alcohol.cfm

The unique hydrophilic qualities of alcohol make it a perfect molecule for rapid entry into and exit from the brain.

The effects of alcohol on the central nervous system (the brain and spinal cord) is that of a depressant, decreasing its activity and thus reducing anxiety, tensions, and inhibitions.

There are a lot of other factors involved here, such as food in the blood stream, time between drinks and so on. Not to mention responsibility as Wray mentioned, which to be perfectly honest with you, I would have no problem with 18 year olds drinking if they could do it responsibly. And while I say "Yes Wray," responsibility can be taught, it should be taught with important things like carrying weapons, standing watch and all the things Brian mentioned - that's how I believe responsibility should be taught. Now if there was a way to differentiate between those that would carry on that responsibility to drinking, again, I'd say fine. But even most 21 year olds haven't shown that level of responsibility when it comes to drinking - and it doesn't stop at 21.

Now I also find it interesting that the Navy would tightening up their alcohol policy and the Marines would loosen theirs? I wonder if it is tied in with recruiting efforts? If that is the case, I'd go back to what Ben said about you shouldn't have to use alcohol to bait people into participating.

ETC Joe Jester (Ret)

05-19-2007, 11:03 PM

Nice site, the NIAAA.NIH.Gov. Lots of good material there and there is no dispute on some of the factors, as the schema of life influences all, even when imbibing. I saw a few things there I would have incorporated into the training IF I were still active.

this one (adobe) talks about alcohol effects on teen brains why it is more dangerous to them than adults (and I am going with 18, 19 being teens, 20 well that would be the buffer cause not everyone grows at the same rate).

While I admire your assertion, The Adolescent Brain: Under Construction by Barbara Reynolds, Grand Traverse County MSU Extension is not about 18 and 19 year olds. Adolescence is the period of life from puberty to maturity terminating legally at the age of majority.

Using Lectlaw.com (http://www.lectlaw.com/def/a023.htm), a legal site, the AGE OF MAJORITY is the age when a person acquires all the rights and responsibilities of being an adult. In most states, the age is 18.

One quote from Ms Reynolds' report you failed to mention is Because teens have problems with impulse control, parents need to provide structures, such as a regular and reasonable curfew, to help teens maintain control. There are other things that parents can do that will help teens get through this often a turbulent period. Give directions one at a time. Teens have a difficult time remembering a series of directions. Be very specific in setting consequences, and consistently follow through.

Continue to spend time together as a family and maintain important family rituals and traditions, even when it’s a struggle. Provide supervised activities that give the perception of thrill or danger but are still monitored. Be patient with your teen.

Those two paragraphs suggest Ms Reynolds wasn't referring to those at or past the Age of Majority.

While I've read in the link I provided in a previous post (http://www.chooseresponsibility.org/article/view/15533/1/2641/), the brain not being fully developed at 18 ... nor at 21. If we are going to approach this from the physiological factors, there's a whole host of other things that need to be addressed as well.

The reasons they dropped the voting and drinking age to 18 [back in the 70s] was the ol' ... if your old enough to be drafted and die for your country, your old enough to vote and drink. That was my opine back then as I was in full agreement with that logical reasoning.

Then the feds forced the states to moved it back up by threatening to withhold federal transportation money during the Reagan years, thanks to the efforts of MADD.

The MDLA was 21 at the repeal of prohibition. I didn't see any references to the age before prohibition ... but it might have been like Europe.

Now, if everyone agrees the mind isn't fully developed till 25, maybe we should raise the drinking age and voting age to 25. Voting is as a responsible act for citizens, as is drinking.

And if we raise the age to twenty five, recruiting will have to stop targeting 18 year olds, for they do not have the capacity to be responsible as BTMs, BOs, Coxswains, LPOs, et al.

Some might view that alcohol at an event to, as Ben illuded to, baiting people to attending. I've had alcohol at events so those that wanted an adult beverage could do so. I had one simple rule, if you want a beer or two, enjoy yourself. If your recalled and can't perform your duties, then we have a problem. I've been recalled from a dance floor at the Robinson Club in Italy to return to the station to get the technicians back on track to solving a problem. I'm sure I had a rum & coke or two before the CO informed me of the problem.

As an OIC, your on duty 24/7/365.25. Do you think the CG minds if you have a beer or two, or do you take leave to imbib?

A Youth Rights website has an interesting treatise titled Legislative Analysis for the National Minimum Drinking Age Act (http://www.yria.alcade.net/essays/leg-an.htm)

iLiberty.org website has another version of the debate on the Drinking Age (http://www.iliberty.org/debates/id.3269/debates_detail.asp)that puts forth the normal statistics.

And for legal drinking ages around the world (http://www.answers.com/topic/legal-drinking-age), visit answer.com

This topic will be a dividing topic as opines vary widely.

BMC John Phillips III

05-20-2007, 01:39 AM

The reasons they dropped the voting and drinking age to 18 [back in the 70s] was the ol' ... if your old enough to be drafted and die for your country, your old enough to vote and drink. That was my opine back then as I was in full agreement with that logical reasoning.

See Joe, that was a different era and you are from that era so to me, it's almost natural for you to have the opinion that you do. I am from a younger newer era and I believe what I am living and experiencing, young people not making good choices with alcohol.

It's also funny that you mention the draft - perhaps this is a case of history repeating itself but only in reverse order - I guess we will know when the Marines start drafting again.

Then the feds forced the states to moved it back up by threatening to withhold federal transportation money during the Reagan years, thanks to the efforts of MADD.

An excellent decision and I am certain that if you check the statistics, you will see that it has helped.

Now, if everyone agrees the mind isn't fully developed till 25, maybe we should raise the drinking age and voting age to 25. Voting is as a responsible act for citizens, as is drinking.

18 to 21 was a big enough jump and a lot of people aren't too happy about that, do you think they could have ever gone to 25?

Since you drew the comparison between voting and drinking: if one 18 year old makes an irresponsible choice when voting, people don't die. Now if you wanted to really stretch that, you could say if millions of them voted irresponsibly, then maybe (but I don't like talking politics - as you may have noticed no posts from me in the Pres. politico thread)

And if we raise the age to twenty five, recruiting will have to stop targeting 18 year olds, for they do not have the capacity to be responsible as BTMs, BOs, Coxswains, LPOs, et al.

Do we have any positions where new recruits report in and don't receive any training for those positions? I don't know of too many 18 year old BOs, Coxswains, LPOs. Even if there are, there is OJT, PQS, Oral Board, and Leadership to determine that 18 year old fully qualified to do the job. Would you recommend some OJT, PQS or any type of board to determine if the same 18 year old is fit to handle alcohol? That could take us back to the "not enough time in my day discussion" we had on another thread.

BMCM Deane Smith

05-20-2007, 09:39 AM

Here's the MarineTimes article that discusses this policy change...

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/05/marine_alcohol_070511/

It sounds like a good policy to me.

And for legal drinking ages around the world (http://www.answers.com/topic/legal-drinking-age), visit answer.com

Looks like the United States is in the minority when it come to 21 being the drinking age. That's an interesting graph.

ETC Joe Jester (Ret)

05-20-2007, 10:19 AM

John,

During the discussion leading to the 1984 vote, Senator Leahy, D of VT inquired ... What makes 21 the magic number? Why not 25, 30, 40?

Twenty-one was a political number, much as it was upon the repeal of prohibition, acceptable to the forces of MADD as well as the politicians seeking political cover.

Granted you have a board for alot of things I've mentioned, but if the age was raised to twenty-five, think of all the good people you have at your unit that would no longer be there.

Think of how many coxswains there are if the average age is twenty-one? You mentioned they are proven by the mere passing of a board. You recognized their responsibility and yet you feel on the drinking subject, they are irresponsible. Like Ms Reynolds stated in the paragraph I quoted, and I'm paraphrasing, you increase the responsiblity given, with supervision. By the nature of the beast, those accepting more responsibility are given more responsibility.

Don't you think those under twenty-one know the penalties assessed by the CG for irresponsible drinking? The CG has no problem prostituting them for the CG needs ... under the color of giving them more responsibilities. Does the CG not hold them for the responsibilities of the office the member has accepted?

The data concerning the reductions since 1984 is not specific. They "estimate" how many lives are saved. The problem lies within the sample population, which increases and decreases annually with the changing lifestyles of those choosing to drink and those choosing not to drink. Lying with statistics is an art form. The truth exists in the raw data, and even then, you get garbage in = garbage out, depending on the original classifier.

Voting can get people killed. Many call the Iraq war, "Bush's War" and blame the President for the deaths. I don't recall that same mindset during the Clinton years when we had many killed in far away places, but then, Clinton sent troops for police actions. I'll bet those in the $hit in Iraq and those in the $hit in Mogodeshu would have similiar tales.

I see you used a familiar excuse That could take us back to the "not enough time in my day discussion" we had on another thread. Your making the assumption that your time is worth more then my time. I'm sure it's a good ego booster for you to think in such a manner.

I doubt the rest of the world holds the United States in high esteem on the drinking age.

ETC Joe Jester (Ret)

05-20-2007, 10:29 AM

Deane,

I agree with the Marines on this. It was an interesting article.

BMC John Phillips III

05-20-2007, 11:18 AM

Leading the way
But the commandant’s changes go further than any other service’s policy, decriminalizing welcome-home beer for underage Marines returning from deployment and giving commanders the authority to hold an 18-and-up kegger on base upon a unit’s return from a war zone.

And there’s no need to hide a flask in your sock before the birthday ball, because the commandant has you covered there, too. As long as your unit holds its celebration on base, commanders can drop the drinking age to 18 in the U.S. under “special circumstances,” and even authorize the possession and consumption of alcohol by underage Marines in the barracks.

Leading the way backwards it seems. I just find it hard to believe that these 18 year olds are going to play by the rules all of the time. IE, only drinking when allowed. I would not be surprised to see a sharp increase of suicide, dui's and other alcohol related incidents, but I hope that doesn't happen.

Joe,
What makes 21 the magic number? Why not 25, 30, 40?
Would you accept, Tax dollars as an answer?

Don't you think those under twenty-one know the penalties assessed by the CG for irresponsible drinking?
First of all, have you seen are numbers on alcohol incidents lately? And I am talking over 21 year olds. I honestly don't think things have changed dramatically from your day to ours, except for accountability. See the rug was so dirty when we picked it up we had to get a new one, the one we are now working with has little holes in it - so there is no more sweeping under it. "Transparency of information breeds self-correcting behavior."

I told you I wasn't going to get political, so maybe someone else has something to say about your Bush/Clinton comments.

I see you used a familiar excuse
Quote:
That could take us back to the "not enough time in my day discussion" we had on another thread.

Your making the assumption that your time is worth more then my time. I'm sure it's a good ego booster for you to think in such a manner.

Are you kidding me man? Seriously, did you read what I wrote there? Poor tactics, poor tactics. Anyone can go back and read what I wrote and see how you twisted it.

BMCS Dennis Endicott (Ret)

05-20-2007, 12:27 PM

I wonder if COMDT is having as in-depth discussion about this as you all are?

I hope, at the very least, the policy makers are reading your comments.

ETC Joe Jester (Ret)

05-20-2007, 12:59 PM

John,

I believe the answer to Sen Leahy's question was one of political survival ... not physiological, not based on science but acceptance. The political solution at the end of prohibition was proven to be acceptable to the general public so they made the "politically safe" bet. People don't pay taxes based on age, so I doubt that was a consideration. Politicians don't pay attention to taxes except to rail about "fair share" ... meaning ... screw the rich.

You may have not liked my twisting of your words concerning your time but the unusual thing about internet forums is the poster has the "choice" of what they are going to lend their time to read and write about. Asking someone for sources isn't about stealing time but to further the civil intercourse. Some of the sources viewed can be dismissed easily. Some are dismissed because their view is not congruent with the readers opine. Some are dismissed for the political spin. There are a hosts of reasons to suspect everything, and I suspect everything.

Why do people write? Some write to please their current professor, teacher, or whomever to obtain a reward ... whether it's for a grade or evaluation or whatever. Some write for pleasure, some for profit, and more reasons than I can conceive this morning.

This doesn't mean long held beliefs can be changed overnight, but it does give everyone a chance to read otherwise unknown authors. We don't learn in a vacuum, we never have. We learn when we read, observe, or analyze things we care about. Different people can read and come away with different conclusions. Looking at Ms Reynolds treatise on the Adolesent brain, you decided to include 18 and 19 year olds in the mix and I decided that the age of majority wasn't in the mix because of the title.

I think we agree with the studies on the physical effects because we both either observed them or experienced them over our lifetime.

The designated driver program is one that I certainly support and I'm sure it saved more than lives. In the old west, the designated driver program was in effect ... the horse knew the way home. :D

BMC John Phillips III

05-20-2007, 05:26 PM

Joe, that's funny, the horse ride home....could you imagine today?

Anyway, what I was saying about "not enough time in my day" was in regards to teaching people how to drink responsibly and I was talking in the sense of OJT and observing in order to determine them responsible enough to drink on their own - sort of like getting qualified. So that's why I was upset about you comparing our time - I am sure your time is way more valuable to you than it is to me and vice versa, but that's not the point.

Also, by taxes I meant that if all the 21-24 year olds were not buying alcohol - then the gov't would be losing a great deal of tax on that alcohol. That and 21 just seems like a good age - 3 years of breaking in adult you know?

Dennis -

if the policy makers are reading, I hope they don't follow the Marine Corps suite. It's not like we have a recruiting problem. Also - I would suspect we'd sit back and watch how this pans out for the Marines.

I am still looking for someone to share that the reason they are for 18 and up drinking is that they drank when they were 18.

I wonder how many parents are providing their 18 and ups with beer or liquor.

BMCM Stuart S. Slesh

05-20-2007, 06:11 PM

I've know some twelve year olds who made better adult decisions than some forty year olds I've known. Look at our own alcohol stats. It isn't the 18 year olds who can legally drink getting those AIs. And I'd be willing to bet that underage drinking is the only reason most of those illegally drinking would have gotten theirs. What's your excuse for those people over the age of twenty one who still refuse to make sound decisions with their fully developed brain?........ A theory I'm not willing to get on board with yet. If you're going to yeild to science on thise one John, yield to all the science on the subject. Some people are going with alcohol being a disease. They claim to have the research to back that one up as well. So maybe it isn't that their brain hasn't fully developed.... maybe the disease got them. John, when you come back down from your pulpid,........ I started drinking well before my brain reached maturity. That might explain why you were able to win the occasional.....very occasional Chess game. You've admitted that you didn't start drinking until after you were twenty-one.

Honesty time here John........ have you, with your fully developed brain, ever operated your vehicle after you have been drinking?

We should follow the law of the land. Alcohol is not the problem. It never was, in any era, in any culture. The lack of responsibility will always be our biggest down fall.

ETC Joe Jester (Ret)

05-20-2007, 08:48 PM

John,

I certainly did misunderstand your "tax" usage. I still don't think that's part of the mix because only 13 billion of the 2.x trillion in revenues comes from sin taxes with about 8 billion from alcohol.

Cornell Science News (http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Feb96/alcoholtax.ssl.html) advocates raising the alcohol tax five times it's current value as a methodology to reduce the "alcohol abuse" problems. All this would do is open the underground market similiar to the prohibition period, where as the federal government would lose revenue, as little as that 8 billion provides [relatively speaking].

Those residing on border states would escape to the other countries for their imbibing and increase the incidents of DUI. I'm sure there would be alot more establishments would be set up right along both borders and it would be boom times for Canada and Mexico. There would be thousands of new additions to the United States unemployment rolls. The interior states would have an underground alcohol sales rivaling the days of prohibition.

When I was a resident of a border county, there was a proposal to increase the sales tax. I wrote an article, accompanied by a graph, illustrating that the Sales subject to Sales tax decreased in the county because people escaped to the neighboring states where the taxable goods sales tax was non-existant on items. In fact, when they raised the tax 1%, the sales subject to the sales tax dropped 4%. Businesses struggling with a small margin would not survive a four percent loss of business. It took a decade for the income to reach the level would have been the following year had the sales tax not increase.

I found an interest point on the voting. Prior to the Fourteenth Admendment, the states determined all the voting requirements as per Article 1 of the Constitution. The Fourteenth Admendment is the first mention of attaining 21 years to vote. This provided the mindset that 21 was an acceptable number and political cover for the acceptance for 21 years to drink in, coincidentally, the Twenty-first Admendment.

I can't, for the life of me, find why twenty-one is the magic number. Maybe there was a move afoot from all the parents ... they've already suffered for eighteen years of putting up with us and didn't want to do three more. :D

BMCM Deane Smith

05-20-2007, 09:22 PM

if the policy makers are reading, I hope they don't follow the Marine Corps suite. It's not like we have a recruiting problem. Also - I would suspect we'd sit back and watch how this pans out for the Marines.

John...As I read the article, I didn't read that they were doing it for recruiting. Did you read that?

I like the policy because of the way that it's being applied and for the reasons stated in the article.

BMC John Phillips III

05-20-2007, 09:48 PM

If you're going to yeild to science on thise one John, yield to all the science on the subject. Some people are going with alcohol being a disease. They claim to have the research to back that one up as well. So maybe it isn't that their brain hasn't fully developed.... maybe the disease got them.
The links I provided also show how alcohol, consumed as an adolescent affects your chances of becoming alcohol dependant at a later age. I would be willing to bet that the same 40 year olds you are talking about with that are having issues with alcohol also consumed alcohol when they were below the legal drinking age.

I started drinking well before my brain reached maturity. That might explain why you were able to win the occasional.....very occasional Chess game. You've admitted that you didn't start drinking until after you were twenty-one.

Well the good news is that you've stopped drinking and the bad news is that your brain still hasn't reached full maturity. :p Can I joke like that? Everyone else who doesn't know - that's a light hearted joke. Anyway, it was 22.

Honesty time here John........ have you, with your fully developed brain, ever operated your vehicle after you have been drinking?

Master Chief, with me, it's always honesty time. So to answer your question, I can tell you that I NEVER consumed alcohol and got behind the wheel at prior to age 22 - I can't really recall any times after where I would say I was not fit to drive - with the exception of once. It was a CG Christmas party (maybe 98 or 99) and I got less than a block and realized that I was not fit to drive and I pulled over and let the wife drive (she had not been drinking). Is that honest enough? How about you?

We should follow the law of the land. Alcohol is not the problem. It never was, in any era, in any culture. The lack of responsibility will always be our biggest down fall.

I agree with lack of responsibility and might even say Alcohol not being "the" problem, but it's the predominant factor in most. I never saw a scenerio where alcohol made a situation better; only where it made it worse.

BMCM Stuart S. Slesh

05-21-2007, 08:43 AM

John, you should audition for "dancing with the stars"....your partner could be any direct question you're asked. Once you start drinking you're not the judge of whether or not you're fit to drive. And the CG's stance is that you are not. Remember it isn't don't get too drunk to drive,...it's don't drink and drive. And that first drink impairs your judgement, ask any scientist. It's also good to see that you minimize your own errors in judgement. 1 time and for about a block.....that you recall. Honesty...? Maybe..... but I find it hard to believe. I could ask around and maybe find some people who have a better recall skills. I've never drove after I was drinking, and you can ask anyone. I drank professionally. Walking itself was an accomplishment.

I know people in their forties who make poor adult decisions all the time, and don't drink. The scenario that I started had nothing to do with alcohol....you added that in.

Social drinking has improved the situation for many people. Some people can drink responsibily and have a better time. It has been done. Sometimes when you drink, the people around you seem more interesting, talented, or beautiful. Alcohol also has scientifically proven medical benefits. There is good in alcohol consumption, for responsible people. Alcoholics and irresponsible people should never drink.

And John,........the point I was trying to make with you, is that you never did anything wrong with alcohol until you reached an age when those scientist claimed your brain was fully matured. Then you did things that most children could tell you is wrong.......and you're minimizing/jusifying your actions.

Don't demonize alcohol. Look at the statistics. People of all ages and paygrades make bad decisions with alcohol all the time. You can pretend that if we kept them away from drinking legally for a couple of more years those problems wouldn't still occur, but you will always stand in my mind, as the example that people will continue to make bad decisions no matter when they start. I don't care what scientists tell to the contrary, some people's brains never reach maturity.

BMC John Phillips III

05-21-2007, 09:06 AM

1 time and for about a block.....that you recall. Honesty...? Maybe..... but I find it hard to believe. I could ask around and maybe find some people who have a better recall skills. I've never drove after I was drinking, and you can ask anyone. I drank professionally. Walking itself was an accomplishment.

Admin - should hold themselves to the same standard they expect everyone else to.

Have you ever seen me drink then get behind the wheel of a car? Now I am no lawyer, but I believe that if you take anyone else's word for it, that would be called "hearsay."

Also, you should clarify on your "drank professionally" comment because those that don't know you might not get it. Some might get the idea that you remained professional even after you had been drinking.

BMCM Stuart S. Slesh

05-21-2007, 02:29 PM

BMC John Phillips III

05-21-2007, 02:56 PM

John, we're back to you don't like to be called on what you type. This has nothing to do with Admin,...I wrote that. You're not a lawyer, witnesses can testify to what they saw. Heresay is when someone tries to testify about what they say they heard from someone who saw it.

Oh look, at baby wolf........

Not that I don't like being called on what I type, I stand by what I type (always have always will). I just don't like the insinuation that I was lying. I didn't say I never had a drink outside of that one incident and drove; l haven't said that I have. I said I do recall one incident where I was not fit to drive and I pulled over - 100% truth. I also said that I never ever had one single drink and drove a car prior to becoming 22. Both facts. Don't get mad at me because I am a better dancer than you are.

As far as the lawyer thing goes, provide a witness, get them to post it and not just say that they told you. Any other scenerio is - heresay - and to a lesser extent defamation of character. Do I need to come down from my pulpit still, because I was considering pleading the 5th your honor.

I don't get the baby wolf thing.

SKC Raymond Kurtz (Ret)

05-21-2007, 03:30 PM

Things you can do before you turn the magic 21 years of age.

Have an abortion.

Obtain a marriage license and get married.

Smoke any form of legal tobacco.

Drive a car.

Pilot a plane.

Vote.

Serve your country. I find it interesting that upon arriving home from the battlefields of Europe, Audie Murphy could not buy a beer. He was not yet 21. This in spite of the fact that LT Murphy was the most decorated serviceman of World War II.

I agree with Master Chief Slesh, it’s all about responsibility.

BMCM Deane Smith

05-21-2007, 04:00 PM

Admin - should hold themselves to the same standard they expect everyone else to.

What does this statement mean? ADMIN is made up of 4 members of the board. Maybe you can clarify this statement?

Not that I don't like being called on what I type, I stand by what I type (always have always will).

I don't get the baby wolf thing.

I find it funny that you don't like being called on what you type, but you frequently advise others on what they should type. You can't have it both ways.

I'm sure that you understand the baby wolf comment...

BMCM Stuart S. Slesh

05-21-2007, 04:01 PM

John, I only need to call one witness......you. And you have implied that you were never unfit to drive.....meaning that you have drank, just not to the point where you thought you were impaired. That's the Jenny Jones defense.

Read the USMC's policy...... I think that its designed to keep adults honest and acting like adults. Treat people like responsible adults until they give you the reason to treat them otherwise. Not everyone who drinks is going to have problems. Not everyone who drinks operates a vehicle. It's not the alcohol...... its the individual.

* For Baby Wolf comment explanation watch the movie 1941.

BMC John Phillips III

05-21-2007, 04:06 PM

I agree with Master Chief Slesh, it’s all about responsibility.

I agree with that too, I just haven't met any 18 year olds I thought were responsible enough to consume alcohol. I doubt the reason is because the US Marine Corps has recruited them all.

BMCM Deane Smith

05-21-2007, 04:48 PM

I think that an 18 year old that is returning from Iraq is responsible enough to drink a beer.

Throwing a cold one back with your family, friends and fellow Marines after getting off the plane from Iraq is just the right thing to do. How could that be a bad thing?

BMC John Phillips III

05-21-2007, 06:17 PM

That is fine to be your opinion, but I would say that you hold drinking beer in much higher regard than I do. If I were the Marine, I would be content with throwing a big hug around the family and being reunited with my girlfriend - way before I even considered tapping a cold one. But then again tapping a cold one wouldn't even be on my list. At 18 why would it be? Soda tastes way better and I definitely shouldn't have any craving for the taste of beer....I'm only 18.

BMCM Stuart S. Slesh

05-21-2007, 06:58 PM

John, I've lived in both Puerto Rico and Germany. I could show you plenty of 18 year olds who have drank responsibily and never broken a single law. Some fathers view drinking that first beer with their son as a rite of passage into manhood. You don't and that's fine. I think just watching that father have a beer with his Marine son who just returned from the war would be an emotion event.

And I don't think that Deane is holding beer in any regard. He just isn't seeing it as the villian.

BMCM Deane Smith

05-21-2007, 07:13 PM

John...The policy is a good one as it's being applied. It has nothing to do with who holds regard for what. It has nothing to do with craving a taste or needing a beer, it has everything to do with the application of the policy.

John...you said "I just haven't met any 18 year olds I thought were responsible enough to consume alcohol". What's your position on an 18 year old going to war and seeing combat? Do you think they're responsible enough for that?

CWO Shad Hudgins (MSTC)

05-21-2007, 10:34 PM

I look at it as between 18 to 21, is there really a significant change in maturity or resposibility level? I'd say the average boot after a short time in the CG is responsible enough to drink. If they abuse it, there will be consequences just like for those that are currently over 21.

Who's to say they're not drinking anyway? Since I'm a betting man, I'd be more than willing to place a wager that majority of underage Coasties are consuming alcohol are pretty regular basis.

Whether you see it as good or bad, booze is a part of military culture. Has been since....well forever.

BMCM Stuart S. Slesh

05-21-2007, 11:05 PM

Shad, I wouldn't limit that to military culture ......... Look around the globe. People have learned to make alcohol out of whatever was available. I had aunts that used to make dandelion wine.

PAC Darrell Wilson (Ret)

05-21-2007, 11:20 PM

John, you seem to have a real problem with alcohol. You also twist and dodge questions and answers better than most politicians. You say you havent met any 18 year olds responsible enough to have a beer but you are willing to let them coxsn a smallboat? Its hard to take you serious.

ASTCS Ronny German

05-21-2007, 11:47 PM

I 'm with those who believe "old enough to serve...old enough to drink(responsibly)". Having been stationed in both Guam and Puerto Rico where the drinking age is 18, and alcohol is cheap, it certainly wasn't only the "kids" I saw getting into trouble. The biggest "drunks" I saw were the older guys for sure.

Trust is a wonderful thing. If you trust your people they will suceed. If you trust that they will fail.......

BMC John Phillips III

05-22-2007, 12:20 AM

BMCS Smith, I would not drink a beer with my 18 year old son and I really wouldn't want him seeing combat right now. That's not to say I wouldn't allow my 18 year old son to fight for his country, I just meant right now. I am not sure that any 18 year olds going to war is a great idea either, but there are plenty that did so voluntarily and that's a whole other discussion. I doubt any did with the notion that they would be rewarded with a cold brewsky when they got home. Again, I don't really like talking politics. This is not about war, I am just trying answer your question as best I can.

BMCM Slesh, some fathers use hunting as a right of passage with their son too. I am not sure about hunting ages and rules - or how all that goes, but I would hope that they are abiding by the law in that regard too (such as legal age - possessing hunting license and so on).

Darrell, I don't really have a problem with alcohol, I just have a problem with the way it has become part of our culture. Like it or not alcohol is a part of our culture (Coast Guard and Military) culture. Nothing disgusts me more than to hear someone talking about how f'd up they got and what a great time it was throwing up and being hung over the next day. Glorifying alcoholism or binge drinking especially irritates me.
I am not saying that's what every 18 year old would do either, I just think the majority would. I am not 100% certain, but I think the odds are in favor.
Oh and thanks for the politician comment, does that mean I can count on your vote? Seriously?

Ronnie, I can agree with your statement about some of the biggest drunks being the older ones and I think that supports my argument. The younger they start the worse they get as they grow older. Of course I am just speculating and there is no way I can prove that the "older drunks" you saw were the same "younger drinkers" I am talking about. But the link I provided did talk about how the younger you start drinking the greater your likelihood of becoming alcohol dependant would be.

I am not the authority on alcohol and what age is the absolute right age to start or stop drinking at. I have provided my opinion which is based on scientific research and training I have received. I also provided (as per a request) a few links that support it. I preempted those links by saying for each study supporting one thing there's another saying the opposite. I will continue to believe that 18 is too young to drink until I see proof otherwise. I will also continue to believe that nothing gets better because alcohol was involved. Good times are good times - if alcohol was present at a good time - it should be coincidental. If you cannot have a good time without alcohol then you have a problem.

ETC Joe Jester (Ret)

05-22-2007, 12:37 AM

I will continue to believe that 18 is too young to drink until I see proof otherwise.

Get orders to Activities Europe and you'll see 18 year olds drinking legally. Of course since ACTEUR moved from the Embassy in London to Amsterdam ... who knows whatelse you disagree with as being common place.

The culture at fault is the U.S. Culture, not the CG. I had another "report", but the references it quoted weren't clear and it appeared to be an English 1200 report from a couple of young girls. Her informal sampling had all of her classmates drinking and only one without a fake ID. Then again, another responded it wasn't as much "fun" getting drunk when she turned 21. There are collegiate reports dealing with "binge drinking" that would be credible, but I haven't searched for them in awhile.

And let's not be sexist ... some fathers take their daughters hunting and they would certainly have a brew with a daughter returning from the sand box, if the daughter wanted one.

I can remember when I got back from Italy. The first thing I wanted to drink was "fresh milk". I drank enough wine and beer over there ... but fresh milk [not the frozen stuff we got from the Navy in Naples] was a very welcome taste.

You never know what one misses the most ... until you miss it for one or two years.

BMCM Deane Smith

05-22-2007, 08:14 AM

Good times are good times - if alcohol was present at a good time - it should be coincidental. If you cannot have a good time without alcohol then you have a problem.

So, with this logic, if people have a good time and alcohol is present it's always because of alcohol? It can't ever just be that people are having a good time...regardless of what beverages are present? Are you saying that if alcohol is present and good times are had, it's always because of the alcohol? Isn't that a little narrow-minded? Am I mis-reading your post?

BMC John Phillips III

05-22-2007, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by ETC Joe Jester (Ret)
And let's not be sexist ... some fathers take their daughters hunting and they would certainly have a brew with a daughter returning from the sand box, if the daughter wanted one.
You are funny Joe, you're right too, but funny nonetheless. Not that two wrongs make a right, but I used the Father Son example as I was responding to the same example.

I can remember when I got back from Italy. The first thing I wanted to drink was "fresh milk". I drank enough wine and beer over there ... but fresh milk [not the frozen stuff we got from the Navy in Naples] was a very welcome taste.
You never know what one misses the most ... until you miss it for one or two years.

That reminds me of a song it goes, "Don't know what you got til it's gone..." So the 18 year olds, fresh out of boot camp and serving in the "sand box" shouldn't miss alcohol, should they?

Deane you are definitely mis-reading that post. I was trying to say just the opposite. That alcohol does not have to be present in order to have a good time. Also that when alcohol is present and a good time is had by all - that should be just coincidental - in other words - whatever the occasion it would have been fun without the alcohol as well. I will concede that there are times where alcohol is an appropriate condiment to the good time (notice I said condiment, not main course). Certain types of celebrations - that traditionally have alcohol for the enjoyment of those that like the taste and the affects.

BMCS Burt Ford

05-22-2007, 12:38 PM

BMC John Phillips III

05-22-2007, 12:59 PM

JPIII I got to ask. If you have never seen an 18 year old mature enough to drink, have you ever seen one mature enough to be a Coxswain? A BTM? Do you live in a world with a very high standard or narrow point of view? Or both? What are you going to do when you have to quailfy the 18 as a BTM or a BO? Did some 18 get drunk and kick you butt?

And you do dodge more questions than anyone here. At the CG Academy it used to be called gamesmanship and it was encouraged.

Burt, I am gonna try to answer your questions the best I can (without dodging any) although I always thought it was a good idea to dodge bullets - and I am receiving a lot of friendly (I hope) fire on this thread! :D

Ok,
1. I never met an 18 year old coxswain. Most coxswain's I have ever met had at least a year in and joined when they were 18 or older. I made coxswain as a SN after a year on the 210 but I was 20 when I joined. I have never been to a station but I am pretty sure it takes about a year to qualify on most boats (never having been qual'd before) which really makes me question who all of these 18 year old coxswains are and where they are coming from? If someone has a surplus of them send me 1 cause I have two 25+'s I am trying to get qual'd. I refuse to answer the BTM question on the grounds of I am Aton and the T in BTM stands for team - so they will almost always have guidance from their team.

2. I do live in a world with a very high standards; it works for me. I don't think I am narrow minded by any means. I am quite the contrary. I always give consideration to both sides of an argument. Then I choose the side of the one I believe is right and go with it. If evidence or circumstance comes down that shows me different, I am open to changing my stance and admitting it. (ex: calling Senior and Master Chief's by their names rather than titles.)

3. When I have to qualify an 18 year old as a BTM or BO - I am going to be more upset about being assigned to an LE unit than anything. But if the person completes their pqs, shows the maturity and judgement, I will simply qualify them.

4. OK in regards to this question "Did some 18 get drunk and kick you butt?"
Truth be told (and I use that purely for effect - cause we all know I always tell the truth) I have never had my butt kicked by anyone, but I am sure there are people here that get upset at my opinions and would tell you that that's my problem. But to date, no one has ever kicked my butt (not in the sense that you are talking about anyway) and it's not because I can run fast. I did get a black eye from a girl once, but that's a story for another day.

SKC Raymond Kurtz (Ret)

05-22-2007, 01:22 PM

I didn’t see this yet so just let me add this to the discussion.

Maybe, just maybe, the reason why the alcohol consuming age requirement is 21 is because alcohol is a legal mind altering drug if used to excess. There are people that are 50 years old that still cannot handle it (the mean drunks for instance). Maybe the average 18 year old is not mature enough to consume adult beverages.

On the other hand why lump all the responsible 18 year olds in with the few that cause the problems?

If immaturity is the problem, why not raise the minimum age someone can obtain a driver’s license to 21? Have you ever known a 16 – 20 year old driver to act irresponsible behind the wheel, even when stone sober? I have (raising hand). Heck I acted irresponsible behind the wheel when I was well into my 40s.

MSTC Steve Natale

05-22-2007, 02:42 PM

I dont know what effects Alchohol has on the brain, but maybe its best if teenagers dont drink it. It seems that after the age of 21 that most people have completed the maturation of thier brains, physically at least. Maybe, just maybe, letting the brain mature w/o the effects of alchohol being placed upon it is a good thing.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f108/stvdman/prbrainmaturing.jpg

Constructed from MRI scans of healthy children and teens, the time-lapse "movie", from which the above images were extracted, compresses 15 years of brain development (ages 5–20) into just a few seconds. Red indicates more gray matter, blue less gray matter. Gray matter wanes in a back-to-front wave as the brain matures and neural connections are pruned. Areas performing more basic functions mature earlier; areas for higher order functions mature later. The prefrontal cortex, which handles reasoning and other "executive" functions, emerged late in evolution and is among the last to mature. Studies in twins are showing that development of such late-maturing areas is less influenced by heredity than areas that mature earlier.

BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)

05-22-2007, 03:29 PM

I dont know what effects Alchohol has on the brain, but maybe its best if teenagers dont drink it. It seems that after the age of 21 that most people have completed the maturation of thier brains, physically at least. Maybe, just maybe, letting the brain mature w/o the effects of alchohol being placed upon it is a good thing.

Oh come on now..... we are not talking about a daily routine of going to the bar.... sitting there for hourse, drinking shot after shot... we are talking about having a few beers with a hamburger on CG Day....

As you get older you will hear the saying "Age is only a number" Guess what, it is at a younger age as well....

Part of growing up is learning how to deal with things in the real world. That includes alcohol, driving a car, and many other things. Over indulgance, being stupid and irresponsible can get you in trouble at any age, in any situation. Hopefully, the Marines that can drink on their "birthday ball" will have friends to guide them down the right road. As we all know, that won't always happen, and it wouldn't if you made the drinking age 25!

Wray... :cool:

BMC John Phillips III

05-22-2007, 04:10 PM

SJ,

That photo is similar to the one they showed (or maybe the same one) as part of the alcohol awareness training I recently attended. Thanks for providing it, you get my vote for "Voice of Reason" under your name.

It's ironic that I would be questioned as to whether or not I have an open mind. It doesn't seem that there are too many open minds here willing to consider that drinking at a young age "can" harm the brains growth or development.

I also find it interesting that the research shows the development at 20 is less affected by heredity than at younger ages. So maybe alcoholism is not the genes, maybe it's part of the environment. As the link I provided suggests.

BMC Ralph Williams

05-22-2007, 04:44 PM

[QUOTE=The cutters have the ability to enforce US law or embrace local law. It is the commands choice. In the States the drinking age is 21 if you are not old enough than too bad.
[/QUOTE]

That is not true anymore. Military Courts have determined that command orders imposing a more stringent drinking age than local custom are unlawful unless such orders specify a military necessity.

LANT Instruction 1050.1 Paragraph 9 dated 23 Feb 2007 Gives more on it.

There are many studies out there that contradict each other. If my son is old enough to die to protect his country then hes old enough to drink. If we want to make the argument that it should stay 21 then there also should be a stipulation for joining the Military at 21, Drivers license at 21, Marriage at 21 and i could go on and on.

my .02

Ralph

LTJG Brian Strattard (ETC)

05-22-2007, 05:43 PM

And what about all the hub-bub in the medical community about how having a glass of wine each day is healthy? Both camps on that issue say they can back up their side with proven medical statistics. It all boils down to what you believe and what side is more commonly accepted. Maybe it's not the question of to drink or not but to drink in moderation or not??? And are we talking about one beer stopping the growth of the brain or by drowning it with alcohol here??? If both sides of this issue claim to have medical proof, wouldn't it just be decided by the majority of people that believe one side more than the other? If more people here think that the drinking age should be lowered, then majority wins and we say it should be lowered and call it a day. Isn't that the way it's supposed to work, we go with the majority...but what about the individual and where do we draw the line for the good of the people vs the good of the indidual??? Ooopps...would that be a discussion for another thread? Oh well...let's just sit back and have a good discussion over a cool brew...er, I mean beverage...:D

Strat sends...

BMC John Phillips III

05-22-2007, 06:02 PM

If more people here think that the drinking age should be lowered, then majority wins and we say it should be lowered and call it a day. Isn't that the way it's supposed to work, we go with the majority...but what about the individual and where do we draw the line for the good of the people vs the good of the indidual??? Ooopps...would that be a discussion for another thread? Oh well...let's just sit back and have a good discussion over a cool brew...er, I mean beverage...:D

Strat sends...

Brian, I suppose we could put it to a vote, but even so - this would be campaigning right? Those who feel strongly one way or the other could express their opinions and try to get to the undecideds and maybe even sway a few votes from the other side right? I doubt putting it to a vote would do us any good but you get my point. Oh and since you brought up discussing it over cool beverage, make mine a Grey Goose with some OJ ;)

Here is another link I found that has some pretty good answers to common beliefs or misconceptions. There is also some very good statistical information.
http://www.alcoholpolicymd.com/press_room/Media_kits/sb_addressing.htm

BMCM Stuart S. Slesh

05-22-2007, 06:29 PM

John re-read this slowly.

It's ironic that I would be questioned as to whether or not I have an open mind. It doesn't seem that there are too many open minds here willing to consider that drinking at a young age "can" harm the brains growth or development.

It isn't ironic. And go back through this entire thread and find one person who said that drinking at a young age "can't" harm the brains growth or development.

And if you opened your mind just a little, you might be able to see that almost everyone else is advocating the rights of responsible legal adults to engage in legal adult activities, and to engage in them responsibily.

What's ironic, is that you say that everyone else is twisting your words.

And John...... ask around. Most people will tell you that the statement " I've never met an 18 year old that was responsible enough to drink" sounds just a little closed minded. And by a little, I mean in the same way my last comment was a little sarcastic.

BMC John Phillips III

05-22-2007, 07:11 PM

I hear you and you can call it closed minded if you want, but it's true. I have yet to meet an 18 year old that I thought was responsible enough to drink. I am speaking for myself, what's wrong with that? I didn't say they weren't out there. I am sure they are, but I would bet their numbers are low. If I had to put a number on it, I'd say 5-15%?

And I still want someone to show me an 18 year old coxswain. Oh and I am talking today's Coast Guard, not old school CG.

Here's a snip-it from the link I posted:

Finally, the most compelling need for age 21 is the clear evidence that lowering the drinking age in the past has sacrificed public health and safety:

* State motor vehicle fatality data from the 48 continental states found that lowering the drinking age for beer from 21 to 18 resulted in an 11% increase in fatalities among that age group. [25]
* In Arizona, lowering the drinking age increased the incidence of fatal accidents by more than 25% and traffic fatalities by more than 35%.[26]
* Lowering the drinking age in Massachusetts caused an increase in total fatal crashes, alcohol-related fatal crashes, and alcohol-related property damage crashes among 18 to 20 year-old drivers. [27]
* From 1979 to 1984, the suicide rate was 9.7% greater among young people who could legally drink alcohol than among their peers who could not. [28]

BMCM Stuart S. Slesh

05-22-2007, 07:35 PM

And I still say that statistics can say anything that you want them too. I could argue that coincidence played into those findings, but I doubt some people would be interested in hearing that.
But I can't help myself........
* State motor vehicle fatality data from the 48 continental states found that lowering the drinking age for beer from 21 to 18 resulted in an 11% increase in fatalities among that age group. [25] Were those 11% all driving while under the influence?
* In Arizona, lowering the drinking age increased the incidence of fatal accidents by more than 25% and traffic fatalities by more than 35%.[26] Lowering the drinking age did that? Not changes in the weather or road conditions, mechanical failures. That 25/35% could be directly tied to underage drinking and driving?
* Lowering the drinking age in Massachusetts caused an increase in total fatal crashes, alcohol-related fatal crashes, and alcohol-related property damage crashes among 18 to 20 year-old drivers. [27] Again?
* From 1979 to 1984, the suicide rate was 9.7% greater among young people who could legally drink alcohol than among their peers who could not. [28]
Did they tie those suicides soley to alchol? Did drugs or abuse play a factor?

Again we have to look at the culture. Find the statistics of car crashes in Germany or Puerto Rico based on the ages 18-20 vs 21-23.
Or here's a crazy idea...... hold the people who are drinking and driving accountable for their actions, and don't penalize other law abiding adults for the actions of the few.

BMC John Phillips III

05-22-2007, 08:12 PM

You keep throwing out how Puerto Rico doesn't have a problem with alcohol like it's fact. I mean if we were going by what I know and what you know about PR, I would go with you every time...but this link says something different:

Although Puerto Rico is a U.S. commonwealth, it has a distinct culture in many respects, particularly pertaining to alcohol issues and policies. For example, the legal drinking age in Puerto Rico is 18, alcohol consumption is often permitted in public places such as streets and parks, and the rum industry has considerable political influence, as it is vital to the country's economy. Alcohol-related problems such as, underage drinking, and traffic crashes are public health concerns, with Puerto Rico having a higher rate of alcohol-related traffic fatalities than any state in the U.S. in 2001.

http://apha.confex.com/apha/131am/techprogram/paper_71297.htm

Here's another - looks like there might be a problem with alcohol in PR, maybe you just don't see it cause you don't drink. I don't know.

http://www.tendenciaspr.com/Ingles/Drugs_and_Alcohol.html

I am leaving out Germany for the sake of time and reading, I am sure that if I researched it, they are not as problem free as you are implying.

In regards to the questions at the end of each statistic, the numbers at the end are the references. I am sure that the people that put those numbers together ensured that alcohol was a factor in all the cases they included in thier numbers.

one more - http://www.puertorico-herald.org/issues/2002/vol6n51/IslandLeadsDrunkDrivin-en.html

Today, Puerto Rico's alcohol-related death rate is higher than any state's -- 1.38 per 100 million vehicle miles traveled during 2001. South Carolina, Montana, Louisiana and the District of Columbia also have rates of more than one death for every 100 million vehicle miles.

BMCM Deane Smith

05-22-2007, 08:13 PM

Oh come on now..... we are not talking about a daily routine of going to the bar.... sitting there for hourse, drinking shot after shot... we are talking about having a few beers with a hamburger on CG Day....

Wray...you hit the nail on the head with that comment. I can't imagine (although I haven't read any of the reference links) that this type of drinking at any age has long-lasting negative effects on the brain. My brain seems to function just fine...

BMCS Nick Pupo

05-22-2007, 08:22 PM

John, I love when you follow Stu. Are you sure he’s not the sheppard to your little sheep?

Anyway, you said you’ve never met an 18 year old coxswain, neither have I…but. I have met a couple of 18 year olds that were mature enough to be a coxswain but just were not in the position to be given that responsibility.
You also said that you never met an 18 year old that was mature enough to drink. Well I have, in fact, I've met quite a number of 18 year olds who are mature enough to make a decision not to drink.
Finally, you can twist those figures around all you want and I say this “figures lie and liars figure”.

BMC John Phillips III

05-22-2007, 08:29 PM

My brain seems to function just fine...

Are you saying that you have been drinking since 18?

Well I have, in fact, I've met quite a number of 18 year olds who are mature enough to make a decision not to drink.
I can't imagine how you know that. But I guess I fell into that category at 18.

Finally, you can twist those figures around all you want and I say this “figures lie and liars figure”.

Go figure.

For the record, I posted in this thread first so I am not sure about your sheppard comment, but I guess if it was funny to you.

BMC Gene Daigle

05-22-2007, 08:52 PM

I think the CG should stick with the standard of 21. Look at the Healy incident. Moreover, and yes, just because you are of age does not mean you have the self-control or good judgment to drink responsibly. Look at the CO of the Escanaba getting relieved for his AI in Key West last week. Nevertheless, we need to maintain a high standard, and ensure it is the same straight across the board. Then there is no question of who, when, where you can drink. It stays the same. Look at the majority of mishaps. What is the leading cause? Or the Report on Good Order and Discipline. What is the leading cause? Alcohol. Let’s take a few steps forward, without taking two steps back. Times have changed and so have mentalities on these issues from our Core Leadership. This is not a fight we need to have. Issues that are more important should remain our focus for change. Lowering the drinking age is not one of them. Have the Marines be the test subject for failure of leadership on this topic and we can discuss this two years from now.

BMCM Deane Smith

05-22-2007, 08:58 PM

Are you saying that you have been drinking since 18?

John...Prior to the age of 18, I drank beer. Since the age of 18, I've drank beer.

Also, when I was in high school the drinking age in Colorado was 18. Go figure!

BMCM Deane Smith

05-22-2007, 09:05 PM

Gene...did you read the article on how this policy is going to be applied? You make some good points, but I'm just wondering if you read the article?

If you're a Marine on a base overseas and the drinking age is 18 off base, aren't we encouraging our people to drink and drive by not allowing them to drink on base? If you can go off base and drink, it can lead to potential problems. If you can stay on base and drink, aren't those problems minimized?

BMC Gene Daigle

05-22-2007, 09:31 PM

Senior,

It is how the perception of junior members would now think about what they can and cannot do in relation to alcohol that would start to become fuzzy. I do not see everything in black and white, but most with some areas of grey, but this is not one of those topics. Judgment is always altered after having a few. Some can handle it. Many cannot. Some know when to say when. Many choose not to. On base is one thing, but you are not restricted to the base like as if you were in jail. Will keeping it on base prevent someone from doing something stupid on base that will end up getting them NJP or court martial, like a simple disrespectful comment to a senior officer? That productive member will now have a black mark in their record and will affect how they develop professionally. For what?? A chance to drink at 18. Just think back to all the stupid things you may have done in your life that back then since you indicated you did drink at 18 and you could get away with back then but now is not tolerated. Or if you cannot recall, I am sure you know of someone has. There can never be enough safe guards when dealing with underage drinking. Keep it 21 and it becomes engrained in your head on what you can and cannot do. Again, let the Marines run this experiment and we can discuss this when we see some stats (Mishaps and Good Order and Discipline).

BMCM Deane Smith

05-22-2007, 09:39 PM

Gene...I understand what you're saying. But, there isn't a magic responsibility switch that gets flipped on when you turn 21. It's more about responsibility than age. Some 18 yr olds can handle it, some can't. Same goes for 21 yr olds...25 yr olds...50 yr olds.

I just don't have a problem with what the Marines are doing, but you're right...time will tell how it goes.

BMC Gene Daigle

05-22-2007, 10:06 PM

I hope nothing adverse happens either from Class A or B Mishaps or with discipline and members ruining their careers, I just wouldn't bet the farm on it.

BMCM Stuart S. Slesh

05-22-2007, 10:18 PM

John, it's interesting how you keep bringing the talks back around to drinking and driving. Would you care to tell people what the acronym APHA stands for, just so they can see where you're getting your facts. Also post a link to where I said that Puerto Rico doesn't have alcohol problems. Your links don't show a higher number of those accidents being caused by the 20 and under crowd. It is good to see that you can referrence a four year old article to back up your claims too. So Puerto Rico had more alcohol related traffic fatalities than any other state in 2001......... So what changed in the last six years? Their laws haven't gotten stricter. You can still can legally drink at 18.
John....... keeping people from drinking before they're 21 isn't going to stop people from having alcohol related car accidents. Try and stay with me here.......... If people would stop drinking and driving, we would never have another alcohol related car accident.

And John, I think Nick is an excellent judge of character who can see the good in people. He obviously trusts the people who tell him that they aren't the deviant immature people some others make them out to be. I think he is willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, until they show him that they're acting otherwise.

Check around John, not everyone who drinks, drinks and drives. Not everyone who dies in an alcohol related car accident was the person drinking, or the person driving. Not all of them were under 21. Responsible people can drink responsibly. I'll keep saying that until you listen.

It does kinda blow my mind, that someone who sees the evils of alcohol and can't see any reason for drinking......... still does. It does kinda blow my mind that someone who talks about the dangers of alcohol, has gotten behind the wheel himself, even if only once, and for such a short distance.

And John..... you really need to help me with this one....... but because I don't drink, shouldn't my mind be clearer to see the problem? See John, I do see the problem. It isn't alcohol. It isn't that people drink, or at what age they start. It's that people don't drink responsibly.
John, the Marinees came up will a plan. I think that its a good one. Train the people that want to drink, to drink responsibly. I read the article. I didn't read where they encouraged people to drink, or forced anyone to drink. They did provide them with a safer alternative, for the young mature adults that are so inclined. If you stepped to the side of your pulpit you might have a clearer view, and you might be able to see it too.

BMC John Phillips III

05-22-2007, 11:38 PM

If you're a Marine on a base overseas and ......... If you can stay on base and drink, aren't those problems minimized?

BMCS Smith, I thought that was already the standard. It is for border states where the base is less than 50 miles. And I do agree with you in that it is safer to keep them on base as the under 21's that would drink, surely would find a place off base to do it. On the flip side of that and in non-border states or places where the legal drinking age is 21, I disagree. Reason being most clubs (on base) close at 2200 and responsible or not, and I think a lot of 18 year olds get a few beers in them and have only one thing on their mind afterwards that aint going back to the barracks room and taking a cold shower.

Also, I pretty much said the same thing Gene said about our policy makers sitting back and watching how this pans out for the Marines. So I guess we agree on that. To take it a step further, if this is successful for the Marines, I will support whatever policy the Coast Guard decides to go with. I will also continue to talk about being responsible (as well as demonstrating - now more than ever). I am glad that the majority of your drinking was permitted by law. I am just curious how you would handle a situation where one of your under 21's is on the carpet before you for drinking? That's not a situation I would like to be in.

BMCM, from the link I provided - it counters every argument I've seen so far - but then again if it were contrary to my thoughts, I probably wouldn't have provided it would I have? I also like how it debunks the "forbidden fruit" theory. But this is the one you just tried using:

The “Teach Responsible Drinking” Argument:

Critics have argued that lowering the drinking age will encourage young people to be responsible consumers. They'll get an idea of their tolerance and learn to drink under supervision at bars (or on campus, if in college), rather than at uncontrolled private parties away from school. However, there is no evidence to indicate that kids will learn to drink responsibly simply because they are able to consume alcohol legally at a younger age. Countries with lower drinking ages suffer from alcohol-related problems similar to those in the U.S. [14] It was recently reported that New Zealand is considering raising its drinking age to 21 again after rates of teen binge drinking and drunken fighting increased when that country lowered its drinking age to 18 in 1999.

Research documents some promising results for one-on-one interventions with individual problem drinkers to help them moderate their consumption.[15] However, no education program has successfully taught entire populations of youth to drink responsibly. Responsible consumption comes with maturity, and maturity largely comes as certain protective mechanisms, such as marriage and first job, begin to take hold. Providing supervision does not necessarily lead to responsibility. For example, some campuses have student pubs that practice responsible beverage service and cater also to faculty who ostensibly model responsible drinking. No evidence that the presence of such facilities reduces high-risk student drinking in other venues on and around campus.

Many bars, on the other hand, aggressively promote irresponsible drinking by deeply discounting drinks and by heavily promoting specials, such as happy hours, two-for-ones, all-you-can-drink nights, and bar crawls.

BMCM Stuart S. Slesh

05-23-2007, 06:28 AM

First I'll speak for Deane...... Deane holds people accountable to the Coast Guard standard so you can rest assured that his people already know that they will be held accountable. They know they fall under Coast Guard law and aren't grandfathered into Colorado laws that have since been changed. How about you John ? Are you going to give them a break because they brain isn't mature enough to make adult decisions or are you going to hold them to the same standards Deane does?

Secondly....Critics have argued......WOW. And they have yet to find an educational program that taught a whole population..... anything. Get back with me when the critics have proven something.
And John...... in your research let's not compare random college students drinking with their professors with young Marinees drinking with their supervisors. Those Marinees have already married themselves to their service and are established in their first jobs. The odds are in their favor.

Thirdly...with more people drinking, the odds are that more people will be drinking irresponsibly. It works the same with car accidents. The more cars on the road the greater the risk. The more time spent in those cars the greater the risk.

And of course you can link the increase in teen bringe drinking to lowering the legal drinking age. It would have absolutely nothing to due with other influences and a lack of parental involvement.......

BMCM Deane Smith

05-23-2007, 07:23 AM

BMCS Smith, I thought that was already the standard. It is for border states where the base is less than 50 miles. And I do agree with you in that it is safer to keep them on base as the under 21's that would drink, surely would find a place off base to do it. On the flip side of that and in non-border states or places where the legal drinking age is 21, I disagree. Reason being most clubs (on base) close at 2200 and responsible or not, and I think a lot of 18 year olds get a few beers in them and have only one thing on their mind afterwards that aint going back to the barracks room and taking a cold shower.

I am glad that the majority of your drinking was permitted by law. I am just curious how you would handle a situation where one of your under 21's is on the carpet before you for drinking? That's not a situation I would like to be in.

John...I don't know what the old Marine policy is, I just know what the new on is. And, it's a good one. Have you read the article? The reason I ask is that some of your comments make me think that you haven't. Here's one comment from the article thatI think is important...“The authority to drink at age 18 is a privilege, not a right,” according to the message. “This authority shall be administered by the commander based on his assessment of each Marine’s maturity and ability to responsibly execute.” So, it's not a free-for-all, each base commander has to make a judgement call and it sounds like there could be those under 21 that wouldn't be permitted to drink and others that would. Again, the policy is a good one as it's being applied.

You mentioned that 18 yr olds that drink on base wouldn't be able to control themselves after the on-base clubs close at 2200 and would leave base to continue their drinking. At what age does that magically stop happening? Are you saying that a 21 or 25 yr old would not leave base after drinking in lieu of a cold shower?

As far as how I would handle a situation with underaged drinking? I hold people accountable to the policy/law. I've been in the situation (more than once) and I hold the members accountable. What did you think I would do?

BMCS John Brady (Ret)

05-23-2007, 07:32 AM

Burt,

You asked JPIII "Did some 18 get drunk and kick you butt?" Can't confirm that however the list is long and distnguished for the people that would enjoy the opportunity....

****I do not condone violence, but some people need a swift kick in the rear..........

JB

BMCS John Brady (Ret)

05-23-2007, 07:36 AM

My unit recently experienced a tragedy with alcohol as a significant contributing factor. There is no definite way of telling for sure but if the drinking age was 21 this death MAY have been prevented. It is a long and tragic story (still awaiting UCMJ Court Martial charges) and all I can say is that an underage (20) crewmen went to another crewman's apartment to drink, yes the other crewman was of age and provided the drinks. Unfortunately he paid for this decision with his life, this tragedy has devastated a family and the crew was shaken to the core.

I am interested in the USMC program, would like to see the results.

JB

BMCS Dave Considine

05-23-2007, 07:45 AM

John

Sounds like a good story example for quarters. Hopefully the story circulates after the Court Martial. These stories tend to "hit home" with the younger crew. I always thought the local police bringing a wrecked car to the high school was a good deterrent to bad decisions. A former unit I was at had a non-rate that hit and killed a motorcyclist. He was coming back from his home state to stand duty. I am fairly sure he was under the legal drinking age. He is still in a State Penitentiary - tragic all the way around.

BMC John Phillips III

05-23-2007, 07:50 AM

At what age does that magically stop happening? Are you saying that a 21 or 25 yr old would not leave base after drinking in lieu of a cold shower?

Deane, I can't provide you with answers I don't have and you are way too smart for me to try and BS. I will offer you one tidbit though, as BMCM Slesh pointed out, lower the drinking age and you have more people drinking which inevitably increases your numbers across the board. Right now on most bases, no 18 year olds are drinking (well ideally anyway) so if you change that then more will.

As far as how I would handle a situation with underaged drinking? I hold people accountable to the policy/law. I've been in the situation (more than once) and I hold the members accountable. What did you think I would do?

I am absolutely sure that you hold them to the standard. It was a bit of a rhetorical question. The real question is how do you feel inside, punishing someone for something you did and got away with.

BMCS Brady - I like the way you think! I wish I could get a good look at that list of "distinguished" people ;) I would do unto others before they had a chance to do unto me :D Oh and I know you are half-heartedly joking but be careful because your comments aren't in accordance with the rules.

BMCS Pupo, you're not gonna say anything about BMCM Slesh speaking for BMCS Smith??? Golden opportunity...

BMCM Stuart S. Slesh

05-23-2007, 08:02 AM

John Brady, I got the meaning of your post, and I'll speak for the rest of Admin, when I say we thought it was funny.

John, I'll speak for Nick, and say that he doesn't care if I speak for Deane.

BMCS Nick Pupo

05-23-2007, 08:02 AM

John, my comment about you being a sheep was funny to me and I would venture to guess others as well. If you don’t find or didn’t find the humor in it, then I guess it was lost on you. My comment about you being a sheep goes back to a thread a while ago about you having to follow almost every one of BMCM S’s post with a post of your own.

Nope not going to touch BMCM talking for Deane, why should I? Both are able to convey their thoughts in a clear and concise manner, to me anyway.

Anyway more on point. You ask how I can know somebody is mature enough at 18 not to drink. To me it’s simple really, when placed in a position where they could drink they decline. I’m not just talking about Coasties you can go to almost every college and see that there are plenty of 18 year olds that have chosen not to drink or cave to peer pressure. Hopefully that explains how I know an 18 year old can be mature enough not to drink.

BMCM Deane Smith

05-23-2007, 08:06 AM

I don't have and you are way too smart for me to try and BS.

Not trying to BS me?...that's all you've been doing since this thread started.

I am absolutely sure that you hold them to the standard. It was a bit of a rhetorical question. The real question is how do you feel inside, punishing someone for something you did and got away with.

Who said I got away with anything?

But, since you admitted to drinking and driving, how would you feel inside punishing someone who got caught for something you did and got away with? Even though this is not a rhetorical question, I doubt you'll respond...

BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)

05-23-2007, 08:24 AM

Many bars, on the other hand, aggressively promote irresponsible drinking by deeply discounting drinks and by heavily promoting specials, such as happy hours, two-for-ones, all-you-can-drink nights, and bar crawls.

It doesn't take a smart person verly long to figure out it is cheaper to drink at home rather than out at the bars... Drinking is hardly ever "deeply discounted", except in some cases for the women. The days of the quarter draft beer are gone.

As someone that started drinking beer before the age of 18 (I grew up in NY where the drinking age was 18), consumed massive quantities of beer and other alcohol during my college and Coast Guard years, I have never gotten a DUI or had any alcohol problems.... Here again, it's called responsibility. I was able to handle it, and I'm sure many others can as well.

Wray... :cool:

BMC John Phillips III

05-23-2007, 09:34 AM

John Brady, I got the meaning of your post, and I'll speak for the rest of Admin, when I say we thought it was funny.

John, I'll speak for Nick, and say that he doesn't care if I speak for Deane.

I'll speak for you and say you think you speak for everyone. (now that's funny!)

My comment about you being a sheep goes back to a thread a while ago about you having to follow almost every one of BMCM S’s post with a post of your own.

It was funny the first time. but this time it was untrue as I posted a few times in this thread before he even posted once - but I do that a lot.

Nope not going to touch BMCM talking for Deane, why should I? Both are able to convey their thoughts in a clear and concise manner, to me anyway.

Part of my point, if the above is true why would either have to speak on behalf of the other if neither is underway or on leave or something. I think this makes my twin brother joke funny....but that too was funny the first time ;)

To me it’s simple really, when placed in a position where they could drink they decline. I assumed all of this, but the reason I said I don't know how you know is still relevant. Did they tell you they were placed in that position? (I don't want to know - just clarifying my original comments) for the record, I agree with BMCM Slesh's synopsis of your character. It's just that your original wording could be interpretted as you may have witnessed them turning down alcohol or even worse been the person whose offer they turned down.

Not trying to BS me?...that's all you've been doing since this thread started.

Untrue, adds no value to the thread and disrespectful, but you are a member of admin and it won't get red inked.

But, since you admitted to drinking and driving, how would you feel inside punishing someone who got caught for something you did and got away with? Even though this is not a rhetorical question, I doubt you'll respond...

You think you know me. I admitted that I started to drive got less than a block and had my wife drive. Anyway, to my knowledge there is no punishment for that and if one of my people told me they did that, I would pat them on the back for having the sense to stop an error before it got worse. And talk to them about not even getting behind the wheel the next time. The only other circumstance I could see holding one of my people accountable was if I saw them drink and drive (have not seen) or they got into an accident or pulled over for DUI (have seen but haven't done).

ETC Joe Jester (Ret)

05-23-2007, 10:39 AM

Many bars, on the other hand, aggressively promote irresponsible drinking by deeply discounting drinks and by heavily promoting specials, such as happy hours, two-for-ones, all-you-can-drink nights, and bar crawls.

John,

Having specials is not promoting irresponsible drinking. I have yet to see an owner or employee force someone to drink. I have seen owners and employees cut people off. What's next? Chastising store owners for having a sale? You need customers so you can pay your employees and make a profit.

I haven't been to CT in thirteen years, but I'm sure they still are required to serve free finger food if they have a happy hour ... and aggressively have random stops in the New London / Groton area ... not that they are targeting sailors or anything.

BMCM Deane Smith

05-23-2007, 10:44 AM

I think this makes my twin brother joke funny....but that too was funny the first time ;)

John...why is it OK for you to "Joke" that Stu is my twin brother, but when I "Joked" that Bill Wells was your twin brother you took exception to it? You can't have it both ways. Jokes are jokes...

Anyway, to my knowledge there is no punishment for that and if one of my people told me they did that, I would pat them on the back for having the sense to stop an error before it got worse. And talk to them about not even getting behind the wheel the next time. The only other circumstance I could see holding one of my people accountable was if I saw them drink and drive (have not seen) or they got into an accident or pulled over for DUI (have seen but haven't done).

Unless I'm mis-reading your post, you would commend a subordinate that tells you that they were drinking and driving, but hold them accountable if you witnessed the drinking and driving? Is that what you're saying?

BMCS Jim Madsen

05-23-2007, 10:47 AM

John,
So you are saying that it is OK to drink and drive so long as you don't get in a wreck or get pulled over? Well, maybe not OK, but that there will be no consequenses in your shop for drinking and driving as long as there is no "law" involved? Drinking and driving is stupid. Whether it is a block or a hundred miles. You can kill a kid in a block just as easy. You could get in a wreck just backing out of your parking spot. As I said earlier, I advocate obeying the law of the land. If that is 21, so be it. If it is 18, that takes the debate out of it. I also believe that with privledge comes responsibility, and with responsibility comes accountability. The question then becomes, to whom are they accountable? The article says the base commander. If they leave the base, then they become accountable to the judge first, then the base commander. Seems pretty simple to me, and I did a little drinking before my brain was fully developed.

BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)

05-23-2007, 10:48 AM

I haven't been to CT in thirteen years, but I'm sure they still are required to serve free finger food if they have a happy hour ... and aggressively have random stops in the New London / Groton area ... not that they are targeting sailors or anything.

The last few meetings I went to in NOLA, I stayed at the Embassy Suites.... They put on a hell of a spread during "happy hour".. No need for dinner ater that.. ;)

Wray.. :cool:

ETC Joe Jester (Ret)

05-23-2007, 11:04 AM

Wray,

Embassy Suites was the place to stay. I stayed a few times at the Embassy Suites in St Louis and your right ... the manager's icebreakers were great ... [free drinks and the food made a meal]. The complimentary breakfast's weren't bad either.

ETC Joe Jester (Ret)

05-23-2007, 11:25 AM

Story time ... Leadership or not ...

A story from the early 80's ...

A PO2 observed one of his charges and their spouse, both of the MDLA, imbibing a few too many at the White Hats club. The PO2 directed his charge and their spouse back to his barracks room [there was an extra rack in the PO2's room] so the charge wouldn't travel off base to their housing unit in the current condition.

The CO had a policy of no opposite sex types in the barracks and when the MAA noticed the spouse during his round, he placed the PO2 on report, as it was his duty to do so.

There were a number of Chiefs who successfully argued with the CO that the PO2 acted in a manner congruent with the ideals of good leadership and protected his shipmate and the CG-4910 disappeared.

Ask yourself ... did the PO2 act responsibly?

I also know a PO2, in the late 80s, who locked his CPO [and OIC] in the closet because he didn't want the CPO near the equipment during the major casualty. Twenty-one thousand volts will come out to greet you if you get too close to it. It was the PO2's opine that the CPO was impaired ... impaired because no test was done and stating he was drunk would have no standing.

In my opinion both Petty Officers did what they thought was best and acted in the best manner and interest of the Coast Guard.

BMC John Phillips III

05-23-2007, 11:35 AM

John...why is it OK for you to "Joke" that Stu is my twin brother, but when I "Joked" that Bill Wells was your twin brother you took exception to it? You can't have it both ways. Jokes are jokes...

I think we all know that answer to that one.

Unless I'm mis-reading your post, you would commend a subordinate that tells you that they were drinking and driving, but hold them accountable if you witnessed the drinking and driving? Is that what you're saying?

Come on...now who's spreading bs? I didn't say drinking and driving was a good thing by any means. I also never said as long "as they don't get caught" or "I don't see it happen." That's ridiculous. I said what I said, you quoted it. Read it slower and that might eliminate the possibility of mis-reading it. Do you disagree that realizing you should not drive and pulling over as soon as you realize that is something to be punished for? I realize that option A is not ever drinking and driving at all, but hey we all make mistakes right? Kind of like drinking under the age of 18 - it should never happen but it does. You admitted to drinking under 18 - maybe if you hadn't you wouldn't mis-read so many of my posts.

BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)

05-23-2007, 12:18 PM

Kind of like drinking under the age of 18

Of course on one has ever done that.. Right............... :rolleyes:

Just like no one has ever masterbated, or had pre-marital sex... Right....... :rolleyes:

If you guys are gonna throw the cards on the table, play the game!

Wray... :cool:

BMCS Jim Madsen

05-23-2007, 01:10 PM

See what happens... Just the talk of drinking under age has gotten this conversation into a game of "spin the bottle".

BMCS Burt Ford

05-23-2007, 01:15 PM

JB thats was FUNNY!

JPIII, I have never qualified anyone at 18 but like Nick said I know people who coudl have. I have qualified a BDS at 18. I know someone who ws 41 coxswain in the 80's, you know old guard. Lets talk about that, you bash Deane for admitting he drank back then. That was the old Guard John. You are WAY too young to have a clue what it was like in the 80's. Hell you barley know the 90's. Let me paint you a picture, I was 18 and fresh out of Boot camp. My first beer bought underway, in port was from my OINC. The drinking age was 21. He bought the first round for everyone. He ensured people acted responsibly. He sent people home if they drank too much. Was this right? I drank back then and I owe Deane a cold one now, but I have never had an incident. In fact, never even been close. Why? Stu has told you over and over. Its not that I am old but I have drank responsibly since i came in-AT 18!

I will ask you this, since you say there has never been a mature enough 18 year old to drink, what if our policy changes or you end up in PR? It is painfully obvoius you will not support a new policy or a current on overseas. It is interesting that you did not consider your self mature enough when you were 18.

BMCS Nick Pupo

05-23-2007, 01:35 PM

John, you can interpret my comments about knowing any way you want. You can even accuse me of offering a person under the age of 18, that’s up to you.
Again, I will state that I do know people who are under 18 who are mature enough not to drink. Believe it or not, again that’s up to you.

Additionally, I don’t fully get the “twin brother” joke so the humor is lost on me.

BMC John Phillips III

05-23-2007, 03:58 PM

Lets talk about that, you bash Deane for admitting he drank back then.
I didn't think I was bashing him and if that is the perception, I apologize to him and anyone who saw it that way.

That was the old Guard John. You are WAY too young to have a clue what it was like in the 80's. Hell you barley know the 90's.

I know early 90's and stories of the 80's. You cannot assume what I know I may have lived some of the 80's first or second hand - my step father was in the CG in the 80's and he was a raging alcoholic - hmmm. Oh and if you are wondering, no I didn't live with him and no he didn't beat me or my mother. I witnessed the behavior of more than one 1st class and higher that were retiring shortly after my entry into the service. I know that it was a different time and era in the CG and I am quite thankful that I was not a part of it. Smoking on the mess deck? Other bad things I have heard of that tell me today's CG is better for people than yesterdays.

Let me paint you a picture, I was 18 and fresh out of Boot camp. My first beer bought underway, in port was from my OINC. The drinking age was 21. He bought the first round for everyone. He ensured people acted responsibly. He sent people home if they drank too much. Was this right?

No that was not right and if it happened today and anyone caught wind of it, he'd be relieved immediately.

I drank back then and I owe Deane a cold one now, but I have never had an incident. In fact, never even been close. Why? Stu has told you over and over. Its not that I am old but I have drank responsibly since i came in-AT 18!

I am certain that you drink responsibly and I am glad that you have never had a problem with alcohol. I stand by that at 18 - you and a few others like you that have posted here are the exception to the rule. Hell you all made it to Chief so I am certain you are responsible. How many never made it to Chief? I personally know of one non-rate that came in to this service that drank before he was in the CG (under 18) continued to drink after joining the CG, got kicked out of the CG for the same thing and is now dead. From what I heard - it was an alcohol related death. Sadly, he was a good performer and was very intelligent (passed DWO as a non-rate), but giving in to the alcohol took all that away from him. I am entitled and have to believe that he was unable to beat the demon based on starting at such an early age.

I will ask you this, since you say there has never been a mature enough 18 year old to drink, what if our policy changes or you end up in PR? It is painfully obvoius you will not support a new policy or a current on overseas. It is interesting that you did not consider your self mature enough when you were 18.

I have to quote myself here-

I just haven't met any 18 year olds I thought were responsible enough to consume alcohol. I doubt the reason is because the US Marine Corps has recruited them all.

To take it a step further, if this is successful for the Marines, I will support whatever policy the Coast Guard decides to go with. I will also continue to talk about being responsible (as well as demonstrating - now more than ever).

As you can see, I never said that there has never been an 18 year old mature enough to drink, only that I had never met one: In my mind if there is an 18 year old mature enough to drink, they are mature enough to wait until they are 21 - or refuse a drink as BMCS Pupo stated. I am also not sure where you got it that I was not mature enough at 18. But I would agree if you said I was physiologically mature enough. I also said that I would support a policy change if it came about.

John, you can interpret my comments about knowing any way you want.

BMCS Pupo, I didn't interpret it that way, I was just saying that it "could be interpretted as you may have witnessed them turning down alcohol or even worse been the person whose offer they turned down." I also said that I agreed with BMCM Slesh when he said, "I think Nick is an excellent judge of character who can see the good in people. He obviously trusts the people who tell him that they aren't the deviant immature people some others make them out to be. I think he is willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, until they show him that they're acting otherwise."

BMCM Deane Smith

05-23-2007, 04:17 PM

You admitted to drinking under 18 - maybe if you hadn't you wouldn't mis-read so many of my posts.

John...do you wonder why so many people are responding to your posts? I'll tell you...It's because when people read your posts you come off like a holier-than-thou know-it-all. That's the reality of it. Maybe you don't mean to, but that's how your posts come off. You also have a habit of making comments (like the one above) that you would take offense to if someone had said that to you. It's hypocritical and you can't have it both ways.

BMC John Phillips III

05-23-2007, 04:29 PM

You are right, it does sound bad. I apologize.

For the record, I don't consider myself a hypocrite or a know it all, maybe a "know-a-lot" :D If I were a know-it-all, I would have got a 150 on the SWE. Two things I know better than anyone else is, what I mean when I say something. That's why I get upset when people misquote me or try to say I am saying something I am not. That's probably what lead to my comments about you mis-reading me. Another part of it is that I perceive myself as being pretty clear in what I am saying and I get frustrated when others don't get it or see it as something different.

ETC Ben DiGuilio

05-23-2007, 05:13 PM

WOW!!

11 pages later, I would like to add/modify what I said on post #2 of this thread.....

I read the article and I think that if it is carried out as written, I agree with the decision. However I stand by my statement of The law in the US is 21.

I have no problem with beer/wine being served at Coast Guard functions I just feel that it can't be the only thing attracting participants.

As for the Finding of Military Courts regarding host nation drinking ages, I did not know that. I still think that it fits into the "Liberty risk" Policy

BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)

05-23-2007, 06:19 PM

John,
I was told many years ago... "There is a fine line between being confident and cocky"... I know.. I walked that line too... ;)

I'm not saying you were either... Just a little something for you to keep in mind.

Wray... :cool:

BMC John Phillips III

05-23-2007, 10:15 PM

The question of the day is, are/were we like that because were are Boatswain's Mates or are we Boatswain's Mates because we are like that?

OSC Delain Tate

05-25-2007, 03:35 PM

Wow...all this talk about drinking is making me thirsty!

I haven't read the article yet, but I've always thought if you’re old enough to die for our country, then your old enough to drink.

-Delain

BMC John Phillips III

05-25-2007, 08:09 PM

Master Chief,

Again we have to look at the culture. Find the statistics of car crashes in Germany or Puerto Rico based on the ages 18-20 vs 21-23.
Or here's a crazy idea...... hold the people who are drinking and driving accountable for their actions, and don't penalize other law abiding adults for the actions of the few.

To a certain extent, I agree with not punishing everyone for the actions fo a few, but if you read what you wrote below, I'd say that's good enough reason not to lower the drinking age. So maybe they don't drink and drive that much in Germany, but apparently they still put themselves in life-threatening situations with alcohol. If you believe that lowering the drinking age will not increase drinking and driving accidents/deaths in the US based on Germany's 18-21 dui fatalities, then surely you must believe it will increase 18-21 suicides as it did in Germany?

Just went through the D1 suicide prevention training at the unit, and listened to the speaker from the safety stand down at another. That's where I getting my information from. They both said the the numbers are not historically on the rise and that alcohol and relationship problems are the leading components in CG cases. ................That's also the way I've seen it in my career. I'm prior service Army and my unit in Germany had the highest suicide rate in all of Europe. In all of the cases I saw there, drugs and alcohol played a major role. Same in my personal life, drugs and alcohol allow you to do things that you wouldn't do normally do if you were thinking clearly. They don't make you do them, but they do allow it. ...................Their situation had to be dire to kill themselves sober.

That last sentence almost makes it seem like you were shocked they were not drinking when they killed themselves.

BMCM Stuart S. Slesh

05-26-2007, 07:23 AM

Ahhh Noooo John. The suicide rates that we had weren't because people had alcohol issues. They drank to give themselves the courage to go through with ending their lives. They didn't kill themselves because they couldn't handle alcohol, they killed themselves because they didn't want to handle anything. And they weren't all 18-20 when they did it.
I don't know if you've heard John, but alcohol is a depressant. If you're depressed when you drink, alcohol helps you down that road. Healthy happy people don't just intentionally kill themselves after a couple of drinks. People who are thinking with a sober mind are more likely, in my opinion, to come up with an alternative. People who drink or do drugs prior to attempting their own lives, are looking for the courage to follow through on a decision they already made. People who attempt suicide have thought about it prior to that moment.
John, I never said that people in Germany don't drink and drive. I also never said that lowering the drinking age would increase the number of people drinking and driving. It will increase the number of people who are of legal age that are drinking and driving.
Four things will lower the number of people drinking and driving in this country,...... Tougher laws, fewer cars, banning alcohol, or ensuring that only responsible people drink. Which one do you think we'll see in our lifetime?

John, post Germany's 18-21 DUI fatalities, don't just referrence them. And I want the number of 18-21 year olds that were actually driving not just the number in the car. And make sure that it only contains those that were at fault and whose BAC was above .08. You don't get to throw in any amount of alcohol in the system because we don't have a State yet that covers that law on their books.

And John, post the suicide rates in Germay for 18-21 year olds based on alcohol while you're at it. The ones I talked about were American Military men stationed in Germany,....not Germans. And John, do you know what the common link was in everyone of them ? Helplessness, hopelessness, and an overwhelming sense of being alone. Most of them were having relationship issues. The few remaining never had anyone to talk to about how they felt. Maybe we should keep people from interacting with each other in an adult manner until their brain is fully developed.......

John, I've seen men do stupid things over a woman. I've seen women don't stupid things over a man. Let's not blame alcohol for everything that goes wrong in the world. People don't drink and drive "because" of the alcohol..... they drink and drive because they take no accountability for their own actions. I'm sorry, I should have mentioned that sooner.

And John, when you quote me, read the whole quote. You can red letter what you think supports your arguement, what's still in black letters continues to support mine. Alcohol doesn't make you do anything. It allows you to do what you want to. Don't blame alcohol, blame the individual. Don't punish the law abiding, punish the offenders.

Watch how successful this program becomes for the Marinees. They'll treat people like adults, and those adults will act accordingly.

BMC John Phillips III

05-26-2007, 07:38 PM

Healthy happy people don't just intentionally kill themselves after a couple of drinks. People who are thinking with a sober mind are more likely, in my opinion, to come up with an alternative. ...... People who attempt suicide have thought about it prior to that moment.

Master Chief, I agree with you. I also say that the most tumultuous time in a young adult's life are the years of 18-20 (that's my opinion) now throw adapting to military life on top of that and now all of the sudden your normal happy and healthy person is potentially contemplating suicide and as you stated, alcohol is the kicker needed to follow through with it.

I also never said that lowering the drinking age would increase the number of people drinking and driving. It will increase the number of people who are of legal age that are drinking and driving.
Looks like we are both saying the same exact thing, just choosing different words to say it.

Four things will lower the number of people drinking and driving in this country,...... Tougher laws, fewer cars, banning alcohol, or ensuring that only responsible people drink. Which one do you think we'll see in our lifetime?
I would go with tougher laws and in my mind lowering the legal drinking age is not making anything tougher. Would you say that we're more likely to see one of the other 3?

John, post Germany's 18-21 DUI fatalities, don't just referrence them. And I want the number of 18-21 year olds that were actually driving not just the number in the car. And make sure that it only contains those that were at fault and whose BAC was above .08. You don't get to throw in any amount of alcohol in the system because we don't have a State yet that covers that law on their books.
Come on, I am not going to post the stats - if I do they will probably be outdated. Oh and IRT the PR stats I provided being outdated I am sure there were more updated ones, but just not in english. Anyway, I don't get to throw out any amount of alcohol in the system for driving accidents then how do you get to for suicides? What ever happened to "what's good for the goose?"

And John, post the suicide rates in Germay for 18-21 year olds based on alcohol while you're at it. The ones I talked about were American Military men stationed in Germany,....not Germans. And John, do you know what the common link was in everyone of them ? Helplessness, hopelessness, and an overwhelming sense of being alone. Most of them were having relationship issues.
I wonder how many of those feelings could be used to describe a young marine just returning from war, who likely lost a friend or two there, comes back to find out his girlfriend is dating someone else, etc.. I'm just saying....

And John, when you quote me, read the whole quote. You can red letter what you think supports your arguement, what's still in black letters continues to support mine. Alcohol doesn't make you do anything. It allows you to do what you want to. Don't blame alcohol, blame the individual. Don't punish the law abiding, punish the offenders.

See I just thought that the black ink was less important than the red and to me it just says that you can site the negative effects of alcohol for the sake of your argument, but I can't for mine....there's that goose again.

I doubt that anyone truly wants to kill themselves, they just think they do. I am sure most psychologists would agree. I also doubt anyone wants to get behind the wheel with the intention of killing anyone but you said, alcohol allows them to do things they want to do. I just think it makes them more likely to do something they wouldn't ordinarily do when they were sober. I am not saying that alcohol does that for everyone.

Watch how successful this program becomes for the Marinees. They'll treat people like adults, and those adults will act accordingly.
I don't want to be pegged as a glass half empty kind of guy, but I don't hardly see this working out...time will tell.

BMCM Stuart S. Slesh

05-27-2007, 12:11 AM

John, I'll make this short, get someone else to read my posts to you. I'm not saying anything close to what you're reading.

I'll try and keep this simple. Alcohol in the hands of a responsible adult has no ill effects whatsoever. Alcohol in the hands of anyone else can be deadly. There is no age when responsibility kicks in. One responsible person can start teaching another person about responsibility before that second person learns to walk.

I doubt that anyone truly wants to kill themselves, they just think they do. I am sure most psychologists would agree. John, you say this, and you've never met an 18 year old who was responsible enough to drink. You need to get out more........ Let me put your doubts to rest....... if someone puts the barrel of a loaded shotgun in their mouth, and pulls the trigger.......they really want to die. If a psychologist can't see that, they need a psychologist themself.

BMC John Phillips III

05-27-2007, 12:25 AM

Let me put your doubts to rest....... if someone puts the barrel of a loaded shotgun in their mouth, and pulls the trigger.......they really want to die. If a psychologist can't see that, they need a psychologist themself.

You are absolutely right when you say you have a tendency to over-simplify.

I searched "suicide, why do people kill themselves" and this is the first link that came up. Now I don't know about Traci Pierson's credentials, but I Am thinking they are pretty good since the Suicide and Mental Health Association International posted her work. Anyway, here's what she says:

"...they are consumed with emotional, and many times, physical pain that becomes unbearable. They don't see any way out. They feel hopeless and helpless. They don't want to die, but it's the only way they feel their pain will end."

http://suicideandmentalhealthassociationinternational.org/suiquest.html

BMCM Stuart S. Slesh

05-27-2007, 02:24 PM

Well John, I don't know what her creditials are either. I would hazard a guess that she never interviewed someone who actually killed themself. I would agree that many people who talk about suicide are looking for someone to talk them out of it.....or to over-simplify.... they're looking for help. Maybe Traci could get together with Jack and ask him how he got those people he video taped to say they wanted to die when Traci says they really didn't. See John, those people weighed all their options, and they think Traci doesn't know what she's talking about. They really wanted to die. Sometimes the people who knew and loved them the most, helped them carry out their final wishes. Tell Traci to go talk to their families. I think Traci would tell you the same thing I did, read her whole quote, not just the part that serves your cause.

BMC John Phillips III

05-27-2007, 03:03 PM

Bottom line is, lowering the drinking age to 18 for anyone is a bad idea. Especially young Marines/military. Saying it's ok to drink sometimes is a bad idea.

Anyone who thinks that 18 year olds can drink responsibly may be right, anyone that thinks 18 year olds will drink responsibly are probably wrong. Just go to youtube or yahoo videos and search "after prom party" to see what kind of drinking the majority of 18 year olds do. They call it "binge-drinking" which is hardly responsible. You may even spot one or two responsible 18 year olds at the beginning of the party....

Master Chief, I know we are never gonna agree, cause like you say, "One of us has to be wrong." I realize this may be a first for you but....you could still answer my calls :D

BMCM Stuart S. Slesh

05-27-2007, 03:37 PM

John, in order for you to be right about this, almost everyone else has to be wrong. What are the odds.

And quit using the word majority. Without facts, you're guessing at best. Also "especially Marinees/Military".....??????? Let's go with especially the college students that have those u-tube/myspace accounts...... you know, the ones that you already have footage of. Let's go with those Marinees were responsibile enough to get though boot camp. Take a minute and listen to yourself John. If you're right, I'd rather be wrong.

Let's just ban alcohol John. Some people can't handle it. Let's keep it away from everyone. Then we can get rid of cars. 18 year olds can't handle that either, so lets go back to horse and buggy. Better yet, let's all walk, we don't need any five buggy pile-ups on our conscience.

BMCS Jim Madsen

05-27-2007, 04:03 PM

John,
You are hunting Quail with a bazooka. You Tube stuff that you refer to is "uncontrolled" binge drinking. The same thing happens at most colleges and universities. (I am just assuming on the You Tube part, because I didn't actually look it up) I am quite sure that the limited allowance of 18+ year olds in the Marines that will be authorized to ocasionally have an "adult beverage" will occur in a "controlled environment". I think you need to look at the bigger picture. This in not a free for all. This is not opening up the package store to 18 year olds. This is limited occasions when age will not be a discriminitory factor when it comes to someone that wears the uniform to have an adult beverage with their comrads in arms. The 18 year olds that want to drink are already doing it behind your back in an uncontrolled environment.

BMC John Phillips III

05-27-2007, 04:26 PM

Jim, I am not a big hunter, but when I was little my favorite green army guy was the one with the bazooka, so you may be on to something. Anyway, that's funny. I hear what you are saying about controlled and uncontrolled environments. Overall, I still don't think it's a good idea that's all.

In a somewhat related scenerio, I have a former E6 Marine MP in my crew (E3 now), I asked him in passing, what he thought about the Marines lowering the drinking age without saying anything else, without giving it a second thought, he stated, "I think it's stupid!" He seemed pretty adamant about it, but he had a dental appt and I didn't want to hold him up from that. I told him ok and that I'd like to talk to him more about it when we get some time. I do know already that he has responded to several incidents as an MP on a Marine base. And just to cut anyone off at the pass, this guy is not the type that would tell me what he thinks I want to hear.

BMC Gene Daigle

06-03-2007, 09:23 PM

I agree with you JPIII. A controlled environment does not mean those same "Responsible" 18 year old will make it back to their barracks without a good possibility of doing something so stupid on base that it will affect the rest of their, what could be a very short, military career. There can't be enough controlled measures to keep them controlled from their own stupidity. I guess that drink at the age of 18 will be worth it right?

By the way. Has anyone recently gone through the CDAR training within the last three months? Ask someone what the 3-1-1 rule is. May want to see what a member will be now designated as an "Abuser" after an incident or even a situation by the current standards. Unless you don't drink at all, we all are screwed. Don't go to a Chief function again. I will be tagged as an abuser. Mike I think you would be placed on the "Dependant" status. And everyone who is on the side of allowing those to drink at 18, are on the wrong side of the fence, respectfully speaking that is.

EMC Travis Parks

06-28-2007, 01:19 PM

Seems to me that all these discussions about alcohol start in the wrong place. Maybe where they should start is, "What should America do about alcohol?". Maybe followed by, "What constitutes full adulthood? Should there be an intermediary stage?"
After all by any reasonable medical standard alcohol and tobacco should be regulated by the FDA, just like valium or marijuana. Alcohol is a powerful personality altering drug, no doubt about it. The way I see it there are four options available to us as a nation.
Also the whole who is an adult contradiction is equally ridiculous. Let me get this straight you can elect to expose yourself to hostile fire in a faraway land, choose the president, and enter in to a contract, but you can't expose yourself to the dangers of Sam Adams. There needs to be a middle ground. Clearly most people want a halfway ground on certain issues. Lets figure out what it is and apply it across the board.

A. Ban all drugs, alcohol included, implement harsh prison sentences and excecutions for users and dealers. This seems to work well in some totalitarian regimes.

B. Continue with the horrible status quo and all it's inherent contradictions and shortcomings.

C. Allow some less dangerous drugs (as judged by a consistent medical standard) to be used by adults. Possibly allow a training period for semi-adults to use drugs in a supervised environment (at your parents house, a command function etcetera).

D. Smoke up Johnny! Everything is legal. Have a crack sandwich for breakfast.

I think when you look at this from a standpoint of what is reasonable vice what is easy to do the answers become clear to all but a few idealogues

BMCM Stuart S. Slesh

07-01-2007, 04:30 PM

Travis, Alcohol is only a personality altering drug if you allow it to be. Millions of people drink responsibly and their personality remains as it was.

And while tobacco is not a drug, both alcohol and tobacco are regulated by the government.

EMC Travis Parks

07-03-2007, 12:54 PM

Stuart,
Alcohol even in moderation is a personality altering drug. You can believe what you want but the medical evidence is clear on this one. It just so happens that in moderation the personality changes caused by alcohol are generally considered good (here is just one source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_alcohol_on_the_body#Moderate_doses)

Tobacco and Alcohol are regulated by the government by a totally different set of standards than all other drugs. If they were judgjed by the same set of standards as all other, tobacco would most certainly be a schedule one narcotic (like heroin or crack), and alcohol likely schedule III.

Don't get me wrong. I am a nicotine addict and user. Though I intend to do something about the user part, and I also use alcohol (in moderation at course). I wouldn't use or advocate the use of illegal drugs even if I weren't a gov't employee, but I am objective enought to say that a double standard exists, and I firmly believe that double standards beget trouble.

BMCS Dennis Endicott (Ret)

07-03-2007, 02:13 PM

Travis-
You may be correct in your argument, but be wary of using wikipedia as a source. If you were not already aware, you can make an entry of wikipedia if you so desired.

BMC John Phillips III

07-03-2007, 06:01 PM

Millions of people drink responsibly and their personality remains as it was.

BMCM - you say that like it's a fact - reminds me of someone else that posted his opinions as fact.

Not sure if I posted this before - it's been a while, but this site has some excellent information for anyone who is on the fence as to where they stand on the issue. http://www.alcoholpolicymd.com/press_room/Media_kits/sb_addressing.htm
It addresses a lot of common arguments you hear like, teaching young people to drink responsibly at a younger age.

BMCM Stuart S. Slesh

07-03-2007, 07:57 PM

John, could you be a little more vague, I'm not sure who I remind you of.......
and are you also claiming that alcohol that alters everyone's personality who drinks it.

Travis, where is medical research clear about alcohol being a personality altering substance? I could show you where is affects your motor skills, but you're going to have to provide the evidence of it affecting their personality.

BMC John Phillips III

07-03-2007, 11:37 PM

Master Chief,

I just don't know where you got that millions of people drink responsibly without changes to their personality. I do agree with you in that it would be nice to have some good information supporting such a claim (alcohol changing personalities). Personally, I have known quite a few people that seem to make a complete personality transformation after drinking; can't think of one case where the changes were for the better. Then again, I am sure that they were not drinking responsibly, a skill that is either falling by the wayside or never really existed.

MKC Craig Thorngren (Ret)

07-04-2007, 08:56 AM

I think "personality" is the wrong choice of words here. A persons inhibition level may be lowered by drinking (I seem to recall it starts happening around a .05% BAC), but to say that it's changing their personality just seems too broad. If anything I would say that it doesn't change their personality, it brings out their personality, i.e. an unhappy or disgruntled person becomes a "mean drunk", a happy positive individual becomes "the life of the party". Sorry I don't have any sources to sight, just a couple of decades experience watching (OK and participating:rolleyes: ) & observing people drink.

Craig

BMCM Stuart S. Slesh

07-04-2007, 10:14 AM

Craig, you're with me on the personality issue.... John, are you seeing that change in people who drink, or people who get drunk? I've known quite a few people I didn't mind hanging around with while they were drinking. I've never enjoyed the company of someone who was drunk, unless I was too drunk to notice how drunk they were.
I also don't understand your drinking responsibly comments. Some people will always be responsible for their own actions, others won't. Are you saying that no one can drink responsibly or did I read that wrong?

BMCS Burt Ford

07-05-2007, 02:15 PM

JPIII are you saying that everyone who drinks is irresponsible? That is a simple minded way to think. As I said before, I think you really got you behind kicked by a drunk person.

BMC John Phillips III

07-05-2007, 04:47 PM

If anything I would say that it doesn't change their personality, it brings out their personality, i.e. an unhappy or disgruntled person becomes a "mean drunk", a happy positive individual becomes "the life of the party".

Craig, I think you've got it right. But I want to add, I have seen some people get drunk and be happy but then something goes wrong and they do a 180 and are ready to fight the world.

Master Chief, I have seen changes in people that pick up just one drink. I guess everyone's definition of drinking or being drunk is different. I am sure that that is the reason why I believe we should not lower the drinking age.

Burt, I could take offense to that simple-minded comment if it were coming from someone who was not a BM ;) but seriously, people can drink responsibly, even millions of people, my only question was the "millions of people drink responsibly and their personality remains as it was" comment. I know it was a general statement, but there is really nothing to support that as being a true statement. I see it as more of an exaggerated opinion.

BMCS John Brady (Ret)

07-05-2007, 11:52 PM

JPIII are you saying that everyone who drinks is irresponsible? That is a simple minded way to think. As I said before, I think you really got you behind kicked by a drunk person.

Burt I would be very careful JPIII might sick the moderators on you.....
Besides, no need to be drunk a sober butt kicking would do just fine, he seems to have issues with them sober folks as well.

And I saw his response about simple minded BM did he forget he was one??? In any event I know you are a very complex and intriguing individual.

Best to ignore, eventually he will get too busy with his OER's to mess around here.

Oh yes 20 days and a wake up.

BMC John Phillips III

07-06-2007, 11:16 AM

John - I answered the first question, the BM comment was saying that if he were another rate and calling me simple minded that I might be offended. You know, because other rates like to make fun of BM's for not being so smart. Get it now???

For the record since I didn't find it funny the first time and you probably didn't catch my reply to it. I have never had my butt kicked period and it's not because I can run fast. Then again (same as last time) I am sure you and a few others would think that's what my problem is. I stand by the fact that I don't have any problems but nobody knows me like I know me :D

oh and I thought Burt was one of the moderators?

BMCS Burt Ford

07-06-2007, 12:55 PM

JPIII are you saying that everyone who drinks is irresponsible? That is a simple minded way to think. As I said before, I think you really got you behind kicked by a drunk person.

JP,
Re-read that post please. I never said "hey john, you are simple minded!" I said "JPIII are you saying that everyone who drinks is irresponsible? That is a simple minded way to think."

And the last sentance was a joke and I still think it i is funny:D . But if you don't I wont bring it up again.

EMC Travis Parks

07-06-2007, 03:56 PM

Dennis,
I chose the wikipedia entry because it is accessible to everyone, where a peer reviewed study might not be.

Stuart,
Here is one scholarly article that measures alcohols effects on just one personality trait, aggression: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bbushman/bc90.pdf

Oh but I worn you it may provoke a F.R.A.T. response.

Travis

BMC John Phillips III

07-06-2007, 05:50 PM

Burt, I am not that sensitive ;) so don't sweat it.

Travis, I heard a report on Hannity and Combs that talked about there was a lot of alcohol in Chris Beniot's home and speculation at least that it was more likely the killings were alcohol related and not "Roid-rage," but blaming it on the steroids makes for a "sexier" news story than alcohol (especially with all the steroids and baseball talk). Anyway, it will be interesting once the toxicology report comes out on that one. They did give a number on how many of that type murder/suicide situations are alcohol related but I didn't catch the number.

BMCM Stuart S. Slesh

07-08-2007, 08:49 PM

Travis, sorry, not putting too much stock into those studies. So people who murder, assault or rape, also abuse alcohol. Where are the personality profiles on those same people before they commited their crimes. I would argue that they probably built up to commiting those crimes after a lifetime of similar behaviors. If you could show where everyone who drank, or at least the majority of people who drink, become more aggresive..... or show me where a person who never commited a crime before in their life,...had one drink, and became aggresive enough to assault, rape, or murder someone else, ...I would be more willing to acknowledge that alchol altered that one person's personality.
How many people do you know that have spent a lifetime drinking, and never committed a violent crime?

I think if you looked at the same people that those studies did you could find alot more similarities in their lives. Some of those things could include being abused themselves, growing up without a positive male role model, abusing drugs, their social/economic background, the level of their education...........

ETC Joe Jester (Ret)

07-08-2007, 09:41 PM

Of the fourteen studies outlined in the table three, eight were statistically non-significant. I've often wondered how many times a statistically significant subject is proven true.

In "The effects of expectancy of receiving either marijuana or alcohol on subsequent aggression in provoked high and low users of these drugs." Alioto, 1974, it's interesting that The results showed that subjects who expected marijuana were least aggressive, whereas those who expected alcohol were most aggressive.
Was this the test subjects psyche reaching the expected euphoric condition?

Reminds me of the old cassette tape commercial ... is it live? or is it memorex.

Take every study with a grain of salt.

Falling into the "popular opinion" doesn't make it right ... nor does it make it wrong. Everytime those damm humans get involved, things can go awry.

BMC John Phillips III

07-09-2007, 09:17 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070709/ap_on_he_me/anti_addiction_pill
miracle cure for smoking and drinking? I wonder if the pill itself becomes addictive?

ETC Joe Jester (Ret)

07-10-2007, 12:29 PM

Remember this little tidbid I found at http://davidmlane.com/hyperstat/A71266.html

A statistically significant effect is not necessarily practically significant.

A few quotes:

There are three kinds of lies: lies, dammed lies, and statistics.
-Disraeli

I have a great subject [statistics] to write upon, but feel keenly my literary incapacity to make it easily intelligible without sacrificing accuracy and thoroughness.
-Sir Francis Galton

Round numbers are always false.
-Samuel Johnson

BMC John Phillips III

07-10-2007, 04:00 PM

anyone read the mishap that took place with the 19 year old that had been attached to his unit for 3 weeks - none if his new friends (or shipmates if you are so inclined) knew he was 19 :rolleyes:

EMC Travis Parks

07-13-2007, 05:54 PM

Falling into the "popular opinion" doesn't make it right ... nor does it make it wrong. Everytime those damm humans get involved, things can go awry.

Joe,

I am not equipped to mount a defense of that study, so I will concede your point. However, there are a few things that I will accept unless a better understanding is reached

Evolution Happens

Alcohol is a personality altering drug

The earth is not 6,000 years old

The holocaust happened

we did land on the moon

Not everybody agrees with all those statements, but well you see my point?

ETC Joe Jester (Ret)

07-13-2007, 06:46 PM

Travis,

Certainly people will agree and disagree with each of those.

On the age of the earth and evolution, no one, has yet successfully answered the question "how does' God's timescale compare to ours? Evolution and Creationism can co-exist, but those damm humans again, want to express things based on their limited knowledge and vilify anything the opposition states.

There are studies, non-scientific personal observations, that show the agressive tendencies of some when they imbibe. It's part of the human nature to profile such things in each and everyone of us.

That doesn't make those who disagree with that assessment, based on their own profiling, wrong ... it's just different experiences.

BMC John Phillips III

07-13-2007, 10:43 PM

Trav,

Not to totally derail the discussion, but you can bet that if the Japanese are planning a moon landing (and they are still a few years off) that we might not have almost 40 years ago. :D

BMC John Phillips III

07-17-2007, 04:39 PM

B I heard a report on Hannity and Combs that talked about there was a lot of alcohol in Chris Beniot's home and speculation at least that it was more likely the killings were alcohol related and not "Roid-rage,"

turns out you can't believe everything you see on TV.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070717/ap_on_re_us/wrestler_dead

Benoit's body contained 10 times the normal level of testosterone, which appeared to have been injected shortly before he died, as well as the anti-anxiety drug Xanax and the painkiller hydrocodone, authorities said.

The Georgia Bureau of Investigation said Benoit tested negative for alcohol.

EMC Travis Parks

07-19-2007, 10:13 AM

John,
There are folks out there are adamant in there disbelief of these widely accepted positions, despite the preponderence of the evidence. Ironically many of them believe in things that are much more difficult to comprehend; for example a reptilian new world order conspiracy that controls our government as well as the EU and the UN, or afternoon chats with a supreme being who created the universe. I'm not saying there crazy or wrong, but it sure seems likely that they are.
As for Benoit I blame the Xanax. Taking antianxiety drugs when you (presumably) don't need them, combined with having a testosterone level that is three times higher than a 17 year old boys is GUARANTEED to be a dangerous cocktail.
I grew up in a community where the abuse of prescription drugs was and is a huge problem (a medical center for a large outlying rural area) and Xanax in combination with alcohol or cocaine was the cause of the most insanely risky behavior I have ever seen. I tend to believe that it would have the same effect on ones risk analysis when combined with the testosterone levels of a silverback gorilla! :p

P.S. OJ did it! Another great example of preponderence of the evidence vs indisputable truth.