CCTI - New Requirement?

[BMCM Deane Smith]

ALL -

The CCTI thread has pretty much reached it's end, so I'm posing this question in a new thread.

I'm of the belief that the day you are "Pinned on" at the conclusion of the CCTI should be the first day that you have worn the anchors. In other words, E-6 above the cutoff for advancement to E-7 would go through the CCTI and would be frocked to E-7 upon completion. If the day they are pinned is the first time they have ever worn the anchor and from that day forward is the first time they are ever called "Chief", I think our chief corps would be a prouder, stronger group.

I do realize that this would mean that cutoffs might have to be done differently, but aren’t we to a point that we can accommodate this? I think so. Some E-7’s may slip through the cracks (i.e. late year cutoffs, etc) and not get to complete a CCTI prior to advancement, but the reality is that it shouldn’t affect that many. Almost all new E-7’s wait several months as it is. The MCPOCG has directed us to hold CCTI’s whenever needed, so why not get our E-6 above the cut done before they make it?

So, for arguments sake, let's say that there are no logistical issues. Let's just say that everything would work out with this process.

Do you think this new requirement would be in the interest of the Chief Corp? Do you think we would be a prouder Chief Corp? Or, do you think it would make no difference?

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I like the idea. I think that the look away and pinning ceremonies would have a greater impact and be much more memorable. I also think that the PCPOs would get more out of the experience than say the E-7, E-8, or E-9 that has worn the anchors for months if not years before their CCTI. I think that if the people who have had E-6s go through at their mess, would respond to your thread, they would tell you they made better PCPOs. I see many benefits and no real down side. If they are above the cut, meet the weight and other requirements, let them go through the CCTI and frock them that night. It could even be used as an incentive for those wondering if they were going to go through the CCTI......be initialed, be frocked.....don't and wait for your advancement. I think everyone involved would benefit.

[MCPO Bob Brayman]

You are talking about how the USN advances their new CPO's. In Sept, across the entire USN, all new CPO's above the cut are frocked or advanced. That particular day culminates a 1 month indoctrination, which is quite involved and each unit CMC/COB are charged with said indoctrination. Their initiation process isn't quite as fun as ours but they still go through it.

If that is what your thinking about...that would take a hefty change in how we do things. It would centralize the CCTI process which forces us to write it down AND then each units mess would be constrained to what the plan entails. By doing it this way we lose some control over our process. If you do that there is also the chance that the indoctrination is now dictated by WTT who controls curriculum developement. I can send you the USN CPO Indoctrination Guide which includes both the Boots Book and the REQUIRED lesson plans.

Now, does it have to go that route? Could we go to a once a year frocking? Could we get away with just doing it once a year and keep the powers to be out of the CCTI process? Those are all questions that only be answered by the MCPOCG. I'm not going to answer for him but that topic has come up before and shot down for the reasons listed above.

Be careful for what you wish for or speak outloud.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I would think that Deane's vision of things to come has legs. We usually adopt some form of Navy Policy a couple of years after they implement them. I'll be courious to see where this leads. The MCPOCG, the entity not the person, has been trying to regulate the CCTI and make it uniform across the board for years, to eliminate some of the problems that occured many years ago. I think change is inevitable. The process has changed drastically over the past ten years, and I believe for the better. As people have elluded to on other posts in this forum, more people are refusing to take part in the current process than ever before. Not to re-open old wounds, but maybe something needs to be done.
I think Deane, and apparently the USN may be on to something. Anyone else have thoughts on the matter.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott (Ret)]

Who shot the topic down? Seems like this is a area where as many Chiefs as possible should be in the discussion. No one asked me.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Dennis...You didn't answer the question that was posted. What do you think?

[BMCS Dennis Endicott (Ret)]

I think its a good idea. I'd like to look at the downside a little more, but as an initial evaluation, I'd give it two thumbs up.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

I am for a centralized CCTI "curriculum" in which we make the process more of a learning process and thus meaningful for the participants and their families. I have spoken to some Navy Chief friends of mine and they truly enjoyed the entire process. Getting up for PT, sitting through lessons on leadership and management and then finally, on Sept. 16 pinning on their Anchors, donning the khakis and Combo Cover and hearing the name Chief.

This may present some challenges, primarily manpower to run the curriculum. There also exists a possibility of too many people (HQ) being involved in the process. But I think it can be done if it is run through the E10's office. Perhaps it will show the junior enlisted personnel that there is much more to earning the title Chief than to score well on a test and aquire enough points to be above the cut.

I am for this if and only if, it will entice more PCPOs to engage in the process. Perhaps it will be a way for more people to be more engaged in their respective Chief's Mess.

I am currently sponsoring a member of the E-City Fall PCPO Class at my unit. The other day, he indicated that he didn't think he was going to get into it as much as he has.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Steve, I don't care if it entices more numbers or not. For the most part, the ones that don't want to go through won't go through no matter their paygrade. What I'm talking about is the betterment of the Chief's Corp. I'm not saying that E-7/8/9's don't get something out of the CCTI, they should. I just imagine that an E-6 would get so much more out of it.

Wouldn't we be a better Chief's Corp for it?


Think of it another way. How much sense would it make to initiate a group on the 378' that cross the equator...AFTER they return to homeport! It makes no sense. So, why is it OK to initiate our Chief's well after we have already welcomed them into the mess. It's not!

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Ah....I know I'm going to get jumped on for this one and I want to apologize to Deane for straying from the question he is posing....but I think that we may have lost the bubble when we reach the point where we need to "entice" PCPOs to go thru the CCTI.
Steve, I'm not trying to single you out here, I wrote something along the lines of incentive myself, and I know that you are only posting what other people are feeling and unwilling to express. But the CCTI is not designed to individually benefit those of us that have gone thru it before. It is there for the benefit of the PCPOs and the mess as a whole. Everything that is done is to make them better Chiefs and create a stronger mess.
For the people that think that there is nothing for them to gain by going thru it, they have deeper issues that should be addressed in one of the other threads. See arrogance where they ask if you have reached a point where you no longer have room to learn or grow.
Back to Deane, I would support any proposal that was designed to benefit the learning potential for the PCPOs and strengthen the mess.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

I was fortunate enough to have had only 6 weeks from the day I was advanced to E7 to the date of my CCTI. Maybe I was lucky enough to have caught the cycle of the DC Mess scheduling, I don't know.

If we run E6's above the cut and frock them after CCTI, I have no problem with that, however, we would still run into the issue of people just below the cut getting advanced when the cuts are re-calculated. Those peole would then have to wait through a cycle.

Maybe "entice" was not the correct way to word it in my previous post

Perhaps more like lead by example would be appropriate. If we make parts of the CCTI (such as a standardized PT program, mandatory leadership seminars, etc.) more visible, it will plant the seed in the minds of junior enlisted personnel to strive to get to the pinnacle of Chief in their careers. Don't get me wrong, there are definitly other means to show people how to strive to be better and to set the example in the way of leadership.

I make this observation simply based on what some people said on the other CCTI thread, they were not interested in participating if and when they reached that milestone, because of the things they saw and heard earlier in their careers.

I think that anything we do to make the experience better both for the PCPO, the Mess and the Coast Guard is not a bad thing.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott (Ret)]

Well, we're going to need some more discussion- especially from the CMC network who will decide this issue. I suggest that you all get as many CMC's to view and reply to this thread as possible.

MCPO Cantrell- how about it, Your Nineness?

[MCPO Bob Brayman]

Much of the stuff is already out there...just change the name and plug in CG specific stuff. It is already in an approved instructional systems design since us and the USN use the same system. I will find it tomorrow and if anyone wants to look at it, give me a holler via the global.

[BMC Ken Gouge]

Greetings,
I think the "P" in PCPO says it all. E-6 above the cut ARE prospective CPO's. Centralized control might be necessary for a mass conflag of initial above-the-cut-ers, but we should still have the latitude to have additional initiations as needed for the revised cut-off folks.
I also beleive that an E-6 going before the Honorable ones might be more receptive to the process, and not have the "arrogance" (see separate thread) around those of equal paygrade which would hinder the absorption of wisdom.

Ken

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Well said Ken.

As an E-6 PCPO there are a lot of unknowns that become known during this process. I can't say that for E-7/8/9 PCPO's. I've personally seen 2 E-6 PCPO's go through in the past year...they were by far the 2 best PCPO's I've seen.

Without getting into too much detail, The entire CCTI is based on someone NEVER wearing an anchor. It only makes sense to change our current process! The future of the CG Chief just might depend on it.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

I want to share a quick PCPO story.

We had our charge breakfast last Friday and had 5 perspective chiefs (4 E-7's and an E-8). All went pretty well, until Monday morning. One of the PCPO's turned her package back in to the COM and said that she wasn't going to go through it. She stated that she had other issues that needed to be addressed and she wouldn't be able to commit her full attention to a CCTI. She said that this wouldn't be fair to the other PCPO's and the chiefs who were organizing the CCTI. She also said that she had a problem with the wearing of her 1/2 & 1/2 collar devices. She told the COM that she was open to going through it at a later time. How many of you expect to see her at a later CCTI? She also spoke with an E-9 friend of hers who recommended she attend the CPO Academy first and see if she still felt the same way. What kind of advise is that?

I wonder how she would have felt if she had gone through an initiation or indoctrination prior to putting the anchors on? She's been wearing the anchors for quite some time now, she probably feels very comfortable.

I think that this is a perfect example of why we need to change the way we have our CCTI's.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Great story and representative of the reason why we should have one CCTI process for E6 above the cut and more of a Chief Indoctrination program.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I never attended the academy myself so I don't know what part of their program stresses the importance of the CCTI. I think that those people who need to look outside of themselves for a reason to go thru the initiation, are not going to find an answer anytime soon. And the longer they wear the anchor, the harder it will be to understand what the rest of us gained by going thru it, and the less that they themselves will gain when and if they finally do. The same 1/2 &1/2 collar device would be worn with pride by the E-6. They would be, generally speaking, more open to learn new things and old ways. It sad to me that any E-9 would tell anyone, anything other than, go thru it, apply yourself to it, and take everything away from it that you can.

[MKCS Jon Menze]

Small question to put out there. It seems to me that most of the people that do not want to go through CCTI have made up their mind a long time ago so how would this change that problem? I understand what is being asked but I am co-located on a Navy Base and what I see of their CCTI is more of an Indoc that what our CCTI is.
I think that the bigger problem to look at is why some choose not to go through it. There have been posting on this site that challenged those that do not want to go through to do so to tell the rest of us what is wrong with the system we have in place. It seems to me that even though they have been challenged, they are unwilling to take up the challenge. Why is that? What kind of statement is being made to the rest of the Mess?
I do like the idea of the E6's going through and being frocked but we first need to look at why the number of people not wanting to go through CCTI seems to be getting larger.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Jon,

That's a good question...not sure if anyone can answer that. If we were to go this new requirement, it might answer itself after a couple of years.

I think of it as a true Rite of Passage.

Currently it's a rite of passage, only if the new E-7's think of it that way (not all do). As an E-6, it can only be thought of as a rite of passage, they wouldn't have had an opportunity to wear the anchor for some time (months/years) and think about it.

Maybe I'm delusional, but I think this is a necessary move for the future of the Chief's Corp!

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Again, until the people that choose not to go thru start listing reasons why, we can only speculate, so here's my take. We have moved towards the minimum neccessary to get by attitude with many of our members and the CCTI is not mandatory. They don't "have to " do it and what penalty do they pay if they don't participate ? They are not any different from the other chiefs who look for any excuse not to attend a Chief's Call. Regardless of how much time they have invested in the CG, this is just another promotion in their part time job. And yes I said promotion, not advancement. If they ever desired to become a Chief, the reasons varied greatly from ours. That sense of service, sense of pride and sense of time honored traditions, was lost on them. They don't see those time honored traditions as important, or meaningful, they see them as silly wastes of their time. They don't want to look for a meaning, they're to busy justifing their excuses. They don't want to do anything that distracts them from their job, in which they do the minimum, no more. If I'm wrong about this and you know why, please let me know.
Until then...maybe we need to start looking at making more things mandatory ? I like the idea of the E-6s going thru and being frocked. I think the day would be very memorable for them.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I just finished up with a CCTI from a neighboring mess. A much smaller mess than mine which provided a more personal atmosphere. The PCPOs knew the members of the mess and I'm sure the three of them would tell you they all enjoyed the process. But again, a couple of other members who started the process dropped out, citing scheduling conflicts at the unit. I don't foresee a ship cutting back their hours in the years to come, so I don't think those E-7s will be back. The longer they wear the anchors.............Anyway, the deput commander found the time to spend the day and commented on the importance of the CCTI. Maybe if the unit commanders relayed that importance to their people and provided the time to the E-7s, the E-7s could spend that time and come up with better excuses.
Cliche time.....where there's a will, there's a way. The people that really wait to go thru it will find a way. Those that don't will always find an excuse.

[BMC John Phillips III]

Senior Chief,

I am not trying to excuse any of those people for dropping out, but I want to share this with you and other readers. I recently advanced to E7 and I was invited by the mess to participate in CCTI. I had already planned on going thru because all the good Chiefs I have worked with and many others strongly recommended it to me and I want to be a part of that. As you know I recently transferred and I had a Change of Command coupled with an RFO this month. When I first received the invite, I was worried that I might not be able to put my all into it. A good Chief advised me that with the COC and RFO being done by Oct 15, I would still have plenty of time to prepare for the tentative Nov 12 or 19th date. I felt more confident after hearing that and accepted the invite.

When I went to my very first Chiefs Call, I felt a great deal of pride to just be able to walk into the mess as a Chief. I meant as an E7, but the idea that I was there on my way to earning my right to be there. I have been in Chiefs Mess' before (mess cooking or whatever other reason) but I never felt comfortable or like I belonged there. Well now I do and I want to be welcome there. I will attend every Chiefs Call I can. The funny thing is, that day, the cutter got underway without me, so that I might attend.

I am not sure I really went anywhere with this post, just that I had reservations about not being able to give it my all. I do feel though had I not done it this time around it might have been even harder the next time around. So you are probably right about those others.

As far as frocking E6's and having them go thru, well I strongly disagree with that, but me not being as wise as the rest of you, I will wait until after I have gone all the way thru to make my final determination on the matter.

One more thing Sx3, I sent you some mail :)

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

JP3,
That's all we're asking. At the conclusion of your day, reflect back on all that was said and done, and let us know if you think that a change in the process would be more beneficial to the newly advanced and soon to be advanced/frocked. Wouldn't they get more out of it, wouldn't it be more meaningful to them, than say the E-7 thru E-9 that have already worn the anchors for months or years ? Wouldn't the first time they pinned on those anchors be so much more memorable ? And it's refreshing to see that your cutter still places that much importance on Chief's Call.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

John said...As far as frocking E6's and having them go thru, well I strongly disagree with that, but me not being as wise as the rest of you, I will wait until after I have gone all the way thru to make my final determination on the matter.

Just curious why you would strongly disagree with this? A frocked E-7 is no different than you...neither of you know the ways of a Chief. You talked about going into the mess for the first time as an E-7, what might that felt like if you had been initiated prior to pinning and walking through the doors as a Chief?

[PACS Steve Carleton]

For those of you following along on another website's discussion board. Someone brought up the issue of frocking.

The original poster posed the question of whether anyone would like to have the Coast Guard frock their E7's and others on a single day just like the Navy.

What interested me, was the fact that nearly all of those people against the policy of frocking said that they would rather see the $$$ commensurate with the new pay grade rather than wear the new insignia and not get paid for it.

What irritated me, was that the views tended to support the position that people are only looking at their pay checks and not really grasping or understanding the roles and responsibilities associated with wearing an anchor or new crows.

The posts never got into the issue of what it would mean for CCTI's. I will assume the reason is that people posting never considered a.) what the CCTI is about, or b.) never saw anyone around their units go through the process.

[MKCS Jon Menze]

Steve,
Never assume, you know what that does. I live in Navy housing, most of the Navy Chiefs that I know from there did not like the fact that they were not getting pay for the rank for upto a year after being frocked. If you don't think money has a little to do with it, I would say your wrong. How would you like it if you had to go to sea but didn't get sea pay for the first year? Of flight pay for being part of an aircrew? I did advance to Chief because I wanted the chance to make a difference and I wanted the pay.
To me, being frocked means nothing if you are not going to go through the process anyways. We need to figure out why more and more are bailing out of this tradition first and fix that problem. I guess I do not understand how frocking someone is going to make people more willing to go through the process. I also look at the fact that to frock someone you need the COMT's ok to do so which opens the door for the officers to have a say into this tradition. I don't want that to happen.
I will say this, I did not like having to wait as long as I did to go through. I got transferred in the middle of my first chance and just barely got into the second one because the local chapter kind of forgot about us. That chapter is over an hour away. I was aways going to do it, just when was the a question. I believe that we need to make the CO's and XO's understand how important it is. I have see people drop out this fall because the ship could not do with out that person for just one day. That is sad in my book.

Jon

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Jon said...I also look at the fact that to frock someone you need the COMT's ok to do so which opens the door for the officers to have a say into this tradition. I don't want that to happen.
and

I believe that we need to make the CO's and XO's understand how important it is. I have see people drop out this fall because the ship could not do with out that person for just one day. That is sad in my book.

You can't have it both ways. Either you want O's involved or not? I think we need the O's support not input with this tradition. If the COMDT was involved in this (which is what would happen) the O's would support it, they wouldn't have a choice. That's what we need!

As far as the pay, I must view it diffeent. I would have jumped at the chance to wear an anchor and go to an assignment as a chief vice staying in my E-6 job until I made it for pay. But, that's just me...I guess I view this whole thing as much more than pay, jobs, uniforms. It's about a tradition that's losing momentum. I think we need a change for the betterment of the chiefs!

[MKCS Jon Menze]

Deane,
First of all I would like to say I to have alway aspired to be a Chief one day. I would have taken the anchor before the pay raise but if no one believes that money didn't have some part in people advancing we would be fooling ourselves. I was just telling what I believe is to be true for the most part.
As for the traditions, I am very proud to be part of the Mess. I try to keep the traditions alive and well. Some of the things I have said in postings here about this subject is I believe that more and more people are not going through it and we need to figure out why. As for following the Navy in this tradition, I think it is a bad idea. I live in Navy housing. Everyone one that lives around me are Chiefs. Most of the ones that I talk with do not like their own system and very seldom go to them. It seems to me that the Navy has taken any fun out of it. As for th "O's", the biggest thing that I am afraid of is ending up with a complete instruction telling us how to run a CCTI from start to finish. The frocking is only a small thing and it does not bother me either way. In the end, like you, the traditions is the most important to me and a way to get those who don't want to take part to change their mind and see this as a valueable thing.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

And I'm not saying that we need to go to a complete Navy style of indoctrination, but we should do something.
As for the "reasons", or more accurately, the "excuses" that people have for not going thru the process ..? We will always have people who do the bare minimum, the very least that they can get away with. Chief's Calls themself are manditory, but does everyone actually go ? People can come up with any excuse that they want, but in the end, they just don't want to attend. Had it been for something that they really wanted they would stand up to their command and would have demanded the opportunity to attend. The COMDT mandated Chief's Call, and the Command endorses the CCTI. Make your command aware of that. Show me the JO who will stand up to a CAPT and say that they can't get the cutter underway for one day without the Chief on board. If the Chief died on the way into work that day would they decommission the ship ? Don't think so. If it's being done, it's because no one is holding that command accountable. No one is saying, "NO, it's my CCTI and I'm going to attend. My career and my future are bigger than my current assignment." In the end people are not going thru because they don't want to and they don't have to.
And it's not supposed to be easy....nothing worthwhile ever is.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

I agree that we should take a modified approach to what the Navy is doing. Having a CPO Indoctrination is a great idea, it's pipeline training for those that need it...New Chiefs.

Back to why E-7's decline to go through. I think it's different for everyone. I find it hard to imagine that "the days of old" are still why people choose not to participate, it's been a long time since then...I think the words out. I think people decline because they can. Anytime you give someone an option, they might decline.

Our PCPO that dropped out stated that she didn't want to go through because she wasn't going to be able to put 100% into it. She also doesn't participate in the mess, she has only been to a couple of chief's calls and those were ones that she had a stake in. She doesn't put 100% into the mess, why would she put 100% into the CCTI? But, what if she had gone through a CPO indoctrination prior to putting the anchor on? Would she have a higher participation rate? Who knows, but maybe if she knew more about the history/traditions of a chief (before becoming one) she would have a keener sense of it's importance. That's never a bad thing.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Senior,

I am in complete agreement with you, there are far too many excuses out there and there should be a serious look at adapting a similar program. Bring some of it out in the open and show junior enlisted, and officers that there is value in the indoctrination process. If they see the value, they may one day seek to reach the position of Chief, and officers, who one day will be the CO's and XO's will continue to endorse the process, because they see a value.

While I don't understand someone's decision to not participate in the CCTI, I respect that they are able to stand by their convictions (as misguided as I believe them to be) From what I have been able to ascertain from those who didn't participate in the CCTI, it appears to be a mix of fear of the unknown mixed with a little WIIFM (What's In It For Me?) That is why I suggested that we look at the Navy Program as a guide.

I am disgusted that the Consolidated Mess in this area doesn't hold a regular Chief's Call, except for CCTI's. It's probably a good idea that we don't because better than 2/3 of them wouldn't show up anyway (based on average CCTI attendance), so I guess that is a blessing in disguise. I was so disgusted at the lack of participation in the Spring CCTI, that I sent a rather long e-mail to the COTM here. I am still waiting for the Chief's Call!

Any fellow Chiefs in the E-City area, this is a challenge to you support CCTI's and Chief's Calls with your attendance!

Jon,
I don't claim to know what every Navy CPO thinks on the subject of frocking, I based my remarks on my discussions with Navy CPOs that I am friends with. I didn't get the same response that you do in your Navy Housing area. Just like we don't represent all the opinions of the Chief's Corps, they do not represent the entire opinion of the Navy Chief's Corps on that subject.

Time for me to step down off of my soapbox, take a deep breath, and relax.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Steve, well said!

I think it's time to kick this up a notch. I would be willing to sit on a study group on this issue. I think it's time to have a formal look at this process and make some recommendations to MCPOCG/COMDT.

Who's with me??

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Count me in on that study group!

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Add my name to that list.

[SKCM Linda Reid (Ret)]

I like the concept as stated by the OP ... the first wearing of anchors and being called "Chief" happening at the conclusion of the CCTI. However I have reservations about frocking E-6's and it's hard to envision how it all would work in practicality, given the advancement process in the CG. I think we would really have to fine-tune the CCTI process and make it extremely valuable in order to adopt this concept.

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

How about somthing like the Cadet's wear for a collar device for un-initiated Chiefs? An anchor without a shield? Not to demean the value of being an
E-7 or take away from the respect that they deserve, but it will still give them something to strive for. This may not be the solution and may have lots of reasons why it is not a good idea, but just an off the cuff thought.

Jim

[PACS Steve Carleton]

The only problem with the insignia idea is that it would have to go through the Uniform Board at HQ

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Well call me a bad person but I really like the idea about the insignia. And make the initiated people who can't seem to make the Chief's Call wear it also. Let's be able to identify the people who won't meet the minimum standard on sight. Either you're a Chief, or you're an E-7. Give the initiated Chiefs their anchors back next time they find the time to make the Chief's Call. Now that's accountability. It'll never happen, but let me dream. Jim, I like the way your mind works.

[BMC Mark Lewis]

I am currently going through the CCTI process and I would like to give you all my thoughts on this discussion. When I was an E-6 I thought about not going through with the CCTI when I was promoted to E-7. My reasoning at the time was because of what I saw of the CCTI at the time. All I saw was a bunch of E-7s being humilated. What changed my mind was going to a CCTI dinner where I got to see some of the traditions and the somberness of the advancement to Chief.

Society is changing and the persons that are going through the CCTI now are not the same as the persons before us or the same as the persons coming behind us. Maybe the Chiefs (I am not one yet) need to do a better job of showing or explaining the point behind the initiation, I am not saying show them or tell them everything. Maybe it is time to adjust things to meet the times.

As far as going through the CCTI prior to advancing to Chief, I think it is a great idea, so is the frocking. It may give the person more meaning and a more sense of being a "Real Chief".

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Mark...great post. Thanks for sharing your point of view, I wish more would!

Yes, everything that you have mentioned would be benefitted by E-6 going through the process. And, a CPO indoctrination course would teach all of these E-6 why it's important to the mess for all to be initiated.

[MSTCM Jerald Motyka]

Well, this is my first post here - and my first opportunity to tick everyone off and get booted from the board all in one fell swoop. :o

Why do we have CCTI? What is the purpose? What do we do to the uninitiated in the process?

I have asked everyone from non-rates to Master Chiefs to senior Captains - and have received basically the same answers. To network, to teach some history, to teach some humility, and to uphold the tradition. Not bad answers if you ask me. The problem is, in the search to be the best Chief a person can be, why aren't we doing this anyway?

First off, a couple weeks of humiliation is not going to instill a sense of humility on anyone - which leaves us with a couple of weeks of humiliation for no good reason - which is part of the definition of hazing.

Secondly, if I do my job to be the best Chief I can be, I will be networking with all of the Chiefs in my area - and throughout my rating, so I have a "safety net" in case I have a question I need answers for, and to help support them if they ever have similar questions that need answering. I am painfully aware that, while I know quite a bit, I do not know everything... so I NEED a corps of people to fall back upon and to support in the same manner. I approve of this. However, to FORCE me to do it seems like forcing me to wipe my own bottom... Thanks, but to do my job, I know that I have to do that myself, so why do we force new Chiefs to network and get little "words of wisdom"? We should be doing this already.

Third, the same thing goes for history, both of the USCG and the Chief's corps. We need to know where we came from to tell us where we are going.

And, finally, my favorite. The tradition. This tradition of what, exactly? All I can tell, after asking many dozens of people, is the tradition of keeping the tradition... of keeping the tradition. It can't be much of a tradition to have changed so radically a couple years ago. A tradition of doing points one through three? Hmmm, a tradition of doing what we should be doing already.

The have only received two answers that seem to answer this question: one given to me from a maverick LT who never went through it - we take part in a graduation ceremony as we graduate from school, and the CCTI fills that place; and the other is the tradition of joining the "boys club" so the other "REAL" chiefs (purposely un-capitalized) will like us. We have seen it on the two threads here from some who very happily say, "I ain't gonna help anyone who ain't initiated!!" Ohh, can you help me out with which Core Value this attitude supports?

I have spent my career trying to be the best I could be. I wanted to be the best non-rate I could be, and just before I think I did it, I went to A-school and got a crow. I then tried to be the best Third Class I could be, and before I could do master it, I was advanced. I tried to do the same as a Second and was advanced to First. I was getting pretty good as a First Class, the Commandant saw fit to advance me to Chief. It was no cabal of "REAL" chiefs, it was the Commandant. I saw an immediate change in how people treated me.

As a First Class, people would come to me as the "Go To" Guy, with the sincere HOPE that I had the answers. As a Chief, people come to me KNOWING that I have the answer. A subtle difference, but I see it on a daily basis. Thus far, I have not disappointed anyone. There have been a couple times when I have asked for a little time with an answer, and then I have used my networking contacts to get those answers.

Joining a club did not make me a Chief. It was an advancement from Commandant, a letter from the Master Chief Petty Officer of the Coast Guard, and my own sweat. I have every intention of being very active in the local Chief's mess and supporting the Corps, and that has nothing to do with joining a club.

If a junior Petty Officer wants to go through CCTI, I won't tell them that it is a good or bad idea, I will just tell them that it is a personal choice. I will also continue to offer words of wisdom when PCPOs ask for me to sign a Charge Sheet. Thus far, I have never been turned down.

Okay. There is my first post. For better or worse, I am an official member of the board. If someone can offer real reasons to go through CCTI, I will. Until that time, I will sit and admire my hat box (a tradition I can see the purpose of) and save the money involved. GAME ON!!! :rolleyes:

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Where to start where to start ?

You shouldn't be signing words of wisdom for a process you don't support and haven't gone through yourself. You should tell those PCPOs that you don't want to play, game over.

If you don't think that you still have something to learn about humility you may want to go back and reread your post. You are mocking a process that you know nothing about. You can't see that some people need this process. Some people need to be, as you see it, "forced" to start networking with other chiefs. They need to be "forced" to go out and start doing the things that you claim that you've been doing all along.

You claim that you are able to get all the answers. Humility time....why can't you answer the need for the CCTI question for yourself then ? If you had actually read the other two threads you could have responded to BMCS ENDICOTT's (purposely capitolized) challenge to go thru the CCTI and see if it changes your opinion. You could have sought out an answer. As it stands you look to people to assist you in the search for something that you cynically don't feel as though you need anyway. You look to the people who all share a bond, because they all went thru a similar ceremony, and shared similar experiences. They all proved their allegency and loyalty to their fellow chiefs by taking part in a proud tradition. A tradition that you scuff at, and which has changed, for the better, but its spirit has stayed in tack.

In your search for answers you also need to look up the definition of hazing, because I don't think that it means what you think it means. Victims of hazing know who they are and know what has been done to them.......find me one Chief who felt as though they were hazed during the COMDT, MCPOCG, Command supported voluntary CCTI process. Just one. I'll be waiting for your answer.

You have a lot to learn. You won't however, be able to learn anything until you're able to open your mind to other possibilites, something you could have learned, if you had gone thru the CCTI and listened, to people with more experience than you. As it stands, you are the reason for BMCS SMITH's (purposely capitolized) call to change the CCTI. E-7s/Chiefs like you, aren't willing to humble themselves to go thru a process that they see no value in.

You don't have to worry about being kicked out of this forum, or the Chief's Mess. Your rank entitles you be there and here. You're entitled to your opinion. You're not alone in it. You're speaking out for others that won't. Something else you could have learned had you gone thru the blah blah blah blah......In the end the CCTI doesn't make you a chief.....it makes you a better one. Its too bad that you're not allowing yourself to see that. You're selling yourself and the process short.

[MKCS Jon Menze]

Well said Stuart.

Jerald,
I can't believe that you are signing "Words Of Wisdom" for something you do not believe in. You don't believe in the traditions, well that is a tradition of the CCTI. You should not be doing that if you choose not to go through it. As for the networking, if you believe that networking is all about getting a question answered, your wrong. I have seen the "MESS" do some good things that only they could get done. I can either find the asnwer to most questions or know someone that can help me, but networking is all about things that you won't find in a book or manual somewhere. You stated you needed people to fall back on, well that is what the "Mess" is all about. It sounds to me like you want all benifets of the "Mess" but don't want to do any of the work to be apart of it. When I say the "Mess" I am not talking about a room on a ship either, Its a group that is there for each other no matter what. It seems to me that you asked a bunch of people that have no clue as to what being part of the "Mess" is all about or even the CCTI.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

There's just so many things wrong in his way of thinking. I happen to know for a fact that he has solicited the thoughts of at least one very knowledgeable, well respected, highly opinionated BMCS on that person's private, personal feelings about the CCTI. That person wrote a heart felt, well thought out response, which was in turn discarded so that Jerald could stick with the opinions of non-rates and JOs. What a raving endorsement from someone who claims to be so active in the Mess. I already see where his loyalties lie.

Jerald,
I'm not trying to get into the thought process involved here, but it appears to me that you aren't looking for reasons to go thru the CCTI, you're seeking justifcation on why you shouldn't. Asking a non-rate or maverick(?)/mustang JO what the CCTI is all about is like asking that freshly scrubbed duck what it feels like to be a pony. Ask those senior Captains if they still endorse the process at their unit, if they don't I can put you in touch with some that do. These pages are filled with subject matter specialists who have seen the entire CCTI process and all of us see the importance of it. But by all means, discard our informed point of view and only give crediblity to the views of those that support your excuses. Do you play poker ? Do you know what a tell is ? Stare at your hat box, and save your money, the unity of the Mess, purpose behind time honored traditions, knowledege and experience of your "fellow" Chiefs is lost on you.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott (Ret)]

Jerald,

Welcome to "The Chief's Call." I hope you continue to post and I look forward to debating and maybe even (sometimes) agreeing with you.

As to your post...

Your a hypocrite. You cannot contribute to a process which you ridicule and ignore for yourself, and play the role of an initiated chief to a PCPO. They haven't turned you down, because they don't know better. At the end of their intitiation they will resent your involvement.

Take my challenge. Go thru the process and then condemn it. I will add my voice to yours and back you up as a Chief that tried the process and found it wanting. You will be that unique voice that does not yet exist- an initiated Chief that finds no value in the CCTI.

Or, just continue to show your ignorance and lack of courage here. Your choice.

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

Jerald,
Tsk Tsk Tsk. You know, I had a somewhat similar although not as staunch opinion of the CCTI before I went through it. I thought I was a mature man and seasoned leader... I thought I knew my stuff pretty well and if I didn't know it, I knew where to go etc. Still do. However, I was fortuntate enough to have a MASTER CHIEF at my unit that encouraged me to go through the process and I did. Like EVERYTHING in life, you will get out of it exactly what you put into it. The mess went out of their way to have a special "look away" for me and a couple others that were "on the road" for the main one. This impressed me enought that they were willing to do that, that I decided to pive it my all. I learned some history and some tradition and some things that you would probobly consider trivial, but I also learned about how tight the mess really was. Yes, I joined the club as you like to call it. It was for me, a great experience full of history and tradition. Sure maybe some things have changed, but the principle has not changed. If I want to learn about Republican Politics, I don't ask a Democrat, and vice versa. If you want to speak ill of the CCTI, go through it first. Then you will have first hand experience with which to base your argument. And if you decide to give it a go... Give it everything you have, just like you have heretofore done.

[BMCS Nick Pupo]

Jerald; As Dennis wrote, welcome to the board. Now my first question, why do you feel that if you voice an opinon that may disagree with somebody else's you will get booted off the forum. I have yet to see that happen.

On to the meat and potatoes of your post. When you polled the non-rates on the CCTI they honestly gave you the answer that it would teach you humility? As for the Master Chief's and the senior Captains. I also did that and it seems I had the polar opposite response from the ones that I ask.

So how were you forced to participate in the CCTI. Its a choice, and its yours alone to make. Did somebody threaten you with harm if you didnt go thru the CCTI?

If a junior petty officer ask you if going thru the CCTI is a good idea. How can you speak on an issue that you have no experience in? You are giving advice without all the information possible. Take Dennis' challenge. Then answer the question with some insight.

This next portion may hurt a bit. But you may be better suited to go thru just to learn some humility and maybe some integrity. Based on your post, you seem to have little of both. If a PCPO comes to you and ask you to make an entry in her/his charge book. You do so without informing them you have never been initiated? Well if you so strongy believe in your actions you should have no problem telling them. They, should then pull the book back and say a polite thanks but no thanks. If you really want to give them advice, do so without making an entry.

But dont worry, the network you mention will take care of letting people know that you have not been initiated. So I doubt anymore PCPO's will be asking for words of wisdom from you.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Welcome to the board Jerald, you must really like to stir the pot otherwise you wouldn't have let that post go without re-reading it several times over and reading the other CCTI thread to get a feel of what reaction you would get here. Maybe that was your purpose, I don't know.

How is it that every one of our CCTI discussions comes right back to the basic question of "Do it, Don't do it?"

Since it wasn't clear on your previous post if you went through CCTI or not, based on your tirade, I will assume you have not. Respecting your right to your opinions on the subject, I must ask why would would you purposely "sabotage" and degrade the CCTI by providing Words of Wisdom to those who truly want to get something out of the process. I throw it back at you. What Core Values do you think you are displaying when you conduct yourself in such a manner?

Lets see, Honor -- Absolute integrity is our standard. A Coast Guardsman demonstrates honor in all things: never lying, cheating or stealing. We do the right thing because it is the right thing - all the time. -- No, that can be it, since you appear to be cheating a person out of their time. They could be seeking true Words of Wisdom from an initiated member, who has been through the process and sees value in it.

Maybe its Respect -- We value the dignity and worth of people: whether a stranded boater, an immigrant, or a fellow Coast Guardsman; we honor protect and assist. -- No, not that one either since you fail to respect the tradition that a PCPO (fellow Coast Guardsman) chooses to participate in. OK, maybe its the next one,

I'll give you benefit of the doubt, maybe you are showing your Devotion to Duty -- A Coast Guardsman is dedicated to the accomplishment of our missions. We are loyal and accountable to the public trust. We welcome responsibility. -- Well, you might have something with this one. But if I stretch it out, I might have to say que the buzzer, since you don't seem to welcome the responsibility to the process, the Mess and the Chief's Corps.

Perhaps my words are a bit harsh, I respect your right to your opinions however misguided they be on this particular subject and look forward to future debates with you on othert issues.

[SKCM Linda Reid (Ret)]

Jerald, appreciate your thought-provoking comments even if I don't agree with all.

Why do we force PCPO's to network and get words of wisdom? Well, I can only speak for Headquarters AKA "Cubeville". Plenty of anchor-wearing Coasties here that are content to confine themselves to their cubicles and never venture out for a CPOA meeting, a volunteer activity ... some not even for Chiefs Call. Forcing the PCPO's to go around and introduce themselves at least makes a small in-road to breaking down those strange 3-sided walls.

[MSTCM Jerald Motyka]

Thank you very much for the warm welcome - and not holding your tongues. :D It is greatly appreciated.

Now, I apologize for filling in much of my post with thoughts, and not actually writing it down... That is on me for being less than clear. Sorry.

I said that I offered words of wisdom to PCPOs - I didn't say that I signed/filled out charge sheets. I have offered advice when asked, and have been very up-front about telling these people that I have not gone through the official CCTI process. I would never mis-represent myself that way - as I have found that the die-hard "clubbers" are quick to black-ball someone. More on this later...

My queries to others have been over the course of the past dozen years, and NEVER "official". I asked my fellow non-rates about what they thought of the process. I asked my fellow Petty Officers about what they thought. I asked officers. I asked Chiefs, Senior Chiefs and Master Chiefs - both active and retired. I have never been able to get an answer as to "Why?" other than "Cuz!"... which is an answer I stopped accepting several decades ago. This is just about the only answer to any question I haven't been able to get answered through myself or my network of experts.

Senior Chief Endicott, how is my standing here like a lightning rod displaying a "lack of courage"?? One would think that drawing the ire of many people here would be respected rather than just caving in to public opinion and following the crowd and going through CCTI without having a real reason as to why. And, no, I refuse to accept "Cuz" as a reason. If you discuss the "tradition", then please tell me what the tradition is! The tradition of keeping the tradition going??

There are those who read here that wholeheartedly believe in the "if you ain't CCTI, you ain't snot" ideal. For that, you unfortunately help me prove my point. And, instead of coming to me directly, as some of you have, some are making this a very public situation. Please, either post here, or contact me directly. You will find that I am approachable, and my opinions are actually thought out - and that I don't make public pronouncements with only half the information needed.

For those who have gone off half cocked, I will be waiting patiently for apologies - and for those who have contacted me directly (both in support or opposition), I thank you very much.
__________________________________________________ _______

In my mind, being a Chief is a journey - and I am simply on my way to being remembered as a Chief... It is up to me to do what I can to see that they remember me as a good Chief, rather than a placeholder.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Just so everyone knows, I've already contacted the JAX Chief's Mess and I'm sure they will take appropriate action.

Due to operations at my unit, I don't have time to respond to this E-7's post the way that I want to.

The one thing I want to say is that I was one of the individuals that this E-7 contacted to get my perspective on going through the CCTI. At first, I felt kind of honored that he was asking me for my thoughts. Now that I've read his post, I'm completely offended. I spent nearly an hour responding to his email, because I believe in this process. I truelly believed that he wanted to hear what I had to say...I guess not. To have what I said to him discarded for the thoughts/opinions of non-rates & JO's is not a trait that I would want as a Chief & tells me everything I need to know about this E-7!

Jerald...You keep saying that no one has given you a reason as to why to go through the CCTI. Look back at the email I sent to you. I told you exactly WHY. You still may not want to go through and that's your decision to make, but don't say that no one has told you WHY. Also, your "Chief is a like a Journey" sounds really familiar to me. Hmm.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

This is a public forum. You posted your views on a public forum. You mocked a proud tradition in a public forum.
You talked about giving "words of widom" to "PCPOs" that give you a "Charge Sheet". Three CCTI phrases. Three phrases that should means nothing to you and you shouldn't use in this context. From your post we all understood that you were filling out charge sheets. All of us. Maybe you weren't being clear.
You want me to apologize ? I will. I'm sorry that you have poor reading comprehension. I'm sorry that you can't accept the numerous reasons that people have offered for going thru the CCTI. I'm sorry that you make public pronouncements when you pocess none of the information needed. I'm sorry that you just don't get it.
Drawing ire from people is not worthy of praise. Standing up for what you believe in is. I haven't seen anyone post and tell you to stop posting or to shut-up. Every one that I read thanked you for expressing a your differing opinion. What were you reading ? Your comments about "clubbers" a "boy's club" and the like are demeaning. If your purpose was to cause ire and strife, Congrats, mission accomplished. As for people who wouldn't help you because you aren't initiated, shame on them, they don't get it either. They're not doing their jobs as Chiefs. But Jerald, shame on you, for mocking a system that you know nothing about, care little to really learn about, and insult those that believe in it. And if you don't think that that's what you did, go back to your first post and re-read up to this point. Ask yourself, why the rest of us are so upset. You don't have to see the meaning in the CCTI. You don't have to take BMCS Endicott up on his challenge. You don't have to respect the views of others. But we don't have to hold our tongues or apologize, when you disrespect ours.

[MSTCM Jerald Motyka]

Senior Chief Slesh, there was no maybe... I was not being clear. I am sorry for that. Chiefs have come to me, identifying themselves as PCPOs, handing me a Charge Sheet and asking for Words of Wisdom. I have always identified myself as uninitiated and offered my own verbal knowledge, knowing that if I signed a Charge Sheet, they would catch heck from the Mess. I have never made a bone about this. The way I intially wrote it, I can easily understand why I was misconstrued... I was not clear.

My comments regarding the "club" attitude have been given much support with the tempest in a teapot this afternoon with the load of scathing e-mails I received at work. There are people telling me that they will never work with me, nor support me in any way, as I am uninitiated. There are people cutting and pasting my original post and forwarding it on !bang lists throughout the Mess networks... !bang lists I was kept completely unaware of as I chose not to go through CCTI. And you want to maintain that this isn't being conducted as a "club", especially when I have had people telling me that they not only won't play, that they are taking their bat and ball and going home?? And some of these people are frequent posters on here! Even Senior Chief Smith has whipped out the "E-7" card.

Regarding the "reasons" given to join sound hollow to me. Thus far I have received the following:
1. Cuz it is something that Chiefs do.
2. It is personal.
3. I always wanted to.

The last two are admirable things that I can't address, as they are completely personal. The first is what I have long sought an answer to. WHY is it something that Chiefs do? Oh, yes, to do those things that we should be doing already, and the most important reason... because we should.

Or, in the case of many of the posters here... because if you don't, we won't play with you.

Senior Chief Endicott, is it so hard to see why I am disillusioned and confused? And this "challenge" uses circular logic... to illustrate: I don't know if I should join the Church of the Almghty Leatherman. The members' advice is to join to see if I want to join. Ummm, isn't it too late to tell if it was a waste of time and money?

I would go through CCTI if there was a clear reason to do so - other than "Do it or you are blacklisted"... which is what is going on right now. I have had e-mails informing me that if I do end up changing my mind to NOT look up these certain individuals as they would not help me dig my "wn grave"(and that was a quote). I am just wondering if any of my clarifications of my position will make the e-mail trails like my first post...

Senior Chief Smith, yes, the "Chief is like a journey" is familiar - I recognize wisdom where I find it - and use it whenever I can. Unfortunately, your reasons were the same as I went over above... it is both personal and it something that we do.

Chief Carleton, I just went over my original post... and other than being WAY less than clear about the charge sheet/words of wisdom thing, I wouldn't change a thing. It is a bit strongly worded, but I do not see "ridicule" anywhere in there. Senior Chief Pupo, I knew that CCTI was a topic that was very close to some people's hearts, and I was full aware that even mentioning that I didn't see a reason for it... so I made a tongue-in-cheek comment about setting myself to get booted.

Oh, and for the board - with this reaction, is it any wonder why more people didn't come forward to say that they hadn't gone through?

For those of you who are dealing with me straight up, thank you for the welcome. For those of you who aren't... ohhh, nevermind.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott (Ret)]

Jerald,

I applaud your willingness to speak up in this forum. I hope you will continue to do so.

You obviously don't fear speaking your mind. You're comfortable with it, and I'm sure it gives you a certain satisfaction. That's as it should be. I like to think of myself in the same light.

When I decided to go thru the CCTI, I made a vow to quit as soon as anything occurred that contradicted my own values. That moment never came. It was a very enlightening process. You're not supposed to be aware of its details. You're supposed to trust us.

You decided to quit before you even got started. You fear a process you know nothing about. And, you don't trust the Chief's Mess to have your best interests at heart. You'll never reach your true potential as a Chief until you can overcome both your fear and your distrust.

You do lack courage. And, you will get black-balled. But, not like you think.

Our greatest strength in the Chief's Corps is our ability to network. But, I and my fellow Chief's will not seek your help, outside of your normal duties, when you show such disregard for us. And, outside of our normal duties, we will not make any extra effort to help you. Why would we? You've made it very clear that you have nothing to gain from us. That is the true meaning of being "black-balled."

Go thru the CCTI. If for no other reason, do it to prove us wrong. We need somebody that is willing to speak up and criticize the CCTI process (from an informed position). You could be that person. What do you say?

[BMCS Dennis Endicott (Ret)]

Just read your last post. I can't reimburse you for the "lost time," but I will reimburse you any money you spend during the CCTI process, if you decide it was a waste of time. All I ask, is that you give it a fair chance? Again, what do you say?

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Jerald...I've had some time to reflect on this issue. I've read back through all of the posts and I wish I knew why you sound so negative towards the CCTI. Maybe that isn't your intention, but that's how it comes across.

Here (again) is part of what I sent to you. It doesn't speak about (1) Cuz it is something that Chiefs do, (2) It is personal, or (3) I always wanted to. It speaks about why the CCTI is important to
the mess and your fellow Chief's. Please read this and let me know why this "Bond" is not important to you.

Let's start with the Chief's Mess, that's where the core of this comes from. The Chief's mess is an exclusive fellowship. The CCTI is the most important part of the mess, It's what ties all Chief's together in unity & spirit. The CCTI is the one thing that bonds us together. If we lose that, we lose the mess and we lose our function in the Coast Guard. I would argue that the best Chief's mess is one where all Chief's are Initiated, it forever bonds us as Chief's. And, whether people agree or not, an uninitiated Chief is not 100% a part of the mess. They can't participate in a great part of what the mess does - CCTI. So, the future of the mess & Coast Guard Chief's depend upon the CCTI.

[MSTCM Jerald Motyka]

Senior Chief Endicott, your comment that you were ready to bail when it got stupid speaks volumes. Thank you for your candor.

Senior Chief Smith, thanks for the vote of confidence. I guess I do sound negative, but it is in response to so many years of asking "Why" and usually getting half-thought out rhetoric.

Now, at the risk of just sounding like a petulant punk... the text from your e-mail can be boiled down to "Do it so you can do it to someone else."

Perhaps if I used another analogy... Imagine the Master Chief Corps having a large tattoo on their chest as part of their initiation. Then, when you ask why you need a tattoo to be a MCPO, they tell you "Do it so you can tattoo someone else!" Or that, "It is something that we do!" Or that you should get the tattoo to see if it was worth your while...

Now do you see why I sound frustrated?

I did read the wisdom in you e-mail, Senior Chief. You made some valid points, but nothing outside of what I think is ops normal for a Chief. Just because every Chief sticks his hand in a fire-ant mound does not mean that I want to to be part of the group... Yes, I see that everyone with the scars has shared something "special" but is it something that we should promote to our junior Chiefs?

I guess what I am looking for is a drop-dead reason to get involved in the CCTI other than, "Or we won't like you" (which I see already!), or "So you can initiate new guys!"

Sorry I am being obtuse. I note nobody has mentioned my observation as to it being no wonder why more non-CCTI'd people spoke up.

[MKCS Jon Menze]

Great posts Deane and Dennis.

Jerald,
You stated in one of your posts and I quote "I have every intention of being very active in the local Chief's mess and supporting the Corps, and that has nothing to do with joining a club." You state that you want to be part of the Mess and then you blast a part of it. You said that you will continue to give Words of Wisdom to those PCPO's that ask. That is wrong.You also talk about networking. If you think that networking is all about getting an answer to a question you are wrong. It is much more than that.

I commend you for your convictions however miss guide I believe them to be. I too have every strong convictions when it comes to the Chief's Mess and CCTI. You have made statements that have gone beyond what others have stated that have simaliar beliefs as you do. Did you really think that this wouldn't upset people? It really upset me. So I will tell you that I was one person that forwarded your word posted here to some others. This is a public forum isn't it? Did you honestly think that it would only stay on these pages? That the only people that would know are the people that make post here?You blasted the Mess by calling it the "boys club" but also stated that you want to be involved in it. That makes no sense to me. CCTI is a choice and I would not have had a big problem with your choice not to go through it but you made statements that are very upsetting to a lot of people including me. As for being blackballed, I agree with what BMCS Endicott said. As for looking for an apology, I will not apologize for my convicitions. Just ain't happening. Everyone here has looked for one for Blasting the Chief's Mess the way you did.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

Jerald,

As I stated in my previous posts regarding this topic, I respect your right and beliefs to not participate in the process. Please respect our rights and beliefs in the process that every one of the initiated members of this forum believe in.

I believe in the process, I believe that it is a journey, to me, the CCTI is part of that journey. The CCTI introduced me to people and resources through a common bond that is more than metal insignia on my collar and increase in my pay every two weeks.

One thing that seems to be a common and at times underlying theme in your posts is the issue of monetary costs, why? Another rather disturbing issue is your admission that you have asked non-rates, and junior officers about this. If you had asked me about a Chief's Initiation when I was an E2, I would have looked at you funny because I had not been exposed to one. Even later, when I witnessed PCPOs going around with Charge Books, etc. I still had no clue, so how could I really truly express a valid opinion on something I knew nothing about?

I will go on record as saying that I will engage in discussion with you in public on this forum for two reasons.

One, You may not be the only person here to disagree with me. Second, I am not one to hide on this or any other topic.

As I stated in my reply posting to you prior to this, every one of our discussions on the CCTI comes down to the question of, "Do it, don't do it?"

This particular thread was started to advance the idea of finding a means to make the process more attractive to members who choose not to go through, perhaps even open it up to those E6s above the cut and then frocking them.

So let me pose this to you, Senior Chief's Slesh, Smith and myself have all stated that we would like to sit on a study group to look at the CCTI and how to make it better (or more fulfilling). I would welcome you and your opinions to such a group to understand the position of someone who feels as strongly against the process as you do.

To steal from Bill O'Reilly, "What say you?"

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Jerald said...Now, at the risk of just sounding like a petulant punk... the text from your e-mail can be boiled down to "Do it so you can do it to someone else."

Perhaps if I used another analogy... Imagine the Master Chief Corps having a large tattoo on their chest as part of their initiation. Then, when you ask why you need a tattoo to be a MCPO, they tell you "Do it so you can tattoo someone else!" Or that, "It is something that we do!" Or that you should get the tattoo to see if it was worth your while...

Now do you see why I sound frustrated?

NO. I don't see why you are frustrated. What I said in my post & email is not what your saying above. You need to re-read what I wrote. Since I wrote it, I can tell you that the way you interpreted it is not the way it is meant. Maybe it could be written in an easier to understand format, but this is the best way I can explain it...and your interpretation is way off.

It isn't about doing it because we have all done it. It's about a bond within the mess. You can sit and put your own spin on it all day long...but your spin (on what I said) would still be wrong.

[BMCS Bill Gheen]

Going through CCTI develops a commonality that bonds us together as Chiefs. It has been in place for many years for that very reason. It teaches you to step out of your specialty and into a broader scope of leadership from what you get from your shop, ship, station, etc…

If we as chiefs fail, we do it as a whole. Not one single Chief can support the goals or tasks required in the Coast Guard. Not even the MCPOCG can do his job by himself. As a whole however, we not only support, we exceed what is tasked.

How can a Chief’s mess be expected to turn to the uninitiated for support? The mess can’t. The uninitiated have not (by choice) chosen to participate in the functionalities of a Chief’s mess. Through that choice alone, a signal is sent that as uninitiated, you are not willing to help your Brothers or Sisters in need. You have sent that signal by not supporting the whole.

As a Chief, you are entitled to have your voice heard in the mess, it may not necessarily be acted on in your favor, but it will be heard.

If you choose not to be initiated then so be it. That is your choice. You are missing out on a network that extends beyond your days in the Coast Guard.

I urge anyone that doesn’t want to be a Chief, to reconsider.

[MSTCM Jerald Motyka]

Chief Carleton, thanks for the words of support.

My first day in the Coast Guard after boot camp, I was witness to a PCPO walking around base Detroit in a diaper with a pacifier around his neck, asking for permission to board the USCGC Neah Bay and be led to the Honorable Chief's Mess. I began asking around then...

Everybody is aware of the idea of CCTI - even if the idea is WAY off.

I have never dipped below my pay grade more than one step to ask questions - and I have never dipped below that since I was granted the Anchor.

Since I stirred the pot with my first post, I have received several e-mails and calls from other non-initiates showing support, and thanking me for "taking the bullet for them" by presenting myself as a target for many peoples' ire... and brining up questions that they feel need to be asked.

There is one retired Chief/CWO in particular who has shown much support and, even though he was initiated in the "old school" manner, has given me several sparks of reason. If I change my mind and do end up going through, my decision will be based largely upon his input. Thanks S!!

Chief Menze, I would NEVER ask you to apologize for having convictions - I heartily applaud you for having them and for sharing them - even though I stand in contradiction to your beliefs.

I was just hoping that after all the e-mails that went through the system demonizing me for signing Charge Sheets, a correction e-mail could be sent as well, steering all these ticked off Chiefs and above in the right direction...

[BMCS Nick Pupo]

Jerald; can you explain this statement?

I have never dipped below my pay grade more than one step to ask questions - and I have never dipped below that since I was granted the Anchor.
Why do you refuse to ask a person who is one step below your paygrade a question? Is it because you are embarrassed? Maybe that proves one point of the CCTI you could use some humility.
I have never heard anyone say they were "granted" the anchor. I, along with most Chief's I've spoken to, believe we've earned ours.

By not participating in the CCTI, you are turning your back on a "vast storehouse of knowledge" that would other wise be available to you. I think that is one of the most important things about the CCTI. It increases what I like to refer to as our "Sphere of Influence"

[DCC Mitchell Penneau]

I have stated my feeling on this subject, and was not going to jump in and comment on the subject of CCTI again until now. There have been several posts that just go to prove my point about my feelings, and the mind set "that if you did not do the CCTI, your not a REAL chief" how wrong that mind set is. It is not the CCTI that makes one a chief, it is the person that makes the chief.

BMC Gheen Stated-How can a Chief’s mess be expected to turn to the uninitiated for support?
How can thy not, there is no difference between the initiated and the uninitiated, both are chiefs, both hold the same pay grade and both have opinions and knowledge that is valid, unless it is club rules and only those that have partaken are allowed to be heard.
I did not partake in the CCTI, and will not, but you know what??? When someone retires or needs a flag case or any such thing who is the first person they go to, and even though several other “chiefs” openly let there feelings known about me and my decision, these are the very same ones that are asking for a retirement shadow box or some such thing, and you know what I still gladly make them because I am not so petty as to play the same game they do.

Networking…I have been in the Coast Guard a long time and you know I have never had a problem networking, I know a great many people and so I have a bi9g network, as would anyone that has been around for a while, or is it that you can only have a network once you have gone through CCTI????

I have talked to several so called PCPOs and I never tell them what they should do, I only talk about it if asked to or if my opinions is wanted, but on the other hand I never hid my decision, I have told each and every newly reporting Chief that I did not attend, why hide it I made my choice.

I have to agree with Jerald, what’s the point? Not one person has bee able to answer that one question.
Tradition?? It is not what is the tradition based on? Or is it a tradition for the sake of tradition?
Because guess what people the rank of Chief Petty Office is not even 100 years old, the Chief was instituted in 1920.
OK next what is commonly known as CCTI was once called a welcoming to the mess (my source on this is my uncle BMCM USN RET) my uncle joined the UNS in January 1941, and served 4 years on the same ship in the Pacific theater of operations. During this time his ship was involved in many actions and during the last operation of his ship it was hit and sunk by a kamikaze aircraft. He did not retire until July 1973 and I talked to him about this long and hard, his advice forget about it, as it is now it has little meaning.
What he told me, the way it use to be once a person made Chief the night before he moved out of SPO quarters and into the mess, where for that one night he polished there boots and so on, that night during the evening meal each of the “old Chiefs” would hand out words of wisdom, there was no dressing up, singing or dancing or any such foolishness. This man decided to turn his back on the whole process once all these things got started, in his opinion it had lost it’s meaning. The opinion of this man is one that I have valued above all when it comes down to advice about things such as this, and it was based mostly on his opinions I made my decision on. I am not embarrassed about my decision nor do I regret it one bit. I have no problem whit my decision and to anyone that has a problem with it, sorry but to bad, live with it.

I have and never will answer to the title of E-7, I am a Chief Petty Office in the United States Coast Guard, I was appointed to this grade because of hard work and dedication to the Country and the Coast Guard, and not partaking in CCTI makes me no less of a Chief that any of you out there.

[BMCM Deane Smith]

Mitchell,

This thread has kind of gotten off the original discussion point.

When you find the time, go back and read the first post in this thread and tell me if you would be for a CCTI the way it is proposed there.

[MKCS Jon Menze]

Mitch,
I have seen you make posts on this subject before and seen people try to change your mind. I have been one of them. It is fine that you choice not to go through. I think no more or no less of you.

I guess all I will offer you is that you do not know what goes on with us. Your view to this matter is pretty well set so I will not try to sway you our way. As for the CPO rank not even being 100 yoa, that is only in the Coast Guard. The navy has had that rank for over 100 years. the Coast Guard took longer to adopt it. All things change over time and what it has developed into in my opinion is a very good thing. I am sorry that you do not see the good in the fellowship that the initiated chiefs see.

[PAC Darrell Wilson (Ret)]

I have been reading these forums for a long time now without posting, just absorbing some of the things you all write about. Some threads have caused me to laugh and others have caused me to scratch my head in amazement. This thread prompted me to respond. Chief Motyka, I am an initiated Chief and I want to tell you that your comments do not offend me. I want to hear all comments about CCTI, good, bad or indifferent. I think it is too bad that some people feel the need to e-mail threatening or negative things to you or about you to your local mess. Advancing to Chief is the biggest step for an enlisted person. There should be some sort of learning process that goes along with the anchors to help us be the best Chief possible. I just don't feel the current CCTI process is the answer. I am not saying its bad, I just think it could be better. One thing I would like to say, I don't care if your initiated or not, I treat all Chiefs the same. You will never hear me ask if someone is initiated or not, to me, that's not important. It is important to me that you be the best Chief possible for your people and for the Coast Guard.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

I'm just going to make a couple of points before I start a new thread about black-balling and try to turn this discussion back to Deane's original point.

Jerald, only seek answers for any topic from a person who has experience enough to give you pertinent information. Be they E-1s or O-9s, if they have knowledge, humble yourself and seek it.
I still think that you are refusing to accept valid reasons because you simply don't want to go through the process. And that's your right.
The people that are privately threatening you are cowards and should be exposed as such. Don't confuse them with Chiefs. People that won't help a fellow Coastie are not Chiefs, reguardless of their rank or how many CCTIs they have attended.
Are you still looking for a reason ? I'll give you one. Since you brought the money issue up, and Dennis has been kind enough to promise to reimburse your possible losses, I will match his offer. Go thru the CCTI, apply yourself to the process, and if you find no merit in what you did, I will sent you a check, your cash if you don't trust me, to cover your expenses. I do this without reservation. I feel so strongly in this process, that I have no fear of ever having to pay you. On a strong mess this process is great, on a weak one it's still decent, and a valueable learning experience to anyone who applies themself . No one to date has taken Dennis up on his challenge. Ask yourself why that is. Why are they afraid to prove him wrong ? You could be the first. You could help us change a process as a person who has experienced it and still sees no use for it. It's a win win situation for you. And Jerald, if you pay attention during the process, all of our passion will make sense. The CCTI makes stronger Chiefs and A stronger Chief's Mess. Oh look, two more valid reasons. It's not a scarring experience, it's an enlightening one. It will explain the origins and neccessity of the mess, the fellowship and responsibilies of the Chiefs, and the reasons behind the things that you see as hazing. All you have to do is apply yourself and listen.

Now let's get back to Deane's original question.

[MSTCM Jerald Motyka]

Thank you all for the input - you have given much to mull over.

Sorry about taking this so far afield...

I (are you ready for this one??) think that Senior Chief Smith's idea for the CCTI/frocking is a GOOD idea. (Jebus H. Christmas, where did that come from??)

In this case, the Mess WOULD be a part of dispensing the Anchors to all of the new baby-Chiefs. Yes, they would get "screwed" out of some pay until the advancement list catches up with the frocking, but the increased time of "being" a Chief would more than outweigh the negatives.

My argument made earlier was partially because the Mess has no part of the advancement process, it is "tacked on" at the end. However, with SCPO's idea, the Mess would be right there from the beginning.

However - I don't think there is a chance in Louisiana that the Officer Corps would buy off on the wholesale frocking of the Chiefs' Corps. When asked, I would back this one until after my long retired voice fades into the distance.

[BMC Ken Gouge]

Jerald,

You still aren't "getting" it. If you haven't noticed in other posts I am not afraid to stir the pot. The challenge for you to participate in the CCTI is not a threat. Your analogies (like the tattoo) do not closely match the situation at hand. You will not be scarred for life... But you don't know that. I would make the analogy of getting someone elses opinion on a movie. They may love or hate the movie, but you should still see it before recommending it to someone else.

Your opinion as an E-7/Chief matters if it is on a topic which you are well versed. Your un-informed opinion on anything has no consequence and should be taken at face value.

I just wanted to point out that a few of your points lack reason, wisdom and/or really made my blood boil.

Everybody is aware of the idea of CCTI - even if the idea is WAY off.. How do you know???


"Yes, they would get "screwed" out of some pay until the advancement list catches up with the frocking," No, if they weren't going to advance until a certain date anyway they lose nothing.

I have never dipped below my pay grade more than one step to ask questions - and I have never dipped below that since I was granted the Anchor.. Silly at best. If you have ever in your life been the new guy at a unit and have not learned anything or sought answers from the Leading Seaman, or other like person who has their thumb on the pulse of how things actually get done at the deckplates you have and will stay behind the learning curve.

I respect your choice not to participate in the CCTI. I do not respect your un-informed opinion on the process. I will add my $$$ to the "re-imburse Jerald" fund so I may hear your informed opinion afterwards. I also welcome your opinion on other topics in this forum that are not CCTI related, the more opinions and ideas the better.

Ken

[PACS Steve Carleton]

First, I would like to say welcome to another PAC (Thanks Darrell, it has been a bit lonely out here representing the PAs)

Jerald,
I have noticed that you are starting to see where this thread was intended to go. You are stating that if we look at the process and find ways to make it more, you see that as a good thing.

For those interested, I will e-mail off of the board and we can really determine if we want to take on the extracurricular task of setting up a study group. I don't expect everyone here to participate but if you are interested we can establish this group on our own time to work toward analyzing, finding alternatives and advancing a study to the E10's office.

[BMCM Stuart S. Slesh]

Steve, I'm on the global and I'd love to give my informed input.

[PACS Steve Carleton]

It appears that we are on our way to study the issue of CCTI, its purpose, its history, look at viable alternatives to the current process, and find ways to make the process more attractive to people to want to participate.

Thus far the study group consists of three people. If anyone else would like to be a part of this, e-mail me, I'm in the global. I will act as a data collection point for input. This study group, like all other things will only be as good as the input it receives.

At this point, I would like to get information about the current CCTI process at a sampling of Mess' around the Coast Guard. Please try to follow the format below.

How big is the Mess?
How many candidates have you had during the last CCTI?
How many candidates were from your unit?
Is your Mess shore based or afloat?
Is your Mess consolidated with other units within a specific geographical area?
If so, how many units are there in the consolidated area?
Is your Mess colocated in the vicinity of a Navy Mess?
Have you ever attended a Navy CPO Initiation?

At the end, of answering the above information, you can add your anecdotal information and specific thoughts about howthe CCTI is currently run. If anyone has detailed working documents that may help me to understand the Navy process if you could forward that to me under seperate cover, I would appreciate it.

Right now, we have not developed any type of scientific based survey, this may happen at a later date. The group will use this board to present further questions and solicit thoughts and feedback.

[BMCS Jim Madsen]

Steve,
Count me in. I'll send you some thoughts "off line".
Jerald,
As I said before, you will get out of the CCTI, the Mess, and anything else you do in life exactly what you put into it. If you take an attitude that it is a waste of your valuable time and $$$, then it probobly will be. If however, you try to learn something, are objective, pay attention, humble yourself... Then maybe, just maybe, you will actually see the value in the process. At least you will have a better understanding of the process and why things are done the way they are done, and the trust and comaradare that is developed between those of us that have been initiated.

[PAC Darrell Wilson (Ret)]

Steve, thanks for the welcome. One of the earlier posts mentioned a different collar device for the uninitiated, that's not a new concept. I first joined the Army in Aug. '85. They had two different ranks from E-4 on up. It had to deal with whether you were a leader or a worker. Your pay and benefits were the same, you just had a different title. For instance, an E-7 could either be a Sergeant First Class(a leader) or a Specialist 7 (a worker). The Army has since done away with it because once you reach E-4 you start going to leadership training. As you move up, you go to more advanced leadership training, and you don't have a choice.

I am newly initiated. I took the challenge of put up or shut up. I have some very strong thoughts about CCTI and want to be invloved in changing it. From the day I joined the Coast Guard, I stated loud and proud to everyone that I would never participate in CCTI. My wife 'bout had a heart attack when I came home and said I was going to do it. I have been compiling some thoughts to forward up the chain about CCTI.

[MKCS Jon Menze]

Darrell,
I am glad to see that someone, who at first, wanted nothing to do with the CCTI go through it. I know that you believe that there are thing in it that should be change but I have some questions for you.

1) Was it as bad as you thought it would be?

2) Was it out right degrading to you?

3) Was it worth doing?

4) Now that you have the insight, if you went back and had to make this decision again, would you choose to go through or not?

Thanks

[PAC Darrell Wilson (Ret)]

Jon, thanks for asking. I have already had a long talk with PAC Carleton about this and I plan to assist him and the others in whatever they want to do to make this a better thing.
Here are your answers.

1) No, it was not bad. I didn't expect it to be bad. Ten of us went through it. I will tell you all that there were not really any surprises. If you have been in long enough to make Chief, you know most of what goes on during CCTI.
2) No, it was not degrading at all.
3) I would say yes because it was fun.
4) I would probably do it again because the 10 of us had a lot of fun. All of us had 4 or 5 service stripes on our sleeves. There were no young'uns. We were a rebellious group.

I don't feel that the current CCTI program makes or breaks a Chief. I don't feel that the current program is the best thing we can come up with. If you have not learned to be humble by the time you earn that anchor, CCTI will not teach it to you in a few days. I do feel there needs to be a learning/teaching process that goes along with making Chief, I just don't think it needs to be any type of initiation. It should be some type of indoctrination or rite of passage. I think someone who has worn anchors for awhile should be a mentor for a new Chief.

I would like to state for the record that these are just my views and are not an attack on anyone or the system. I am very grateful to the "Chiefs" that went to the trouble to conduct our CCTI. I expressed most of these thoughts at our debrief after CCTI was over. I think CCTI is a small remnant of something that used to be much larger and is now possibly outdated.

[MKCS Jon Menze]

Darrell,
Thank you very much for an honest answer. The reason I asked those questions is because you stated that you had not wanted to go through and changed your mind. We have tried to tell people that the things that happened when a lot of us came in the service do not happen any more. I believe that the system we have is a good system but I do agree that it could be better. I believe that the Mess should have a meeting after every one just to see how we could tweek it to make it better.

Again I would like to thank you. Just maybe some people that will see that you had hesitation about it but found good in it. May be that will help more to decide to go through it.

[FSC LANCE HOLVOET]

Jerald,
I have watched this thread for a little while, and I have not chimed in. But here goes.

"I would never mis-represent myself that way "

Signing charge sheets and making yourself a hatbox? Seems like a pretty good misrepresentation to me. Sounds like you want all the trappings that go with being initiated but not the process that you have to go through to get it.
Thats kind of like the commercial where the actor says "No I'm not a doctor but I play one on TV."

Are you the same Jerald Motyka that had a little alleged misrepresentation problem on the Army Infantry "sniper" thread on Military.com earlier this year that resulted in such a controversy they pulled the thread? And the article to which they referred "Heroes in Our Midst" was pulled off the internet too (only if you don't know how to find it). If I remember correctly our Army brethren were fairly upset.It certainly did not do our CHIEFS Corps any favors in the eyes of our sister service. I don't know the results of it, but if that is the case you seem to have a track record of trying to be something you are not. In which case either go through CCTI or not. You already made us look bad on the Army board don't come on ours and trash a process you apparently don't believe in. If you are the hero you portray yourself to be to a bunch of High School kids CCTI should be no big deal. As it said in the article:

"Indeed combat can be mentally grueling" "

He saw an Iraqi abut 4 ft away from him during a sneak operation. Mr Motyka had his weapon around his back and remembered his military tactics and took the man down

Certainly if you can go through something like that our CCTI should be nothing.

[MSTCM Jerald Motyka]

Chief Holvoet, kindly re-read above where I said several times, very clearly, that I did NOT sign charge sheets, and that I WOULDN'T do that.

Nobody but my beloved bride has seen my hat box. I made it because I have seen other Chief's boxes, and I thought that the display of the cover was a good tradition to continue. Again - nobody has ever seen it.

Yes, I was the target of some rather nasty accusations on Mil.com - but the "investigation", if you can call it that, was done in less than thirty minutes, and everything in my record was verified. You will also note that the very few that went off the handle on Mil.com have since departed... hmmmm, I wonder if there was a connection?

It is kind of like on here - someone took something out of context and ran with it - and when presented with clarifying information, the info was ignored (hence your continuing the idea that I was signing Charge Sheets...). Unlike there, I have been afforded the opportunity to explain rather than be banned while on TAD and unable to post (thanks for this opportunity Senior Chiefs!!).

Those highschool kids asked questions of people who were in combat zones. I spoke of what I had seen, and what my buddies had seen. The kids acted like the regular media and heard what they wanted to, and then wrote down what they wanted to - whether it was what I said or not. If that page is down, it is because it has been three or four years since I spoke to them, and they interview annually - and remove old projects. No surprise there - and no indication of anything else.

[FSC LANCE HOLVOET]

Jerald,
I will not get into a "he said, they said" here. I'm sure only yourself and the big guy upstairs know the truth about your Army service. Whatever that may or may not entail. As far as the article goes, if that wasn't the most political dodge since the campaign of recent months I don't know what is.

Here is the way I look at it. Whether you actually put something down on paper as Words of Wisdom or not, well then it becomes a matter of semantics in my mind. Now it is an integrity issue. These PCPO's are coming to you on the premise that you have gone through the same process that they are currently going through and that you have that bond to share with them. YOU DO NOT.

On the subject of your "hat box". In response to your post. I'm probably wrong here but I just picture it sitting your house with you staring at it. I have to tell you. Well thats just sad. You can put your cover in it but its still empty.

We (The Cape Cod Area Chiefs Mess) initiated 10 new CHIEFS on this past Friday. We brought 10 new brothers into the fold. This is not some stupid secret society with a secret handshake and decoder ring. It IS a Brotherhood which this mess (which I believe is one of the finest in the country right now)has answered the call to over a few tough times this past year and has come out stronger and more cohesive than it was before. The reason is the subject that we are indeed speaking of.

Yes you can put that anchor on and make a hat box and you can even give out words of wisdom. But in the eyes of the mess you will always be the outsider,the red headed step child if you will. And yes as fellow CPO's we will interact with you if needed in professional matters and those we are bound by the constraints of the UCMJ and Commandants Instruction. But that is where it ends. That is where the brotherhood part begins.

And this is where I end on this subject. I will use a phrase from the first brotherhood I was initiated into, The United States Marine Corps. "Maybe You Can Be One of Us". If not I'll use one from your former service "An Army of One"

Notice the difference?

[ETC Cannon]

I won't go into the why's and why not's of the CCTI but I can tell you this, it was a great experience. I am one of the 10 people that went through the Cape Cod Chiefs Mess CCTI and other than meeting almost everyone in the area I have 9 brothers that will drop what they are doing to give me a hand. For those that have not gone through the experience and complain that there is no valid reason for you don't feel this way because you didn't drive around your area with your fellow PCPO's meeting your soon to be brothers or help each other out building a box or getting stuff you needed together. The actual CCTI is just a little part of the whole process yet it's the most debated. Now after the CCTI I KNOW that brotherhood has extended beyond those 9 other PCPO's. That in it self makes the whole process worth it to me.

[BMCS Nick Pupo]

CHIEF Cannon, glad you enjoyed the experience and welcome to the Brother/Sister-hood.

[BMC Matthew James]

I know we are off topic... but, my fellings are as follows:

I was hesitant to participate in CCTI at first. I had no real reasons for resisting it... I am just of that generation that asks "why" too often. Having participated in a military initiation process in college, I was wary of possibly being humiliated as I had been before (an Officer Program too, I might add.). But, I also went in with the attitude of sticking around until something conflicted with my values. Now that I have completed the process, I can report on the following lessons learned:

1. Time management. I am OPS at a busy station. During CCTI I was still standing port and starboard duty due to our operational schedule and shortage of qualified coxswains/OOD's. My wife works and I have daughter in pre-school. In other words, I was damn busy, as were all of my fellow PCPO's and CPO's. Early in the process, I was making lame excuses for why I couldn't get things done. That was when I started to understand the value of CCTI. "A real Chief has a program. An E-7 makes excuses." Participation in CCTI brings with it extra duties and tasking in addition to your usual assigment. A good Chief is pulled in many different directions but still meets the needs of his/her superiors and subordinates.

2. Respect for Tradition. As taken from the Creed of the Coast Guardsman: "I revere that long line of expert seamen who by their devotion to duty and sacrifice of self have made it possible for me to be a member of service honored and respected, in peaceand in war, throughout the world." Doesn't "reverence" for our past mean we should follow in the footsteps of the Chief's that came before us? What makes me so special that I shouldn't participate in CCTI? E-7 Motyka stated that he built himself a hat box. Does he know the history and meaning of that box...or is it simply a decoration for his "I love ME wall"?

3. Finally, Humility. "Deck Plate Leadership" is all about remembering where you came from. Remeber how much it sucked to do busy work on a hot summer afternoon? Remember your confusion when the command would change tasking last-minute with no explanation? Those feeling are probably not too fresh in the minds of many PCPO's, that is mechanism behind many of the "humiliating " tasks.

At no point during my CCTI were my values compromised. To the contary, my values were reinforced...Dedication to purpose, Respect for my peers, Devotion to the core values. As a matter of fact, now that the process is finished, I wish I had put more effort into my CCTI (maybe buy better booze) than I did.

To take my point one step further...I will have a difficult time respecting an E-7 who opts out of CCTI for this reason:

Who is any E-7 to think he or she is above this tradition? Men and women much more accomplished than I have elected to participate. I you don't think there is any vlaue in the process...GO THROUGH IT YOURSELF AND THEN MAKE CHANGES.

[BMCS Dennis Endicott (Ret)]

Well said, Matt.

[MKC Brian Dishong]

Okay! no need to bring in the red headed step children into this, anyways I just went throught the CCTI on 5 November with my shipmate Dave Shuart, It was an awesome experience that I will never forget. I was able to bring my family to the dinner and expose them to something that made them understand what it meant to me being a chief and it answered question for my family why I chose to go through it. I would like to say however the CCTI is as only as successful as the mess, I know that at the Looking away we only had a few chiefs show up. If we want to set a good example for the upcoming E-7's I believe alot more participation is needed. For those of you who complain about not going through shame on you. I can say this because the experience is still fresh in my mind. All I can ask is why not. One day out of your life to learn some humility come on some of you are writing and saying that one day is not going to make you a better chief well all I can say is it is a start. When I looked out in the crowd of Chiefs at my CCTI I saw many years of experience that I can call on when I need it. So E-7's quit your whining and doit.

[ITC Jon Rigsby]

okay, time for me to chime in (Hi, Steve C...call me at work tomorrow - business related)....

Anyhow, as to the original thread: The concept of "universal-CCTI" is intriguing, but has a few "issues" that must be looked at:

1. What do ya do for the E-7's that are already advanced prior to the initiation? For example, one of my closest friends at my last unit was also my ATCIC. Wrote fairly well on the SWE and was advanced 1 Sep instead of (at earliest) 1 Jan the following year.
2. What do ya do for the E-7 who isn't above the cut, but gets advanced anyway?
3. Someone early in this thread mentioned an indoc and leadership regime (along with PT)...it struck me then that it sounded a bit like the CPO Academy...hmmm, homegrown CPO academy? Would this replace the CPOa or augment it? (personally, I vote for replace, as you are not away from your unit/family for an extended period of time...so the dollar(s) spent on you are not wasted (hmmm, poor choice of word?) while you learn. This would change the role of the "sponsor" into that of "mentor". One on one learning about what it is that you are stepping into...

As a note to item three, if the CPOa were replaced by INDOC, you'd kinda "Have to" go thru to get that checkmark...not that I'm advocating "forcing" or "enticing" anyone...

As far as the direction the thread has taken since, well, suffice it to say that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him/her drink. If you want to play at being a chief...we, the CHIEFS, know the difference.

One last comment. I hear a lot about how PCPOs can't make the time, or their unit won't exist without them there...I was advanced at Yorktown, and transferred away BEFORE my initiation took place. I CHOSE to go thru at Yorktown, even though it was over a three HOUR drive just to get there! Did that mean something to me? Sure, you bet. If it was important enough to me to drive over 6 hours round trip (most often for a single day event), I find it less than laudable if you can't walk halfway across a single base to show up. Find it in yourself to encourage your subordinates to "cover" for you, workwise, workwise, while you are gone. Let your command know, in no uncertain terms, that this is for the good of the service and the command. Learning to be a better CHIEF from the professionals (your mess), is of great value to your command...let them know!

Jon

[BMCM Wray Gillette (Ret)]

but I think that we may have lost the bubble when we reach the point where we need to "entice" PCPOs to go thru the CCTI.

Stu, that happened many years ago....

Wray.. :cool: